Motorcycle Racing Forum

The Southwest has got to have the worst tracks to race in all CCS. The closest thing we have to a real track is Vegas.

What I am refering to is Firebird. Due to some unknown reason we are going to be racing the west track instead of the main...which is my opinion is a joke. Its unsafe, it has more tar snakes than 50 year old farm roads and more oil on the track than parking spots out front of a convience store.

For christ sake...The west track is a whole 1.1 mile track!

What is stopping us from racing at Cali Speedway? Whats wrong with the track up in New Mexico's state capital? Whats wrong with racing Utah's new track?

It amazes me that nothing is done to help us ride real tracks.

Rant mode off....

WOW, Don't hold back. Tell us exactly how you feel about the tracks in the southwest!

What race weekend are you refering to?

Where is this posted at?

And yes I have to agree with you, the west track is not one of the favorites to race on, but it could be worse. We could have no tracks at all!!!

QuoteWhats wrong with the track up in New Mexico's state capital?

Hey Dave, you should run an SMRI race and see what you think of their track.  If I remember correctly the configuration they use for the motorcycle races is just over 1 mile.

Where else do we have to race?  AMP is out of the question.  FB Main obviously has paying customers every weekend that CCS can't compete with (and I'm not a Main fan anyway, talk about tar strips and safety issues).  CCS raced at PIR long ago... that's a nice safe track, wanna go back there?

CCS can't compete with the Cali market right now (WERA West, WSMC, and AFM), so I doubt we'd be going back soon.

Take what you can get here or make the drive somewhere else.  Until CCS SW starts getting 30 bike grids it's not going to change.

-z.

Tar Snakes, here we come :o

QuoteWhat is stopping us from racing at Cali Speedway? Whats wrong with the track up in New Mexico's state capital? Whats wrong with racing Utah's new track?

Scheduling & track rental fees.

I would think that NM track would pull more riders  due to being a new track and better facility...and as for Cali speedway....run a trackday in conjunction with the race day on Sunday. I would be willing to pay the $250 for the trackday and double my entry fees just to race the same course as the AMA.

We will never have a 30 rider grid with the tracks that we have to choose from. Vegas has a wonderful turnout due to the track and as long as CCS's product is crap...the series will be crap. Plain and simple.

This may seem harsh...but its reality. Its up to the "powers that be" to make this thing fly. After all...CCS is part of a profitable company and can do the same if it focused on some quality race tracks that would draw the crowds.

17 years of being self employed has come down to one simple formula

A good product at a reasonable price with good service will prevail above all. Simple to say...but hard to do. And above all...will never happen if no attempts are made to better a service.  

I really wonder what is going to happen next year.  At the June event it was said that Firebird East will be unavailable to CCS leaving only Firebird West.  As bad as FB East and West are it is still 2 tracks we can race on in the region.

That will leave FB West, Vegas and Arroyo as the only tracks in the region.

QuoteI
This may seem harsh...but its reality. Its up to the "powers that be" to make this thing fly. After all...CCS is part of a profitable company and can do the same if it focused on some quality race tracks that would draw the crowds.

CCS is part of a profitable company, but...

Getting spectators to show up isn't easy.  It's hard to get racers to show up.

First and foremost, racing organizations are NOT responsible for getting spectators there.  Who should be focused on making money?  The organization or a team/rider?  How many press releases have been put out by how many riders?

Frankly, most people went to Laguna to see the GP because Rossi, Nicky, or someone was going to be there.  It's about personalities...not about the FIM, CCS, AMA, AFM, etc.

Riders, teams informational press releases, etc build excitement and bring in the paying customers.  That, as a result, has race tracks paying the AMA and the FIM to come to their track because they can make a profit.

On the flip side, CCS does have to try and get into schedules that are overwhelmed with other motorcycle racing organizations, other car racing organiztions, and other car and bike track day organizations.

Most guys can't just cough up a whole lot of money to pay double to race and another track;  they are trying to follow a series to try and finish well and maybe win a championship.

To think that one organization will always be able to fit your needs is probably too much to ask.  Why not get a license with another organization and race those other tracks when they have an event there?  Might be cheaper than paying double still.

Quote17 years of being self employed has come down to one simple formula

A good product at a reasonable price with good service will prevail above all. Simple to say...but hard to do. And above all...will never happen if no attempts are made to better a service.  

Being a pimp for 17 years does not count! ;D

Dave, look around on the schedule for other CCS regions. How many races do you see at Daytona for the regular florida region? How many races at Mid Ohio? How many at VIR? How about Road Atlanta? Hmmm.......... I guess the big national tracks don't host very many club races do they. I would say there's a reason for that, this is club racing. Want to travel and do all those big tracks? Turn pro and blip off some good qualifying laps and you can race them. Sears Point is a national track, and AFM has races there, hook up with Tom and go do a day up in wine country.

Basically, CCS SW is based in Phoenix. There are no national quality tracks operating in Phoenix that are deemed safe for us to ride. I've raced at PIR 3 times, and although it's a fun track, I wouldn't want to have a club race there for fear of people getting injured with all those walls, especially nascrap 3&4. Firebird main would be feasable but too many local riders think it's unsafe and turnouts suffer. That leaves East and West....unless you travel.

If you decide to go to Albq, let me know, I want to read the post when you get back. They have great facilities, but you think you can't stretch the leg's of that 1000 at other tracks.... Top guys are doing 52 second times. (of course we know you'll blip 48's)

First lets clarify a few things.

"Getting spectators to show up isn't easy.  It's hard to get racers to show up."

First...When I was refering to drawing a bigger crowd I was refering to racers...not fans. Discount me all ya want...but time and time again I have seen the very forumla that I posted work. No insult intend to the fine people that work the SW region....but these individuals out here go at this as a part time hobby(Roger excluded). Only dabbling a toe in the waters of CCS while their head is on their real job shows in the product and the profitablity....period.

I'm not alone on this guys...I have recieved at least a dozen email on this very thing. The question is...do you do something about it or let the series continue down its road of low turn out and crappy tracks. Its obvious to ANYONE that races these events that there is a problem. I have read or heard every excuse in the book as to why this cant be done....yet not one good reason that it CAN be done. I'm sorry guys....I look at things differently and the only reason that I can find for myself when I fail at something is...That I didnt try hard enough.

"  Frankly, most people went to Laguna to see the GP because Rossi, Nicky, or someone was going to be there.  It's about personalities...not about the FIM, CCS, AMA, AFM, etc."

Apples to oranges... Your missing the point.

"On the flip side, CCS does have to try and get into schedules that are overwhelmed with other motorcycle racing organizations, other car racing organiztions, and other car and bike track day organizations."

Do your really think that Rome was built in a day? Do you think that for one minuate that the progress that Roger has had at his track happen over flippin weekend? You guys need to write a book of a 101 excuses.

Yes...its going require a little work, foresight and drive to make this a better region. Yes...it may take a few years to schedule out the tracks in the future. The point is....take the steps to do something about.


"Most guys can't just cough up a whole lot of money to pay double to race and another track;  they are trying to follow a series to try and finish well and maybe win a championship."

My bad...your right. Again...back to the forumla that I first posted. CCS should start working on this instead of making excuses. This way that guy that are running on a budget (myself included) will be able to race at better tracks. Better product, more people race and the cost can be distributed to more racers and....bingo! CCS has more money to do things!

"To think that one organization will always be able to fit your needs is probably too much to ask."

Hello! My point is yet proven again. For christ sake you guys are so out of touch that even when your ears hear it, your eyes dont believe it. I am not alone buddy. Its widely know and there are many good racers that will not run this organization. Get it? Less racers, less money...???


And now to Roger...

Before ya get your pantys all up in a wad in your rear. You are a prime example of taking the steps to better your product. Everytime that I hear or even the last time I was at your track...it has improved. You are taking this one step at a time and progressing. I have no doubt that in the future you will have one of the best tracks in this region. Your working on a limited budget, yet you are still progressing. That is why I will continue to support you and your track. Even if its not an AMA certified track right now...I will bet that it will continue to grow thru your drive, customer service and being an all round nice guy.

And yes....I do intend to go pro...err...or at least give it one hellva try.

QuoteOn the flip side, CCS does have to try and get into schedules that are overwhelmed with other motorcycle racing organizations, other car racing organiztions, and other car and bike track day organizations.

On a side note, I think it's partially up to the organization to make sure they get the dates well ahead of time, before track day orgs can get them.  I'm not saying they don't do that now, but even the tracks themselves should (ideally) let the organizations have first preference at date selection.

After that, it's just a matter of competing with people who'd rather do trackdays than race, mainly because there are so many trackdays companies out there now.

