Should apply everywhere?
Policies are put in place by people. They they should be executed for all of those forms of information based on certain criteria.
If one cannot execute the policy with consistency, a policy enacted by one person not in agreement with another, then why does the policy exist?
Exuse me, but I'm lost. What are you talking about? ??? ??? ??? ??? ???
If someone institutes a policy w/o the approval or consent of another person, it is more than likely an attempt to govern that person, and force them into doing something.
Should consistency apply everywhere? No. There are times where rules, polices need to be in place and it is impossible to get everyone to consent to institute that policy, therefore the majority rules, and the minority loses...
I would agree with Mike here.
Blind compliance of a 'policy' without some reasonable, objectionable judgement is a BAD thing.
If this were the case and/or possible, policies would never change.
So where were you going with this SD?
Policy is put into place by people that believe they are smarter than what group the policy is for. Hence they have no reason to follow policy, whence its for those who have lesser intelligence.
Usually policy is a hinderance to you because the people that made the policy didnt have a clue what to do and hence dedided that since they didnt know what to do, then everyone else would need to be told what to do.
Rarely policy can be made to work for you.
Sometimes you just have to bendover and take it like a man.
Which policy Dave?
Some messages are getting moved into other sections.
Reason said is that they are from people that are making money doing the thing they are posting about.
However, that is not consistently being done.
Items, like bikes and parts, etc...yeah, I think they belong in classifieds.
Some "items" are that tangeble. Schools, track days, services. Additional things, racing fuel availablity, and the like. How about photographers?
If you're charging for a picture, you're "making money". Does that now belong in "classifieds"?
If you have sponsors, you're certainly trying to make money, or at least stop the bleeding. Given that, press releases and information, ultimately it generates press or even hits on a website...that generates something that can be used to "sell" the sponsorship or even create a rate to charge a paying advertiser...
My goodness Dave....
You never let anything go, do ya? It makes me wonder if you have ulcers. If you don't, I'd be really surprised.
I was receiving a lot of e-mails over concerns about a couple of threads. This is one of them....
http://www.racemotorcycles.com/cgi-bin/board/YaBB.pl?board=ccsclass;action=display;num=1118782318
These were threads where, quite honestly, some of you were acting like a bunch of asses. I hate to say it, but read it again and you will see it.
So instead of just nuking the thread, I moved it to classifieds where it quitely faded into the sunset. The only thing that didn't fade was your (Super_Dave's) annoying and harrasing PM's about "are you going to move this? - - are you going to move this? - - what about this?"
So Dave....
If you continue to bring this up, I will more than willing to share some of your PM's that you sent me with the board. I'm sure that some would be extremly surprised at the things that you have wrote.
Oh BTW.... Even after the stupid ass things you have pulled on this board, I have offered my hand in friendship. Now I'm wondering why I even bother.
Your acting like a child, grow up!
Dawn
Let's set some of the personal differences from the past aside. No more throwing things into each other's face.
A. If only selective enforcement of current policy is the case, why? Do we, a. Need a different moderator to enforce policy, or b. Need a change of policy? Is the situation more complicated than that and merits me minding my own business?
Quote Let's set some of the personal differences from the past aside. No more throwing things into each other's face.
A. If only selective enforcement of current policy is the case, why? Do we, a. Need a different moderator to enforce policy, or b. Need a change of policy? Is the situation more complicated than that and merits me minding my own business?
I was asked to be the moderator and was informed by the administrator to 'keep the spirit of the board' a positive one. When approached by members of this board over a concern of a particular thread, I will take a look at it and try to bring it back around to the reason we all come here in the first place. Sometimes I'm successful at it and sometimes I'm not. This was one thread that I was not.
When I'm not successful, then I need to become more drastic in my measures by either editing posts, moving, or deleting them. The thread above was moved. In hindsight, I should have probably deleted it.
