How safe is racing...from what I can tell it seems safer than riding on the street!! But what about from a racer's opinion...what do you guys think??
Depends what you consider safe. I know lots more guys who have crashed at track days and racing than on the street. I've been lucky enough to keep things upright, but I pretty much expect that I'll almost certainly go down at some point.
That said, the likelyhood of being seriously injured in a given crash is probably less on the track, due to no oncoming traffic, airfence, run-off areas, and the mandatory safety gear. The immediate medical attention also would make a difference.
So, I guess to sum up my opinion... I'll probably crash more often racing, but with less chance of serious injury.
Racing isn't safe though by any means. Neither are lots of other things. I don't smoke, don't drink and drive, etc. I do race. Pick your poison.
Pretty much "ditto" to what Ridgeway said.
While the speeds are higher while racing than on the street, you at least know where everyone around you is going - you know roundabout when they're going to brake, accelerate, and turn. No soccer moms in SUVs, no retards on cell phones, no motorcyclist-haters swerving at you, etc. Plus there are usually 2-3 guys at EVERY corner, watching you, there to dig your ass out of the tire wall if you crash (thanks guys!) And if you DO get hurt, there's an ambulance 20 yards away, ready to give you the medical attention you need.
Racing is MUCH safer. A lot of racers, after getting into racing, don't even ride on the street anymore. I was one of them. With gas prices being a little ridiculous lately, I've gone back to riding on the street a bit, taking the bike to the train station every morning for the last few weeks (50+mpg on the Harley is better than 29mpg in my GTI, plus free cycle parking at the station.) It's been a long time since I've ridden on the street.... and good God, after being away for so long - I've forgotten how many people do NOT see you. Street riding is hands-down WAY more dangerous than track riding. No contest IMO.
I posted this on a street riding forum. Pete, if you're a street rider, this will pretty much show you the difference:
No doubt that this is a blood sport. Don't try to minimize it, because the fact is that every time you get on a bike, there's a chance that you will die. In my opinion though, there are ways to stack the odds in your favor. Understand that I was riding when the first GSXR knocked my KZ1000 off the top of the hot streetbike list. I've been doing this longer than a lot of you guys have been alive. I've seen some things I'd like to forget, and lost some pals I'd like to have back. It's all just a part of the game.
I still have nightmares about flashing red and blue lights, sobbing friends, grim-faced policemen.... I've seen a number of great, bloody, moaning pieces of meat laying on the highway. It's sickening to be able to see the insides when the person is still alive and in pain. It's no fun to kneel next to someone and try to bullshit the guy who knows he's dead, but just hasn't quite died yet. Then there are the dead ones....
I've never seen a bloody chunk of meat at the racetrack. I've seen a bunch of broken bones, plenty of concussions, and one death at the track, but that was ruled a stroke while racing, so he'd have been just as dead reading the paper at home. Yeah, guys die at the track, but not even CLOSE to as fast as they die on the street. I'd be surprised if the track kills more than ten a year, worldwide. If you're gonna play, those are pretty good odds.
Really, I feel that the track is much more survivable than the street. You have the gear, an open area to fall down if you crash, and an ambulance waiting in case you do actually hurt yourself. If you want to risk riding a motorcycle, it doesn't get sefer than that.
Bravo! Well said. I haven't ridden on the street in about 2 years and i'm not sure if I ever will.
K3 hit a home run.
It usually takes a racer about a year or a year and a half of racing to recognize that they can do more on the race track than they could ever imagine on the street.
I have raced for years and years and years. The pain and suffering that I have had from crashes, most often from my own use of the throttle, have been less than that of a good friend of mine that street rides. I've been on the pavement more often as a result of my trying to provide faster lap times, but my friends opportunity for injury was higher for his street crashes.
Chris is right.
In addition, with your skill rising every time you race you're less and less likely to get hurt. Ever notice that top riders rarely get in BIG time crashes? They'll have their share of get offs, but nothing epic. I've been down about 20 times on the track and only suffered one injury, a broken arm from a highside. Most motorcycle injuries occur from hitting something (or something hitting you) after you've fallen off. That chance is MUCH reduced on the track. I refuse to ride on the street anymore, just too dangerous to be fun for me.
Not to mention that the odds of getting hurt on a PIT BIKE are probably higher than that on the track!!!
I see people getting hurt on zuma's, spree's, and the unforgiving XR-50 (or worse still, the pocketbike), all the time...
i ride both street and race, i quit the street for about 9 years, but now street ride some. I think riding with a group on the street is more dangerous than solo riding, and i tell potential racers that on the track, after i have already lost it, i am flying through the air, have not yet hit the ground, at that moment, i feel safer than most times on the street
Thanks guys. It's what I thought, but it's good to have a professionals opinion. So how do you guys crash most often?? What are the causes of most crashes...what should I work on or watch out for to not crash??
