can someone please explain how these work. I understand the basics behind them, but I would like to know how racers like them - how well they work, if its worth the $800 investment. How much maintenance is required to keep them working well.
Also, how do these operate? Can you downshift without blipping? can you just downshft a few gears without releasing the clutch between shifts?
I thought about buying one but with all the new bikes coming out with them and racers getting new bikes every 2 or 3 years I figured I would wait and suck it up this year.
Funny. I was just having this discussion with a colleague of mine who races as well.
Here's some info I wrote earlier:
http://www.cbr600rr.com/pages/reviews/yoyoclutch.htm
Now, to go a bit beyond that info.
The slipper clutch works by doing just that. Slipping. It would be the equivalent of pulling in the clutch slightly while downshifting. It allows the plates to slip and not lock up the rear tire.
How do I like mine? I'd trade my quickshifter, power commander and exhaust for it any day of the week. After suspension, it would be the next upgrade I'd put on the list.
They operate by having basically a "ramp" on which the clutch basket sits. There are ball bearings on the ramp and springs to hold the basket down on the ramp. When the back-torque on the clutch exceeds a certain point, the clutch rotates forward, riding up the ramp on the ball bearings and causing the clutch to slip.
It does NOT eliminate engine braking. On my 600rr, mine will engine brake up to about 10.5k RPM on the slipper clutch.
Can you downshift without blipping? Well, yes. But I wouldn't recommend it. Can you downshift a few gears without releasing the clutch? Everyone who has a slipper clutch tries this and about craps themselves when the back end slides like mad.
Basically, you downshift EXACTLY as you do without a slipper clutch (blip, one gear at a time), but once you understand how it works and the feeling of it, you can rip-off downshifts as fast as your hands & feet will allow them to be done.
You can go from 6th to 2nd in just a couple of seconds (like 2) without a hop or slide. Whereas without the slipper clutch, you'd take 2-3x that amount of time AND the rear would be hopping around.
I personally figured that a quickshifter would be money better spent. While the quickshifter is great, I couldn't have been more wrong. The slipper clutch is, in my opinion, one of the best things you can put in a bike.
My personal experience is with the Yoyodyne clutch. Talk to Fred at www.yoyodyneti.com and tell him I sent you over, he might be able to hook you up with a discount. I'm not sure. Otherwise, Rob from lithium sells yoyodyne and STM.
The yoyodyne has some quirks which I've worked out with Fred and he has solid install information on them to prevent my problems.
Pierre, e-mail me or PM me...
QuotePierre, e-mail me or PM me...
Email sent - thanks!
Oh, Oh... CC Me Please ;D
Pierre...email my reply back to me and I'll forward it to Mike above...
QuoteIt does NOT eliminate engine braking. On my 600rr, mine will engine brake up to about 10.5k RPM on the slipper clutch.
Can you downshift without blipping? Well, yes. But I wouldn't recommend it. Can you downshift a few gears without releasing the clutch?
Everyone who has a slipper clutch tries this and about craps themselves when the back end slides like mad.
Can it eliminate engine braking? Yes - the STM clutches have different springs so you can adjust the engine braking down to nothing (although that will wear you clutch faster)
Can you downshift without blipping? hell yeah, i have never done it on any of my bikes without slipper clutches so why not do it with one
Can you downshift a few gears without releasing the clutch? see above - i guess you need to ask a few more people Jeff
pull in the clutch, bang the down shifts and dump it. No rear wheel lock. Great for certain turns and going into turns like a turn off a straight. Pull it in, click 3 down and dump it.
Okay, you'll get many opinions on the topic. I gave mine.
Buy one and see what you can get away with. I posted what I can get away with and what I can't, and what is smoothest for me.
Yes, it depends on the type of slipper clutch as well as the spring rate you choose (if you change it).