I have no problem with anyone questioning why I did something, but remember: this is an internet bulletin board, there is no 'policy' so to speak, everything is subjective. Some will love what I do, and others will not.
So... to clearly answer your questions:
1) I was more than happy to let this issue fade into the sunset and everyone get back to 'normal' so to speak.
2) My counterpart did not see it that way and continued to harrass me over it.
3) There is no policy for the board, and there will not be. We're all adults here, right?
Dawn
Maybe it's a good thing there are 3 moderators. That way when 2 are disagreeing, the 3rd can step in.
This is just my observation, Dawn, but most of us didn't even know what SD was specifically talking about. Most were discussing the definition of "policy." But by posting the link to the thread you wanted to have "fade into the sunset," you just dumped fuel on the fire (and brought more attention to that thread). There's no need to justify your position as moderator. I'd recommend taking this disagreement up with Shawn (since it's his board and he has the final word) rather than discussing it here on the message board.
And posting PM's publicly on the message board (or threatening to do so) is just not cool.
QuoteAnd posting PM's publicly on the message board (or threatening to do so) is just not cool.
I totally agree, however, even after I stated my position and why it was done, Dave would not let the issue go. He chose to bring it up in the public forum. That being the case, the PM's he sent regarding this issue and the root cause for it should be public also.
I chose not to respond to the issue any longer, but then was presented with this thread. Personally, I think it's a waste of my time. However, I took on the responsibility of moderator and I care about all on this board. I will continue to moderate as I have in the past.
I apologise to everyone for this situation that has been created between Dave and myself. Hopefully he will agree with me and allow it to end quietly.
Dawn
Sorry, I misunderstod. I read Dave's beef to be that goods and services for sale should be in the classifieds section, and that some services listed under General section were being moved and some were not.
Quote Sorry, I misunderstod. I read Dave's beef to be that goods and services for sale should be in the classifieds section, and that some services listed under General section were being moved and some were not.
Yeah, I screwed up. I didn't tell Dave the 'real' reason for moving the thread because I didn't feel like dealing with the recoil that I knew I was going to receive from him. I guess I was going to get it no matter what.
Live and learn....
Now back to your regular scheduled programming. ;D
Dawn ;)
Still doesn't change anything...
STT posted something, and you moved it to Classified.
Track Addix posted something, and you moved it to Classified because I'm ranting.
Which one do you want?
Ranting or because they are making an effort to make money?
NESBA is non profit...per se, so, what do you do there?
We've got people selling VP here, a contingency sponsor in CCS, but the dealer is making a profit on the product.
I don't see that any of these should be in Classified.
If they do, then move all the race reports to classified too. That's "making money" in the form of sponsorship, which is still income for my books.
I may not agree with all the track day programs, nor do I endorce them, etc. However, I think it's reasonable to allow them to post with out getting buried under the classified section. Posters use those opportunities to answer questions and get out information about the track day, etc.
What do you do with the photographers that charge for pictures?
CCS is part of CCE which IS a company looking to make a profit. Should their posts be moved to Classified too?
If we're cleaning up the board, we should move jokes to the test section or get Shawn to build an "OPEN" section.
Your court...
QuoteIf they do, then move all the race reports to classified too. That's "making money" in the form of sponsorship, which is still income
HEY! I am proud to say that I don't have one single sponser! I fit all my own bills and don't even take contengency money. So don't say I post my Race Reports for sponsership money
;D ;D
(This is an attempt to be funny :P Please don't ban me )
;D
Dave you can continue blog this all you want.....
I'm no longer going to respond to this issue. Feel free to contact Shawn if you so desire.
