Ok so I'm fairly new to this, ran a couple track days last year and plan on doing a school then recing next season.
I bought a 97' GSXR-750 that I have sharskinz for, and will be putting those on.
First of all, what are the safety wire requirements for CCS? Second how much is really need to do to this bike for a beginner. Basically I hear people always talking about running race slicks, suspension upgrades. I'm curious to see what is REALLY needed. I mean just starting out what do you have to do to start learning? The way I see it, is I'm not going to be outriding the stock suspension or a good set of street tires right off the bat. Am I wrong, are all these upgrades needed for someone just starting out?
I want to improve my riding, and I think I have plenty of learning to do on this bike without upgrading anything. Please comment I'm interested to hear the opinion of those who are already doing this, what did you do when you started, and what would you have changed about it?
Things you have to do;
1. Belly pan. (Youv'e got that covered with the Sharkskins)
2.Safety wire. See a rule book.
3.No antifreeze. Use stuff like Water Wetter.
4.A good set of race tires.
Things that might be nice;
1.Steel brake lines on the front.
2.Steering dampner
What you don't need;
1.Suspension mods
2.Race exhaust
3.Race brake pads
4.extra gearing
5.engine mods
6.Race fuel
I ran my first year with this set up. I think I did OK with it. ;) I'm running the same set up next year. Most likely as an expert. ;D Make upgrades as needed. Later, Kevin (Get the popcorn)
QuoteI ran my first year with this set up. I think I did OK with it. ;) I'm running the same set up next year. Most likely as an expert. ;D Make upgrades as needed. Later, Kevin (Get the popcorn)
Kevin,
Did you ever stop to think that maybe with some suspension mods... that you might have actually run in the top 10 in the classes that you didn't do as well as you did in F40? Stop buying new hockey gear and buy yourself some suspension! :)
Hey, I was having fun this season. What's wrong with that? I did say to upgrade as needed. I just think a person ought to go minimal in case they suck or something comes up so that they have to quit. If after a few races, they know there going to stick with it, go all out. As for me, Iv'e found the limit of my set-up, and ride at 8/10 of that. I'm happy with that. Also I'm a real tightwad. ;D (I did just get a sweet deal on some new shoulder pads though.)
QuoteHey, I was having fun this season. What's wrong with that? I did say to upgrade as needed. I just think a person ought to go minimal in case they suck or something comes up so that they have to quit. If after a few races, they know there going to stick with it, go all out. As for me, Iv'e found the limit of my set-up, and ride at 8/10 of that. I'm happy with that. Also I'm a real tightwad. ;D (I did just get a sweet deal on some new shoulder pads though.)
I just figured that you could still ride at 8/10 and be alot faster with some well sorted out suspension. Either way... you're better than me so I'll shush. :)
QuoteEither way... you're better than me so I'll shush. :)
You play hockey too? ???
QuoteYou play hockey too? ???
I don't play hockey but my cousin used to play for the Pittsburg Penguins, LA kings and Ottawa Senators. ;) Can you guess who he is?
QuoteI don't play hockey but my cousin used to play for the Pittsburg Penguins, LA kings and Ottawa Senators. ;) Can you guess who he is?
??Vlademir Skruwdabych ???
Quote??Vlademir Skruwdabych ???
NO NO NO! Jagr be his name ... ;D
Oh, I forgot about L.A. My thoughts were clouded by "The Great One" Wait a minute.... your cousin? Were the hell are you from? ;D
QuoteOh, I forgot about L.A. My thoughts were clouded by "The Great One" Wait a minute.... your cousin? Were the hell are you from? ;D
I'm from Chicago. Raised in Northbrook, IL. Born in Seoul, Korea in 1971. My cousin is from there too... duh :D
Jagr is Korean ???
QuoteJagr is Korean ???
No.. but Jim Paek is :) I was kidding about Jagr.. :D I saw a Bob Probert at a bar once... I think I can kick his ass!
Sorry lbk! I'll move this to the beer thread. Brian?
Thanks for the move, and the comments. I notice you say you HAVE TO HAVE race tires, is that regulation or recommendation?
Also what is the price difference and longevety between a sticky set of street tires, and race tires?
Street tires are made from a compound designed for long wear (they are "hard"). Race tires are made from a softer compound designed to allow for maximum traction (they are "soft" and "grippy"). Not all race tires are "slicks" - most do have a tread pattern. All have wear indicators similar to street tires.
