Dawn/SD/Shawn - please sticky this.
Folks,
This last weekend, it was noted that there are no longer refunds for those spectators who show up on Saturday and leave on Saturday. Now, before everyone blames Kevin, it was stated that HE was the one who ORIGINALLY instituted the partial refund.
However, that being the case, he gets to be the recipient of the mass emails to reinstate this.
Please send off an email yourself and also send to anyone who ever comes to watch you race, urging them to send it too.
Here's what I'm sending out to my friends/family/fans.
Folks,
Very recently, a policy was changed which now does not allow for a partial refund for spectators who only want to view Saturday's racing. So if you show up for Saturday, you will pay full weekend spectator price (typically $25) with no refund. PLEASE send an email to Kevin Elliot below:
kevinelliott@clearchannel.com
Mr. Elliott,
I am a fan of CCS roadracing, and attend racing events as a spectator as often as possible. It has recently come to my attention that I can no longer get a partial refund should I only attend Saturday's races.
Unfortunately, this will prohibit my attendance at numerous events.
I sincerely hope you can reconsider this decision and keep pricing reasonable for the competitors and spectators alike.
Sincerely,
XXXXX
=====================================
As a racer, here's what I'm writing:
Kevin,
I'm doing my best to get folks out to the track to watch me race. I enjoy sharing it with them as much as they enjoy watching it. However, now that they cannot get a partial refund for a Saturday-only attendance, many people are not going to be showing up.
I'm not sure what drove the decision, but hope that it can be reconsidered. I believe there will be LESS money collected now than if the partial refund continued to be offered.
$25 for a single day of club-level racing is pretty steep in my opinion and that of my friends/family/fans.
Thank you for your time.
Sincerely,
-Jeff Kufalk
Midwest EX-42
Was better when you could just get a sat only pass. But thanks to some really dishonest people a few years ago who decidede to stay overnight and not go back and get a sunday pass in teh morning, they had to go to buy a full weekend pass on sat. >:(
As I stated at the meeting, why not have a different color wrist band for the saturday only people. Make that band a highly visible color that would stand out obviously on Sunday, make whole event wrist bands a color very different from those. Just a thought. :)
If I recall correctly, in years past, when you came in on Sat, you paid FULL price. When you LEFT, your wristband was cut off and you were given your partial refund.
That's a SIMPLE system which is effective. It forces people to pay the full price and LEAVE the track when they're done.
QuoteIf I recall correctly, in years past, when you came in on Sat, you paid FULL price. When you LEFT, your wristband was cut off and you were given your partial refund.
That's a SIMPLE system which is effective. It forces people to pay the full price and LEAVE the track when they're done.
I agree. What's wrong with that system? I can guarantee at least 6 people will
not show up at BHF on memorial day if this policy is in effect.
Quote As I stated at the meeting, why not have a different color wrist band for the saturday only people. Make that band a highly visible color that would stand out obviously on Sunday, make whole event wrist bands a color very different from those. Just a thought. :)
Thats how it was in 99 and 2000.
One could argue cost/confusion/etc over the multiple colored wristbands.
You can't argue that a wristband is either present or is not present...
And here's the response that goes out to the letters...
---------------------------- Original Message ---------------------------- Subject: RE: Partial gate refunds
From: "ELLIOTT, KEVIN M" <Kevin.Elliott@SFX.com>
Date: Mon, May 9, 2005 2:11 pm
To: jeff@cbr600rr.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thank you for your letter regarding Saturday tickets at Blackhawk Farms.
Unfortunately, through the dishonest actions of others, everyone is paying a price.
Several years ago when Blackhawk stopped selling Saturday only tickets, (Because people would buy Saturday only tickets and then camp out to avoid the Sunday gate fee), we convinced them that we should offer Saturday refunds up to 60 minutes past the last checkered flag for those leaving on Saturday.
At first this seemed to work great, but as time went on, people found ways to abuse this courtesy until starting with this season the policy was changed to no gate pass refunds. Once again the dishonest actions of the minority cause problems for the majority.