While you compliment Roger on his track in New Mexico you fail to realize it IS his track , is it not?? Or at the very least he manages it, correct. I am sure if Randy Stem (the man in charge of the Southwest Region) owned his own track or managed one, that things would probably be a little diifferent. You have no clue as to what it takes to schedule tracks based on their availability or hiring employees who do this as a "HOBBY". I work for Randy because of my passion for racing motorcycles and the ton of respect I have for him. To me, this is not a hobby. This is a close as I can be to racing right now while not actually racing. Everyone who works in the Southwest Region busts their asses off every weekend to try and make things run as smooth as possible.  Yes, everyone wants a mirror smooth track with miles of run off, with thousands of fans lining the bleachers chanting your name as you grid for your race. Problem is, where are you going to find these types of tracks?

Shaking my head while I read the following....

"While you compliment Roger on his track in New Mexico you fail to realize it IS his track , is it not?? Or at the very least he manages it, correct. I am sure if Randy Stem (the man in charge of the Southwest Region) owned his own track or managed one, that things would probably be a little diifferent."

Thank you for once again proving my point. You dont have to ownership to run a racing organization correctly. Ownership does not automatically give you the key to success...effort and constant steps to improve your product does. To insinuate that Roger just "happen" upon his growth over the last year due to "ownership" is an insult to every effort he has made. I would be willing to bet that the challenges that Roger has in one month of owning his track makes corridinationg the CCS a cake walk.

What your basically stating is that because Roger owns his own track its more important to him. That if Randy owned his own track it would be better because he would have vested interest. Well, well...reads, smells and shows like this racing region is a weekend job.

Look I understand that this region cannot support full time employees. I understand that they work their rearends off on "the weekends". I also understand that there opportunities that if approached with some sort of effort and foresight that would make this region better by a 100%.

"You have no clue as to what it takes to schedule tracks based on their availability or hiring employees who do this as a "HOBBY"."

No I dont...that I agree upon...for the moment. But 17 years of business, speaking at business classes at major universitys about running a business and years of learning from the successes and mistakes gives me some creed. One thing that remains consistant throughout my business career is the basic formula that I presented in one of my first posts. In short....Half..s efforts get Half..s results.

"Yes, everyone wants a mirror smooth track with miles of run off, with thousands of fans lining the bleachers chanting your name as you grid for your race. Problem is, where are you going to find these types of tracks?"

 :-X Arghhh!!!! You see walls and make excuses. Me...when I come to a wall I dont turn around and throw my hands up in the air. I'll try to get over the wall, go around it...Heck...I'll even try to dig under it until I can make it past it and in some case...I just might blow it up. Point is...I keep pushing forward. Take the advice, take the steps, give a little more effort and see what ya get in return. That is all it comes down too.

Good luck guys...

Recognise that I'm a racer, and I don't represent any organization that sanctions races.

CCS requests scheduling dates well in advance.  CCS as a company owned by CCE does have certain restrictions, however, on some issues.  Contracts, etc., I believe that have particular time frames etc.  Those issues need to be taken up with CCE.

The proliferation of track day organizations blossomed early in this century.  It's a new thing, and there are occasions where they have muscled into dates previously only held by racing organizations.  Even club racing organizations find that it is necessary to have weekend dates just to have a staff and a few spectators.  Track day organizations used to be on weekdays, now they are paying extra to get prime weekend dates.  Made things a lot harder for racers and the racing organizations.

Racers seem to come in cycles.  Seldom do many racers stay in the sport longer than two to three years.  Reasons are too much travel, too much money, too much time.  Occasionally, too few tracks, but that alternative is easy to deal with by gettting another license and "going racing".

Even if some only delt with some of this racing stuff as a hobby, in the years that CCS has been around, pretty much everything has been tried.  In that time, racers still leave the sport at the same rate.

Loudon is a race track with very little run off and it's lined by walls.  They get probably 1000 entries for each event.  The other tracks that used to be "close" are now gone.  

I think there's a whole lot of business experience in CCS, AFM, WERA, etc.  Actually, I know that.  I'm not sure what you could propose that would substantially change anything.

Quote...able to race at better tracks. Better product, more people race and the cost can be distributed to more racers and....bingo! CCS has more money to do things!

Some "better race tracks" cost unbelieveable amounts of money.  I don't own a racing organization, but I rent race tracks.  Something you might try doing yourself with some good ideas.  Honestly, it's very hard.  

There are times when renting a popular pro level track, even with extra entry fees, will still cost more than what can be brought in.  Then you've got to make that loss up with the good regular tracks where you get 400 to 600 entries at.  Not every event breaks even.

And then there are things that one can't explain.

Case in point, April of 2001 had the highest entry road race event ever at Road America, a pretty cool track that's on the AMA schedule...I hate the track myself, but that's another story, which CCS had like 2025 entries.  In May of that year, entries dropped of across the board.  My school program entries dropped off.  Was strange.  After talking, we recognized what those things were, but they were issues that were beyond anyone's control.  I won't get in to details.  You sound knowledgeable, you can figure it out on your own.

Everyone has an opportunity, also, that if they can do it better, put your money where your mouth is and go for it.

QuoteTo me, this is not a hobby. This is a close as I can be to racing right now while not actually racing. Everyone who works in the Southwest Region busts their asses off every weekend to try and make things run as smooth as possible.  Yes, everyone wants a mirror smooth track with miles of run off, with thousands of fans lining the bleachers chanting your name as you grid for your race. Problem is, where are you going to find these types of tracks?

I agree, we need to make the best out of what is available to us now and enjoy it! ;)

About a month ago there was a post on this board that said something to the effect of "Discount on entry fees!". All that said, when most of us read the thread we found that it was as simple as helping promote our own club. Passing out flyers, posters and the like.
Some of us got pretty excited about the idea and jumped at the mere thought of being able to become more involved and to expand interests of other enthusiasts. We were glad that CCS had made a post on this board, only to find out the it was for the MW Region only, run by a different administration.

Dave mentioned: "CCS requests scheduling dates well in advance.  CCS as a company owned by CCE does have certain restrictions, however, on some issues.  Contracts, etc., I believe that have particular time frames etc.  Those issues need to be taken up with CCE."

I hope that this is an asumption based only on your "un-associated" relationship with CCS/CCE. This is a re-hashed subject and appearantly by all indications the SW will not survive with only 2 tracks to run, no help from CCS / CCE and a pallet full of rules or excuses that prevent our region to survive. What do they call it? Oh, yeah, "thinking out of the box". If CCS / CCE gave a $hit about this region, then why not try something new?

Track days you mentioned? Agreed, but where is the commitment to buck up from the producer to compete for the market to gain some profit (BIG picture)? (or break even). I don't see any movement from CCS / CCE to help the SW / Pacific survive. I have been involved in Track Days (in Ca. of all places!) are we still talking about $6500- for both days? How about in your neck of the woods? I don't know what it costs in the MW, MA, GP or FL.  

As for other the other clubs, AFM and WERA; what has been their formula for success? They are still in Ca.

No offense to the SW crew.  :)

QuoteDave mentioned: "CCS requests scheduling dates well in advance.  CCS as a company owned by CCE does have certain restrictions, however, on some issues.  Contracts, etc., I believe that have particular time frames etc.  Those issues need to be taken up with CCE."

I hope that this is an asumption based only on your "un-associated" relationship with CCS/CCE. This is a re-hashed subject and appearantly by all indications the SW will not survive with only 2 tracks to run, no help from CCS / CCE and a pallet full of rules or excuses that prevent our region to survive. What do they call it? Oh, yeah, "thinking out of the box". If CCS / CCE gave a $hit about this region, then why not try something new?

First, I'll stand up for the CCS staff, even when I don't agree with them.  They are looking out for your region, and others.  Recognize that CCS staff members are as much "racers" as the ones that are on the track.  It's a lot of time off from something else they could be doing.  Some are former racers that decided that this would be a way of serving others like themselves, racers at one time.

Some of the  CCS regions in the west did not exist that long ago.  So, first, the fact that they are attempting to expand into a pretty saturated market of sorts is a gamble.  Meanwhile, in some areas of the Midwest, there is no other game than CCS;  WERA left years and years ago.

Potentially, right now, CCS is developing their schedule.  Tracks might even have the CCS dates in hand.

But, if Joe Blow's Track Riding dot com decides they really need a particular date...and they are willing to pay more...

Well, the game changes.  Or, the track is there to make money, the track ownership decides to promote an AMA event, a NASCAR event, whatever, that date will make maybe hundreds of thousands of dollars vs the regular track rental...

Then, one track has to make a change to the schedule...and the others have to change accordingly.  Sometimes, a date could get bumped.  

Regardless, contracts have to be signed.  Sometimes tracks drag their feet on this.  

Not fun and games.  Not like scheduling oil change appointments or hotel rooms...unless you're trying to do it near Laguna for the GP...I've had those kind of problems with my school...

QuoteDave, look around on the schedule for other CCS regions. How many races do you see at Daytona for the regular florida region? ...

We get two races at Daytona (March and ROC)...

But we do get THREE races at Homestead each year (Homestead is much nicer).

