I am disturbed many of my fellow racers have so easily jeopardized our personal safety to satisfy their shortsighted urge to race or to accumulate championship points. I have raced with CCS since the 1980's and I haven't missed a CCS race weekend at Summit Pt in over 10 years..... until this past weekend.
I believe the track at Shenandoah is WAY past any grey area regarding safety for motorcycle racing and I refuse to race on it. (I have ridden on the track as a rider representative during CCS and WERA safety evaluations). Our best opportunity as racers to take a stand and make a statement was this first event. Now, the decision makers at CCS/Clear Channel have been given the message by those of you who raced last weekend, that we have no minimum standards for our safety.
It's not about "being afraid" to ride on the new track. We put ourselves at risk everywhere we race. But when we race, we take reasonable precautions to minimize our risk. We wear helmets and leathers. We ensure our bikes are functioning properly with good brakes. We ride competitively, but we ride in control so we don't jeopardize ourselves or our competitors.
To race on a track we know to be unsafe is like racing on a bike we know has a leaking oil seal that could fail. Or a bike with a missing masterlink clip that can throw a chain. Either one is a potentially catastrophic accident waiting to happen that can seriously hurt you, and those around you.
In our personal lives, in business, and in sports, we are treated by others based on how we treat ourselves. If you fool around on your spouse, if you don't honor your part of a contract, or if you cheat to win a game, you are showing you have no respect for yourself. Others will see that and will also treat you with the same lack of respect.
We have to DEMAND from the race promoters certain minimum standards. If we do not, the standards will inevitably decline. This applies to holding races at safe facilities, having enough corner workers and ambulances, fairly enforcing the rule book, accurately maintaining the point standings, and all the other essential functions of a racing organization.
I remember racing at tracks with no flush toilets, no hot showers, no electricity, dirt pit areas, 3 hour registration and tech inspection lines, 14 year old corner workers, no PA systems and other substandard conditions we now take for granted.
Send a message to CCS and the track owners that Shenandoah is not safe and we will not compromise our standards for $5.00 trophies or a few points.
I believe my fellow racers who participated this weekend have taken our sport a giant step backwards and I am disappointed.
I forgot to sign my John Hancock....
MrFastGuy is Arthur Diaz CCS #1 and WERA #83.
(18 year CCS veteran and self appointed safety advocate)
Why do people judge something before they try it??? cause its soooo odd that we got threw a hole weekend on such a "dangerous" track with out anyone getting hurt. Is it cause people wernt trying??? no. I for one had fun!!! and I know that most people I talked to had fun as well!! You have to try it before you judge it!!!! But please dont try to encourage people to join on your bandwagon because thats the way you feel. Encourage people to make up their own minds AFTER they try it.
As for the track its self. It has more grip than a rabid pit bull! lol. but really its insane how much you can load the front and not push it. I was even trailing it in to turns in the RAIN!!!
But enough already... JUST TRY IT! do a track day, do the friday practice, do one sprint. And after that if you dont like it, dont ride it. Its not like now that this track is open all others will close. but if you want my 2 cents on the track, IT ROCKS!!!! hell I pre-registered, and once I did the practice I added races!!! I went all out in every race, just in case people watchin couldnt tell!!
THis is nothing new. It's just like the TPM airfence we can use but CCS will not put up. Same thing. You bring up the airfence and they tell you it takes an army to put up, maintain and take down when the truth is it only takes a couple of people.
I decided to sit out this weekend to hear what people had to say. I'm still waiting for some race reports but my guess is people are scared to voice their opinion.
Oh well....at least WERA was smart and changed the September race to the main track..I still don't understand why CCS didn;t jump all over that date.
njracer
Art, with all do respect....
I don't think ANYONE forced anyone, this past weekend, to come out and race. They made the decision on their own. Shenandoah seems to me (from a cornerworkers perspective) to be an extremely technical course. Yes, there's lots and lots and lots of jersey barriers, but the majority of those jersey barriers are covered by foam bails and/or airfence. And I'm not saying that the track completly and 100% safe....and, in the same sense, no track is 100% safe. There's always going to be incidents no matter what the situation or layout of the track.
I saw quite a few "get-offs" this weekend. Each of them was fairly low-speed and every rider got up and walked away. One rider did make impact with a foam bail on Friday and the ambulance was dispatched, but that rider got up and was not transported to the hospital. In fact, zero riders were transported. Can you tell me the last time zero riders were transported to a hospital during a weekend on the Summit Point circuit? I think it's been several years.