We apologize if this inconveniences you and your friends, but our
choices were either more security (which would raise the gate fees even higher), or to only sell a full weekend pass that would allow us to continue without increasing costs to the majority of our racers and their crew members.
Kevin Elliott
Director of Operations-Road Race
Clear Channel Entertainment - Motor Sports
3001 Ramona Drive
Fort Worth, Texas 76116
817-332-4822 Ext. 103
817-332-5633 Fax
=========================================
Now, I can respect what you're saying Kevin, but the system can be made much easier and simpler. CRA has 2 different colored armbands. Visual and simple.
Paying full weekend price and then Cutting off an armband for a partial refund Saturday night is far more effective and reliable in my opinion.
I simply can't see why this wouldn't work. How does someone get around this? If they're coming back in without a wrist band, they're coming in without buying one in the first place, and there's nothing you can do about that other than increase security. Punishing the honest, paying customers isn't the solution here.
This policy does *NOTHING* to benefit racing.
Attendance is terribly low and will only get worse because of this. WE, the racers, lose in the end...
I don't see how the different wristband thing'll work. No one comes around to check if anyone's wearing them or not now, so what would that solve?
QuoteI don't see how the different wristband thing'll work. No one comes around to check if anyone's wearing them or not now, so what would that solve?
Exactly, which is why I suggested having people cut their wristbands for the refund upon exit.
QuoteI don't see how the different wristband thing'll work. No one comes around to check if anyone's wearing them or not now, so what would that solve?
If no one is checking wristbands at all, then people are probably hiding in the back of the van to avoid buying any wristband.
The 2 color system seems to have worked just fine in the SW.
-z.
QuoteI don't see how the different wristband thing'll work. No one comes around to check if anyone's wearing them or not now, so what would that solve?
They did at Gateway once.
Removing the wristband is the best option. Make them pay for the whole weekend then give them back 10 bucks if they turn it in.
It really will hurt attendance IMO. How much does it cost to buy an AMA ticket? Can't you go there for around the same price?
QuoteThe 2 color system seems to have worked just fine in the SW.
As long as one wristband isn't schoolbus yellow and the other is fluorescent yellow. :-X
;D
hahahahahahaha....Enough about the color yellow! I can't take it any more. The nightmares I have, oh please will it never stop, make the madness go away :o
;D
Good effort Jeff. I hope someone listens.
On Friday I asked at the gate how much it would cost for my sister and brother-in-law, who live 20 minutes away, to watch me race. They've never been to an event and I intended to invite them. I was told it would be $50 for both just for the one day. I thought she was making a joke.
There's no way I'm going to invite friends and family to the track at that price. Too bad for everyone if it isn't changed.
QuoteOn Friday I asked at the gate how much it would cost for my sister and brother-in-law, who live 20 minutes away, to watch me race. They've never been to an event and I intended to invite them. I was told it would be $50 for both just for the one day. I thought she was making a joke.
There's no way I'm going to invite friends and family to the track at that price. Too bad for everyone if it isn't changed.
Ironically this comes at the same time that we are putting out these new advertising cards at motorcycle facilities trying to increase spectator turnout. I'm tempted to warn about the gate fee on the display with the cards. I have had numerous people interested in spectating over the years, but the gate fee scared many away. This new policy will definately be a great repellent to those that can only attend Saturdays (it was at this last event for 2 people that I personally know). :-/
This really is a bum deal. I'm from the Blackhawk area and have dozens of family members, friends and freinds of friends that had planned to come out to support our team. I have had the chance to talk with several of them and their response is right in line with the others posting on this thread...Looks like we won't be seeing anyone on Saturday... :(
I'm just going to put a little note in here. Bill Fehrman indicated that if CCS got enough feedback, Kevin Eliiott would have some ammunition to go to CCE and perhaps get them to reconsider the issue.
Jeff has the right approach. Please contact Mr Elliott in a polite and business-like manner stating that you would like to see this policy changed.
Please remember that this forum is not an official affiliate of CCS or CCE. As a courtesy, Tiffiney and Kevin will occasionally respond to an issue or concern here if they feel they need to.
