Is this possible? That would essentially make the LW classes one model races. I got the specs below from Triumphs website. At 363 lbs and 123 HP, with fully adjustable suspension that will make it extremely hard for even the most talented riders on SVs to be competitive. I am not complaining, but it seems as though that bike may fit in better in the MW classes. Later - Johnny ???
Wheels Front Alloy 5-spoke, 17 x 3.5in
Rear Alloy 5-spoke, 17 x 5.5in
Tyres Front 120/70 ZR 17
Rear 180/55 ZR 17
Suspension Front 41mm USD forks with adjustable preload, rebound and compression damping
Rear Monoshock with piggy back reservoir adjustable for preload, rebound and compression damping
Brakes Front Twin 308mm floating discs, 4 piston radial calipers with radial master cylinder
Rear Single 220mm disc, single piston caliper
Length 2010mm (79.1in)
Width (Handlebars) 673mm (26.5in)
Height 1109mm (43.7in)
Seat Height 825mm (32.5in)
Wheelbase 1392mm (54.8in)
Rake/Trail 23.5º/86.8mm
Weight (Dry) 165kg (363lbs)
Fuel Tank Capacity 17.4 litres (4.6 gal US)
Maximum Power 125PS (123bhp) at 12,500 rpm
Maximum Torque 72Nm (53ft.lbf) at 11,750 rpm
Price £7,199.00 "on the road" retail
I'm pretty sure it fits into MW not LW. Where did you get the idea for LW?
I was looking at this;
How To Get Started in Racing Under CCS (New Rider Mailer)
http://www.ccsracing.us/forms/2006/2006%20New%20Racer%20Pkg.pdf
and it shows;
* LIGHTWEIGHT SUPERSPORT
Three cylinder, liquid cooled, up to 675cc
* LIGHTWEIGHT SUPERBIKE
Three cylinder, liquid cooled, up to 700cc
* LIGHTWEIGHT GRAND PRIX
Three cylinder, up to 700cc
I got this info from the rule change thread. I hope that you are right. Later - Johnny
Wow... you're right... I can't believe that... Nothing will beable to compeat with the Triumph if thats not a type "O".
Lets wait till one shows up before we go to bitchen. I have never, ever seen a triumph on the race track at a CCS race. Maybe the guys that are going with the new Kawi should look at the Triumph. Hey last year in LWSS you could run a Buell as big as the cylinders would let you bore them. I didnt hear anyone say nothing. The Buells only showed up on F-USA weekends for the most part. Im just happy I can race my 748 in CCS thunderbike this year. Now all you SV guys can cry about that too.
I'm not crying about it. I'm wondering if I should get me a Daytona 675 if it is true. Those things could be competative in MW too and be just as competative as an inline 4 is in HW and unlimited.
Those are factory specs. Factories like to stretch the truth to improve sales. I don't think they'll be the SV killers everyone thinks they will be. It also says in the brochure that many of the parts are from Japanese bikes?
Doesnt matter. The thing shouldnt be in LW Classes. And it needs to be LW TWINS SS and SB as WERA is.
QuoteThose are factory specs. Factories like to stretch the truth to improve sales. I don't think they'll be the SV killers everyone thinks they will be.
Actually, nobody outside of CCS has even thought of it in the same breath as the SV, because that just aint a fair fight - even if the factory spec on the engine is ridiculously overblown, it'll put 100hp at the wheel stock. It belongs in MW.
Now, anybody who wants to race one will have to wrestle with a few things, like getting bodywork before the middle of next summer, having one or two choices for rearsets and frame sliders, etc.
QuoteDoesnt matter. The thing shouldnt be in LW Classes. And it needs to be LW TWINS SS and SB as WERA is.
2nd that!
All the triples from triumph have been legal for LW for years. There is one at my local pawn shop thats like new I could pick up cheap. They all have top notch componets and make way more power than other LW bikes. You just arent going to start seeing them show up, aint gonna happen. Why arent you worried about aircooled ducatis? The newer ones are over 100+ HP off the floor and more people would be willing to race um than a Triumph. In your world the LW class could be all ducatis, a one bike class, by your formula. This is just not going to happen, too many people like the Jap bikes no matter what. Anyway Ed Key can beat up on any LW bike you throw at him on his SV. Just go race and have fun, at our level so what, race what you bring. ;D
Triumph schmiumph, hell, just another d@mn 4-stroke to get in my way.
Maybe it can hold up the SVs for me so I can hunt them down faster. ;D
I remember when the T595 came out. Triumph claimed it was designed to compete head-to-head against - and beat - the 916. We really saw that happen...
There are lots of SV killers out there already, like the A/C Ducatis, FX level Buells, TZ framed singles, etc., which not many people race effectively. I think this bike will fall in the same category
-z.
QuoteI have never, ever seen a triumph on the race track at a CCS race.
I have. Rider problems caused it not to live up to its potential. I have seen a Triumph at an AMA round also. Rider broke the gear boxes. Again, seemed like a rider problem...different rider.
On paper, the new 675 sounds like an SV killer. Bikes can be performance indexed, so, I'm sure that Kevin and Eric are working on this.
I see this bike being lighter and more powerful than an old CBR600F2, and those aren't eligible for lightweight.
QuoteI was looking at this;
How To Get Started in Racing Under CCS (New Rider Mailer)
http://www.ccsracing.us/forms/2006/2006%20New%20Racer%20Pkg.pdf
and it shows;
* LIGHTWEIGHT SUPERSPORT
Three cylinder, liquid cooled, up to 675cc
* LIGHTWEIGHT SUPERBIKE
Three cylinder, liquid cooled, up to 700cc
* LIGHTWEIGHT GRAND PRIX
Three cylinder, up to 700cc
I got this info from the rule change thread. I hope that you are right. Later - Johnny
FWIW - I think it's great and now the 675 is on my "what should I buy for 2006 list".
I hated the day Suzuki introduced the SV and made my Hawk usless.......Maybe this is the SV beater I've been waiting for.
njracer
Anyone know where a guy from the Milwaukee area can find a Triumph dealer??
QuoteAnyone know where a guy from the Milwaukee area can find a Triumph dealer??
Go to the Triumph site and use the dealer locator.
There's shambeaus recreation up in two rivers.. about 100 miles straight north..
http://www.shambeaurec.com
Haha. The Triumph against the SVs? Pass the pipe this way Kevin. ;D
(This has to be a misprint/oversight/something. This would easily win the "rule that makes the least amount of sense" award, if such an award existed.)