I'm not trying to say anyone is right or wrong for racing or not racing due to their personal opinion. Just stating what I observed and my .02.
I had a great time racing this past weekend. I found the track to be very fun and challenging. This was the first Summit motorcycle event that I've been to this year, be it racing or cornerworking, that someone wasn't MEDIVACed must less even moderately injured.
The speeds are so slow that you'd be lucky if you even slid off the track. A lap time of 1:39 equates to an average speed of just 58mph. Lap record speed about 62mph average.
I found that I'm more cautious and leary on the main course. There are more places on the main that I would not want to crash. I felt just as comfortable as at Barber. Much of that is due to the great and consistent traction and relative smoothness, things that can't be said about the main course.
??? Art,
I understand your passion for the sport. I haven't been racing that long,but I have endured all of those conditions. In some ways I believe this is still a fledgling sport in this country,and we take what we can get. On the other hand we have a wealth of experience in racing amongst our rank's to come up with a solution to this dilemma. Blaming people for wanting to race dispite the short comings of the new circuit is misdirected. We need to join together to keep improving what we have to work with. I don't see investor's lining up to build us new track's.I ask you as a( Champion )of our sport,to help us with these issues. I was there this weekend but I can't say I raced, but I rode the track enough to see that there was alot of room for improvement.I pray that those are made before someone get's hurt. My hat's off to all the talented rider's that braved the course this last weekend. They rode FAST,but mainly they rode SMART. We need your voice on our side. You know me. I love this sport as much as anyone. All I want is for it to grow. Maybe someday it will be as popular as (I dare to say) NASCAR. Feel free to respond,I value your opinion.
Anybody else care to take a crack!!!
Nobody forces racers to ride the IOM TT but they come out anyway. I didn't make it this last weekend because I had to go to work on Monday and I didn't feel like riding 9/10th's the whole weekend. It was my choice. I felt the track was unsafe to a point and CHOSE not to ride. I don't think CCS is at fault for having an event at Shennie I think that it was our own personal choice to either race or not to race.
I raced at the track this weekend and I can say that I didn't feel comfortable going at a race pace bar to bar with someone. There are too many places to get hurt if something goes wrong. There aren't many safe passing zones and I think it would be a problem if more people showed up than what did, not to mention there might not be enough parking area in the pits. Therefore I just rode at 9/10th pace just to be safe. In general I thought the track layout was good and fun but alot has to be done to make it safer. I talked to Bill Scott, the owner, and expressed my opinion on what needed to be done.
Also, just because nobody got injured doesn't mean its a safe track. I think most people were riding smart. I would just hate to see somthing happen to someone like Vincent Haskovec before they decided to change it.
I really didn't like the track too much this weekend. There really isn't too many places to pass on the track, and I didn't like racing that close to the wall going through the chicane on the front streight. I really didn't feel comfortable on the track. The one thing it did have was grip, and alot of it, even in the rain. If I wasn't running for points I don't think I would run it again, but I had to race there being I missed the last 2 events.Don't get me wrong I had a great time this past weekend and there was some good racing, but I just had to hold back and I really couldn't give it my all on that track. I think if there is a bigger crowd there in October, there could be some problems.
so for those that did race it this time...what are your thoughts if nothing is changed and it is run as is for the Oct event? will you go?
Good Question!!!
I agree w/ Art.
The fact that WERA felt that the track was not safe and rescheduled to the main course made my mind up that I wasn't going to race. It would of been interesting if there were more available dates on the main course if CCS would of rescheduled or would of stayed w/ Shenandoah.
Some riders I spoke with stated that they were racing because they were in the points hunt for a Championship. In the past new tracks were run the last race of the year and weren't points paying. If this wasn't a points paying race how many people would of raced?
The fact that there are tires or foam bails protecting "most" of the jersey walls does nothing for me. In 2001 my friend and teammate was killed on the main course when he hit an unprotected concrete wall. Guess what there are tires in front of that portion of the wall now. Who knows what would of happened if the tires were there before he hit the wall. The outcome may of been the same for him but you never know.
Eventhough no one was seriously injured or transported, does by any means make it a safe track. It will only be a matter of time before racers push harder, ride faster and the lap times drop creating situations were someone is seriously injured or killed because of the close proximity of the walls.
I am glad that no one was seriously injured.