Plus we get JenningsGP...

And hurricanes.

Hey, Four more reasons to move to Florida!  Yippee!

 ::)

I have been avoiding this post but cannot bear to anymore.  
Stone- we appreciate racers who think out of the box. In fact in the 20+ years I have worked with the SW region of CCS and PRRO before that, we have had 100's (no joke and probably a low stab) of racers with initiative.  I can count on two hands how many racers still race with us regulary who did five years ago.  Where is the racer's commitment?  I know that is not fair- you guys and girls pay lots of cash to race- but us boys and girls pay lots more in nearly free time to get you out there.  To say we are not commited is complete BS and I challenge you to look ANY CCS worker who has been standing in the rain or baking sun for two days making less than $7 an hour to help put on a race, and tell them they should take this more seriously.  If the home office cannot afford more people to work full time in the home office, can they afford to pay us to do the same out here?  Has Heidi Stem ever told you about Sunday nights where the weekends paperwork must be in to the CCE office by 5am?  No trouble, just an allnighter after a weekend of racing, and hey, she can do the things she should be doing during the week next weekend right? What a slacker that woman is...  Stone if you have trouble understanding, talk to in person or email or even call your  race director.  Or how about a nice professional letter to the CCE brass?  Haven't done that yet?  Did you grab any of the CCS cards at the last two races with tthe schedule on the back and distribute them to any rider/racers out there?  Have you done your part to help yet?  

As far as why a track day can rent a track for so little but we can't?  Insurance is much higher for a race than a 'test and tune" day.  Check your own life or medical insurance- probably does not cover 'racing' incidents (if I had a dollar for every racer who refused ambulance transport because his insurance would not cover a bill that started at a racetrack, must be why slip and falls have such a high incidence rate on Sat./ Sun.).  Stone, I welcome you to bring your new ideas in a nice written format so we can go over them with you and present them to Kevin for his approval who can then send them to CCE and when they are done totaling up the millions the of dollars Cher and the Gravedigger have made them, maybe they will invest a few million in CCS.  If you have great ideas though- seriously we will listen, but do not get hurt IF we say it has been tried.  Meanwhile I will go to sleep now, I have a long day of not giving a sh#t about CCS and its racers to do tomorrow.  Man, wonder how that will pay the mortgage?

Yeah, baby!

Agreed...as a one of the few racers that's been around a lot longer than two, five, or ten years...

Now that I have slept on that answer, of which I retract nothing, I have this to add.

Stone- you are absolutely right that Firebird is okay on the East track (and improved from earlier years), the West track is horrible-(but if you want to race..)
and the Main track is about as dangerous as a rider makes it ( act like a fool across the dragstrip turn 14 and you will eat wall- the race is not won there).  At CCSSW (cannot speak for other regions) we are trying to take more of the everyday management into our own hands, at least as much as the home office will allow it, in order to help serve our racers (read customer- owning ones own business is not the only way to understand marketing).  This or course will take time.  Things have never been better than they are now for SW region racing. Thanks to Roger, we have added a new venue ( and a nice one), and since you are new, you will not remember when LV had barb wire at both ends, chainlink everywhere else and potholes with cones stood in them so racers would not hit them- so much for progress. LV is much better (and not a parking lot for 'Neck-car anymore thanks to guys like Randy, Dale Keiffer and Jim Cox-not to mention some dude named Freddie)  If you stick around Stone (Latebrake can vouch for this) things will slowly improve.  Hopefully not to slow, but there are many things still out of our control.  i make no excuses for the tracks we have- they are what they are- we don't own them.  I can offer reasons (not excuses) why we do not travle to Utah remember Thunderhill?  We could not get racers to travel there. Been to Willow Springs or buttonwillow?  Same thing.  We are flattered and happy that you chose to spend you r money with us but some racers don't have the funding (most racers are sponsored by Visa) to travel everywhere- especially at 6 MPG at 2.50+ a gallon for gas.  See you at the races!!

This is our first year with CCS and I can say that I have been truly disappointed with the way things have been run, NOT on the part of Randy or any of the CCSSW local people, BUT on the part of the Ft. Worth office.   Heck, the SW region points STILL don't reflect the points from the May 15 ASMA/CCS combined race and I've been calling Ft. Worth for 2 months now trying to get the situation fixed, but I seem to get blown off by a new excuse each time.  (Sorry, Tiff & Linda, but I've e-mailed and called both of you numerous times trying to get this issue resolved.)

As far as tracks go, I guess if we had more experience on a wider variety of tracks I could voice an opinion, but right now I can't.

Promotion?  Is that the promoters responsibility or the riders?  I think it's a little iof both.  Saying that, however, I think part of the problem is just lack of media attention and interest from the general public.  I know we have tried to get people we know to attend races, but most of them don't want to take the time or spend the gas money to travel 2+ hours from where we live to see a race.  We've even offerred to pay the gate fee for some of them.  They think it's cool that we do it and all, but that's about as far as it goes.  (Yet some of these same people will travel the same distance or farther AND pay more money to see a Nextel Cup or Busch race.  Hmm, does that say something?)

As said before, it seems that CCS is the redheaded stepchild of CCE, and CCSSW is the redheaded stepchild of CCS.  Would like to see it change, but I don't have the money or connections to make that happen, so for now I'll work with the organizations we've got as best we can.

Sandi...

Some good info...

Excuses...yes, seems to be lots of them, but no one willing to own up to them.  As this is your first year, I'll tell you that I have not seen many changes.  The web is "new" to CCS, but it certainly lags way behind compared to other road racing organizations.  The excuses are there.  Doesn't change the fact that riders continue to be frustrated.  Rather than updates in some reasonable fashion with regularity, those updates are rare.  When they happen, everyone hopes that it will continue that way, but it doesn't happen.

Promotion?  CCS is a sanctioning body, not a promotor, except when it has to do with FUSA.  So, their "money", which isn't much, is made from rider entry fees, gate fees, etc.  So, as I always say, if you want to promote as the rider, you should.  But don't promote to see "motorcycle road racing", promote your program of value, as it should have a value to your sponsors.

CART was a great example.  CART the organization was horrible as a sanctioning body.  But the teams spent a whole lot promoting individual sponsors for their teams and where they were going to race next.

When people go to see a race, they go to see personalities...

How many people went to see the Yamaha M1 at the USGP?

I'd put a lot of money on the fact that they wanted to see Rossi on the M1.

When you go to a race, you're looking for those personalities.  Motorcycling in the US is a bit sterile on that front.  Only recently have they started to recognize that and track promoters started putting images of top riders.  A funny thing was a few years ago, the image that was used to promote an AMA National road race was the image of a racer that the AMA tore down and "deemed" illegal...

It's hard to get people to come see races unless they feel motivated in someway.  if you can infect people with how much fun your program is to watch...hey, that's the trick.  

Every post here is complaining about poor fufilment due to poor staffing due to low revenue flow due to low racer and gate draw.  And a few people are asking about promotion and marketing.

I don't clearly understand the relationship between CCS and CCE.  

What would it take for CCS to ask CCE for some non-rev billboard space in CCS cities - especially the SW cities - promoting TDs and races as safe(r) places to ride your sportbike fast?  Maybe a billboard on a major highway near the track, with a big URL and some updates to the FUSA/CCS webpage with a big friendly link to a page for the new racer?

How about late-night non-rev radio ads?

I think this could be minimal work and expense on CCE's part - I don't know if CCS can afford any such expense and SD seems to beleive "not".

So who are the powers-that-be that could bring it up to CCE?  Could an enterprising and energetic dedicated few racers help facilitate that?  And if you answer "No" - why not?