Hmmm......
Let's see... 25 bucks to watch us around a track.
30 bucks to watch the top superbike riders in the country do the same thing at Infineon raceway.
I fail to understand what's going on? Someone please tell me there is a valid reason for this.
I'd like to know how deep the prevolance of this is?
3%? So, like 3% of, what, 2000 people? Really, there are a lot more things to look at that would either make or break stuff better.
MOST people are pretty honest. No matter how it works, someone will find a way to cheat the system. But to make it unattractive to possible spectators to an already poorly attended event...
Whatever...
My point exactly Dave...
And to EVERYONE... PLEASE write Kevin... Please include a solution! The intitial response and reasoning is the cookie-cutter one which he has provided out.
I did get a more indepth response and dialogue with him on it though regarding the wrist band cutting. Here is the reasoning they quit:
On Mon, May 9, 2005 3:49 pm, ELLIOTT, KEVIN M said:
> Jeff,
>
> We tried the simple solution you suggested, it did not work as smooth as
> you envision it. (We tried that for two full years as a matter of fact.)
> The track was still inundated sometimes days and weeks after the event
> and all night long by people who had removed their bands seeking
> refunds, or my personal favorite, one person who would bring a handful
> of wristbands back for refunds because his family had left without
> stopping by for the removal by the proper person.
>
> The hassle factor became to great for the track's gate personnel, and
> since the one-day band was abused by 20% or more according to track
> surveys and we couldn't go back to that, this new policy was enacted.
>
> In the end, the actions of the few have once again affected many.
>
> Kevin
>
Guys/Gals... The reason is understandable, but CCS needs to work around it with RULES. Case in point, I showed up and tried to pre-reg on Friday night at 7:05pm. The staff was packing up, having a cold one. They could have processed my registration, but said they were closed and had closed at 7:00. It was a bummer, but it was A RULE! I understood it and respected it, and came back in the AM..
There's no reason that the gate staff can't enforce a rule on wristband refunds. People will still whine about it, but people whine by nature, and you'll NEVER get around that...
Ya know, if they had a "fan appreciation" weekend at BHF where the weekend gate fee was $10, I'll bet I could get 20 or more people out there myself... But with this price, I can have Motovid.com burn me a DVD of my own footage and send it to family/friends...
There were rules, the person wanting the refund had to go to the gate and the gate personal had to cut the wrist band off inorder to get the refund?!?!?!
Apparently that's how it worked, but it was only valid until 60 mins past the last checkered on Saturday night. After that, no refund, but people kept coming all night and days/weeks later.
I fail to see the problem here. This isn't an "offense/abuse", it's IDIOCY. If an idiot can't follow the rules, they're not offending anything. They're trying to break a rule which CCS should feel obligated to enforce.
They have no problem enforcing no kids riding pit bikes, no wheelies/stoppies/burnouts on the track, numbers on helmets, etc etc etc. This is just one more rule...
I can't express how unbelievably frustrating this is. I'd really like to see the gate data. I'd be willing to BET that we could bring in more $ if the rates were reasonable (say $10/day - $15/weekend)... People just don't/won't pay $25/day or weekend to watch us race...
QuoteApparently that's how it worked, but it was only valid until 60 mins past the last checkered on Saturday night. After that, no refund, but people kept coming all night and days/weeks later.
I fail to see the problem here. This isn't an "offense/abuse", it's IDIOCY. If an idiot can't follow the rules, they're not offending anything. They're trying to break a rule which CCS should feel obligated to enforce.
They have no problem enforcing no kids riding pit bikes, no wheelies/stoppies/burnouts on the track, numbers on helmets, etc etc etc. This is just one more rule...
I can't express how unbelievably frustrating this is. I'd really like to see the gate data. I'd be willing to BET that we could bring in more $ if the rates were reasonable (say $10/day - $15/weekend)... People just don't/won't pay $25/day or weekend to watch us race...
Yeah, a $60 Super Pass at RA is good for Thurs.-Sunday to study the AMA folks. This is a backslide for us...