Dawn
Wouldn't this be a great time for a piece of rhubarb pie? Blackcap berries perhaps? The wife and I lucked out as there is a beautiful spot west of town where we can walk the dog in the woods, off a leash, next to a river. Earlier this spring a young pair of eagles built a HUGE nest. The babies are just starting to get their lungs and SQUEEAK pretty noisily now. Anyway, on the sides of the trail there are lots of blackcap bushes. So far we've gone berry picking 3 times that yielded a couple pies and about 6 lbs. of berries in the fridge for making jam and using for ice cream toppings. The woods smell like summer. The river's low from not much rain. What's my point? How important is this issue of moving stuff around from one area to the next? I go in for heart surgery next week on the 20th; I know you don't have a heart condition yet, Dave, but just how important is this in the overall scheme of things? In the Big picture? About as important as a couple guys from Pennsylvania gouging people on generators, right? ;)
LOL...generators...
Hey, if someone can't post information and someone else can post information...
Probably better margin in photography than there is in racing schools. But if someone posted a racing school or a track day post...then it would be moved to Classified.
But a photographer can post.
I think they both should.
And I think someone should be able to post information about their success or hardship. And I think if you sell VP or Power Mist and you're gonna or not gonna be somewhere, I think that belongs also in General.
I really just disagree here, and, until now, I have refused to move things that have been moved by you, Dawn.
But...."Dave would not let the issue go. He chose to bring it up in the public forum. That being the case, the PM's he sent regarding this issue and the root cause for it should be public also.
I chose not to respond to the issue any longer,"
Since you chose not to respond to me, you closed any communication.
What consistency is there in it?
I have not posted any PM's.
Quote I didn't tell Dave the 'real' reason
QuoteWe're all adults here, right?
Quotecounterpart
???
Much easier to be a counterpart when we all act like adults and actually fess up.
I moved STT's posts back to General, and I'll do it for others that post information that is similar.
Policy...No, there isn't anything written, but we had this once before about a year ago, and we agreed otherwise. Then there was a change. Communication was shut off. No reply.
Fine.
QuoteSTT posted something, and you moved it to Classified.
If you look closely, Monte posted in Classifieds in not in the general section. If it was moved, there would be a link in the general section with a lock that said "moved by ______."
Just a suggestion... Perhaps we need a "services" section. Trackday orgs, schools, photographers, race shops, etc. could post there without getting burried in "ZX6R Valvestem for sale" posts.
To me, these posts don't really fit all that well in general or classifieds, but could warrant their own home.
QuoteLOL...generators...
Hey, if someone can't post information and someone else can post information...
Probably better margin in photography than there is in racing schools. But if someone posted a racing school or a track day post...then it would be moved to Classified.
But a photographer can post.
I think they both should.
And I think someone should be able to post information about their success or hardship. And I think if you sell VP or Power Mist and you're gonna or not gonna be somewhere, I think that belongs also in General.
I really just disagree here, and, until now, I have refused to move things that have been moved by you, Dawn.
But...."Dave would not let the issue go. He chose to bring it up in the public forum. That being the case, the PM's he sent regarding this issue and the root cause for it should be public also.
I chose not to respond to the issue any longer,"
Since you chose not to respond to me, you closed any communication.
What consistency is there in it?
OK, how important is it? 1-10
QuoteIf you look closely, Monte posted in Classifieds in not in the general section. If it was moved, there would be a link in the general section with a lock that said "moved by ______."
I trash the moved by things after a few days because they just take up space for stuff that is being talked about.
I've been doing it for quite some time. There are only twenty spots for ongoing first page discussions. At times, it's very active.
Lately, not.
I have asked Shawn about adding other sections. Hasn't happened.
QuoteI have asked Shawn about adding other sections. Hasn't happened.
I've volunteered to upgrade the board to the latest version of supported code which will provide far more functionality and usability... no reply...
Race reports are quite a stretch ..
My 2 cents; Dave has the right to vent (female cannine), he is a Moderator, he has a point. The absence of a policy in place for this specific thread just says that there are some people that have been choosen to THINK and to and to make decisions based on specificity.
Dawn likes to play nice and to make nice with everyone. (not a bad quality for a person ;D)As a moderator to make decisions and to keep "consistancy" she is not the person to do so. It takes nuts for this. Policy is Dawn's friend and she can operate more efficiently with policy. (Corporate America...) This is a public bulletin board and to speak in public is just free speach. Or, it is a private bulletin board and all is censored?