Race tires are susceptible to heat. Over time, they will begin to harden - and become less sticky. Therefore, you will go through race tires much faster than the tires on your streetbike.
I was shocked at how much brake fade I got on my first weekend when I tried to use street pads and stock brake lines and old brake fluid. No question about it in my mind, I would upgrade the stuff up front brake-wise and definately get race compound tires.
When you get to the track, see the Perelli guy and let him set you up. It'll be worth it. But I'd get a steering damper (it can save your butt) and by the 2nd trip I'd get EBC pads. After that look at suspension. Power is last on any list if your looking to get fast and the first newbie error.
QuoteWhat you don't need;
1.Suspension mods
Also I'm a real tightwad.
Ok, someone NEEDS to straighten this out. Suspension is THE MOST IMPORTANT THING. The motorcycle must fuction. If it is unable to transfer weight correctly, it will not slow down, it will shake (why people buy steering dampeners first), you will be unable to control the motorcycle correctly. By using race tires, which have a higher operating temperature, you will be using a front tire with a "70" aspect ratio. That will raise the front end up. That moves the center of gravity of the bike (BCg) rear ward.
I could go into issues of swingarm angle etc.
But, if the bike doesn't work right, you will just work with what you've got. You'll crash coming out of corners because of the way it reacts accelerating. You'll struggle with riding faster, but not tell anyone because you think that everyone else has the same problem. Additionally, many of the braking problems are related to this issue.
I use stock pads on my bike until they are done, then move on to a set of DP Brakes, or what ever I'm using that year.
I work with riders at my school at many different levels. I can make the stock suspensions "work" a little better, but they are not right. Only a replacement rear shock can give you adjustable ride height and some better dampening. Having the forks done by a shop that actually does road race forks, like Traxxion Dynamics or one of its Axxion Centers.
A good school can help, but that's a shameless plug.
I hope that helps a bit.
race tires are recomended they are as cheap in the long run cheaper if you count body work saved.
Dave, I know someone who won 2 National Championships with stock suspension, stock gearing and no engine mods. (Exhaust only) :P I'm just saying, don't spend $1000, only to race twice and quit or be so slow that you can't even get close to the stock stuffs limt. There's enough time between race dates to upgrade midseason if needed.
Someone is getting in way over their head with the stock suspension thing :o
How about this, KC, why don't you first run a decent aftermarket set-up, and then see if you go back???
You know as well as I you won't. And even if you CAN name someone who won a national championship on stock (which could be done if he/she weighed 130 lbs or less, maybe, since getting the correct springs is a large part of the aftermarket), I can name 100+ who use aftermarket suspension and would NEVER go back.
Don't mean to bust on ya so hard, but this stock suspension thing is getting out of hand.
The question as to what is REALLY needed depends on what you plan on getting out of the season. If you are happy running mid-pack AM, and being lapped in endurance races by the leaders, then bring your street tired, safety wired and sharkskinz GSXR, take all the schools and practice days you can, and have at it. But, you will eventually find race tires, ss brake lines and race pads, steering damper, and aftermarket suspension nescessary. The only question is will you find out the hard way???
Now that we've all sufficently scared the crap out of this guy. I want to remind him, CCS is just alot like a track day. The big difference is you get a finishing position with guys that have done it before. So don't be too hard on yourself, don't worry too much, keep a smooth line and a level head. You'll be fine and you'll have a blast.
QuoteDave, I know someone who won 2 National Championships with stock suspension, stock gearing and no engine mods. (Exhaust only)
Ok, I'll bit...
Who, what class, and where...
Geez Steve! Your makin me cry. :'((I,m trying to talk my brother into buying your 600.)
Baltobuell, Thats where I,m coming from.
Dave, Bart Shiflet, Middleweight Supersport and Heavyweight Supersport, (I think they were called something different back then) in 1996 or 97. Read, National Championship. Daytona. :)
The stock suspension is pretty good on a 2003 TZ250 but you still have to change out the springs unless youre a smurf.
Did someone forget to mention hardened engine case covers? I thought this was a requirement for GSXR's. You definetly need someone to help you at least adjust your stock suspension. You can only run slicks in certain classes but you need to buy race compound tires! These should last at least 3 or more weekends at what sounds like your beginning level.
QuoteDid someone forget to mention hardened engine case covers? I thought this was a requirement for GSXR's. You definetly need someone to help you at least adjust your stock suspension. You can only run slicks in certain classes but you need to buy race compound tires! These should last at least 3 or more weekends at what sounds like your beginning level.