QuoteAnyone know where a guy from the Milwaukee area can find a Triumph dealer??
Tom, I think Team Triumph is in Janesville.
I wouldn't run out and put money on the bike, unless you don't mind riding in the MW classes. I think the book was already written that way from before. Remember that Kevin can easily exclude or include a bike in any class due to perfomance index. I doubt we will see a Triump 675 racing against LW bikes...
And on the site it says...
2006 Competition Rule Book (Draft Copy)
So the rules aren't even 'final' per se.
Well, that will frost my @ss, mine is scheduled to be here in March, LOL
QuoteAnyone know where a guy from the Milwaukee area can find a Triumph dealer??
http://www.southeastsales.com/
QuoteI see this bike being lighter and more powerful than an old CBR600F2, and those aren't eligible for lightweight.
Oh contraire, mon frere. The F2s are legal in F40LW. But that's the only LW class we're eligible :( :'(
So you should/could still be out there in the F40LW grid Oldguy ;)
Say OG... hey... I kinda like that. Sorta gangsta soundin'.
Anyway, where was I? OG, what classes (and what region) do you run in WERA? I'll be V7MW myself.
Last year I was so busy I only got to do a couple Fasttrax races at Nelson Ledges. This year the wife is coming along so I need to do some more stuff. I have been riding **** N/C division because I live in NW PA and the schedule is better for me. I am going to get to BHF this year to kick K3's @$$. He is the one that spent many e-mails convincing me to race so it's only fair. Plus he owes me $20 and I'm coming to get it. ;D
OG,.............. I like that.
I may put OG racing on my trailer ;D
Yeah, OG - original gangsta 8)
Well then, I may run into you quite a bit then this coming year. The NC schedule (Nelson, Grattan & BeaveRun) does suit me much better than the 2 CCS trips to G-man.
I'm painfully slow, but a steady & predictable rider (ask Dylanfan, Bernie and some others who've blown by me in a race ca :-[). I'm thinking of venturing on down to Nelson to do the mini endurance races w/ Fasttrax a couple times.
I'll have to look for you next time.
:)Hey Tommy,
You would look Maaaavaalous on that new T-Biscuit! :)
go see Joe at Southeast Sales, 76 st just south of Good Hope rd.
Tell him I sent ya.
Paul
Polar-Optics
QuoteYeah, OG - original gangsta 8)
Well then, I may run into you quite a bit then this coming year. The NC schedule (Nelson, Grattan & BeaveRun) does suit me much better than the 2 CCS trips to G-man.
I'm painfully slow, but a steady & predictable rider (ask Dylanfan, Bernie and some others who've blown by me in a race ca :-[). I'm thinking of venturing on down to Nelson to do the mini endurance races w/ Fasttrax a couple times.
I'll have to look for you next time.
Fill out the rest of your profile. I can't tell where you are from, LOL
QuoteIt also says in the brochure that many of the parts are from Japanese bikes?
What's the point your trying to make here? Because there are Japanese components on it, it's placed correctly in the rules structure? ???
Naw, just rambling thoughts. I'm trying to figure out what aftermarket parts will fit. For instance the rearsets look like R1, but I can't be sure. The delivery schedule doesn't leave much time to get it in race trim, and that comment in the brochure threw me for a minute. Is the shock Japanese or Triumph from the 650? So many questions, so few answers.
I don't think the origin of the components is really an issue here. It seems to me that the fact that this bike makes 50 more horsepower and is comparable in weight to the SV is what got my attention. Dave compared the triumph to an F2 in his post. It seems to me that you don't need to go back that far. The power that this bike is making is similar to modern inline four 600's. It seems to me that if you let the Triumph ride in LW classes I should be able to ride my '03 Honda 600RR as well. I am suprised that we haven't heard a peep out of the SV racers on this. Don't get me wrong, I am not upset about this. I am curious. I dont see any other classes that have a 70% HP spread between bone stock bikes. I am very interested in how and why the decision was made to let these bikes race with us. An air cooled Duc makes sense to me. They have more power, but they also have more weight. An ac Duc is a great addition to the LW grids in my opinion. I just think that Triumph is an excellent fit in the MW classes, and I would like to know the reasoning behind it being a LW bike. Later - Johnny
Quote.... I dont see any other classes that have a 70% HP spread between bone stock bikes...
Actually more than 70%. The 125s only have 40hp. It's kinda ridiculous. It was bad enough with Kern running his BMW in the LW classes last year. Anyone have an idea of the HP & weight of those/his bike?
God, I hope this triumph is not like that.. it's ridiculous.
I think when more SV riders hear about this there will be al lot more activity on this issue.
I have been corresponding with Mr. Elliot on the Triumph question. I was hoping for an official posting from Kevin to address CCS justification for putting a 123 hp motorcycle into LW. Since it hasn't happened below is the response I got from CCS.
"Triumph has bragged about machines before that never lived up to their on paper potential. We reserve the right to remove any motorcycle from
any class with proper notice, which is thirty days according to our policy.
We will make sure before jumping to any conclusions."
I believe a conclusion has already been jumped to and I think it's the wrong one.
I just returned from Motorcycle Performance here in Madison. I had conversation with Fred the Dynojet operator who has literally thousands of pulls and years of experience with dynos. I asked him if in his experience Triumphs have been guilty of excessive optimism as far as their hp numbers are concerned. Fred replied that every manufacturer is optimistic but Triumph no more so than anyone else. He explained that manufactures measure crankshaft hp and most dynos measure rear wheel hp. Expect 8 to 10% drop in driveline loss. I then asked if a Triumph spec'ed at 123 bhp would make over 100 rear wheel SAE hp.
"Absolutely" was his reply.
Assuming that Triumph hasn't inflated their hp number by 25% (I'll take that bet) there is no question that the Triumph will eventually get reclassified as a MW. The real issue here is why did it ever end up in LW in the first place?
If CCS persists with this classification there are going to be very pissed off people. The people who purchase these 675's with the intention of running LW are going to be livid when they get bumped up. If I were going to buy a new MW it wouldn't be the 675.
The current installed base of SV riders are going to be pissed when these bikes dominate.
Here's my prediction. Virtually nobody will by one to run LW because of the inevitable bump into MW. This classification will stay on the books until someone brings one out less than 30 days before Daytona.