Ever hear the saying; "using their handbooks instead of their heads"? A lot of wrong decisions are made due to "Policy". One should be EXTREMELY careful before installing a "Policy".
Which one is it Moderators?
Oh, this is SOOOOO gonna cost me....
Consistancy? How about this? Dave, lately you have been a consistant pain in the ass!
Near as I can see, this particular version of an ongoing bloody mess got started because K3 CHRIS ONWILER had the AUDACITY to suggest that putting SV650 mounted novice street riders out in the same session with GSXR1000 riding expert racers at a track like Road America sounded like a bad idea. I certianly am not the only one to feel this way. Any time you have 50-60 mph speed differences, you have a dangerous situation. Mixing levels of talent makes it worse. CCS tries to avoid situations like that. All the other track day orgs try to avoid situations like that. Even the safety director at Road America saw it that way, and he groups high performance vehicles for a living. Perhaps the fact that Road America wouldn't allow you to do it your way might tell you something?
Now, anyone who's ever been out on a racetrack could see that this wasn't wise practice, but that bit of logic didn't jive with the policy of the guy who was letting you run your school at his event. Near as I can see, you decided that it was more important to loudly defend an unwise policy that was making you money than it was to use sound judgment. To that end, you started assasinating the character of anyone who disagreed with you.
Dave, you jumped all over me like I was clueless about how track days work, even going so far as to slyly infer that I didn't have the nads to be out there in fast company. Not only was that low, unprofessional, and undeserved, but it was just plain mean. You never talked that way to me when I was singing the praises of your school at awards banquets! So what? The minute I disagree with you, (or stop giving you money) I become a worthless P.O.S. who doesn't deserve to have an OPINION? Over the past year, I've noticed many instances where you've belittled past customers and friends, simply because they didn't share your attitude on a given point. Just my opinion, but that's no way to keep friends and influience customers, buddy.
Back to the Road America track day thread. That one really turned into a pissing match. At the time, I decided to back away and let it go. But YOU won't let it go. Dawn tried to kill the thread by moving it, because people were complaining. (I was not one of the complainers. I can take care of myself.) But you had to go off on this policy rant. Really, I don't think you care what posts where. You just enjoy arguing, and won't let anything go!
Screw it! Somebody has to tell you that you're acting like a spoiled child. What's next? Will you put your hands over your ears and scream until everyone else leaves the board?
In other words, Dave, you were WRONG! But rather than admit that, or even ALLOW SOMEONE ELSE TO HAVE A VIEWPOINT, you decided to go on a tirade. Dawn tried to move the thread and let it die, but you started new threads to continue the argument. At this point, it doesn't seem to be about anything other than you insisting on having the last word.
Just for the record, Dave, have you EVER been wrong? Have you EVER just let something go? I got so embarassed by that track day thread that I started apologizing for having offered my opinion in the first place!
Seriously, dude. It's like no one can have an opinion unless it agrees with yours, and sometimes you are actually arguing against logic! It's almost as if Cornercamping Dan killed you and stole your body! Whatever happened to the Super Dave we all used to know and love? This whole thing isn't about separating threads that might make someone some money. It's about trying to calm YOU, and abate your ranting.
Well, I've really painted a bullseye on my chest now. If I happen to turn up missing....
Any time you have 50-60 mph speed differences, you have a dangerous situation. Mixing levels of talent makes it worse. CCS tries to avoid situations like that.
So, there IS NO problem mixing GTL and GTU No difference as far as I can see in closing speeds. ;)
I'm not taking a side here, but that's a lame argument. Especially when it involves safety, CCS and that decision. It's about $$ when decisions are made like that. Since both races took 25 minutes to run and CCS needed to condense their schedule; blah, blah, blah. There you have it.
No policy in place there yet.....