One other downside (gee, I hope this doesn't conflict with the great wisdom of world champion Aaron Clarke) is that you can lose track of gears if you're not counting since the revs don't necessarily match the wheel speed.
stop your bloody crying Jeff ::)
when you make comments like this
Quote Everyone who has a slipper clutch tries this and about craps themselves when the back end slides like mad.
you should try talking to 'everyone' or maybe just say 'i tried it and crapped myself' instead of proclaiming yourself to be a hell of a lot more experienced than we all know :)
QuoteOne other downside (gee, I hope this doesn't conflict with the great wisdom of world champion Aaron Clarke) is that you can lose track of gears if you're not counting since the revs don't necessarily match the wheel speed.
firstly it's spelt 'Clark' and secondly, you have to count...............
save your money on a slipper clutch and spend it on tires!!. Talk to Super Dave and work on your technique. ya they are cool. Ya you can back your bike in without really trying....but you don't really need one to go fast. I can back my bike in and I don't have a slipper clutch, I just feather the clutch on decel. You can either control wheel hop with good rev matching, slipping the clutch (much like a slipper clutch does) or you can just blip the throttle when the rear wheel starts to hop.
If you want to go faster, just give it more GAS!!! :)
Thanks for all the great info guys!!!
I got some head-scratching to do
Quotestop your bloody crying Jeff ::)
LOL!
;D ;D ;D
With a properly adjusted slipper and proper engine tune you can have it where it's idiot proof as far as no wheel lockup. With some of the kit boxes you can even adjust engine braking in every gear with acuation of the secondary throttle flaps.The slipper clutch is probably the best way to make a poor rider better.
A Nelson?
Daytona? ;D
Quote.The slipper clutch is probably the best way to make a poor rider better.
LMFAO..........
;D ;D ;D
LOL
Sorry I don't have all the worldly experience you do Aaron. Well, that and I don't talk to anyone. anywhere. ever...
I made a general statement. You made a specific one.
Yes, I will concede that under specific circumstances, you can drop 5 gears and dump the clutch with no wheel slide, and virtually no RPM gain (all with no blip). However, for the context of the thread, I went with an out of the box configuration, referencing experience and comments from multiple users of both STM and Yoyodyne slipper clutches over multiple different bikes.
Jim's last sentence is probably the most sensible that I've heard on the topic.
I'll just stop now instead of being a d1ck
Well after careful consideration and Jeff's advice I am going to get one. I just don't see paying $1000 for one. There is a thread on the WERA board about a group buy of JTR Slippers. Anyone have any experience with these?
QuoteI made a general statement. You made a specific one.
a general statement would be
'A lot of people who have' a slipper clutch try this and about craps themselves when the back end slides like mad.
a specific statement would be
Everyone who has a slipper clutch tries this and about craps themselves when the back end slides like mad.
Rider and suspensio training is money better spent than a slipper clutch, once you know what you are doing it is worth considering...... listening Jefferey? ;D
Quotea specific statement would be
Everyone who has a slipper clutch tries this and about craps themselves when the back end slides like mad.
I put a slipper clutch in my 636 a couple of years ago...
and Ya I just about crapped myself the first time the rear end came around.
:P
I heard they require more maintenance / adjustment and don't last as long as a regular clutch...
True?
QuoteI heard they require more maintenance / adjustment and don't last as long as a regular clutch...
True?
more adjustment...
more things to mess with at the track...lol
Whatever Aaron.. I'm not going to argue with you.
QuoteThe slipper clutch is probably the best way to make a poor rider better.
Interesting how these became very popular in professional racing when a bunch of 2 stroke racers suddenly found themselves 4 stroke racers.
As a long time 2 stroke racer I find it difficult to enter a turn while having to do all that fiddling with the throttle while downshifting. On 2 stokes I don't blip, I just let the clutch out after each downshift.
QuoteWith a properly adjusted slipper and proper engine tune you can have it where it's idiot proof as far as no wheel lockup. With some of the kit boxes you can even adjust engine braking in every gear with acuation of the secondary throttle flaps.The slipper clutch is probably the best way to make a poor rider better.
Would it be better for a new rider to learn with out a slipper clutch in order to learn it the hard way. like tuff love.
QuoteWould it be better for a new rider to learn with out a slipper clutch in order to learn it the hard way. like tuff love.
My opinion: There are better things for a new rider to spend his/her money on (tires, warmers, suspension, instruction).