Just a couple of months ago I got stomped at Dayotna in LWSS by Art Diaz riding a 120 bhp XB9R superbike. Mr. Diaz overlooked one small item in the rulebook and was only an air cleaner away from winning. I have never seen a bigger speed differential in any SS class before in my life. That rule has now been changed, full superbike alu framed Buels are no longer legal in the class.
Seams like deja vu however as 120 bhp Triumphs are legal.
Ed Key
While the Daytona DOES have the big HP, it doesn't have contingency, aftermarket support. Hell, even though British Superbike has expanded it's supersport class (MW to us) to allow 675cc, Triumph still hasn't resurrected Team Valmoto (sponsored in part by Penthouse). What does the AMA rules say? Are 3 cylinder bikes allowed in supersport?
If a couple people start seriously racing them, they will get bumped up to Middleweight. A concern for most racers though, would be the contingency money NOT received because they placed lower than they normally do. And if it happens on a Suzuki or Kawasaki contingency weekend, there would be some major drama if they stole first, which has some high payout (so I've heard).
It was bad enough with Kern running his BMW in the LW classes last year. Anyone have an idea of the HP & weight of those/his bike?
A stock BMW R1100S weighs over 500 lbs wet, and makes just under 100 HP. There is almost nothing that can be done to substantially improve power on that bike.
Uh, Mr. Key. The 675 is my age handicap rule when I have to race against you. :o
QuoteNaw, just rambling thoughts. I'm trying to figure out what aftermarket parts will fit. For instance the rearsets look like R1, but I can't be sure. The delivery schedule doesn't leave much time to get it in race trim, and that comment in the brochure threw me for a minute. Is the shock Japanese or Triumph from the 650? So many questions, so few answers.
Ah, sorry I didn't understand where you were going with that thought originally.
Hinkley Triumph has a history of using Kayaba, and occationally Showa, suspension pieces, both front and rear on many of their line. I can't recall them ever actually sourcing sporting tackle from anywhere in Europe. I know, big help when trying to figure out what's on the 675. Sorry. :-/ The Kiehain injection system should make things somewhat easier on tuning atleast. Hopefully Triupmh has allowed some aftermarket manufacturers an advanced peek at the bike so they can get some parts in the pipeline soon. Especially for their British Supersport entires.
QuoteWhile the Daytona DOES have the big HP, it doesn't have contingency, aftermarket support. Hell, even though British Superbike has expanded it's supersport class (MW to us) to allow 675cc, Triumph still hasn't resurrected Team Valmoto (sponsored in part by Penthouse). What does the AMA rules say? Are 3 cylinder bikes allowed in supersport?
Don't expect Team Valmoto to re-appear any time soon. Mr Valantine is still in the employ of Foggy/Petronas for atleast another season.
AMA has said what it always says when shown something different....they don't allow it. Supersport is 600cc, doesn't matter what number of cylinders you run.
I remember asking the same questions when the Buells were allowed in LW!!! The XB12 is a 92hp 390lbs bike allowed in LW. Plus, I HIGHLY doubt the 675 will have over a 100hp. When the R6 first came out yamaha claimed 120hp and it only made 95hp at the wheel.
QuoteI remember asking the same questions when the Buells were allowed in LW!!! The XB12 is a 92hp 390lbs bike allowed in LW. Plus, I HIGHLY doubt the 675 will have over a 100hp. When the R6 first came out yamaha claimed 120hp and it only made 95hp at the wheel.
"You mean my '91 FZR600 has as much power as an R6? Not even close. My FZR has more like 75 HP. If the Daytona is allowed then I will ask for the same on the FZR and there is no contigency for the FZR.
QuoteFill out the rest of your profile. I can't tell where you are from, LOL
;D The only identifier missing from my profile is my age ;)
I'm right here. In Royal Oak, MI (a NW suburd of Detroit).
QuoteAh, sorry I didn't understand where you were going with that thought originally.
Hinkley Triumph has a history of using Kayaba, and occationally Showa, suspension pieces, both front and rear on many of their line. I can't recall them ever actually sourcing sporting tackle from anywhere in Europe. I know, big help when trying to figure out what's on the 675. Sorry. :-/ The Kiehain injection system should make things somewhat easier on tuning atleast. Hopefully Triupmh has allowed some aftermarket manufacturers an advanced peek at the bike so they can get some parts in the pipeline soon. Especially for their British Supersport entires.
Honestly, most aftermarket companies will not even bother with making special parts for the 675. The market just isn't there. If something that fits another make bolts on, the companies will provide coverage, if they even know it bolts up. Racers need to be able to easily and inexpensively get replacement levers, pedals, etc. With Triumphs right now, the only option is ordering from a dealer.
QuoteDon't expect Team Valmoto to re-appear any time soon. Mr Valantine is still in the employ of Foggy/Petronas for atleast another season.
AMA has said what it always says when shown something different....they don't allow it. Supersport is 600cc, doesn't matter what number of cylinders you run.
Thanks for the info :) I just remember Valmoto being sponsored in part by Penthouse, and they managed a 3rd place finish at the last race of the season a couple years ago. That was when I bought my Speed Four so I kept track of the BSB races.
AMA should be more open than that, but that is off topic. They are shutting out Ducati and Triumph just because their bikes aren't the same as the Japanese brands.
QuoteThanks for the info :) I just remember Valmoto being sponsored in part by Penthouse, and they managed a 3rd place finish at the last race of the season a couple years ago. That was when I bought my Speed Four so I kept track of the BSB races.
I recall the Penthouse sponsorship too. Made for some nice 'broily babe' pics on their website.
Actually Craig Jones won the final race he ran for Valmoto Triumph. He placed 2nd on a Honda for the season this year, and has just signed to ride for Foggy in World Superbike. The lad is a charger to be sure.
QuoteAMA should be more open than that, but that is off topic. They are shutting out Ducati and Triumph just because their bikes aren't the same as the Japanese brands.
Yup. Too bad they don't observe what goes on in just about every other Pro series in the world in this case.
Does anyone remember when the XB-9 was legal in ultra light . I complained from day 1. It didn't change things. After the season was over,CCS looked over the results and changed the rules. Every race it was in ,it won. Duh ! I believe on average there was a 30hp diff. My take on this is until there are stats to prove that the Triumph has an advantage nothing is going to change. In my case the Buell riders (winners) were different at most races. So they didn't effect the overall championship. Time will tell.
PS. Nates biggest advantage was his ability to ride. Unfortionatly his ego was even bigger...
