Suggestion for new classes

[K3 Chris Onwiler]

Going back to the first page, my idea was that the "10" bikes have different color number plates and start as the last wave in a given race.  Under one set of "10" preparation rules, a "10" bike field could start behind the SS, SB, GP and GT grids in their displacement catagory, meaning four races per weekend for these old machines.  They would only be racing each other.  CCS could award trophies to the top three based on their overall performance for the four race weekend, which would encourage the 10 guys to hang around and enter all four races.  They would not be scored with the other classes in the sprint, so contingency wouldn't be affected.

My guess is that there would not be contingency available to 10 class racers.  Such is the disadvantage of racing an affordable bike.

[K3 Chris Onwiler]

Basically, IT allows old SS cars an engine rebuild, race shocks, headers and free flowing mufflers.  Also, you can ditch the stock wheels for same size race wheels.  These changes are allowed because by the time it is outdated, a car will have used up these components and the race parts are both better and cheaper than stock replacements.  For bikes, you could just maintain the SS rules for the 10 class.

The well financed racers stay in SS and buy a modern car to replace their outdated one.  The broke ones stay in IT because they already have the car and it's cheaper to just replace the aforementioned wear items.  The new guys buy the old SS cars because they are ultra-depreciated from what it cost to buy one showroom new and race prep it.  Then they saw off the stock exhaust, add a flowmaster and go have a blast on the cheap.

[Super Dave]

Going back to the first page, my idea was that the "10" bikes have different color number plates and start as the last wave in a given race.

So, they would then have to struggle with changing plates if they desired to enter other classes?

which would encourage the 10 guys to hang around and enter all four races.

Current racers have a lot of those opportunities already, but I wanna say that the average number of entries per rider has dropped from four per rider to closer to two.  Kevin would have more data on that. 

It would be easier to surmise that getting current racers to enter more races would be less costly than attracting new racers.  That's kind of a standard business practice. 

They would not be scored with the other classes in the sprint, so contingency wouldn't be affected.

Well, they would affect contingency.  If a contingency sponsor requires eight entries to a race, and the LWSS class, as an example, is fragmented into another class, L10LWSS, then there may not be enough entries in LWSS to pay those competitors thus reducing the opportunities and possible returns.

[Super Dave]

Basically, IT allows old SS cars an engine rebuild, race shocks, headers and free flowing mufflers.  Also, you can ditch the stock wheels for same size race wheels.  These changes are allowed because by the time it is outdated, a car will have used up these components and the race parts are both better and cheaper than stock replacements.  For bikes, you could just maintain the SS rules for the 10 class.

The well financed racers stay in SS and buy a modern car to replace their outdated one.  The broke ones stay in IT because they already have the car and it's cheaper to just replace the aforementioned wear items.  The new guys buy the old SS cars because they are ultra-depreciated from what it cost to buy one showroom new and race prep it.  Then they saw off the stock exhaust, add a flowmaster and go have a blast on the cheap.

So, I'm not seeing any kind of a ten year rule in there.  Looks like racers race based on the budget they have or can hopscotch on credit cards either way. 

Any person that wants to race can by a set of race bodywork for their older bike and go racing.  Hey, even a 1990 GSXR750 has 5.5 rear wheels and 3.5 fronts with cartridge Showa forks.  And that's legal in Thunderbike. 


Sorry to put you through the fire K3, but it just needs more justification. 

[K3 Chris Onwiler]

Oh, I forgot to mention that a car is only Showroom Stock legal for so many years from new and that an Improved Touring car can't be newer that the most recently expired Showroom Stock car.  IT was created so that old SS cars weren't merely orphaned junk.  Sorta like my 10 proposal.

Hey, I have nothing to win here.  I just made a suggestion.  In the end, it doesn't matter what any of us think.  If CCS sees it as a good thing, they will adopt it.  If not, no big deal.  At least the subject got people thinking and talking about ways to create an entry level opportunity.