 

K2- That has been the question of the decade.  Kevin has tried this running every angle he can and it boils down to this- CCE likes to make money.  Therefore thier bean counters will do nothing that will not make them money (fistfulls of it) right off the bat. In thier defense, they are pretty good at it- Monster Trucks, Freestyle and Supercross/Arenacross are perfect examples.  In those sports the flashiest most recognized personalities or teams are paid appearance money by CCE just to walk in the door.  CCE will promote these guys very little themselves and rely on racer sponsors to take care of the rest.  CCE merely provides a place and a sport for sponsors to enter their employees into races so they can advertise their products.  CCE makes its money by putting asses in the seats.    Now, it takes money given to it by sponsors to advertise- and yes CCE pays for airtime on its stations and no we get no discount.  Even though we are part of CCE a midnight ad run (when no one is listening) costs about $300 per spot. That is before rpoduction costs or paying your expert announcer to make the commercial (which I would do for free).  We have done radio ads in the past- and it tanked.  No return on that.  It takes money to make money but CCE gives us next to no money to use for PR.  And I do not care how cool, fast or good looking Mark Ledesma is,  your average person is not coming to see him, you or any other guy race every weekend.  MOST Neckcar fans (if I get any hatemail from Neckcar folks I will hunt you down and pry out your last tooth!)  are not race fans.  They are drama fans who show up to root on thier favorite racer as he punts some dude into the wall and his pit crew rumbles with the other pit crew.  MOST motorcyle racing fans are more civilised, yet as Dave said are there to root for a racer.  Spectators are not the holy grail of happiness for amatuer sports.  More participants is the only thing tnat will fill the CCS coffers enough to give us the clout to go play at expensive places.  We are trying to cultivate that through track days, racer clinics offered at the best prices in the nation and grass roots ads.  We finally got business cards for the SW region.  They are full color and have an action shot of Matt Buck ( SW champ) on one side and the contact info of CCS and the SW schedule on the other side.  If you have not gotten a fistfull of these to toss on street guys bikes at your local college, Pavillions, mall or whatever- I can get you some of these email me cstem@cox.net or call 623-521-2461 (remember what I said about teeth.. or tooth's?) and I will get yousome quick.  They were at the last two races on the table in front of registration and will be again next race.  If you know of an event that would be hospitable, cheap and relative somehow to roadracing, I can try to set up an info kiosk of some sort.  This is how we do it.  CCE's dollars are not going to grace us anytime soon.  So think about it, turn your negative energy into action and let's get this going.  I am always receptive to good suggestions that are thought out- but to post a bitch complaint on here is not the way to do it.  See you at the races- Cory

QuoteI don't clearly understand the relationship between CCS and CCE.  

What would it take for CCS to ask CCE for some non-rev billboard space in CCS cities - especially the SW cities - promoting TDs and races as safe(r) places to ride your sportbike fast?  Maybe a billboard on a major highway near the track, with a big URL and some updates to the FUSA/CCS webpage with a big friendly link to a page for the new racer?

How about late-night non-rev radio ads?

I think this could be minimal work and expense on CCE's part - I don't know if CCS can afford any such expense and SD seems to beleive "not".

So who are the powers-that-be that could bring it up to CCE?  Could an enterprising and energetic dedicated few racers help facilitate that?  And if you answer "No" - why not?

CCS was purchased by SFX Motorsports in late 1999 to early 2000.  SFX was purchased by CCE like immedately after that.

CCE purchases companies.  It's kind of like a bank account.  If you're money's just sitting there, it should do something and make money.  CCE owns CCS because owning it makes more money than interest in a bank, basically.  If CCS does well, and there would be an available buyer, hey, they get their equity out of it.

Seems as though some don't exactly recognize how making money works.  CCE has radio spots and billboards.  Each one has a cost.  Each one has a price.  Seldom have I listened to the radio when there wasn't something playing.  So, each ad is a customer.  If CCE decides to spend it's money buying ads from itself for CCS...it's gonna loose money.  And how many ads would you need to get CCS to making money?

And if you could get spectators to show up, would they be impressed with the "racing programs" that "teams" were putting forward at an event?  How many people have uniforms outside of the CCS staff to differentiate themselves from spectators?  How about clearly defined team names?  How big are stickers in relationship to actual sponsorship on racing machines?  (Not continency stickers...that's stuff that is "contingent" upon some measure of success).

Really, I don't see that CCS, or CCE has much responsibility in promoting the event.  You want people to check you out...

How many photos or press release packages have you delievered to you "sponsoring dealer"?  Local newspaper?  Radio station?  

In a series that is proliferated with riders that only commit to two to three years...what do you do?


AFM

That is literally the beginning of club motorcycle road racing in the US.  Success?  Yeah, they continue on, but they have a residual of some fifty years of consistent racing in a location.  They are part of the landscape.

WERA

I don't have an exact answer for that, but I know that with their deal with the AMA, they get some sweetheart gigs.  

CCS used to be that way...it was known as AMA/CCS until 1994 when the "new" stickers came out.

Hey, you just needed your AMACCS expert license to race AMA 600 or 750 National Supersport.

I kind of have to post here in defense of the SW CCS crew.  I am one of those racers that have been around for 5 years (just barely) and I can tell you there has been one constant up to this time and that has been the commitment of the SW CCS crew.  I use to hate the East track, but in a way it has become a fun little place for me.  I still like the Main even with all its walls.  West now that is a track that I have problems with, probably won't race there, but I will show up to support the racers that do.  I do have to say that the track is much improved from the first time I saw it, but still has issues. Vegas kicks ass, I just wish I could make a race weekend up there again.  Arroyo sounds like fun, but the closest I have come to it was when I pulled into the parking lot to take some pictures of it on my way to Barber.  Knock the tracks, and knock CCE, fine, but you step over a line when you question the drive and commitment of the SW crew.  As far as I am concerned they are the best in all of CCS.  If you don't think you have choices then you are wrong.  You can race with WERA or AFM that is your choice, but for me I am going to continue to support those that have been there for me.

Ok...I have read everything that has been posted. To clarify a few things...

1st I dont think that just because you have been "racing" for 5 years it gives you anymore clarity of the given situtation. I also feel that just because an individual works for free (or low pay) at any organization it doesnt gives them a "free pass" for its lack of performance.

Last, as I did with any company that I have had over the last 17 years... if a team isnt working right and producing in the right direction...at a measured pace.... "Yer fired".

Refering to cstem...I have spoke to the head honcho's with not one single success. As for Heidi...I have one sentence "Work smarter, not harder". As for promoting the races and the calendar cards that are available....No one has approached or announced to my knowledge that they are available in mass quantities to distribute.

I have gone one further to help promote this organization. I have offered numerous times to friends and people that I have ment....come out and try the trackday prior to the races and take my bike for a spin. I am hoping that with one free sample of the track they will get hooked. I will explain this concept a little later in the post.

Lets clarify one thing that comes to mind. I am under the impression that Randy now runs the trackdays prior to the races and...gains the profit from that day. True or false? Be careful how you answer.

Let me throw you a bone that comes off the top of my head that has been working for years. Its the word "free". I have used it time and time again in business and I even think that it has been used in the biblical sense as well..."Cast your bread upon the water and silk shall return"(I think that is how it was said).

There is a track organization that has used it to its fullest with a free trackday with the purchase of a new bike. Have you seen the turnout? Busy, very busy.

Now...take this concept and work it. Go to the pavallions, go to mill, go to the dealers and go to the forums and promote the trackday prior to the races and the races. Simple math buddy...one rider comes, one rider brings friends, they see the racers, the excitement and rider/friends pay admission just to get in to get thier free trackday. Many may do it once, but some will become racers. This all shouldnt be a problem...because everyone works for little or nothing :-X But in the long run...it will bring in a larger number.

Theres one bone for ya. I have made this concept work for 12 years in a business I owned and its working right now in the valley.

Now write me an excuse....

I love the CCS SW crew!  I wish they still came here to CA to race.  :)

I'm looking forward to the FB West event...I hope it's not the same weekend that I have to go to a wedding!

Of course, I'm on a 125 and tight/technical tracks are a bit easier for us than a GSXR 1000 or whatever.

I've raced at Cal Speedway.  I must say that I really dislike the track, it's not fun at all.  It does have garages and power, but that's about it.  FB East is a LOT more fun.  Also, the cost to race there is totally not worth it to me, as a racer.  Forget practicing there...FasTrack, not WERA run that, and it's way not worth it to me.  I've got 2 events which I am not running that I should be, one this weekend at the LVMS infield course and another at Cal Speedway.  The org running those is charging more than I am willing to pay, and that's likely mostly do to the cost to get the track for the weekend, they are NASCAR tracks...I know it isn't cheap...David from WERA has told me what it costs to get Fontana...it's a joke, I can't believe that they are running there again this year, I can't see them making a penny on it.

CCS is the best deal (price wise) for racing for me, even though I have to drive to other states to race...better cost wise, if I were to race more races, than WSMC, which I race every month.

Racing in NM for me?  Not too likely to happen...it's way too far away.

Oh, and Stone, a friend of mine has been racing with about 5 orgs (AFM, WERA, WSMC, CCS, USGPRU) ever since he got a "free" track day when he bought a street bike.  So, that does work!  He spends way too much money doing it, and dropped CCS since they left CA and just dropped WERA for "technical" reasons.  :)

-Brian

all we have in the northeast is NHIS at loudon.....

Hey Dave Stone, It sounds like you have all the answers. Why don't you start your own racing business. You are wrong the way you think.  I have been racing and working with Randy&Heidi and crew for 12 years. Guys like you have come and gone.  One thing for sure, They are a Damm good crew.    That being said,  and this goes for everyone.  If you don't like the program.  Go race somewhere else!

SW New Riders Instructor
john

QuoteThat being said,  and this goes for everyone.  If you don't like the program.  Go race somewhere else!

Ok, I'll out right disagree with that.

Nothing certainly happens in a vacuum.  There are things that can be done to help things work better.  

People with ideas should voice them.  Some ideas have been tried.  Some are revisions of ideas that have been tried.