QuoteAssuming that Triumph hasn't inflated their hp number by 25% (I'll take that bet) there is no question that the Triumph will eventually get reclassified as a MW. The real issue here is why did it ever end up in LW in the first place?
Totally agreed.
Even if it's an F2 copy, we're talking a 90+ HP supersport bike. And it will weight less than an F2. And it will have extra displacement. And better brakes. And bigger wheels.
We'll see...
QuoteHonestly, most aftermarket companies will not even bother with making special parts for the 675. The market just isn't there. If something that fits another make bolts on, the companies will provide coverage, if they even know it bolts up. Racers need to be able to easily and inexpensively get replacement levers, pedals, etc. With Triumphs right now, the only option is ordering from a dealer.
That's why I will be making parts for the 675 as soon as I get one to measure. Being a small manufacturer (and a racer) I can handle what will probably be a small market in the US. I'm going to sell thru Augusta Triumph/Ducati.
Quote"You mean my '91 FZR600 has as much power as an R6? Not even close. My FZR has more like 75 HP. If the Daytona is allowed then I will ask for the same on the FZR and there is no contigency for the FZR.
Did you have that dynoed?
If that's what you've got...you might have problems. 600 Katana's had around 78 to 82 RWHP. FZR's had enough that they were pretty much capable of keeping up very very well with GSXR750's in 1989. My GSXR750 had 114RWHP. No the FZR didn't make that much HP, but they were very capable of keeping up and passing F2's in a drag race on a road course, but they had 18" rear wheels.
Regardless, the T-675 in Lightweight just really appears ridiculous.
IMO,
This is a classic "lose, lose" situation. Those who run SV's aren't going to tolerate a MW bike out there. Those who invest in one will most likely be screwed and upset when/if they get bumped to MW.
It's silly in the first place.
I'm not going to run the gaunlet of pi$$ed off fellow racers by racing one so I won't buy it. But someone will undoubtedly step in this pile of poo.
This needs to be nipped in the bud now, before people lose money.
Kevin... is the 675 gonna weight less and have more power than your bike?
QuoteHonestly, most aftermarket companies will not even bother with making special parts for the 675. The market just isn't there. If something that fits another make bolts on, the companies will provide coverage, if they even know it bolts up. Racers need to be able to easily and inexpensively get replacement levers, pedals, etc. With Triumphs right now, the only option is ordering from a dealer.
The brake levers made for your SV will fit on my 955. Levers are more dependent on the brake master cylinder than on the bike manufacturer.
Other than that, though, you're absolutely right - there'll only be a few aftermarket companies that support these bikes, and the parts will be expensive. I've been discouraging people from thinking of this as a race bike since before the specs were published. Yeah, it looks more raceable than I'd thought it would, but Triumph isn't going to support racers, and it's going to take second (or third, or fourth...) priority from the aftermarket.
Still, I've ordered one for track days (because I'm a triple loving freak!) and there are a few people who will take the 'tilt-at-windmills' challenge and race them. They really shouldn't do this planning on it being a lightweight. Even if it's not all that Bike magazine has hyped, it's not a lightweight.
QuoteThat's why I will be making parts for the 675 as soon as I get one to measure. Being a small manufacturer (and a racer) I can handle what will probably be a small market in the US. I'm going to sell thru Augusta Triumph/Ducati.
Good to hear.
IMHO, it would not be smart for CCS to proceed with the classification of the Triumph as a lightweight bike. Currently, they don't stand to lose any Triumph 675 riders because there aren't any. However, there are a number of SV650 guys which may just migrate to other series. WERA, CMRA, and I believe the others have classified it as a MW bike, and that has caused some friction, so I got to say WTF on putting it in LW.
I was hoping for a good GP region this year, but this concerns me. I think it could affect participation. Anyway, I just don't see any angle it makes sense from. I ride an SV, and my race plan was to do the GP series, but I'm on the fence now. Any comment from CCS would be appreciated.
QuoteKevin... is the 675 gonna weight less and have more power than your bike?
Redirect...
SV's weighed less than EX500's and Honda Hawks, and more consistent power, etc...
But if any reasonable possibiity of a 675 three cylinder with FI, four valves per cylinder, etc. is realized, it's a "middleweight bike" through and through.
Anybody else notice the Triumph 675 ads at the top of the page? >:(
Is this really what is driving this! >:(
>:( >:( >:( >:(
QuoteAnybody else notice the Triumph 675 ads at the top of the page? >:(
Is this really what is driving this! >:(
>:( >:( >:( >:(
Isn't this an 'unofficial' board, no connection to CCS itself? If so, there couldn't be much influence there. Triumph has banner ads all over for this thing. The one here did surprise me because it's my understanding that Triumph is not supporting racers at all - not even to the extent of getting them specs or pattern bodywork ahead of time.
Here's another thought - CCS has the 955 in middleweight, rather than the heavyweight or liter class you'd expect.
Has anyone really tried to race a 2002 or later 955 in middleweight? Year matters a lot here, because that's the year the engine got overhauled for top end.
Not that this makes any difference to the discussion at hand, but it is an example of where a triumph has been oddly categorized before without apparent ill effect to any racer.
Triumph has had spec classes before.
They were really heavy bikes. The 600 Triumphs were middlewieight bikes.
955...I think there was a spec class in like 1997 for them. Didn't they have three valve heads or something? For some bikes, like Ducati's, the valve train set up (2V, 3V, 4V, 5V) can be mitigating factors to the performance.
Anyway, what is the 675? Four valve three cylinder with probably 100 RWHP.
'97 t595 (which was the original 955cc Daytona) was 4 valve.
The motor's state of tune was changed quite a bit in '02 (or maybe before) - they sacrificed some mid range for more top end. The '02s also had upgraded suspension and were maybe a little lighter (esp. the double sided swing arm)
If the 123 crank HP on the 675 relates to rear wheel the same way the quoted 149 of the '02 955 dies, 110 hp at the wheel would what I'd expect with a slip on and tune. This is based on my 955 making 134.
QuoteIsn't this an 'unofficial' board, no connection to CCS itself? If so, there couldn't be much influence there. Triumph has banner ads all over for this thing. The one here did surprise me because it's my understanding that Triumph is not supporting racers at all - not even to the extent of getting them specs or pattern bodywork ahead of time.
Google ads function in that they provide an advertisement based upon the content of the webpage being used. The text of the page is scanned and used as keywords for the advertisement. If you start a thread about Trumph's, expect to see a trumph ad. Start a thread about Dodge and you'll see the same thing happen.