[Farmboy]

Ok.

Exhibit A (utilized completely without permission):

Alex Macevicius (AKA Mopar) 2008 Midwest Amateur Results:

BHF Amateur GTU - Champion
BHF MW SS - 2nd
Midwest region GTU - 3rd
MIdwest region MW SS - 6th
Midwest region MW SB - 6th

... On a Honda 600 F4i (what year did they make those? How much can you buy one for?), and Alex didn't even make every event.

Exhibit B (again, sin permiso todamente):

Jon Gu 2008 (AKA "WTF is he doing now?") Midwest Amateur results:

BHF- Amateur Ltwt SB (Champion), Ltwt GP (Champion), GTL (2nd), GTU (4th), MW SB(3rd)
Midwest region - Ltwt SB(2nd), Ltwt GP(3rd), GTL(2nd), GTU(4th), MW SB(2nd), MW SS(4th), MW GP(5th)

... On an oooold R6 (True, he bought a VERY nice R6 and brought it to RA, but we all know how that turned out), and THE most Craptastic POS SV that we've (again) all had the extreme displeasure of ever seeing. I mean, come on, that thing was more worn out than Lindsay Lohan after a free weekend at the American Liquor Distributors / Skankalicious Spectacle Convention. It was Positively Painful to gaze upon. He actually told me that he had previously fried the motor by racing a full sprint with no coolant in the damn thing - and he raced it like that for the whole damn year! He'd stuff us in the tight corners on the first lap just so we could flip him off when we passed him back like he was standing still after the track opened up, and then, we could all laugh about it later. Moreover, if he had spent any money or time on maintenance and set-up, at all, his results would have been even better, scratch that, waaay better.

So there are 2 riders that I can think of who did very well on less-than-top shelf equipment, hell, I'd go as far as saying, ENTRY LEVEL bikes.

Now true, Gu raced for a couple of years prior, but he started and finished with both of those (did I mention completely and utterly filthy, crappily suspended, ill maintained, nasty, funky, ugly, fugly) motorcycles. Alex, I'm not sure, I know he rode track days prior, but then, these are exactly the type of potential racers we're talking about; guys who do well at track days and decide they want to test the waters. They both had what would be considered significantly less competitive machinery (or complete pieces of shit), but they raced on it anyway and were more than competitive. Would anyone be terribly disappointed with those results? Hell, we're not even talking all Lightweight, we're talking Middleweight, which I'm pretty sure is the most competitive class - Right?

So, I'm sorry, but I just don't see the need for a special olympics class-within-a-class so that more people can feel good about themselves. There are more than enough current choices in CCS for a decent rider to have an instructive, satisfying, and at least relatively successful entry-level experience. And, if they aren't so decent, well, they'll either quit or stick with it and try to do better, which is the same exact thing that plenty of good riders do as well, for various reasons.

Put it this way. If this class you propose had existed when I started, I wouldn't have raced in it. This is what the Amateur level is for, entry riders. I'd have looked at these classes as a handicap class, which is what they are, and I'd prefer to do as well, or better than, other riders while riding what is perceived to be a less competitive bike. I really enjoyed doing trackdays on the old M, when guys used to laugh at my bike, until we'd ridden on the track together, and then they weren't so giggly. There'd be no way in hell I'd want to ride a handicapped class as this is the antithesis of what racing is. And seriously, someone tell me if I need to explain my version of what racing is. I'm fairly confident that the vast majority of riders would feel the same way (also, I think these classes  would be parasitic, as Dave said).