Is that actually Kim or really John making Kim look scary?

John, get your own login...hee hee...

-Brian

Sorry Brian,  I hate when that happens.  
Super Dave your right.  But sometimes people just complain too much. You and I both know, we never had "trackdays".  You just showed up and raced. Now everyone and there brother, puts on a trackday.  CCS included. So I say, shut up and ride.

Quote1st I dont think that just because you have been "racing" for 5 years it gives you anymore clarity of the given situtation.

Stone, I'll run with your stuff here.

Totally agree.  For some people, racing is a few races.  For some it's a lot.  For some, it's one track, for others it's many organizations.

Experience CAN be of value, however, so, it's hard to discount kernals of thought from some...and some might be forwarding huge reality issues.

QuoteI also feel that just because an individual works for free (or low pay) at any organization it doesnt gives them a "free pass" for its lack of performance.

Good issue.  Some people with experience comes from people out of the goodness of their heart.  With racing, the trick is, who out there is available that would have any real better answers short of individuals that have been involved in racing?  The whole gig is very fickle.  People have been hired for PR positions in various MC RR orgs with results that did not come from things they did.

QuoteLast, as I did with any company that I have had over the last 17 years... if a team isnt working right and producing in the right direction...at a measured pace.... "Yer fired"

True.  Would more money or different people actually change the result though?  Again, generally not.  

QuoteAs for promoting the races and the calendar cards that are available....No one has approached or announced to my knowledge that they are available in mass quantities to distribute.

Completely and totally agreed.  I have held a CCS license since 1988 too.

QuoteI have gone one further to help promote this organization.

Again, I'm not sure why anyone necessarily wants to promote an organization.  I like CCS, and I have worked to do things for racers.  Racers should be the real recipient of anything.  Without racers, there is no need for an organization.  The organization MAKES its money from the racers.  If there are any spectators, their money comes from wanting to see the racers race.  You don't go to a race to watch registration or tech.

QuoteI have offered numerous times to friends and people that I have ment....come out and try the trackday prior to the races and take my bike for a spin. I am hoping that with one free sample of the track they will get hooked. I will explain this concept a little later in the post.

Hooked.  I'm interested in that one.

It's been the "end all" answer for all these track day programs and "safety school/racing license" programs;  the more people we get to race, the more popular motorcycle road racing will be.

Again, this is a tried program that hasn't yielded results.  

Racing is the option of individuals that decide that the risk that they involve themselves in (money, health...family, friends)...is the endeavour that they'd like to try to be successful in.

It's a drug that doesn't immediately become addictive to everyone.

If all the track day programs were the answer, racing entries would have sky rocketed.  I don't see it.  But I know that track day programs have grown to out of control proportions.  The result has been that racing organizations have decided that they need to farm out a couple of days to try to get potential track day riders involved earlier with the organization.  

QuoteI am under the impression that Randy now runs the trackdays prior to the races and...gains the profit from that day. True or false? Be careful how you answer.

I'm sure it spreads out the cost of the weekend.  Can't answer specifically on it.

QuoteThere is a track organization that has used it to its fullest with a free trackday with the purchase of a new bike. Have you seen the turnout? Busy, very busy.

There have been other organizations that have used that which have not had very, very busy turn out because of those things.  There are other market variables that can account for changes, one way or another.  Often the complexity of business is beyond any reasonable immedate recognition.

QuoteSimple math buddy...one rider comes, one rider brings friends, they see the racers, the excitement and rider/friends pay admission just to get in to get thier free trackday. Many may do it once, but some will become racers. This all shouldnt be a problem...because everyone works for little or nothing :-X But in the long run...it will bring in a larger number.

Theres one bone for ya. I have made this concept work for 12 years in a business I owned and its working right now in the valley.

Now write me an excuse....

Few become racers.  

Very, very few.

NASCAR is not promoted in a way that pushes spectators to race cars or try a track day.  Again, it's a minor few.

NASCAR, and other successful racing organizations, are promoted on the premise of watching individuals try their best.  The spectators recognize that they are not capable, not always, of functioning like the drivers/riders.

Spending money on continually trying to get new racers (CUSTOMERS) into road racing is just the wrong end of the program.  

The little equity that most racing organizations pay to racers is points.

Who really cares, honestly?  I've asked for a few more purse paying classes to push up the competition level for two reasons:

• Get some money into the hands of racers though purse money.  It's not going to be a lot, but anything helps.  "Free" is always an interesting term, but usually only a small trinket is necessary to get a reasonable response from customers
• the level of competition usually goes up with cash.  Competition will pull in spectators.

AMA racing is ok, but if you're only racing to try and win a $4700 purse for first...

You're better off chasing YAMAHA money at a club race.  And those events are usually exciting to watch.

I prefer promoting what I do to people that have no understanding of motorcycles.  To see what we do is just about impossible to them.  The value of that entertainment is exciting to them.  We fall over and get back up.  Changing tires, etc.  Those people generally "respect" the abilities of those on track.

QuoteYou and I both know, we never had "trackdays".  You just showed up and raced. Now everyone and there brother, puts on a trackday.  CCS included. So I say, shut up and ride.

Yeah, no track days.

Promoter practice?  That was an odd one too.  Cool when it was available, though.

I think that the track day programs spell the doom for club road racing.  

There was a time when club road racing was the avenue for racers to learn and move up to professional road racing.  

Schwantz, Polen, James, Russell, Stevens.  Those are some decent examples.

Currently, how many Austrailians are in the US Superbike program?  Brits even?  Haydens came through a different route.  



Back to an organizations' responsibility.

There needs to be a person at the track actually writing about the event.

To not do so is ridiculous.  Yeah, each racer/team should have their own press releases, but you're not gonna read every release in RRW.  But if you're racing at Blackhawk Farms, hey, CCS should take the responsibility to have someone write something for RRW, CW and those mags.  

Let's look at that one specifically....

Blackhawk Farms is a race track that was built in 1967.  It's located near Chicago, Rockford, Milwaukee, and Madison.  How many million people?  WERA used to race there but lost interest or something.  CCS took over.  You could win a Suzuki Cup race there and get no recognition.  Win at a smaller race track that had some press going on and you'd get offered support packages, etc.

For a peroid of time, Blackhawk was hosting six CCS road racing events a year.  Good turn outs.  Enough to pay for events that didn't have such a good turn out.

What are you guys getting?

Points don't pay equity.  PR does.

Nicely said Dave...that writing thing goes for EVERY org.  It kinda seems that WERA partially has some sort of act together...or it's Vesrah/Army of Darkness.

-Brian

Vesrah filled the shoes of Team Hammer/Team Suzuki Endurance/Team Valvoline in the WERA series.  WERA has the only "real" (my words) endurance series.  The team challenge races just aren't long enough.  And they have gotten shorter.

CMRA has done a decent job.  They have sponsors for individual races during a weekend.  Not much money, but if you're Ty Howard, it certainly helps.  And then someone actually bothers to write about it and submit it.

Same with WSMC.  

WERA is good about releases for their National series.

Oh, and Stone, a friend of mine has been racing with about 5 orgs (AFM, WERA, WSMC, CCS, USGPRU) ever since he got a "free" track day when he bought a street bike.  So, that does work!  He spends way too much money doing it, and dropped CCS since they left CA and just dropped WERA for "technical" reasons.  :)

-Brian


And "Bingo" was his name!!! Holy cow...it does bite some people. It happen to me as well and proves that there are people out there that once attracted to the track by "one trackday" become...addicts.

Heres a few more that did the same as your buddy and myself just this year.

Me....Stone, Boge, Gianni and Greg. We race every race date and as many races as we can per event. And guess what...it all came from one trackday.

Go figure...

QuoteHey Dave Stone, It sounds like you have all the answers. Why don't you start your own racing business. You are wrong the way you think.  I have been racing and working with Randy&Heidi and crew for 12 years. Guys like you have come and gone.  One thing for sure, They are a Damm good crew.    That being said,  and this goes for everyone.  If you don't like the program.  Go race somewhere else!

SW New Riders Instructor
john

Dont forget that John runs the riders clinic for racing. And speaking of coming and going....John are you not just coming back from "going"???

Need I say..."Dont cast Stones in glass house" ;D

QuoteMe....Stone, Boge, Gianni and Greg. We race every race date and as many races as we can per event. And guess what...it all came from one trackday.

Go figure...

Based on what you're saying...each rider that goes to a track day goes racing?

That's a generalization.

My generalization...coming from being an instructor for a CCS school and being an owner of an independant school...few track day/school riders actually go on to race in this era.

The four of you had a unique opportunity.

QuoteDont forget that John runs the riders clinic for racing. And speaking of coming and going....John are you not just coming back from "going"???

Need I say..."Dont cast Stones in glass house" ;D

Ok, so are you saying that their is something improper about his endorcement?  Or is he not allowed an opinion to be voiced in a forum based on his personal generalizations?