Alan
How big were the grids?
i am not in the points at all, i had a blast there, i will be back, i am still scared of turn 1, but the rest of the track is so slow i doubt most accidents will make it to the wall. i am also scared in turn 4 at summit main, turn 1 ,5, and 9 at pocono, and the complete pit road at barber, i just go 9/10 at all of these.
i would really loke them to smooth out the transitions in the chicanes though, especially the sponge bob chicane before the finish line
grids were all small, not even enough for dunlop money,
PS, Art did ride there, he was a participant in the first test there ever
Well said Art. I was tempted, but didnt go. I have run the entire WERA schedule this year and was glad that Shawn Clark made a descision to not race there. He did listen to riders and held tests at the track also. I rode the track in two different configurations with Nesba as a CR to evaluate the place. The only difference from what I can see was that there was no chicane there when I rode it, other than that the damn walls were just to close. Foam walls...blah..they should design these damn places so there shouldnt even be a need to have foam walls in place. I would like to see CCS move to a Main date for Oct. The walls seem so close that say you do crash and dont hit a wall..ok, suppose you get out of shape and save a potential crash, now your still on the bike and perhaps heading toward a nice fat wall with some foam in front of it and what, 15 feet between the track and wall.....
I agree with Rick. The chicanes are the worst part. And ( Sponge Bob ) should be completely removed. Who's idea was that?????
Some statistics for ya .. (from race control)
Including the LP Practice Day ..
19 Fall Downs - of those 14 continued or rode in on their own. 5 Crash Truck rides (1 was because of a suspected oil leak). 2 Ambulances were dispatched .. but one of those was for a bicycle accident. The other was on the track day and that guy just wanted an air conditioned ride back to his paddock.
So .. pretty clean weekend considering.
From Registration Clerks..
When we asked everybody "Did you have fun?" .. they all said a resounding YES.
The other comments were that they were exhausted because it was a very technical track and they needed to be in top notch physical condition.
Someone said it reminded them of European tracks.
European go-kart track's maybe ;)
Quoteso for those that did race it this time...what are your thoughts if nothing is changed and it is run as is for the Oct event? will you go?
Yes, I WILL BE THERE. I need all the points i can get to win the AM Thunderbike championship. Just have to get enough points to get in front of the current points leader. ;)
Part of enough run off is not limited to falling. What if you have a brake problem or ride off the track at speed, is there enough run off in those cases?
Why? Are you thinking on running here?
Thank you everybody for the quick and thoughtful replies. While I am always right about everything, all the time....just ask any of my ex-girlfriends :), I can appreciate the right of other riders to race on Shenandoah if they feel it is safe to do so. Most riders have not had the opportunity to test the track for themselves prior to this weekend so they could not make their own evaluation until now.
While the track's tight nature and low average speed probably contributed to the reduced seriousness of the crashes that did happen, I still see the potential of very serious collisions between riders and concrete. Because we were fortunate to not have a serious incident this weekend, it is dangerous to conclude the track is OK. Because you are fortunate to not have a serious incident after getting drunk in a bar and driving home, it is dangerous to conclude it is OK to drink and drive.
I don't advocate anyone forcing anyone to race or not to race. But for those of us who believe the track is unsafe, we ARE being forced to choose between racing on an unsafe track and pursuing championship points in the Mid-Atlantic region. >:( THIS IS THE PROBLEM. If there were no points at Shenendoah races "forcing" racers to choose between points and safety, then I wouldn't have a problem. Well... that's not entirely true. I would have a problem because I would be gravely concerned about my friends/competitors who did choose to race there.
I think we have a responsibility to ourselves and each other to reflect long and hard over the safety conditions at Shenandoah, and to collectively make a decision ourselves. The worst thing we can do is just blindly accept things.
QuoteYes, I WILL BE THERE. I need all the points i can get to win the AM Thunderbike championship. Just have to get enough points to get in front of the current points leader. ;)
hey I think that would be me :D
so Chris how'd you do? I'm Guessing that I'll have to run the October event - unless you aren't going to VIR that is ;D
Paul, What happened ?? I saw Eric.
Sounds like he's gunnin for ya!!
Hey guys look at the results they are now posted, turnout was pathetic . No wonder people had a great time . 6-8 bike grids wtf . How can you call that racing. So as long as there are under 10 bikes on the grid the track is safe. What a joke...
I guess the turnout shows you how safe people feel about the track.
QuotePaul, What happened ?? I saw Eric.