So sorry, I think CCS has "entry level" covered. Did anyone here ever see the movie "Idiocracy"? Our society is already well down the road of homogenizing everything down to the least common denominator, and forget about Darwinism. The thing which most appeals to me about racing is the fact that it's so pure. If I succeed, it's all me. If I fail, me again. The bike is a part of it, but everything I do with regard to preparation and implementation of the equipment is part of my effort, so really it all just comes down to me again. And I guess that personally, I feel the Amateur class is challenging enough to be part of the learning curve, but not too challenging. In other words, appropriate. I also guess that some might not find it so, but I don't think this type of class is the answer. Track days provide more than enough opportunity for true entry level experience. The next step is amateur level club racing, and I think CCS already provides this opportunity quite well.

Alright, I've fallen off my horse, and now I can't get up because the old nag died and keeled over right on top of me. I wish I could kick her a bit...   

[roadracer162]

I applaud you Chris for putting yourself out there with an idea that makes sense. The idea goes along with the CCS statement that there is a place for everyone to race. I know you tell me that my 1991 FZR600 is a middleweight but putting that bike in the middle of the expert middleweight field could be suicide, instead the "10" year class makes much more sense when the idea of racing is competition.

We are quick to bash, but seldom come up with ideas of solutions. In my mind track days have it's place. Track days do compete with the racing organizations. Just look at  some of the comments or advice being given, "practice your craft on a few more track-days before racing". Then we wonder why the grids are getting smaller. They are getting smaller because of the mentality that if you are new you shouldn't be out there racing.

I support the idea of the "10" year class. I also support the idea of the Pirelli sponsored class. It is inviting to me to run in that class next year, I hope it takes off. We complain about not having enough contingency, awards or return. But what do we do to help?

Chris, thanks for the ideas maybe something will come of this.

Personally, I like watching the old bikes run. The project I am currently involved with is trying to revive the Vintage class in Florida. I have committed to compete in the Vintage class with it's limited format of 3 race weekends and probable 3 weight classes and have a final "William's Cup" at the end of the season. Yeah it isn't the vintage rules of ARHMA or WERA but it is our own. Hopefully we will include more of the bikes that have been just sitting in garages and hopefully inspire some others to build new/old bikes.

Mark

[Farmboy]

Alright, seriously, I'm not bashing here. I can see possible merits of the suggestion, but a couple of points come to mind.

First, isn't a 91' FZR 600 already legal in Thunderbike?

Second, if it's not safe to grid up in the middle of an expert race, where do you grid up? At the end of the experts, but before the amateurs? Because theree are some damn fast amateurs out there, too. Or do you grid after the amateurs, in which case, you both a.) end up in  the tailend/middle of the am field (which is a place I'd rather not be, especilally in the beginning of the race) or b.) end up getting lapped by the regular experts while you're among the ams as well? So now what? Another whole series of stand-alone classes? One stand alone class in addition to Thunderbike?  I doubt that anyone would be happy with just one more class to race in. Or maybe, in addition to running a "10" class, you run it a class down, i.e., a "10" middleweight runs in the lightweight catagory; that seems like a good proposal. (Doesn't it? Maybe I'm not a total dick after all. But then again..) As Dave said, a proposal as it would be stated in the rule book covering all the possibilities would be helpful, but it would seem that Kevin already spoke his mind, so this is all moot anyway. And again, I think CCS does what they do very well; unfortunately, they can't make everyone happy.

Smite me all you want, K3 literally invited a flaming. Writing/debating style aside, I disagree with the suggestion as it stands, so I'm asking questions. ( And honestly, I was seriously annoyed by the whole trackday rider to racer thread. It struck me as being very negative about a sport I love, and which I see as having far more positive attributes than negative ones. It would have been more appropriate to respond to THAT thread, but I'm human, I err.) Perhaps some of my posts are abrasive, but they are generally meant to be tongue in cheek in nature anyway. Such is the nature of a public forum , especially when a writer refuses to use emoticons to lend context. Whatever. If we're going to be so sensitive of criticism, maybe we shouldn't stick our necks out. Having said that, Rick's a good guy; I'd be more than happy to join his club, so have at it. This is all just a way of passing time until we can all get back out and do the thing we truly love to do anyway.