My opinion: A slipper clutch can be a huge crutch for a new rider because it can prevent him/her from understanding some of the dynamics fundamental to the operation of a motorcycle.
My opinion: A slipper clutch can HELP a rider who has already spent his/her money on suspension, instruction, tires/warmers/etc AND who understands the dynamics of downshifting quickly, clutch operation, etc, BY reducing the amount of things he/she has to think about while going into a corner and allowing them more concentration on the aspect of cornering itself.
All of this of course is just my opinion...
QuoteWould it be better for a new rider to learn with out a slipper clutch in order to learn it the hard way. like tuff love.
Tuff love...
Everyone should start by racing an RD400 or a CB400F.
And I think most sportbikes will have slipper clutches standard over the next few years.
Actually it isn't a crutch having a slipper clutch. In the next couple of years everything will have one anyway. It is better to learn from the begining to ride with one.
This is one of thoughs everyone knows better threads, right? ;D
If you don't want to spend 1000 dollars on a slipper clutch call or email me. We have a couple of options.
QuoteThis is one of thoughs everyone knows better threads, right? ;D
We already know you don't have any opinions...
;D
So they only slip one way? Grid starts won't slip the clutch?
Correct, they only slip during hard engine braking.
Man this sucks I just wrote a page over an hour long about slipper clutches to have the system boot it because it way too long. D*MN!!! >:( Then to top it all off it erased my whole book I wrote. Can't get it back. I has disappeared in thin air.
I'm just going to write a monthly article on it on my site once I get that up again.
Ohh man I'm still ticked.
Over an hour........ :'(
I've got to go home sometime tonight to my girl. :-*
Later guys I'll be back!!
Jason Farrell
I have many opinions but every time I share one it just makes some people want to fight ;D
Opinion, not on slipper clutches. I have never used one, or had to use one. It would be interesting to know how many people on here giving there all know opinions have used a slipper clutch in a racing application (real race)? And used it the way it was ment to be used? ;)
QuoteWe already know you don't have any opinions...
;D
I've learned how to ride without one...but once I put one on :o The best piece of equipment that I have installed on my bike next to suspension!!
Then again...what do I know ;)
I have the OEM one on the 2005 GSXR. I guess it works good. I still shift as if I didn't have one. Once in a while I can feel it slip when I get a bit hurried. Other than that I can't tell much. Should I just bang down multiple gears at once? Sometimes I even catch myself feathering the clutch lever a bit. Seven years of 600's habit I guess.
What is the best/proper way to use one of these things anyway?
QuoteThis is one of thoughs everyone knows better threads, right? ;D
If it wasn`t there would be no reason for Jim,Rosno, or you to be on here! Wait! Me too! ;D
QuoteIf it wasn`t there would be no reason for Jim,Rosno, or you to be on here! Wait! Me too! ;D
Your just bored!
I used one for two weekends in my 600 but didn't use one in my 1000. I found that it allowed me to enter a corner a gear lower on my 600 and so I had better drive out. I only used it at Blackhawk though and my best example would be in turn one. I used it more to prepare for the drive out of the corner than to prevent a rear wheel slide going in if that makes sense. I thought for sure that I would want one in my 1000 but I learned to ride it without one first and was glad I did. I have a lot more options open to me including purposefully sliding the rear in if I want.
I rode a Ducati with one.
I was capable of focusing more consistent intensity on the front brake.
Additionally, I recognized that the chassis dynamics were different without the anti-squat generated by high RPM back torque.
QuoteI rode a Ducati with one.
I was capable of focusing more consistent intensity on the front brake.
Additionally, I recognized that the chassis dynamics were different without the anti-squat generated by high RPM back torque.
I believe it is actually called pro squat. Pro squat is what is generated when using engine braking. Anti squat is the force applied during acceleration from the chain pulling down on the swingarm which in turn prevents the rear shock from compressing.
Pro squat is when the engine is in deceleration mode. The rear tire is trying to turn the output shaft which in turn makes the bottom run of the chain tight which pulls the swingarm upward or hence the subframe downward which like Dave says would cause a change in chassis pitch. Since he had the slipper clutch it didn't have any pro squat, there just wasn't any effect at all which put more weight on the front end while braking.