Sounds like he's gunnin for ya!!
wasnt too sure about running the new track...and with doing Roebling and Barber and a week in the Outer Banks in between + work - was just really burnt out :P
Quotehey I think that would be me :D
so Chris how'd you do? I'm Guessing that I'll have to run the October event - unless you aren't going to VIR that is ;D
I did pretty well there, the grids were very small, but I was doing battel with 178 Joe Caulghy.We were doing lap times of 1:38 / 1:39 I will be at VIR and the double points event at SP. Don't really want to run that TT course again, but gotta do what I gotta do.
Rain all day Saturday had as much to do with small grids as anything else. It is the same problem at the Summit Circuit, it rains and 50% of the field becomes no-shows. If it is forecasted to rain over the weekend, turnout drops by 30%-50% so weather is still a huge factor regardless of the track you race on.
There is not a track in this country that has enough run-off to accommodate a complete brake failure at the end of its fastest section. Period.
Fastest speed attained at Shenandoah was 115 mph on the bridge straight where the largest amount of run-off is located. (About the same amount of run-off as there is in turn 3 on the main course.) Second fastest area was on the front straight coming up to the "Sponge-Bob" chicane at 105 where there is no wall to hit if you blow it going in. Apex speed of the front straight chicane was 35 mph, coming out at 40-45 and reaching the fourth fastest area, turn one at 80 mph. (Turn one at Shenandoah has more run-off than turn 4 at the main track and a slower entrance speed.)
Roger Edmondson said it best, "Zeal without knowledge is a dangerous thing." Those who rode there under race conditions have the knowledge necessary to make a decision. Those who did not ride must rely on the knowledge obtained by others, either way the decision is up to each individual rider and all we can hope for is that your decision is based on correct information, not speculation from those who did not experience the track with its chicanes and safety measures in place.
Are you guy's happy now :o You just woke up the sleeping giant ::)
I've seen bigger grids at roebling in the rain.
QuoteAre you guy's happy now :o You just woke up the sleeping giant ::)
oh like you've never done that before! ;D
Who me?? I'm the quiet one ;)
yea ok ::)
here is a question to those that raced there? I rode a test day and it seemed like the track would be very one lined with almost nowhere to pass, i also heard that from a couple people that raced there. Any more opinions on that aspect of the GoKart track. How about some more posts from those of you that raced last weekend. Would you be comfortable with 35 bikes on that track? Would it be an advantage to be on a 600 vs a 1000, looks like Ryan you didn't race your R1 from the results.
The R1 has stock suspension and the shifter was grinding the ground in one turn causing it to shift back into neutral. so when i get that fixed it will be usable. and the R6 handles better. and yes I would be fine with 35 riders on the track at once. cause we arent going 35 wide in to turn one.
as for the roebling turnouts, shenandoah had larger grids!!! look it up.
But enough already!!! stop the whining! you dont hear FUSA guys crying about having to run Loudon. A track with ZERO run off in more than a few turns, oh and there's the trees on the edge of the track, oh yeah and that huge boulder 10ft off the track. oh and if you think that the "sponge bob" bairrer is bad loudon has the opening in the nascar wall that you have to go through. So go try that track and come back to the shenandoah and you will be amazed how much safer it looks.
My point is every track is as safe as you make it! This sport is not safe to start with. just like every track you adjust your speed with the conditions. if there is a section that makes you nervous, adjust your speed. It sounds like some people on here are trying to convince them self. heck in a lil over a month we have daytona. With a wall around the whole thing. and people still get above the white line on the banking and hold it wide open, with only inches to spare, and the fastest trap speeds we see. but no one complains. I guess what Im saying is that this shouldnt be this big of a deal. They spent a lot of money building this track and they arent just gonna re-build it cause some people dont like it. I know you all have heard this one "if you dont have anything nice to say, dont say anything" we all should be thanking Bill scott for trying to provide a new track to ride on in our region. I am cause now I have 2 tracks to race on 30 minutes from my house ;D
Ryan125...great post...no matter where we race...or what track...it's still safer than on the street...it's all a personal opinion to race or not... we all should just respect those that decide to race a track or not - and when you do race just go out a with a clear head and be safe - for yourself and fellow riders.
we only have 2 races left for the season here in the MA region...unless you're doing Daytona that is. after that we'll all be doing the same thing...waiting for the schedule to come out for 2006 - and trying to get the money/sponsorship together...schedule time off work...to go out there and do something that most people wouldn't even think of trying..but something that we call fun! IF we picked apart every track...I'm sure they all could be safer. But one mans
money gave us another track to run on...may not be the best - but it's there...and like they said...if you build it they will come.