D'oh. I've gotten so that I don't even read "Ads by Goooooogle"!
And I've been reading a lot of 675 threads.
So what? No conspiracy theory? ;D
QuoteThey were really heavy bikes. The 600 Triumphs were middlewieight bikes.
So what you all are saying is the sanctioning body has little confidence in the competitive ability of Triumphs non 4 cyl bikes, so they throw them a bone? ;D
Quote955...I think there was a spec class in like 1997 for them.
There was a Speed Triple spec class, but that was the old first generation triple that was 885cc. I don't recall a T5 based series.
I'd also like to point out that Triumph won the AMA Pro Thunder class a couple years. Maybe that's what your thinking of. j/k
Mike, At first glance the numbers seem to be better. More HP, less wt. . My engine is alot lighter. In race trim mine is lighter. More Lt.Wt. bits for Ducs.Personally I'm not against it yet. It's not as clear to me as the XB-9 was. In the past there were more classes to run different bikes. Without entry levels to sustain them were down to only 2 as I see it. Ultra-Lt. & Lt. Wt. I feel we should welcome the newcomers & see how it pans out.Just do what you do best. Stick that little bike up the inside & don't look back! ;D
In any case, CCS had better set the rules straight before the first race of the year (which would be Feb. in the SW). Any change to the rules midseason with regards to bike classification is a mistake. People should have the oppertunity to plan their season and set goals. If your goal is a LW class championship, and after a couple races someone decides your bike is to fast and has to bump up to MW, now you are screwed out of either championship.
The best compromise might be to not allow the Triumph in LWSS, but allow it in LWSB (I seem to remember some of the Ducatis being affected like this before).
In any case, It won't affect me personally. I race LWGP, and there isn't anything stopping someone from showing up with a world GP level 250, with every part replaced with Ti or carbon. 100+ hp and 200 lbs. It doesn't bother me, I realize someone will always have a faster bike, we all just have to deal with it.
-z.
I'm with you...won't affect me really, unless I get my H1 running or it is a really fast bike in the middleweight classes.
And for those that think the Triumph doesn't belong in LW...
Have you bothered to send your thoughts to CCS? If not, you have no voice.
QuoteI'm with you...won't affect me really, unless I get my H1 running or it is a really fast bike in the middleweight classes.
Haven't you been getting that thing running for like the last four years? I've been waiting to see you in f-usa thunderbike. Speaking of which, wouldn't the trump be allowed in F-usa thunderbike as per last years rules. When are we gonna see a 2006 ASRA rulebook?
Unfortunately, it will be going on six years. I have the frame done. Wheels are laced up. Swingarm is ready. I have some cr@ppy shocks to start with. Tank and tail are painted.
Crank needs to go to Australia, and that can't happen until January. Trans will get shipped out too. I can do that sooner rather than later.
It's still gonna be a while. Once we have the motor ready, then it should be easier.
I'm just looking through the '06 Draft of the rulebook
http://www.ccsracing.us/forms/2006/2006%20Rulebook.pdf
and it doesn't show the Triumph 675 being able to run as LW in any class...but the new racer mailer download does... ???
QuoteI'm just looking through the '06 Draft of the rulebook
http://www.ccsracing.us/forms/2006/2006%20Rulebook.pdf
and it doesn't show the Triumph 675 being able to run as LW in any class...but the new racer mailer download does... ???
Shouldnt be any ??? ??? ... thats the way it should be. I didnt see it in the rule book, maybe they rethought it since the rule book was out after the mailer. Good times.
I agree - and glad to see it NOT in LW!
Just hoping the mailer gets changed to take it out and NOT the rule book to put it in!
:'( :'(
Quote:'( :'(
Why the tears Thump?
QuoteI agree - and glad to see it NOT in LW!
Just hoping the mailer gets changed to take it out and NOT the rule book to put it in!
I`ve emailed both Kevin and Eric looking for clarification on what class the bike goes in with no answer. I`m guessing the jury is still out!
Unbeleivable (not really), I have been accused and nothing short of spat on for running a 500 plus lb., air cooled, shaft driven, BMW in LW. Due to the fact that the bike loses 22% HP from the shaft drive and at the wheel the out put was 70.8 hp. The bike still wieghs 504 wet and the ground clearance does come into play once you are going flat out. Those cyclinder heads alter lnes at tracks like VIR and barber where the curbing is a bit higher.
I would love to run AMA, but the next best challenge is to run and overweight/underpowered machine that is laughed at (initially) and winning LW classes and finishing top ten in the 600's. If anyone feels that they could do better on the BMW then go race one! Ask Ed Key. He pushed me harder than I have ever been pushed. His SV's may not be close to stock, but I didnt cry and whine like the majority, I am here to race and have good battles. I f anyone would like to accompany me to the dyno and scales I am more than happy to give you a ride there.
Race more pose less!
Have a great new year everyone!
Nate
Read my first post (P4).
Then read Nate's again.
Enough said ;)
ahhhh...I thought you went out and bought yourself a Triumph!
HELL NO !!!!
If you dont mind, explain my ego, and tell me if there is any reason why I should be excited about winning anything on a BMW?! Again, my point is if I were winning on an SV I dont think there would be as many critics, but I am gettin er' done on the pleasingly plump BMW!
I think I would be pissed too if I had a BMW beat me. I guess this last comment validates my ego...?
Have a great New Year everyone!
N8 Kern
I raced against You Nate on a sv and I wouldn't want to see you on one. What you could do on that beast of yours pretty much amazed me, dont get a lighter bike with more hp, please...
Thanks dude. I am out there like all of you, trying to do the best I can. Where did we run together and what was your comp. #? What are your plans for 2006? I have a new challenge, Im running the heavier and longer (62 inch wheelbase) BMW K12R, but now in the Unlimted classes. Its a naked bike and the drag is unreal, but for some reason the bike (not me) gets it done through engineering!
It was tough jumping from the Boxer twin and on the Kawi ZX10 in back to back races. Throttle control had a whole new definition... lol
Look forward to 06' and look me up in the pits when you have the time.
take care,
Nate
Hey Nate, what was your reasoning to run the bmw instead of something lighter with more power? Challenge? Sponsorship?