Riding fast on the street (backroads) is suicide!
I've seen decapitations, lost limbs, quads, parayl, etc.
Trackdays are safe IMHO
Racing is dangerous imho, but not near as street.
Bikes are dangerous.
QuoteThanks guys. It's what I thought, but it's good to have a professionals opinion. So how do you guys crash most often?? What are the causes of most crashes...what should I work on or watch out for to not crash??
Not riding smooth causes crashes. I've been in races where I've been passed by someone who looks really ragged and though "I really don't need to pass him back, he'll crash by the end of the race." What's almost sad is that half the time in turns out that way.
Smooth riders usually crash either because they were pushing the envelope ("you don't know where the limit is until you find it") or due to an outside influence, such as getting hit, avoiding another crash, oil on the track, equipment failure, etc.
Some people crash more that others. Guys who gain speed really quick also tend to crash more - finding the limits. Some other guys just don't get the concept of riding - I've seen a guy crash a borrowed bike 3 times in one day, while riding 30 seconds off pace. I'm somewhat conservative, which means I dont make gains as quickly as other guys, but I don't get hurt as much either. I crash about once a year.
There will be guys that can't even how many crashes they've had, I remember all of mine:
Levered rear tire off ground when exhaust hit (Ducati 750SS's with stock exhaust don't have much clearance). Just some cosmetic damage
Massive highside on R6 coming out of second gear corner - found the limit, resulting in a concussion.
Tucked the front on a drying track. Everyone was riding like a pansy on the dry line, unfortunately the only place to pass them was on the not-so-dry line, resulting in a pretty messed up bike after it flew 10 feet through the air. I was unhurt.
Major highside in the rain. Was riding my CR500 motard with a full rain front and shagged DOT rear. Was leading the 600 AM race (win would have given me the championship), had just passed the second place expert. Coming out of the last corner, last lap, in sight of the checker. I knew I had two 600s on my tail so I would need a good drive to get my 60hp bike to the line in front, and dailed in too much. Broken wrist.
Cold tire lowside on my TZ. Doing drills at a riding school, wasn't able to keep heat in the tires. Light damage.
-z.
As a racer with lots of road racing licenses, I find track days to be dangerous.
Why, you ask, Eric?
Various reasons. Experience at speed can be one. Some novice/amateur riders have had a unique opportunity to practice in expert groups. In most situations, you'd have to liken this to a practice that is not normally combined, like a Middleweight/Heavyweight/Unlimited practice session. The comment is usually that there is just less drama.
Amateur riders and some track day riders can loose sight of where they want to be. Rather than maintaining the point that they are at, they can move over four feet to a place that they think they should be without warning. It's not a generalization on all amateur or track day riders, but you're going to have more of that danger in those groups, period.
Why does one crash?
Traction.
If you ride not smooth, you'll force the bike to do something that it can't and you loose traction.
If you don't have a clue about set up, you can loose traction.
If you ride as hard as you can on cold tires, you loose traction.
More importantly, if you ride on cold suspension, you won't have a bike that functions like it will when it's warm, and you loose traction.
Yes, some riders have the ability to decifer information at a different rate than the rest of us. In their world, they have the ability to just save it more than the rest of us that don't have that faster rate of seeing and reacting. They will push the envelope more than most of us. The trick for those riders is to learn how to recognize those feelings of potential crashes, and work on the set up of the motorcycle rather than just riding around and over the saving it from another crash.
Street riding and traction.
Consistency. Very simple. You can go from fair to none in a matter of moments on the street. How can one ride with a 20% safety margin when traction could go from 80% of optimum to 20% after a truck carrying mason sand goes by with a mild transmission leak. You could do the route over and over, but the roads are traveled by all with no real clean spills and dumps.
Is racing safe? No.
Are track days safe? No.
Is street riding "safe"? No. Neither is driving a car, it carries risk, and therefore you ought to have insurance.
Let's face it, much of what we do today is not "safe". You have to develop your skills and choose your risks.
Riding on the street isn't only for guys on sport bikes going fast, doing stunts or looking cool. It's also a means of conveyance to and from work, an enjoyable activity to do with your friends, as well as an adventure, if you load up and take a journey. How safe it is not only depends on outside factors (inattentive grannies, errant critters, and various debris in the road), along with the skill of the rider the prep of the machine, and the weather conditions.
Same goes for track days and racing. The cool thing about track days is that you can learn at your own pace to pick up speed. When I started racing, track days were few and far between, so it was out of the frying pan and into the fire if you wanted a track experience. Racing was the most available game. The abundnace of track day organizers is a good thing, as you can pick your level of comfort and develop your skills.