Just as an outsider looking in.
Wouldn't it be a conflict of interest to be a moderator of a board where you were trying to promote events/products that he/she would financially benefit from?
Maybe it would make more sense to resign as moderator so you can continue to promote your products.
QuoteJust a suggestion... Perhaps we need a "services" section. Trackday orgs, schools, photographers, race shops, etc. could post there without getting burried in "ZX6R Valvestem for sale" posts.
To me, these posts don't really fit all that well in general or classifieds, but could warrant their own home.
that's a great idea. They made a cornerworker section. Why can't we have a products/services forum?
You could! The problem is, the guy who owns the forum has either:
No time
No interest
No ability
to make the changes....
Shawn, this isn't a blast at you (if you even read this), because I MORE than understand the time commitment, life, etc. But it would be cool to consider letting a few people help you out...
QuoteYou could! The problem is, the guy who owns the forum has either:
No time
No interest
No ability
to make the changes....
Shawn, this isn't a blast at you (if you even read this), because I MORE than understand the time commitment, life, etc. But it would be cool to consider letting a few people help you out...
this is currently the problem that Super Dave and Dawn are having. Shawn picked moderators that maybe we too close to the goings-on of the board. One of the other motorcycle boards I am on uses mostly moderators that don't even ride and are not interested in motorcycles. They just keep the boards on an even keel and moving along nicely.
I just want to keep it civil on the board. I have nothing to gain as the moderator. No sponsors, no business to promote, just here to keep and even keel so to speak.
Unfortunately I've lost control of the rudder.... :-/
Dawn
Quote It's almost as if Cornercamping Dan killed you and stole your body!
Thats low. :o
QuoteI just want to keep it civil on the board. I have nothing to gain as the moderator. No sponsors, no business to promote, just here to keep and even keel so to speak.
Unfortunately I've lost control of the rudder.... :-/
Dawn
As it should be! That's the whole point of being a moderator...being neutral..not having an agenda!
Dawn, don't let this get you down. FWIW IMHO you're doing great at a thankless job. You've managed to keep the drama to a minimum which is always tough on a board like this.
Thanks Jack!
We miss your smiling face around here.
;)
FYI, I've sent Shawn a polite email asking if he could include a section for product and service announcements. (copied to Dawn and Dave, of course) If others would consider doing this as well, it will help all of us who make part our living providing you guys what you need. The forum email addy is race@racemotorcycles.com.
I know the other board has a Politics and Religion section as well, if you would feel this would be a useful addition, you might petition Shawn to add that section if he were so inclined to make such changes.
I post just like anyone else.
Let's get this in the open.
I have a school. There are others that have a school or a track day program as well. I've never had a problem with anyone posting information about their program. If someone raises BS...I'll call them on that...just like I would otherwise. If I wanted to, I could sticky anything I wanted. I don't. I've sticky-ed thing for others...sometimes I'm asked, and sometimes I recognize the importance and do it after reading.
I disagreed with a moderators movemet of posts in August of 2004 of a similar nature. There was communication, and the posts were left in the general section. I made suggestions for adding more sections on this board, as I am unable to do so.
In June of 2005, posts of a similar nature were moved. I privately inquired and made the same case that I made in 2004, trying to maintain the consistency that the board had. Eventually, I was met with, I'll paraphase...I'll discuss this no further...
As for having a section that is Services or whatever...
I think there needs to be an "open" section where people can post their jokes and stuff. There's a good deal of that taking up space in the general section. There's seldom twenty new things happening in the general section.
QuoteI post just like anyone else.
Let's get this in the open.
I have a school. There are others that have a school or a track day program as well. I've never had a problem with anyone posting information about their program. If someone raises BS...I'll call them on that...just like I would otherwise. If I wanted to, I could sticky anything I wanted. I don't. I've sticky-ed thing for others...sometimes I'm asked, and sometimes I recognize the importance and do it after reading.