I like Ryan enjoyed racing at the Shenandoah Circuit. Is it a perfect track? No, but non are. Please remember that as was mentioned many times during the race weekend, "This track is a work in progress". They are looking for our input on improvements to make this track better. If they take our feedback and make improvements we all win. The negative approach will only keep things from improving.
This track has by far the most consistent wet grip of any track I have ridden. I also had 2 crashes and in both cases they were at very slow speeds and I was able to pick the bike up and continue. Regarding passing, there are more places than you can first imagine to pass. I found several while racing and also when passing lapped traffic. It is like any track the more you ride it them more your eyes open up to what is possible.
If you are trying to decide if this track is safe, please just spend a day on it and make up your own mind. Please do not let negative comments blind your own judgement. If you don't feel comfortable, don't race there. If you see things that can make it better speek up.
Joe
#281
HG Racing
Hey newbie,
Of course you liked it. You guys were the big weiners ;D
Having ridden it myself and having the dubious honor of being the only ambulance transport... :P
Maybe it's because I learned to race at Loudon and so my expectations are different, but I didn't think this track was unreasonable. Sure, there are places I wouldn't want to run off at 120mph- and look at that- there are measures in place to keep speeds well below that. There weren't any turns that scared me more than t4 on Main, or heaven help me Loudon's Bowl.
And for those that say, "Well, they should just switch it to Main instead" maybe you should do a little homework on event organizing. If it were as simple as calling someone up and saying, "Hey, could we use Main instead?" don't you think they'd have done it?
Someone else that likes the bowl. The last time i raced there i highsided in turn 6. I hit the wall 2' from the air fence. 3 month's in a chair ,& 4 surgery's later I came to Summit. I've never looked back.I have alot of faith in the MARRC org. If their around I feel safe. Nof said!!
You have GOT to learn to avoid breaking things when you crash, Kevin..... ;D
hello all.
i m would like to join and share about shenan. track.
i m AM 129 , new to racing (april was my first track day and june was my first race)so as you can see i m a newB .
i had a total blast at shenandoah and really love the track, yes it is a very europ. track, very technical and a rider track more than a fast bike track..the grip was excellent ,and yes a good physical condition is a plus there..
now is the track safe, not totally, but as CCS said they are working on it with the owner..
was i scared...not really, was i slow not really either (1'36's ).
Yes the grids were not the usual 40 and plus racers, but the most of the fast guy's were there, and trust me they were coocking !
So overall if the track need more run off, the sponge bob chicane wasnt that bad, not as bad as going into turn 3 and 4 on the main, or even 4 ot VIR (where there is no run off at all)...
i beleive a good grid position is the key on that track,it is hard to pass, but possible i have been 9 at turn 1 and finish 4..
so as some say , get your own opinion, ride it and then share...if you havn t raced it then i dont see what could be said !
it is the first week end of racing were i see every one go home safe and not in an ambulance...
SO yes i m a newB, yes i had fun at shenandoah and yes i will be there in october..
My $0.02....
I will never race at the Shenandoah Circuit again, unless I'm making a bid for a championship. The track has excellent grip, and some very cool turns, but the "fun factor" was way down for me. I agree that no track is perfect, but there are tracks that are a whole lot better that are available to me. As everyone keeps saying, every rider needs to be responsible for their safety, and there are plenty of other tracks that give me a much better feeling, and I'll be happy to spend my hard-earned money there.
Scott Snyder and I are seperated by 7 points now for the Am LW Supersport championship. It was a 3 point difference going in. We had an incredible battle the last 2.5 laps of the race, passing each other every few corners. I came out on top just barely, and we both agreed that this track definitely does NOT lend itself to this type of racing. I can only imagine the double-points carrot will not help to improve the situation.
I think everyone ran fairly conservative due to the newness of the track and the fact the grids were WAY down. There were actually races with ONE entry. Everyone that I talked to stated that they were there for the points alone.
I'm with Chris -- you'll see me there in Oct for the double points to tie up the Championship (hopefully). But next year? Nope. I'm gonna get smart then and be responsible for my safety. If Summit management deploys airfence / those synthetic haybales ALL the way around, and not just in the few spots that they "think" someone would be "likely" to hit the wall (have we not learned from Haskovec??), then I might consider it.
-Brad