1) Challenge 2) Sponsorship (hard to come by these days, full I mean) 3) long term goals with BMW, they are a very loyal company and reward loyalty and results. Again, I would love to do more AMA stuff, but the opportunity to race in europe as a support class (BMW Boxer/Power Cups) is far better experience than AMA. I credit 3/4's of my success to the teams/riders in europe that taught me how to ride these big bikes. When I was there in a one make series, it really go tme thinking about how to go faster if someone in front of me has th esame bike and tires "why cant I?"
The bike really teaches you how to ride, it demands corner speed which is crazy for such a wide long bike and body positioning is crucial to get it to turn. When I get off the BMW and onto other bikes (sometimes) I cant beleive how much faster I am going. It is a very deceptive bike and a great training bike. Its like swinging 3 baseball bats at once! jk, I love it and look forward to the new K12R and the challenge it brings with the East berlin Choppers style of riding that I need to get accustomed to. I had a chance to ride a factory (Munich) BMW K12R in the Czech Grand Prix round of the Power Cup. It was nuts, 2 30 minute qualifying, GO RACE! No practice, no race day warm up, qualify, warmup lap, RACE. That teaches you haow to be up to full speed entering turn 2 on the opening lap. Have agood one!
nate
Ha. I'll aways remember Nate at VIR ROGUE day when his throttle stuck wide open and that BMW was spinning like a top and Nate jumping in and out trying to hit the kill switch.
So I guess if I show up with a T675 this year you'll all be p*ssed and kick my a$$? Don't I get an old age handicap so I can ride LW? You guys are cold!. Cold I tell ya. ;D
LOL. Oh yeah, I couldnt beleive it. Its funny how your hear "bass stories" about how my throttle stuck and this is why, yadda yadda... Thank goodness the throttle was still stuck when my mechanic got a hold of it. The BMW has this little box under the tank where the throttle cables split off to each throttle body. There is some sort of return something or other in ther for the cables... all I know is that I went to roll off for T4 and WANANANANANUH of the rev limiter the tach is bouncing and the throttle is shut off completely. I jumped. The bike was on the left cylinder head and the throttle up in the air on the right and the fact that it was in gear it was spinning like a pin wheel on the head.
Every time I stepped in to kill the motor the ass end was swinging around. i finally jumped on the bike and it took me a couple of revolutions around to get it turned off! LOL if we only had a video. New way to bike surf eh'?
Nate
we played at roebling i think the july weekend, expert #11. Ray Silika
Oh man. I remember the BMW days... '83 and '84 running an old Beemer 1000 in WERA endurance races with Dan Luchon from Southeast Sales in Milwaukee. A couple of races (Blackhawk Farms and Road America 6 hours) I rode two teams, the beemer and a 650 Kawi superbike (w/Ed Key as a co-rider on the Kawi). Yeah throttle control was interesting jumping from one bike to the other.
We had the motor raised in the frame of the beemer for more ground clearance but we still had to run reinforced valve covers because we'd grind through them in the turns and develop oil leaks. Dan had aluminum plates welded onto the covers for added strength and thickness.
Great job with the beemer Nate. It's good to see someone with enough balls to run something different and make the playing field a bit more interesting.
Any official CCS update?
Still being discussed by CCS. From what I`ve heard you`ve got nothing to worry about though. That new Triumph is going to be a pooch ( like all the others)
CCS will probably leave it in lightweight and you won`t see one!
its bullshit, from racing in europe 2 years in a row, my buddy has tested this 675 in england and spain. it is a pure 600 class purpose buitl for the middleweight class. IM SICK of people bitching about me on a BMW when I am atthe otehr end of the spectrum here. My bike shouldnt be tehre cause it not nearly as competitive and the 675 is going to smoke the ligthweight class. the bike has already run 1/4 miles times in the 11 sec. range and has topped out at 158 mph. in tests. put even the slower of guys on that bike and they will be running up front in LW.
I do thank those that can comprhend the challenge I have accepted and have sportsmanship, but allowing this bike in LW will further decrease attendance for CCS events. Same analogy as the 748 Duc in Thunderbike. Unless you have a $5k motor in your Buell (if it lasts) or Ed Keys SV Superbike, which was no cheap adventure, you just have to out ride them.
N8!
Nate, not trying to take anything from you or your riding. You obviously care more about this topic as you have vested interest. I`m actually kinda neutral and do not care where the 675 ends up. Do you know anywhere a guy could find tests or info to back up the performance numbers you talked about?
So Nate, why don't you tell us how you REALLY feel? ;D ;D
Yes, a little hostile eh Nate? :)
I don't think anyone's 'b1tching' about you and your riding. and if you're talking about my comments.. I'm just saying it 'sucks' that I have to race against you in the same races, b/c you're so damn fast. It's like a given that you'll win... Either you or Kcraget. :) I say the same things about the SVs.. it sucks that I have to race them, so don't take it personal. :) I'm just jealous.
I still need hard proof before I believe a triumph is fast!! did I say hard....? :o
Heh... Heh... Heh, you said hard.
LOL, :D Im really not that hostile, just look at everyone that is riding their asses off and I beleive in level playing fields. The point is The Triumph 675 was built and marketed for the 600 class. Never once have you heard about Triumph saying "we built and SV killer". All articles have been written in the tune of a purpose buitl 600 class machine.
I am not by any means feeling discouraged if I had to run a BMW against one, but again there are more racers out there than me. I just want evreyone to leave the track feeling that they had a pretty fair fight with their machinery. Apologees for anyone feeling I am tooting my own horn here.. I think it is the same analogy as some SV riders on beer budgets. Their bikes are not the fastest SV's out there, but they are riding their hearts out and still realize they dont have the closest HP or yadda yadda... Im just ranting. Im not trying to be the spokesperson for everyone , but I know how it feels more than you think not having the fastest bike out there.
OK have a good one!
N8!
Hey, it's the off season! We have to vent or we'll explode ;D.
I'll bet you could beat me with me on my T-675 and you on my K1200LTE any day of the week. (And probably 2 up to boot) ;D
:P knock it off! lol Lets just go have some fun. I was thinking though Old Guy, if it was last lap if I was coming around just hold up the T675 in front me.
jk!
nate
So tell me again if the Triumph 675 is allowed in the Lightweight classes, why isn't my 14 y/o FZR600?
Mark
been waiting for someone to start on that...
and if you're out there EH427...how bout that F2 as a LW? actually it is legal for LW F40 right? ;)
Yes, my F2 is legal for lightweight f40. The reason I got last year for it not being legal in the other lightweight classes was because of the potential horsepower that can be achieved from it. I would assume the same reasoning would apply this year. That being said, I don't think the 675 should be classified as a lightweight based on the same principal.