PAUL!
What's this crap about you winning 10 LGP races next year! ;D
QuoteWhat's this crap about you winning 10 LGP races next year! ;D
Why? Is there more than 10 races for our region? ;D ;D ;D ;D
QuoteNow that we've all sufficently scared the crap out of this guy. I want to remind him, CCS is just alot like a track day. The big difference is you get a finishing position with guys that have done it before. So don't be too hard on yourself, don't worry too much, keep a smooth line and a level head. You'll be fine and you'll have a blast.
THANKS!!!! I really needed this. I think the problem here is that a lot of you guys have a lot of experience and you assume that when someone asks what's needed they are asking what's needed to win races. What Baltobuell pointed out is really all I'm expecting to get from my first season. Keep in mind I want to learn how to ride fast, then once my skillz increase I'm sure my need for aftermarket parts will increase.
For everyones information I am only 146lbs, the bike already has a steering dampner, and I planned on having someone help me adjust the suspension. Basically this year all I'm trying to do is work on my riding skills, and get a taste of what racing is like. Then if I decide it is for me, I will gladly fork out additional money for things I "NEED".
As for the case covers, is this true? See that is the type of thing I need to know. What is required so that I can go out there work on my ability to ride, not be a hazard to others on the track, and most importantly HAVE FUN!!!! I'm not looking to go pro, win regional or national level events, I'm looking to have fun. If my skills wind up to be enough that these wins become a realistic goal, then that is great. If they aren't guess what I'll enjoy riding just the same.
I appreciate everyone's comments I really do, I just was looking for what IS NEEDED! From there some time in the saddle will tell me what else seems wrong. As for tires, I'll have to buy a new set anyway after my first trackday so I'll probably go race tires then and try them. See how they feel.
I thought that a steering damper was required (mandatory)? Not so?
lbk, Sorry, I forgot about the engine case covers. A GSXR requires left and right side as per the rules. You can pick them up for around $200 for the set. (or buy them used) I would also move the steering damper to the must have list. Other than that I think I gave you a pretty good starting point. What Dave said about the brake pads is a good idea also. The stock pads cost about the same as race ones. Use them up and replace with the good stuff. With your weight, you'll need stiffer springs. Go to RaceTech.com. They have a questioner you can fill out and will give you a baseline set-up. I don't know if Lindeman or Traxxion offer this.
Steve crashed how many times? 2 or 3? KC crashed 0 times. Must be that kick @ss suspension I have :P
ZERO in races, or race days :P
Twice at trackdays...both times pushing the envelope for when I need it to pass you in races ;D
But, since crashing in testing is a bad thing...I guess we'll have to let Rossi, Edwards, Yates, etc... know the bad news about thiem all losing their rides.... :P
QuoteZERO in races, or race days :P
Twice at trackdays...both times pushing the envelope for when I need it to pass you in races ;D
But, since crashing in testing is a bad thing...I guess we'll have to let Rossi, Edwards, Yates, etc... know the bad news about thiem all losing their rides.... :P
Those guys must really suck! They have the best money can buy and they still fall on their heads. ;D
Thanks again everyone. The bike does already have a steering damper so I'm set there, and actually the pads have already been replaced with race pads on the front. I did that before I was ever going to take it to the track, after the really bad brake fade I had on my old bike.
The suspension, at this point I am at least going to ride the bike at a track day and see how it feels with it being adjusted. Then will look into options there. Tires will be replaced after that too, since they will be toast. The case covers I'll put on over the winter, they are needed. I found the CCS rule book and was looking through there they specifically mention those.
All the safety wiring I'll have to do over the winter, I already have water wetter, and that is probably what I'll start with.
KEWL! Dave - Let us know if you need a hand with anything... if I can tear John away from the 400cc YSR he's building in the living room!
It's gonna be SOO much fun having someone else to "play" with out there next year.
Trust me Kim I can't wait, now convince him to leave one of the bikes at home so I can go to Daytona. ;D
Regarding case covers......
I'm a dealer of Woodcraft products and will work a deal with you on case covers and whatever else you may want from Woodcraft.
Plain and simple...their products are reasonably priced and work very well.
Give me a holler when you are ready to do something. I will help you anyway I can in an effort to bring more people into the sport. :)
Kevin
QuoteRegarding case covers......
I'm a dealer of Woodcraft products and will work a deal with you on case covers and whatever else you may want from Woodcraft.