I disagreed with a moderators movemet of posts in August of 2004 of a similar nature. There was communication, and the posts were left in the general section. I made suggestions for adding more sections on this board, as I am unable to do so.
In June of 2005, posts of a similar nature were moved. I privately inquired and made the same case that I made in 2004, trying to maintain the consistency that the board had. Eventually, I was met with, I'll paraphase...I'll discuss this no further...
As for having a section that is Services or whatever...
I think there needs to be an "open" section where people can post their jokes and stuff. There's a good deal of that taking up space in the general section. There's seldom twenty new things happening in the general section.
you didn't comment on my conflict of interest post. Any particular reason?
Quoteyou didn't comment on my conflict of interest post. Any particular reason?
I will...
Conflict of interest can be mitigated with attention and an open mind. I admin and own like 10 forums. I deal with the potential to sway MANY people to purchase things from my sponsors. If it's the right thing, I will send them. If it's not, I won't. My sponsors know that and appreciate it. It keeps us all honest.
As for not having MC people moderate boards? Why not? They know the business, know the people, know the industry. They just need to have an open mind.
I won't jump on the bandwagon and comment for or against Dave in any way at this point, as it's not beneficial for anyone.
The point is... Conflict of interest can be mitigated with a little attention. It's not that difficult.
After following this thread for the last few days; throwing in my two cents, I have another few cents to toss into the pot:
For instance, if I decide that the "General" topic of this forum and its readers may benefit from me bringing to the attention, that I have a track day scheduled prior to a certain day of racing, I see that it only utilizes this forum as a conduit for the elivery of information. That may benefit those in my geographic region. (as this is nation wide)
If on the other hand, I make a habit, have a pattern of mentioning the same thing every month, I can undestand that some may obsevrve this as abuse or in Dave's case a conflict.
I have been a member of this forum for about a year now and have noticed that when mentioned, Dave's comments to the readers of this forum are informative and sometimes entertaining. Yes, I do notice a "plug" now and then.
Is there abuse or conflict of interests here? I think the first question I would ask is; 1) does this deminishing the spirit of this forum, 2) are the readers benefitting from the information, 3) is the information placed in "General" broad and not specific, as to place it in the other topic catagories?
Quoteyou didn't comment on my conflict of interest post. Any particular reason?
Did I need to?
How many posts do you see that I put up about my school?
I'm the one sticking up for other track day and school programs here.
If we're talking "control" of a rudder...
I didn't know there was any agenda of controling a rudder...
Yeah, we don't have a whole lot of slamming here...
But, schools and track day orgs, businesses offering race support have been allowed to post info. Certainly important info.
Since I'm a moderator...again, there aren't a lot of other people that would do it...I shouldn't be allowed the same freedom as other posters?
Again, I could sticky my own information. Wouldn't be right now would it.
So, how was BHF this weekend? I got down to see John Wood and pick up some authentic Stumpy take offs-Thanks John for the delivery. The paddock looked full coming out of the pit out area overflowing to the Sahara flats where heat waves could be seen shimmering. Had to leave at about 90 degrees, that was 10:45am. Everything go alright today? (This is the General area of the forum where we talk about RACING, right?)
Hey Todd, Glad you got them safe and sound.
You'd think staying away from Blackhawk would also mean staying away from road rash. Not so. Stumpy had his first get off on the road bike Saturday going about 35 mph. Another biker in the group rubbed his front tire and Stumpy fell. He got away with a lot of scrapes, but the guy who ran him over wasn't so lucky and landed face first, split his lip to his nose and knocked out all his front teeth.
My first reaction: "This wasn't supposed to happen this weekend."
Are there any dangers to golf? ::)
Heather
QuoteAre there any dangers to golf? ::)
Heather
Perhaps only this one.....
(https://www.ccsforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.iqe.ethz.ch%2Fiprm99%2F19hole.GIF&hash=ee7c5a4a44bab419e69e302efe028032446fa1c1)
;D