When somebody finds a comprehensive review of the trumpet 675, please post it here. Once the HP #s come out and the true performance of this bike is known, this issue will be resolved. But since I'm here, I'll voice my opinion: This bike does not belong in the LTWT class. It should be racing against 4cyl 600s. If it sucks and can't compete, then too bad. My guess is that in SS trim this bike will smoke an SV650 and the new Kawa 650 no problem.
QuoteWhen somebody finds a comprehensive review of the trumpet 675, please post it here. Once the HP #s come out and the true performance of this bike is known, this issue will be resolved. But since I'm here, I'll voice my opinion: This bike does not belong in the LTWT class. It should be racing against 4cyl 600s. If it sucks and can't compete, then too bad. My guess is that in SS trim this bike will smoke an SV650 and the new Kawa 650 no problem.
Until a comprehensive review comes out no one is capable of knowing what class the bike belongs in. CCS officials will either be scorned for putting the bike in lightweight if it does well or ridiculed for killing the bikes sales by putting it in middleweight. Let me voice my unbiased opinion(I don`t run lightweight)
The triumph is too fast for lightweight and in no way will compete in middleweight!!!
I would not want burden this decision bears!
QuoteUntil a comprehensive review comes out no one is capable of knowing what class the bike belongs in. CCS officials will either be scorned for putting the bike in lightweight if it does well or ridiculed for killing the bikes sales by putting it in middleweight. Let me voice my unbiased opinion(I don`t run lightweight)
The triumph is too fast for lightweight and in no way will compete in middleweight!!!
I would not want burden this decision bears!
oops, sorry. Yes, I agree, the trumpet will be too fast for ltwt and too slow for middlewt
Ahhh. The old red-headed step child.
You guys aren't even going to give me an age handicap are ya? ;D
Kevin..this bike needs to be banned from Lightweight. It is way to powerful for a lightweight class. It either needs to be a MW bike or strictly limited to Thunderbike or somthing. It is absolutly rediculous to have this bike in a class that is mainly SV650's. I even think Buell's should be limited to Thunderbike. The speed down the straights is rediculous compared to that of an SV Superbike that is built. With so many riders, the vast majority, racing SV 650's in LW class, is it a good idea to allow this machine into LW's. I am not that slow, not the fastest, but you could take a lot slower rider, put him on this Triumph and first of all he would smash the grid off the line and just dominate on the straighter sections of the tracks...like going to the finish line.
From the Triumph site
Weight (Dry) 165kg (363lbs)
Fuel Tank Capacity 17.4 litres (4.6 gal US)
Maximum Power 125PS (123bhp) at 12,500 rpm
Maximum Torque 72Nm (53ft.lbf) at 11,750 rpm
My buddy that was invited to test the 675 raced for the UK Boxer Cup team and has been connected to the company for years. It is what it is. The machine was prupose buitl for the 600 class. The SV for LW and the BMW for touring!
nate
Quoteyou could take a lot slower rider, put him on this Triumph and first of all he would smash the grid off the line and just dominate on the straighter sections of the tracks...like going to the finish line.
So what division do you race in? (Where's that littly pokey thing when you need it?)
The BMW is an aircooled monster..quite a difference. Correct me if I'm wrong
lol, mosnter as i n HP? LOLOLOLOL. It makes the power of an SV. marketing is marketing, they sday it makes more than what it does in real life. Again, 7 lbs. lost is 1 hp gained. So do the math. Either wya I love the challenge and have fun each weekend racing.
N8
I dont have a problem with the BMW. Monster as in weight and being an air cooled...fairly certain it is aircooled. The Triumph though is a different story. You cant even build an SV Superbike to match that thing in stock form. Its rediculous.
;D will we will see how the triump stacks up to the buell
Equal riders, I think the Triumph will smash the Buell
Kevin...listen to your peeps!!! ;D
MUTUAL! Buells schmool, I love spankin Buells! Sv guys are my friends... lol We got the Beemer into the 53's @ Daytona. Hey lookin forward to daytona, oh yeah we shaved 10 lbs. off the BMW, she is down to 460 something.
N8
damn....460lbs
dry baby dry! we lose 23% HP from the shaft drive.
I said SHAFT, lol
N8!
I still say nothing will change if the triumph is lightweight legal. Very few if any will make the race track. With the triumph in middleweight class it will get KILLED by GSXR/R6/ZX!!!
QuoteI still say nothing will change if the triumph is lightweight legal. Very few if any will make the race track. With the triumph in middleweight class it will get KILLED by GSXR/R6/ZX!!!
Thats irrelevant. It may get beat in MW, but you can at least build that thing stronger than it is to be competative. In LW you CANT build a SV SB to match the HP of the Triumph in just stock form. Not being many out there..well, suppose 2 show up for expert when they are going for money.
QuoteMUTUAL! Buells schmool, I love spankin Buells! Sv guys are my friends... lol We got the Beemer into the 53's @ Daytona. Hey lookin forward to daytona, oh yeah we shaved 10 lbs. off the BMW, she is down to 460 something.
N8
N8!, why the H8?
Come on. Fess up now. You have friends who ride Buells. ;)
QuoteWith the triumph in middleweight class it will get KILLED by GSXR/R6/ZX!!!
with that line of thought...should we then allow every
MW bike that gets beat by a better or newer bike to run LW? Don't think so.
No need to get huffy boys. We just disagree that`s all. Until the performance of the triumph is actually known and not just speculation this whole thread is irrelevant. Nate brought up marketing of the BMW a few posts ago and who`s to say that triumph isn`t pulling the same stuff? This wouldn`t be the first time triumph claimed a bike was going to be more than it was!
The Beemer is a completely different species than this damn 675 Triple, liquid cooled, 323lb dry, 123hp, 53ftlb torque machine
???Money. There's money in LW?? Do you know something I don't? "SHOW ME THE MONEY" ;D
ok, I have 2 Buell friends, P.James and D.Estok. THATS IT! ok R.Conwrath and his buddy with the belly!
L8r, N8!