Plain and simple...their products are reasonably priced and work very well.
Give me a holler when you are ready to do something. I will help you anyway I can in an effort to bring more people into the sport. :)
Kevin
Kevin,
Hook it up hook it up! I need some of them fine woodcraft TZ250 cilp ons with spare bars. I'll take em whenever you can get them
If you are having a problem with brake fade "most" times it is fluid/line related. If the pads were worn out they transfer more heat into the fluid and then you end up with brake fluid boil. I would bleed the brake system at least twice a year and add good brake fluid not to open a discussion on it but Valvoline makes a good DOT 4 that is cheap and easily obtained. Do NOT use DOT 5 (it is not compatiable with DOT 4 components)but you can use DOT 5.1 (but I never have).
This would be my personal order of race prepping bike in order of importance to get on track
side covers (if required for bike IE Suz, Yam)
Water wetter
safety wire
Belly pan (if required IE 4 stroke)
Tires
SS Brake lines/new fluid
spare gearing for stock chain (if good chain/sprockets otherwise buy 520 now)
Bodywork
fairing bracket
Have stock supsension set up by suspension pro
steering dampner (or replace stock one)
spare foot pegs, clipons, windscreen(this is only really a needed spare if you go to FAST tracks like Daytona, TWS, RA)
clip ons
rearsets
respring/revalve suspension or purchase aftermarket
tire warmers
spare wheels
exhaust (full or bolt on depending on bike and $)
rejet or adjust FI
purchase 520 chain conversion/gearing
engine work
rain tires (spare just in case you need them and have not had to buy them yet)
Now the non-bike things I would recomend
folding chair
cooler w/ lots of space for drinks, munchies, etc
canopy
fan, heater
tools (specialty chain breaker, safety wire, steering stem, swingarm, other assorted not always needed items)
trailer
oops obvisouly if you can afford to go all the way down there are steps you would eliminate
Quote...Tires will be replaced after that too, since they will be toast.
Dude, you need to swap sides of the fence here. Your thought process should be "What can I do to increase my odds while at the track?"
Trying to save 20 bucks on tire swaps is not going to pay dividends. Buy some new rubber, run your track day on fresh goo, and then when your done, put the street slicks back on.
You will be better served on new 'anything' (incl. a good sport tire) than trying to wring out the last miles of a worn out ring while at the track.
What are you going to accomplish in the end using your current philosophy? Wear out an old and worn street tire of neglible value while likely riding harder and faster than you have on the street, all to save fresh new rubber for the ride home and storage?
Do it the other way. Please. You're more likely to enjoy the experience, bring the bike home in one piece, and save bucks in the long run.
Safe trips,
Dave
QuoteDude, you need to swap sides of the fence here. Your thought process should be "What can I do to increase my odds while at the track?"
Trying to save 20 bucks on tire swaps is not going to pay dividends. Buy some new rubber, run your track day on fresh goo, and then when your done, put the street slicks back on.
You will be better served on new 'anything' (incl. a good sport tire) than trying to wring out the last miles of a worn out ring while at the track.
What are you going to accomplish in the end using your current philosophy? Wear out an old and worn street tire of neglible value while likely riding harder and faster than you have on the street, all to save fresh new rubber for the ride home and storage?
Do it the other way. Please. You're more likely to enjoy the experience, bring the bike home in one piece, and save bucks in the long run.
Safe trips,
Dave
Take it easy man, I never said the tire was worn. Maybe I should've said it differently my idea of a tire being toast is when it is worn too much to start a track day. Which is typically 80% of the tread. They are Dunlop D207's which I've ridden on before and they do fine. After the track day I plan on replacing them.
I'm not a cheap skate I'm spending plent of money on this bike, but NO I'm not just going to spend endless money before my skills even neccesitate it. Jeez, did all you guys just start out riding like Hayden or what?
There is a learning curve involved I'm at the very beginning of that learning curve. I think there is plenty for me to learn before dropping thousands of dollars on every mod made before I've even ridden the bike on the track to see what I think it needs.
I was seeking advice those who have info have provided it. I appreciate everyones opinions, but man LAY OFF will ya. Christ one person makes a comment about bringing "My sharkskinned stock suspension bike" to a race. You come at me acting like I'm trying to save $20. Not the case by far! I just want to spend the money I have wisely on things that will truly help me, as I gain the knowledge needed to take advantage of.