"True.  Would more money or different people actually change the result though?  Again, generally not."

Well spent money and well placed effort always net good results.   
  

"Racing is the option of individuals that decide that the risk that they involve themselves in (money, health...family, friends)...is the endeavour that they'd like to try to be successful in.

It's a drug that doesn't immediately become addictive to everyone."

Again I am going to state that there will be "some" that are willing to take to it. I have never seen any business get 100% on their promotional dollars back the instant they do it. What CCS(SW) is trying to do is grow its business without spending any money or effort to grow it. The current forumla is failing.

"If all the track day programs were the answer, racing entries would have sky rocketed.  I don't see it.  But I know that track day programs have grown to out of control proportions."

Ding, ding, ding, diinnnnnng! Your answer! Trackday orgs are promoting themselves without print in papers, without ads on clear channel and they sure as heck are not promoting CCS at their trackdays.


"I'm sure it spreads out the cost of the weekend.  Can't answer specifically on it."

Its either a nice sidestep or ya just dont know. I'll just let that one lay there and we'll see next year what has come to light.

So far for the silly season on the CCS SW rumor mill we have...

Firebird adding more track pavement to the East track. God I hope its true.

QuoteOk, so are you saying that their is something improper about his endorcement?  Or is he not allowed an opinion to be voiced in a forum based on his personal generalizations?

Nope... just clarifing his association to Randy and CCS.

30 rider grids? That will be hard to come by in club racing unless you go to a wera or fusa national. In case any of the old timers have been asleep the last several years or so, club racing in this country has taken a serious dump. In the early 90's, grids used to be 30-40 deep in just about every regional race. Now ccs MIGHT get 40 riders at the race of champions. I'll give you all some reasons why:
Track days started about 1996 or so in the US.
Cost; $1500 for fork internals!!! WTF! Pipes; $750. Bodywork $600. Shock $1200. DOT nearly $400.
Gas prices: $100-$200 for a nearby regional race
The economy; With China and India offering companies the ability to make more profit, our jobs are drying up.
Not to mention all the other things that are steadily going up in price.
   Kevin Elliot is probably told by clear channel that he has to turn a certain profit or loss margin or guess what? Clear channel will fire him! Now knowing that CCS, wera and the AMA are all battling for entry fee money to keep going, I hope that I have given you all some insight (or lack thereof) to the way things are in racing today. tTo quote Ozzy Osbourne, "don't look to me for answers, I don't know"
I really like motorbike racing alot, I just can't afford to do it that much anymore.


Obviously Super Dave hasn't been sleeping! He's been paying attention.

Quote30 rider grids? That will be hard to come by in club racing unless you go to a wera or fusa national.

Actually, you can get a lot more than that at an AFM round, and most WSMC rounds for some of the MW stuff.

-Brian

Quote"True.  Would more money or different people actually change the result though?  Again, generally not."

Well spent money and well placed effort always net good results.  

How much?  

The motorcycle road racing market place is rather wide and disjointed.

I have an idea of how much CCS makes CCE.  It isn't much.  

The best that CCS did was in 2000.  Might be before your time.  In that year, a deal was inked that brought an outside sponsor into the FUSA series, which was now under CCS...it was a stand along program before that, it was with WERA before that, and it was a Willow Springs progam before that....

Entries were high, and the excitement was there.  The outside sponsorship money made things possible.  However, not all the money got paid to CCS, as I understand it.

The next year, the sponsorship was renewed, but at a lower cost to the sponsor.  Wasn't the same.  

Manufacturers made promises to support the series with sponsorship dollars...CCS made plans, and then the manufacturer money never came through as promised.  

CCS supported the series with its own money.  We're talking ten's of thousands of dollars.  In 2004 the purse money for FUSA deteriorated quite a bit.  Fewer riders following the series?  No money for spectator stuff because it was already spent trying to get the series going. 
  

Quote"Racing is the option of individuals that decide that the risk that they involve themselves in (money, health...family, friends)...is the endeavour that they'd like to try to be successful in.

It's a drug that doesn't immediately become addictive to everyone."

Again I am going to state that there will be "some" that are willing to take to it. I have never seen any business get 100% on their promotional dollars back the instant they do it. What CCS(SW) is trying to do is grow its business without spending any money or effort to grow it. The current forumla is failing.

Some, few, a couple, and many are really different terms.  Again, how  many dollars would you like to spend on each attempt?  Is there a broad market place where the money could be spent?

Current formula is failing?

Where?  On the whole national economic front?  Fuel and gas prices are quite a bit higher than they were several years ago.  It was either in 2000 or 2001 that gas was under $1.00 a gallon when I was coming back from Daytona.

In May of 2001, one can draw a line in the market place where something happened and entries seemed to drop.  I know my school program saw a drop off.  In that month, the Fed announced that there were issues in the economy.  I see similar things happening now.  How about short term interest rates increasing?  Credit card rates going up?

I guess I don't always see that someone else (a racing organization) should spend money when the product (racers programs) aren't necessarily up to fair market spectator conditions?  Any agreement on that?

Quote"If all the track day programs were the answer, racing entries would have sky rocketed.  I don't see it.  But I know that track day programs have grown to out of control proportions."

Ding, ding, ding, diinnnnnng! Your answer! Trackday orgs are promoting themselves without print in papers, without ads on clear channel and they sure as heck are not promoting CCS at their trackdays.

Actually, my point is different than what your answer is...

There's a track day organization on every corner.  Blackhawk Farms has three or so for motorcycles.  It's an over saturated market...that's the OC proportion.  

Quote"I'm sure it spreads out the cost of the weekend.  Can't answer specifically on it."

Its either a nice sidestep or ya just dont know. I'll just let that one lay there and we'll see next year what has come to light.

Actually, I don't know.  But what does it matter?  There should be some profit.  

Quote30 rider grids? That will be hard to come by in club racing unless you go to a wera or fusa national.

We get that at times at Blackhawk.  AFM...I know there are waiting lists.  LRRS...big grids.  Really depends upon where you are and in what cycle you are in.

QuoteIn case any of the old timers have been asleep the last several years or so, club racing in this country has taken a serious dump. In the early 90's, grids used to be 30-40 deep in just about every regional race. Now ccs MIGHT get 40 riders at the race of champions.

And from an "old timer"...

Before some of the boom of the early 90's, it was hard to get a ten rider expert grid for middleweight Supersport on a Suzuki Cup weekend...that was when I was riding a Suzuki Katana 600 against FZR600's and Scott Russell would show up on his Yoshimura Katana to make some extra money.

QuoteI'll give you all some reasons why:
Track days started about 1996 or so in the US.

Yeah, sounds good.  I saw that people were coming to my CCS road race school in 1993/1994 to get an opportunity to be on track without racing.

In years past, endurance racing was always sold as "track time".  Track days have become the non-competitive form of "track time".  Either way, doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a change is still insanity.

QuoteCost; $1500 for fork internals!!! WTF! Pipes; $750. Bodywork $600. Shock $1200. DOT nearly $400.
Gas prices: $100-$200 for a nearby regional race

Yeah, gone are the days of $180 tires (front and rear), $3600 bikes, $500 shocks, and entry fees...

My first year:  $30 for the first, $20 for the second, $10 for each one after...

And Suzuki was offering $1500 for a win in each Suzuki Cup race.

One of the things that I noticed over the years was the escalation of perhipheral costs.  Amateurs with enclosed tandem axle trailers.  What gives?  There was a time when your common journeyman road racer was happy with a super length van.
[/quote]

Money and how it's spent.

In the mid 90's I had the opportunity to ride some neat vintage motorcycles for their owners.  Some events pitted us back to back or the weekend before an AMA Pro event.  

AMA Pro Racing is a sanctioning body that sells is sanction to promotors and race tracks.  The ultimate aim is to make money.  There were times when we, the AHRMA races, out pulled the AMA Pro event...more spectators were there to see us rather than the Pro event.  Mid-Ohio and Daytona were of particular interest.

Goes to show that the money that's spent on road racing does not always get the results that one expects.

It's funny that you get people with all the answers, but yet have never stepped into the pool and tried the waters.  I have first hand experience at starting a new race series, and watched the hemorrhaging of money. It wasn't my money, but I sure spent a lot of my time and effort with this series.  It is an expensive sport no doubt, both for the racer and the series owner.  Anyone that sticks around for more then a few years has disposable income, and in a way is out of touch with folks that are struggling just to make ends meet.

QuoteActually, you can get a lot more than that at an AFM round, and most WSMC rounds for some of the MW stuff.

-Brian

Yes but Isn't California like it's own country? Population and sportbike wise? MW is always been popular. I remember going to watch club races like those here in Fl in the late 80's/early '90's and seeing 50-60 rider grids at club races!
The HW or unlimited classes naturally had a little less and the light weights were about 15-25 riders. Nowdays, in my region, we are lucky to get 10 bikes in a HW race. MW usually get at least 10, but not always. :(

Quote   Anyone that sticks around for more then a few years has disposable income, and in a way is out of touch with folks that are struggling just to make ends meet.