[NOBODY]

I dont know if anyone has looked at ebay or any of the BBS sites, but old bikes aren't cheap.  Most working mid to late 90's sportbikes are in the range of $1500-$3000.  Most of those are street-bikes anyway.  I personally feel that anyone who isn't racing has more or less given up.  If I want to make a race weekend, I just work harder.  Those marquis local guys that are super fast and make all the weekends,  they are probably equally talented and hard working at their job.  Racing, I guess, is kind of like adopting.  My wife and I wanted to adopt a child 3 years ago.  We learned that it would cost about 20k.  We no longer want to adopt.

[roadracer162]

Some very good points in response and well taken in consideration.

Funny thing is I still have my '91 FZR600. When i bought it I did so for a cheap racer. $1500 got me into a bike where the SV would have been $4000 at the time. Another $4000 later I had a machine that did yield me a Couple Amateur Championships in LW F40 and Thunderbike. Two years later I won my first Expert Championship-Regional of course. I did accomplish this agasint some very competent machinery including an SV that reportedly cost some $50K to develop. I think the rider was the biggest part of the equation.

In the following couple years I bought and developed a Ducati 800 just to keep a points lead in the Ultralight class that I was leading which the total cost of build thus far has been $10K.

I believe the whole idea of the "10" year bike is to keep and/or allow folks that wouldn't normally have raced a chance at entry level racing. I race the lightweight stuff and not the middleweight or bigger because I believe it best fits me. At 48 years old my reflexes aren't as good as when i was much younger and I believe the smaller stuff allows me more time to react and thus be safer.

This is club racing and I would like to see it stay around and even grow to what there was in the past. I bring others to racing and enjoy the competition it brings. Recently my older brother has started racing with CCS along with my two son and I.

Can we find a way to make some of these ideas work? My thought of how Chris' first post is if it can survive every negative response, then just maybe it is a good idea.

As far as racing my FZR600 I have done just that in GTU as an Amateur. Grid in the 21st spot and finished in 9th. As far as gridding up today it seems as though the general thought was that the most dangerous part of a race is the start where all the bikes are pretty close together. Putting the "10" class bike at the back of the grid would allow the faster bikes to start up front. I don't believe it is likely that a ten year old bike will outdrag a newer bike-not saying it can't happen.

There is an F2 down here in Florida that is for sale for $5000 fully race prepped and it is well prepared. So my point is there are still older race bikes out there including the SV stuff that many could buy. There are a couple 99 R6 recently on the Jennings forum for not much money at all. Build it! but will they come?

Mark

[K3 Chris Onwiler]

I really don't get the hostility.  Let's say the concept actually happened.  If some old bikes are gridding up back there behind you, if they aren't stealing your points or contingency money, if the schedule isn't altered, if CCS is making a few extra bucks on entry fees and if some new people come out to race, who's baby is actually being raped?
I mean, honestly.  Yes, it's fun to preach and beat your chest.  Yes, if that's what you're into, you can argue until the other person gets tired of you and gives up.  Thing is, what's the fight about?
Who cares if someone could build a $100K SRAD?  Who cares if Melvin Snodgrass won Unlimited GP at the ROC on a 99 R1 shod with Conti Tourmasters and running on three cylinders?  Who cares about ANY of the arguments presented?  Bottom line is, if the classes happened, who would get hurt?  If it meant ten extra entries per event, just ten, what would that do to help CCS survive over the course of a season nationwide?  Or does that matter?

[backMARKr]

. Having said that, Rick's a good guy; I'd be more than happy to join his club, so have at it.

Jim,

To achieve "Rick Weaver Professional Shit Disturber" status...you must achieve shitdisturbingness within no more than 2 lines of text. At this point, you are just a glorified comer....
got to get those tomes you are writing in check.





btw....congrats on the championship kudos in RRW.....got my copy yesterday.


FISH ON!