QuoteThe Beemer is a completely different species than this damn 675 Triple, liquid cooled, 323lb dry, 123hp, 53ftlb torque machine
123 CLAIMED hp!! 53ftlb CLAIMED!! You guys don`t want it in lightweight and I am fine with that. I`m just saying I bet this thing ends up having about 90 hp at the rear wheel(dynojet). If it`s a torque monster and it lightens up with race prep Ed Key would probably have met his match!!
if a stock '92 F2 can't run LW because it's able to be built up...then a stock '06 T-675 with whatever HP it's got shouldn't be allowed either.
and comparing the T-675 with the BMW isnt right...the BMW weighs a quite a bit more...and for Nate to hussle that monster around they way he does - god bless him.
QuoteUntil the performance of the triumph is actually known and not just speculation this whole thread is irrelevant.
Why? Is the CCS classification system based on performance indexing? When the Kawi went to 636, it slotted straight into middlewieght because the rules said 640cc - nobody waited to find out how much power it really made vs. how much it really weighed. The only difference here is that for some reason Kevin jumped the gun and added a rule to put this thing in lightweight - 675cc liquid cooled triple against 650cc liquid cooled twin- what do you think CAN make more power - unless we're talking performance indexing, what DOES make more power doesn't matter.
Just because a bike won't be competitive in the class it naturally fits in is no reason to put it a class down. If it isn't competitive against the bikes it's competing for sales with, who cares? By this logic the TT600 should have been a lightweight!
QuoteWhy? Is the CCS classification system based on performance indexing? When the Kawi went to 636, it slotted straight into middlewieght because the rules said 640cc - nobody waited to find out how much power it really made vs. how much it really weighed. The only difference here is that for some reason Kevin jumped the gun and added a rule to put this thing in lightweight - 675cc liquid cooled triple against 650cc liquid cooled twin- what do you think CAN make more power - unless we're talking performance indexing, what DOES make more power doesn't matter.
Just because a bike won't be competitive in the class it naturally fits in is no reason to put it a class down. If it isn't competitive against the bikes it's competing for sales with, who cares? By this logic the TT600 should have been a lightweight!
You make some good points. However, I have had a CCS license since 1990 and I have watched the rulebook change many times regarding bike classification/classes. Bikes that are legal in a class one year aren`t the next. Again, I am not pushing for the Triumph to run in lightweight. I just think that`s where it`ll end up. BTW I believe there is a rule that allows the change of class eligibility with 30 days notice(or something to that nature) so it`s feasible the bike starts out in one class and ends up in another!?
Please please please can I put a YZF600 engine stroked to 670cc in an FZR400 chassis and run lightweight? Or stick an SV1000 motor in a 650 chassis? Or run a superbike F2? Or a Buell with unlimited mods?
SCCA car racing in the production classes holds an interesting lesson here. By playing with weight, 5 decades of sportscars can compete in a given class, and the competition is fierce! When you're watching the national championships and the lead pack consists of an MGA, a Miata, an RX7 A 280Z, and a Super 7, you're seeing some close, interesting racing. Better yet, these racers don't have to throw away their ride every few years to stay in the hunt.
Imagine a run-whatcha-brung CCS class based on power-to-weight ratio, weight measured with the rider aboard in full gear. It's been done in many other forms of racing. Oh the joyful, cheap to build hotrods that could be created from outdated equipment for such a class!
QuotePlease please please can I put a YZF600 engine stroked to 670cc in an FZR400 chassis and run lightweight? Or stick an SV1000 motor in a 650 chassis? Or run a superbike F2? Or a Buell with unlimited mods?
SCCA car racing in the production classes holds an interesting lesson here. By playing with weight, 5 decades of sportscars can compete in a given class, and the competition is fierce! When you're watching the national championships and the lead pack consists of an MGA, a Miata, an RX7 A 280Z, and a Super 7, you're seeing some close, interesting racing. Better yet, these racers don't have to throw away their ride every few years to stay in the hunt.
Imagine a run-whatcha-brung CCS class based on power-to-weight ratio, weight measured with the rider aboard in full gear. It's been done in many other forms of racing. Oh the joyful, cheap to build hotrods that could be created from outdated equipment for such a class!
+1 ;D
triumph review http://www.phillipmccallen.com/daytona-675-report.html
this just makes it more confusing http://www.racemotorcycles.com/cgi-bin/board/YaBB.pl?board=rules;action=display;num=1130468247
Quotetriumph review http://www.phillipmccallen.com/daytona-675-report.html
OK, the guys a dealer. How would Triumph treat a dealership that wrote up a report that their new bike was a POS and rode like a turd?
Exactly. I`ll hold out for roadracing world or someone similiar. Hopefully with a dyno test! Should be soon dontcha think?
QuoteYes, my F2 is legal for lightweight f40. The reason I got last year for it not being legal in the other lightweight classes was because of the potential horsepower that can be achieved from it. I would assume the same reasoning would apply this year. That being said, I don't think the 675 should be classified as a lightweight based on the same principal.
Well my 630cc FZR breathing through flatslides, and as tested on the same dyno as the Thunderbike record holding lap at Daytona SV Superbike (with Michael Barnes aboard) apparently has less horsepwoer than the SV. But the Superbike SV can run the GT lights class. Potential power??
FYI check the 06 rulebook that is where 675 will run
license renewal mailer was a proposal only
So its a MW Bike...good
Yep, its a MW bike alright. So theres nothing to worry about now. ;)
Darn it. I was having way too much fun fanning this fire. I was hoping to drive the post count past the "supersport thread".
Nothing to see here........ move on. This thread is dead. ;D
now what are we gonna chat about?
oh and winter sucks.....
Yeah, winter sucks big time. I have a lot of bodywork to fix (I din't crash it) so I guess I need to suck it up and go do it. I might be forced to actually watch Greg White on TWT.......... Naw, screw that. That's above and beyond.
TWT sucks any more too...more breaks with commercials and NAS_CRAP than any bike stuff :-/
QuoteDarn it. I was having way too much fun fanning this fire. I was hoping to drive the post count past the "supersport thread".
Nothing to see here........ move on. This thread is dead. ;D
That`s what I was doing! too!! ;D
QuoteThat`s what I was doing! too!! ;D
Ya know.... I could tell that, LOL It looks like so far there are only 330 or so deposits for the states so they'll be spread pretty thin. Should be a fun track day bike. Or a killer LW class bike. HaHa
OK, what's next? Novices on liter bikes?
QuoteOK, what's next? Novices on liter bikes?
Absolutely should not be allowed! With very few exceptions they do not have the skill to ride these! You better start a new thread though or you are going to get reamed! ;D
Wanna start something? LOL! 8)