I have been on both sides of this. It just seems right now, I'm on the latter.

I remember see pictures recently of Kenny Roberts RR bike in the paddock at Laguna seca in the 70's and there were no tire warmers, no canopies, no generators. Just a carpet and a bike stand holdig the bike. The same series of picture showed Erv Kanemoto working in the dirt on someones bike out of the back of a step van. The newbies are being told these days that they need tire warmers, canpies, generators. etc to look "professional" but in the end, where's the sponsor money at? If there was any, There would be alot more people racing....I would be on the track evey other weekend if that were the case.

QuoteI remember see pictures recently of Kenny Roberts RR bike in the paddock at Laguna seca in the 70's and there were no tire warmers, no canopies, no generators. Just a carpet and a bike stand holdig the bike. The same series of picture showed Erv Kanemoto working in the dirt on someones bike out of the back of a step van. The newbies are being told these days that they need tire warmers, canpies, generators. etc to look "professional" but in the end, where's the sponsor money at? If there was any, There would be alot more people racing....I would be on the track evey other weekend if that were the case.

Ok, that's kind of backward thinking.

First, there just weren't tire warmers for a long time.  Those in the know were hiding their tires and wheels inside of hot vans before races.  There are things you can do to put heat into tires.

Where's the sponsor money?  That sounds rather entitling....as though if you just have a racing license, someone should give you money.  It's pretty simple;  one needs to develop a program that is interesting to sponsorship opportunities.  Again, who's got shirts?  How about a team name on a set of leathers?  Websites, press releases?  Doing anything outside of the track.

And, even then, it will probably cost something out of your pocket.  In NASCAR, there's a lot of money being thrown around, but with huge staffs, PR people for each driver, etc., etc...

Tire warmers and generators are still reasonably inexpensive.  Those things are tangable items that don't just go away like tires.  

The impression of expense has went up just as the cost of a Ford Taurus went up over all those years.  Hopefully, your income did too.  Or maybe you figured out how to tune the chassis better or actually develop A PROGRAM that was attractive to reduce your financial input.

I remember when I saw my first set of tire warmers at the PIR AMA National in 1993.  I didn't buy any until 1999.  

A generator won't make anyone "look" professional.  It's just a tool to be utilized, like a screw driver.  Many people will NEVER get to the track to see your program.  That's where a press release can make a big difference.

I have been able to "stick around" a long time because I diversified and learned that promotion of a program was more important that most anything.  Most championships only satisfy a level of personal satisfaction.  Being available at "important" events can be more "sponsor worthy".  

Back to the Blackhawk example, a friend of mine used to win the Suzuki Cup races at Blackhawk where no one wrote about anything, and another guy won them at Grattan.  The guy who won at Grattan got written about and eventually was able to quit his job so he could race until injuries ended his racing career many, many years later.

QuoteIt's funny that you get people with all the answers, but yet have never stepped into the pool and tried the waters.  I have first hand experience at starting a new race series, and watched the hemorrhaging of money. It wasn't my money, but I sure spent a lot of my time and effort with this series.  It is an expensive sport no doubt, both for the racer and the series owner.  Anyone that sticks around for more then a few years has disposable income, and in a way is out of touch with folks that are struggling just to make ends meet.

Well said, so enough already... Let's enjoy what we got until something better evolves! ;)

QuoteCost; $1500 for fork internals!!! WTF! Pipes; $750. Bodywork $600. Shock $1200. DOT nearly $400.

So then why are the cheapest classes the least popular?  Is it too much of an image thing - "I gotta race a 1000 so I can be cool"?  I have a buddy who races Ultra-Light Superbike on an RZ350. Basically it has had the lights removed and some number plates strapped on.  He buys two sets of Avons a season.  Shows up at the track with a cardboard box of a few tools and some premix oil.  He has a blast doing it.  He probably spends less than I do on my mountain bikes.

How fun would it be to have 20 of those RZ350s out on the track together?  AFM has big Production 250 grids, with guys rubing elbows on Ninja 250s and VFR250s.  

The cost (which is often what drives people away) comes from what people think they "need" to go racing.  They "need" the latest gen 600, they "need" that power commander, they "need" a $1500 shock, they "need" a high dollar supersport valve job, etc.  Sure, there are a few guys that need this stuff to win the big races, but that's probably 10% of the club racers out there.  If I had a MotoGP bike I still wouldn't beat Kan Laskey, but Mat Mladin could do it on a dead stock bike with street tires.

As everyone has said before, cost is a major reason why people quit the sport, which in turn is why roadracing is not growing at any substantial rate.  So how do we convince racers that they don't need to spend as much as they are?  How do we break the "image"?  

Sure some will make the arguement that they want to go run the AMA and need to get ready.  But then again it's ironic that, at least in the SW, the lightweight expert grids are 3-4 times the size of the lightweight amateur grids, yet the amateur grids are bigger than expert in the MW, HW, and Unl. classes.

-z.

How about this...

A production based class with extreme restrictions that would maintain the bike in a very basic form.



It's been done.  AHRMA had the MZ Skorpion Cup Series starting in 1997 for a few years.  Laverda also with AHRMA.  Now the Triumph Thruxton series.  Bikes are reasonable, don't destroy tires.  But, having raced in the Skorpion class in 1998, cheating is more expensive in completely production classes.  Yeah...there always seems to be ways to cheat, it's just a matter of money.  Really, with a bike of 42HP, if you make 10% more power, it's still not much more powerful.  But there were a couple of bikes that were just ridiculous...someone has to have the knowledge of something to look for.

Oh, and the pay was good too.  

Cheap racing...  125 GP bikes...period.  Again, there should be tons of them around.  

QuoteCheap racing...  125 GP bikes...period.  Again, there should be tons of them around.  

Totally!  But, we shag tires like they are going out of style!  ha ha ha just kidding.

I'm not super fast, but I've run about 3 months/w-3 races per month with one set of tires.

You can't get 125 tires past the wear marks.  You will heat-cycle them long before that.  (this doesn't include endurance racing)

-Brian

"So then why are the cheapest classes the least popular?  Is it too much of an image thing - "I gotta race a 1000 so I can be cool"?"

Thats a chip that you carry on your shoulder like Barney Five carries his only bullet in his front pocket. Your constantly trying explain why you ride the bikes that you do...but in the same sentence belittling anyone that rides a 1k.

The 2 strokes are cool but not everyones cup of tea. I personally wouldnt want to race them due to all the maintence. The last race in Vegas I saw everyone's 125/250 up on stands while their owners worked on them constantly. If I wanted to do that I would go back to drag racing Harleys.  

Hey Stone,

Anybody told you that they love you lately?

 ;)

Ok, I don't want Stone to take all the heat. Stone is a guy that CCS SW needs. Everybody may not like him, but he is extremely passionate about his hobby. For him to post this topic, means he wants this region to improve. He has made a large investment in this sport in a short time. He continually brings new people to the track. The people that have been with CCS a while say "I've seen his type come and go" That is the problem, why are they going? Why are we not keeping our racers from year to year? The racers that have been there 5+ years would probably be there every year no matter what.

In the SW, our grids are extremely small. At the last race, I was the only expert SuperTwins rider on the grid. I started out as a CCS corner worker in 1988 at Moroso in Florida. So, even though I have only been racing a short time, I have been around CCS a long time.

Why don't we have a press release sent out to Cycle News and Roadracing World. There is absolutely no press coverage of our events. It's hard to keep sponsors with out any press coverage.

We do have a problem in the Southwest. I know Stone wants to help fix it. I want to help fix it also. You can't discount somebody's opinion because he's only in his first full year of racing. Everybody wants to defend CCS and the people that run the SW on this board. That's fine, but we need to admit there is a problem and fix it. You can't always go back in the past and say "We tried that and it didn't work"

Why does the local track day group get a date at Firebird Main and we have to race on a questionable West track?

Our team just came back from an AFM event this past weekend at Infineon. It was a 15 hour drive from Phoenix and it was worth it. Over 30 riders on every grid and 47 in the 4 hour endurance race. Stone and I want CCS SW to have that many riders.

This year, we got a new track to race in our region, Arroyo Seco in New Mexico. Only 2 CCS SW experts showed up for the race. Right now, I don't care for the track a lot, (because I suck at it) but I will keep coming back because the track owner is moving in the right direction and I want to support the track.

Flame away

QuoteYour constantly trying explain why you ride the bikes that you do...but in the same sentence belittling anyone that rides a 1k.

Um, he does ride a 1k.   ::)

Well thought out response. Every org. should always be looking at improving. Ideas should come from all directions  and all people. If Stone has some ideas to better the region, lets hear them.... In the end, a better region makes for better racing right?