Just wanted to make it clear not to confuse anyone.
One area to note that a slipper clutch worked great for me is at gingerman raceway in turn 5 coming into the double apex left hander. When you come into it the engine RPMs are really high in 3rd gear but by the time you get to the second apex you have scrubbed off a bit of speed to and now your RPM's are underneath the powerband. Well you can't really shift down while cranked over so putting it in 2nd while coming in with the slipper clutch really works out great for me since the RPM's are right where I need them coming out of the second apex.
But overall it works great everywhere for me.
Nope, I am talking about anti-squat on a modern production sportbike.
We can go back to some old bikes for squat on deacceleration.
I'm not going into long details on this one though.
Interesting...this may help
Antisquat is suspension characteristic in which the downward force on the rear of a vehicle, caused by the transfer of a vehicle's weight when accelerating, is resisted.
Pro-squat is generated by raising the outer rear pivot relative to the inner pivot. This will decrease forward traction and initial steering, but provide more on-power steering.
Jason very interesting, this is the type of info these boards would be good for. Most of the time it just turns into a circle jerk with the same people leading the way everytime.
Baker
Dave, I'm asking this for my own clarification because I can't reconcile anti-squat being produced while downshifting.
My experience in this in a practical application is on a dyno. Accelerate and you'll see the rear end extend (anti-squat). Drop a few gears quickly or touch the rear brake and the rear end squats back down.
What am I missing?
Let the circle jerk begin. ;D
acceleration VS "drag"
antisquat VS prosquat
Anti-squat is generated by raising/lowering the inner pivot VS Pro-squat is generated by raising the outer pivot
Jeff, I thing some people are confused. ;)
Quoteacceleration VS "drag"
antisquat VS prosquat
Anti-squat is generated by raising the inner pivot VS Pro-squat is generated by raising the outer pivot
Jeff, I thing some people are confused. ;)
Confused ??? Yes a lilttle I have the general concept but if pics were also used to go with the discriptions that would be great. ;D
I guess this gets filed along with how to achieve the correct swing arm angle.
aaaaaaaaaaahhhhhh what the hell I don't know squat..........
I'm a little confused too. I thought when you accelerate that your swingarm actually moves down and when you decelerate that your swingarm moves up. Sorta like when you see those biker dudes at rally's putting their Harleys against a wall and do burnouts. What happens to their suspension?
Anti-squat is a design concept that extends the rear suspension during acceleration, therefore pushing the tire into the ground for maximum traxxion (Dynamics). It also keeps the chassis geometry more constant, as it fights back against the acceleration forces that normally compress the rear suspension and extend the front, causing a bike accelerating out of a corner to run wide. In order to setup the bike to have the desired amount of anti-squat, the swingarm pivot axis and the angle between the swingarm and the ground is varied.
In other words Anti-squat can be increased or decreased, right. But it is still under acceleration NOT Braking, right.
aaaaaahhhh what the hell do I know, I don't even race bikes.
ok hell with all this anti squat..........pro squat stuff...
We need to bring back the ANTI-DIVE forks like on a 1987 Ninja 1000 (ZX1000), 600R, and the ZX750.
Now that's the sh-it!!
;D ;D ;D
As stated by BRG the anti-squat is developed by the angle of the swing arm and the acceleration force trying to drive the rear axle under the bike and thereby jack the frame up. However that same angle will cause squat ('pro-squat' if you will, never actually heard that term before) under deceleration by the deceleration forces trying to pull the rear axle away from the frame and trying to level the swingarm thereby pulling the frame down.
Now if someone has figured out a way to get anti-squat under acceleration and deceleration it's news to me and I would be really interested in learning how that system works.
All that said though I would think that the squat generated by the engine braking would actually be desired to counter-act the back rising due to braking thereby settling the chassis.
Paul
As I was saying.....
I think we all agree. It was originally worded incorrectly.
Nuff Said :P
Agreed that the confusion stems from the wording.