You don't need carbon fiber brake pads, if you're not late braking into turns at warp speed. My point was just to get an idea of what it takes to GET STARTED! Sorry this gets to me a little since I am new, and it is just suprising to me that soo many people are so critical without even knowing the situation.
lbk... Don't even sweat it. Do the basic things that will get you past tech and go from there. I showed up to race school and my first race with a TZ250 and found out how inadequate I was for the bike. You have plenty of time to learn and buy the things you need. I think you have enough information now that you should be pretty prepared to start racing. Hope to see you out there next year. :)
Thanks Super_Duck, and everyone else I do appreciate it, and there is a lot of good information about what I need in here. Example the case covers.
Not to mention people offering price breaks on parts, I got my sharkskinz from someone on this board too, and they were a good deal.
I do appreciate it, and don't want to step on any veteran races toes, since I will likely seek their advice in the future.
Thanks again! One other question I was reading the rules, and they have you safety wire a lot of bolts. Do you just drill a hole through the corner of the bolt, or is there a better way to secure these things?
QuoteOne other question I was reading the rules, and they have you safety wire a lot of bolts. Do you just drill a hole through the corner of the bolt, or is there a better way to secure these things?
Drilling bolts is alot easier if you have a drill press. Otherwise.. get lots of drill bits for stainless steel and drill away. I believe Lockhart phillips makes jigs to make drilling easier. I normally drill the corner of a bolt but I've seen others drill straight across the head of the bolt. Either way will work. Thank God my new bike comes drilled :)
QuoteThank God my new bike comes drilled :)
Now all you need is a bike that comes with a rider. :P ;D
QuoteNow all you need is a bike that comes with a rider. :P ;D
LOL ;D ;D ;D that one actually made me laugh out loud.. Did I ever tell you that youre a bigger prick than I ever imagined? ;D ;D
QuoteLOL ;D ;D ;D that one actually made me laugh out loud.. Did I ever tell you that youre a bigger prick than I ever imagined? ;D ;D
And the crowd goes wild. AAAHHHHH!!!! Brian, I would expect the same from you. ;D
QuoteThanks again! One other question I was reading the rules, and they have you safety wire a lot of bolts. Do you just drill a hole through the corner of the bolt, or is there a better way to secure these things?
Ummm, WERA makes you safety wire lots of bolts...but I thought CCS the only requirements were the oil drain plug, the oil fill cap, and the oil filter???
Saftey wiring: check out this site http://www.lrrsracing.com/RuleBook/lockwire.htm
Also, I believe the WERA rulebook has some detailed info on it.
Safety wiring will become a religion once you get into it - when you are doing 140 down a front straight, you will feel confident that your brake calipers will not come off when you hit the front brakes because you know you torqued and wired the damn things yourself.
As Yogi Berra once said, "90% of going fast is is half mental."
Oh, and what would I spend my money on? Some of the best advice I got so far came from the race school instructor, who advised us to forget about pipes and all the "go fast" mods until we've spent as much money as we can tolerate on protecting the nut that holds the clipons - that'd be your own self.
The best set of leathers you can afford, the best helmet, boots and gloves - all these will give you the peace of mind you need to build your skills (see Yogi quote above).
yes the actual safety wire requirements from CCS are few but are where most problems seem to stem which are oil leaks/spills/fixture failures so the rules show that with hardened sidecovers and oil related safety wire.
The other things are mos often tampered with after going through tech so if you were going to require them then it would need to be checked prior to practice/race.
I do personally add the wheels and other brake/safety components to my list of items to safety wire but that is for my own piece of mine.
I do wonder what the thought behind requiring exhaust headers to be safetywired when a belly pan will contain an exhaust system even easier/better than oil hich is what they are designed for.
The steering dampner is not required either because there are many tracks that do not induce a wobble or bike that would ever need one even if it was MX track. Other thought behind the steering dampner is that there is no proof of function.
I think a bit of the rules come from a legally defensible position for the sanctioning body how can you require something, check it, and then allow someone to tamper with it (ie cut wire to install new wheels, brake pads, etc)? What is wired is normally not touched again in a weekend. I think it does come down to a level a self responsiblity we are grown-ups and to a certain degree we need to be able to responsible dor our own safety (and bolt tightening)
Of course this is my own opinion and should not be taken as any official position
oh yeah here is link to CCS rulebook (http://www.ccsracing.com/pdf/02FUSA_RoadRaceRules.pdf) the LRRS book is specfic to the NE region