I agree Pat, the SW does need someone like Stone, so we can give him crap on the BSR boards  ;)  

Seriously, the first time Stone came down to ASR, he ran off at the worst possible spot. At around 80mph, he was hit by another rider who wasn't going to make the corner and went off the track mid-corner. Thank God we had no walls out there or he would have hit something solid. Dave complained up a storm about it being bumpy out there (nobody had ever run off where he did ) and it made me take a serious look at the runoff. (He even called me and offered to smooth it with a tractor himself ). In the offseason, I spent close to 2 months clearing more runoff at EVERY corner of the track. Honestly, you can't expect most tracks to cater to us riders though, for most, sports car is where they get their revenue. And, unfortunately, the SCCA has different objective's and guidelines for getting certified to hold their races. I know this because they've asked for some changes at our track since it was opened but the previous owner refused to make any changes and thus had no sports car races for YEARS. In 2001 or so he allowed the SCCA to build tire walled corner worker stations and they finally had their first race here because SCCA dropped other requests or demands or whatever.  I'm glad they did, because they have races here now and are considering adding more for next year. You can be sure they'd like some walls around this place, but it isn't going to happen. I value my friends lives (riders) as well as my own.

Dave may be loud, outspoken and sometimes full of s*$t, but he really does want the SW to grow. I'm just glad he isn't as fast as he thinks he is  ;D

QuoteUm, he does ride a 1k.   ::)

Sticking up for your husband doesnt count :-*

If he does ride a 1k...bring it on the track. Lets see how he measures up. Surely he must be faster than this lowely amatuer  ::)

QuoteI'm just glad he isn't as fast as he thinks he is  ;D

Duuuudde....Dont make me blip ya! :)

QuoteLets see how he measures up.

Who's going to hold the measuring tape for you?   :-X

QuoteWell thought out response. Every org. should always be looking at improving. Ideas should come from all directions  and all people. If Stone has some ideas to better the region, lets hear them.... In the end, a better region makes for better racing right?

Thanks for the support guys. I dont think that this board would be the right place to negotiate thru this ordeal. There is key information that Randy and others have that I wouldnt think that they would like posted to the board. I would be willing to donate my time and I am sure that there are a few others that have some years under their belt (business wise) that would also. I beg to have a meeting with Randy to see what we can do to help the situation out (Are ya reading this Randy's son??).

I am sure that there is more than one way to skin a cat when it comes to the org.

QuoteWho's going to hold the measuring tape for you?   :-X

I am....the measuring stick ;D

QuoteSticking up for your husband doesnt count :-*

If he does ride a 1k...bring it on the track. Lets see how he measures up. Surely he must be faster than this lowely amatuer  ::)

I don't know, but my 1K only makes around 85hp and wieghs probably over 500lbs  ;D  I have had it out on Arroyo before, but it was limited by the Dragon GTS sport touring tires  ::)

Being faster than me, bike regardless, ain't that big of a deal.  I'm not that fast.  Now as far as a challange, anyone on a single faster than Elaine has my respect.  ;D

And I don't have a chip on my shoulder against the 1k riders.  It does get pretty old hearing them complain about limited classes, but hey, that's their choice they made.  I've just seen a lot of new guys on 1ks that would probably be faster on a smaller bike, including the track day set, and to me it seems that it would make more sense to get one's feet wet in racing on a smaller bike.  I admit that I also think the bike performance has gotten out of control.  Just like all the MotoGP guys who said that Laguna was fine on a Superbike but the MotoGP bikes are too fast and the track became dangerous.  The bikes are getting faster at a much greater rate than the tracks are improving runoff.  I just don't understand that although today's 600s are faster than the open bikes of 10 years ago, the popularity of 1ks have soared in the past few years.  I've never ridden on West, so I have to base this on peoples opinions that West isn't suited for 1ks, but it sounds like the bikes have outgrown the track.

But I don't ride little bikes because I think they are "safer".  I consider myself just as likely to get hurt no matter what bike I'm on, that's part of the game.  I ride the little bikes soley because I have more fun on them, and I thought that was the point of this whole exercise.

Back to my original point in my earlier post.  There are cheaper ways to race than on the newest, biggest, baddest bike.  I seen a lot of riders run out of money or stop having fun that way, and they disappear.  People might discount the LW classes or the sportsman type classes, but if you can bring in large grids for those classes it's more profit the race org can use to improve the series as a whole, including the premeir classes.  Isn't that the point?

-z.

QuoteI don't know, but my 1K only makes around 85hp and wieghs probably over 500lbs  ;D  I have had it out on Arroyo before, but it was limited by the Dragon GTS sport touring tires  ::)

Being faster than me, bike regardless, ain't that big of a deal.  I'm not that fast.  Now as far as a challange, anyone on a single faster than Elaine has my respect.  ;D

And I don't have a chip on my shoulder against the 1k riders.  It does get pretty old hearing them complain about limited classes, but hey, that's their choice they made.  I've just seen a lot of new guys on 1ks that would probably be faster on a smaller bike, including the track day set, and to me it seems that it would make more sense to get one's feet wet in racing on a smaller bike.  I admit that I also think the bike performance has gotten out of control.  Just like all the MotoGP guys who said that Laguna was fine on a Superbike but the MotoGP bikes are too fast and the track became dangerous.  The bikes are getting faster at a much greater rate than the tracks are improving runoff.  I just don't understand that although today's 600s are faster than the open bikes of 10 years ago, the popularity of 1ks have soared in the past few years.  I've never ridden on West, so I have to base this on peoples opinions that West isn't suited for 1ks, but it sounds like the bikes have outgrown the track.

But I don't ride little bikes because I think they are "safer".  I consider myself just as likely to get hurt no matter what bike I'm on, that's part of the game.  I ride the little bikes soley because I have more fun on them, and I thought that was the point of this whole exercise.

Back to my original point in my earlier post.  There are cheaper ways to race than on the newest, biggest, baddest bike.  I seen a lot of riders run out of money or stop having fun that way, and they disappear.  People might discount the LW classes or the sportsman type classes, but if you can bring in large grids for those classes it's more profit the race org can use to improve the series as a whole, including the premeir classes.  Isn't that the point?

-z.

At 230lbs....I need all the ponies I can get. I personally wouldnt have as much fun riding a bike that didnt have the power that the 1k has. Hell...I wish it had more.

I saw Elaine run at Arroyo with Savoca. It was entertaining to see them go at it in the rain. I was wishing that I was out there on rain tires getting the same experience in the wet (none as of yet). I will give this to her...She is the fastest chick in the west.

This thread just doesn't seem to die!

I've wondered why the SW region doesn't draw the number of riders it should, yet the local trackdays sell out and put ya' on a waiting list. The common response is that no one wants to involve themselves in racing and the commitment to completing a full season for the satisfaction of a few points, and with the proliferation of trackdays the need is served. I'm sure the same is true out east and in the Texas area, yet they have decent grids and a ton of trackdays to chose from. If you think it isn't so, check out the CMRA.com website- specifically their monthly newsletter. With 500 + entries for their last Texas World Speedway (TWS) event one has to wonder how they manage to do it. TWS isn't the greatest place, yet the turnouts are huge. This is also true in the SE and East coast regions. So what gives with the SW? I for one don't have the answers but am willing to do what I can to address the issues we face and promote the sport in any way I can.
As for the bike selections- it's ashamed there isn't more interest and participation in the ultralight and lightweight classes. It's cheap racing and alot of fun. I know there are alot of the smaller bikes out there and would love to see people bring them back out to the track and have some fun.
Stone, Pat, Randy and all else concerned please keep me in the loop and let me know what I can do to help this along. The alternative is chasing the WERA West and other assorted organizations race schedule which means alot of travel and alot less fun, so we should quit the back-biting and all work harder to make the SW Region a great place to race. We all know we've paid for it and we deserve it, but we're going to have to work harder for it!

Al, running WERA West generally costs a LOT more too.  That's one of the reasons I don't run with them.  The "trackday" instead of practice at the big tracks I really have trouble justifying the expense...that's why I wasn't at Vegas this past weekend for the USGPRU round.  Apparently I am not the only one thinking like that...

A whole 5 racers in the 250 race and only 10 in the 125 race.  YIKES!

-Brian

QuoteThe 2 strokes are cool but not everyones cup of tea. I personally wouldnt want to race them due to all the maintence. The last race in Vegas I saw everyone's 125/250 up on stands while their owners worked on them constantly. If I wanted to do that I would go back to drag racing Harleys.  

I guess that's why the example I had recognized four strokes, generally.

125GP bikes haven't needed a whole lot when I've raced them.  250's are a bit more fickle.  

But if you want to argue...

...the SV is ths sh1t when it comes to racing.  Decent package, lots of availablity for parts in the paddock.  And no other real competiton from other manufacturers...so, you know which bike you want to get to race.  No worry's.  Tires aren't such a problem, etc.