QuoteI'd really like to see the gate data. I'd be willing to BET that we could bring in more $ if the rates were reasonable (say $10/day - $15/weekend)... People just don't/won't pay $25/day or weekend to watch us race...
I think we have a winner. Like I said ealier. A person can pay 30 bucks to see the "pros" but they're going to have to pay 25 to watch us? What is the incentive?
I'm a big proponent of charge less and get more people in the gate.
QuoteI'm a big proponent of charge less and get more people in the gate.
it's a shift in mentality though... and I don't know that it will ever happen...
I thought this started out as a partial refund issue, but now we're on to gate fees themselves.
I've got a different take on gate fees, and it might not be too popular. (Plus, I'll let on a little about my age :o ;))
In the mid 80s the gate fee at BFR was $15, and you did get a partial refund if you left on Saturday, but only if you did it within the rules.
The Mid 90s brought a $5 hike in gates fees, so it was $20 to get in. The refund issue wasn't really an issue
Now its 2005 and the gate fee is up $5 once more. Truely, a $5 hike every decade doesn't seem like that big of a deal to me. I know that insurance, medical staff and security costs have probably risen to offset the increase, and gates fees are a set fee we can all budget for at the begining of each season.
I would like to see the partial refund issue revisited, and it's my understanding that Kevin Elliott will be working to resolve this, but his hands are tied as gates fees are somewhat set by each venue CCS/FUSA visits.
It's why some race organizations/schools/track day promoters will not work with Road America any longer. It's just not cost effective.
I know that everyone wants their friends and family to come and watch them race. I don't really think there's anyone up at CCS rubbing their hands together drooling over all the additional fivers the weekend might have netted. It'd my belief that they want to find common ground on this issue.
This is an expensive sport, period. One of the largest expenses is liability insurance. Why? Racing is dangerous. Andy Feuer...had a relatively benign lowside exiting T4 last weekend. However, it turned spectacular when his bike decided it wanted to be a fighter jet and lauched off the curbing. How much do you think the gate fees will go up if something like that happens and the bike flies over the fence and hits a spectator and they sue? (it nearly did clear the fence) You can bet your race budget they will go up dramatically should anything of this nature should occur.
I will gladly pay the additional $5 hike this year, with or without a partial refund for early Saturday exit. Up to now, BFR has been at least trying to listen to everyone on safety issues (airfence with the help of RRW Action Fund, Gorde Lunde Sr. and CCS racers), clearing out trees in T5 and other areas of the track, and scheduling future improvements.
Just my 2 cents.
;)
Agreed Alexa, we should focus on the issue of the partial refund...
And start a new thread about having a NET installed on T4... (Gordy, or anyone taking notes and working with Mr. Irwin, please please please bring this up again... T4 is not really that safe...)
This was about a partial refund. We all realize, IN REALITY, that no matter what the gate fees were in the 80s, very few people will pay $25 to come watch their brother/sister/friend to run a couple races on Saturday or Sunday. This new "no refund policy" will actually encourage more cheating.(Hiding 2 in the trunk.)
Last year a friend wanted to bring his two nephews to a race weekend. I honestly did not know what the gate fees were for kids and I told him so. They did have a great time, BUT they will not be back. He made that clear. I did not ask how much he paid, but it was disturbing to him. He brought up Road America and it's fees. What could I tell him?
Tell him that BHF has comparable expenses to the world class facility of 600 or so acres at R. America? My only response was that we love being there, and yes we'll pay that to race. He understood our point of view, but it does not agree with his WALLET. Lost 3 great fans in one weekend. I'll e-mail Mr. Elliot like I actually should have last year...
There's still a Sunday only price of $15 so I'd encourage local friends to come on Sunday if they want to pick one.
Heather
Well, Kevin's mail box has been disabled... >:(
Oh well...
QuoteThere's still a Sunday only price of $15 so I'd encourage local friends to come on Sunday if they want to pick one.
Heather
Good encouragement and advice Heather. I'm doing the same, but I know there are some who can only show up on Sat's...
I've probably got 15-20 people send emails already!!