That last part of my post was more of a question though, wouldn't you want the squat generated by engine braking? To pull the back down as the brakes pull the front down? Seems to me if you eliminate the engine braking force then to get the back down you will need to use the rear brake (more).
QuoteThat last part of my post was more of a question though, wouldn't you want the squat generated by engine braking? To pull the back down as the brakes pull the front down? Seems to me if you eliminate the engine braking force then to get the back down you will need to use the rear brake (more).
Yes, you do want it. However, the incredible force of braking
almost completely negates the (pro) squat you're going to get from downshifting
unless you have the rear tire firmly planted on the ground.
People saying they use the rear brake to "settle the chassis" while cornering are correct. Rear brake use CAN settle the chassis by generating that squat to counter the goofy geometry induced by the fork compression and rear end rise from hard braking. However, that "goofy geometry" is really key to being able to actually turn the bike.
Mel, Jeff...
E-mail me and I'll continue. Student thing.
And, Mel...
Belated Happy Thanksgiving! Was driving and doing family stuff.
Jef4y,
Well said, I would have to agree.
Quoteaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhh what the hell I don't know squat..........
I don't want to turn this into the whole circle jerk thing, because I do enjoy reading technical discussions. But, I liked your pun Baker. SQUAT, that was funny. Was I the only one to catch his sense of humor or the only one dumb enough to comment on it and detract from the quality of the discussion? Never mind, don't answer that.
Thanks Bill. I think the discussion is over and thats to bad. This type of thread helps educate us all. Some just are not interested in posting specific info. on topics that will help us all improve, that fine. Funny thing is if you are really interested, all the info. you need is at your finger tips. Its all on the web you just have to look for it...................
If the CCS BBS had more threads like this and people were really interested in helping the discussions would continue. This is why I think the WERA BBS is more informative/interesting, etc.....
Baker
Jeff,
I can see your points, I can see how the slipper could be of some benifit if you were to be able to downshift an extra gear and not get wheel hop but how much wear does this put on the clutch? How often will I shell out $100 or more on disks? Also, what keeps the engine from over revving if one takes that extra downshift as has been mentioned here?
As far as the turn-in issue I would have much less trouble rolling in enough trottle to negate engine braking than modulating rear brake at the entry point. Most likely the combined result of too many pounds, too many years, and not enough experience to reach the rear brake while setting up body position for the corner.
QuoteWe need to bring back the ANTI-DIVE forks
I raced with that stuff.... :P
QuoteJeff,
I can see your points, I can see how the slipper could be of some benifit if you were to be able to downshift an extra gear and not get wheel hop but how much wear does this put on the clutch? How often will I shell out $100 or more on disks? Also, what keeps the engine from over revving if one takes that extra downshift as has been mentioned here?
The clutch slipping prevents the engine from over revving on an extra downshift. Like I said, I can go from 6th down to 2nd with no wheel hop or slide if I do it right. Could I get the wheel to slide during that transition? You bet! But it's easy to go down VERY quick without sliding.
Is it hard on the clutch? Not really. I burned through 2 friction plates but it was because of a problem with my clutch. Yes, your clutch will go quicker, but it's not that bad. It's not like you'll be replacing clutches every weekend. I'll go into next season with my original clutch and having used the slipper clutch all season last year (3 races per weekend, it wound up to be like 39 races total plus practices).
QuoteAs far as the turn-in issue I would have much less trouble rolling in enough trottle to negate engine braking than modulating rear brake at the entry point. Most likely the combined result of too many pounds, too many years, and not enough experience to reach the rear brake while setting up body position for the corner.
Exactly the reason a slipper clutch is a good choice/idea/invention.
Personally, if I had a monstrous attention span and lightning fast reflexes, I could probably do without it. However, since I DON'T, this gives me a couple tenths of a second of extra thought in each corner and that is well worth the cost to me.
All old tech anyway...
" Another interesting internal bit is the sprag clutch that prevents you locking the back wheel when knocking it down a couple of gears with 10,000rpm on the clock (something you do all the time, admit it) there's also a rev limiter that comes in at 10,800rpm to prevent you bending valves with those missed changes (although the six-speed gearbox is a pretty sweet affair)."
Honda had it available on VF750's