Racing is a different adrenaline rush. If you want the thrill of competition, even if you're not setting track records, this is where you belong.You can go out there and set yourself up to compete against yourself, the clock, your buddies, or the fastest guy out there. You can do it once a year or as often as your wallet allows you to.
Each activity carries it's own level of risk, you have to decide if any or all of these are right for you.
BTW, inattentive grannies can hit you if you're on a bike, in a car or just crossing the road on foot. Watch out for grannies!
Life - no one gets out alive
8)
Racing can also be safer if the rider is listening to the corner worker. I had Mr. Hansen crash in my corner at T8 at the Autobahn in the catcher's mit on driver's left. When I ran to him I was not yet across the track and about to call in for a hole, he saw me, and without waiting until I said it was safe, he pushed his bike across the track without finding out where the traffic was on the track. That's unsafe. I know he raced well this weekend, but when you crash in a corner, the corner worker is in control and they are the ones keeping you safe. :)
Also, yellow waving flag means NO PASSING. I heard alot of calls about riders passing each other when an ambulance was on track. :-/
QuoteI heard alot of calls about riders passing each other when an ambulance was on track. :-/
Isn't that legal? I seem to recall from the riders class that you can indeed pass when the ambulance is on the track.
No you can not pass. If the corner worker is presenting a stationary yellow, then you may pass. ;) When the ambulance is on track wherever corner he is at, the flag will be waving yellow, and there will be a stationary yellow at the corner before with the ambulance flag waving too.
That's why I think it is a good idea for all riders to take at least 2 days of corner working to learn from our side. ;)
Point of clarification:
When an ambulance flag is being displayed by itself, the rider may pass.
The waving yellow indicates a "no-passing zone".
Most of the time when ambulance is out, we have red flagged the race. But if it is continued due to time factor, your right, you can pass on only ambulance flag. Thanks for adding that in. :)
QuoteMost of the time when ambulance is out, we have red flagged the race. But if it is continued due to time factor, your right, you can pass on only ambulance flag. Thanks for adding that in. :)
Well you said you heard of riders passing when the ambulance on the track. That is not an infraction, so I was confused as to what you were saying.
And the point of no passing is from a line perpendicular the route of the track from that waving yellow flag until after the incident.
Cornerworkers also need to recognize that too. A pass executed prior to that perpendicular line is fair game. Calling in something that is not that can ruin a lot of work. Yeah, not much money to be made, but it IS racing. Not a track day. I understand the safety concern, but rules need to be enforced fairly and consistently.
aPPARantly... some of you ARR not sure if you ARR or ARR not allowed to pass under an ambulance flag...ARR we clear? Do we need to go over the flags?" ;D
it sounds so much better when I say it outloud ::)
QuoteStreet riding and traction.
Consistency. Very simple. You can go from fair to none in a matter of moments on the street. How can one ride with a 20% safety margin when traction could go from 80% of optimum to 20% after a truck carrying mason sand goes by with a mild transmission leak. You could do the route over and over, but the roads are traveled by all with no real clean spills and dumps.
Spoken like a man who may have turned a lap or 2! ;D Very true.
Motorcycles are dangerous by nature. Alot less variables on the track and you have full gear, no curbs or massive spills and you usually have to really try and hit a tree - even at Blackhawk! :D
For the street always watch out for inattentive spyderchick's. There usually to busy sewing to pay attention to the road! :o
Both have their dangers but the track is usually more predictable and the nice safety crew is always watching.
QuoteFor the street always watch out for inattentive spyderchick's. There usually to busy sewing to pay attention to the road! :o
You
obviously have not seen the size of my machine. :o :o :o
Besides, I have Roger drive, then I get to chill. :o ;) ;D
The problem with the ambulance at Autobahn was that it was parked alongside the track, just BEFORE the corner station. That made the PRIOR station the waving yellow station, and THE WHOLE BACK STRAIGHT a no passing zone. I know this, because I was working the station 20 feet past the ambulance. Many passes were made on that straight between turn 10 and the ambulance, and they were all illegal. Unfortunately, we were too busy to catch them all.
Ed Key held a pass until 10 feet past the ambulance, which was perfectly legal. Ever notice how Ed always seems to do the right thing? The other guys need to go back and read their rulebooks.
Not trying to be a jerk here, but I've personally never been called for a flag or blend line violation in seven years. Why do so many others have so much trouble with these things? It's all right there in the rulebook! This weekend I actually watched one guy violate the blend line, get meatballed, do a stop-and-go, and violate it again on the way out! Then he got mad that CCS was singling him out!
I'm with ya...
Double the years and add some, I've only got brought in for one violation. I didn't agree, but you don't argue. You come in, talk, take the medicine, and go back out.