Suggestion for new classes

[K3 Chris Onwiler]

Ten years ago, Lightweight was an entry level class, at least at the amateur level.  There aren't any entry level classes now.  No offense but if you're racing something that says Ducati on the tank, you haven't got a clue what entry level means.  (BTW, entry level guys don't have backup bikes, either.)

[Super Dave]

Ten years ago, Lightweight was an entry level class, at least at the amateur level.  There aren't any entry level classes now.  No offense but if you're racing something that says Ducati on the tank, you haven't got a clue what entry level means.  (BTW, entry level guys don't have backup bikes, either.)

Well, take it back further, you'll see that it changes period by period.  When I started racing, there were a lot of RZ around from the RZ Cup races, and the EX500 came out.  People would build both bikes.  RZ's pretty much would become TZ's.  Then the FZR400 came out.  And there were all kinds of parts that were available in addition to some generous Yamaha contingency.  You could drop a lot of money on an FZR400.  650 Hawks came out, and they became popular with some Kool-Aid drinkers...LOL!...and ram air boxes were built, reverse cylinder heads with custom exhaust, etc...How about the early 1200cc Buells of the early 90's? 

So, back to the core thing that you're saying in this last post, K3, entry level opportunity...

Was that your intention?  I guess I originally looked at it as this being an opportunity for everyone.  That there would be another classification within a class where "old" bikes would have a handicaped finished based upon some kind of a structure of time.  That can be hard as would you like it to be a fixed period of time (easiest), or what?

If you'd like to present a proposal to the CCS community and CCS, it really needs to be spelled out in a similar fashion as it is stated in the rule book. 

[Farmboy]

Ten years ago, Lightweight was an entry level class, at least at the amateur level.  There aren't any entry level classes now.  No offense but if you're racing something that says Ducati on the tank, you haven't got a clue what entry level means.  (BTW, entry level guys don't have backup bikes, either.)

A 2-valve Ducati is as entry level as it gets when 18 year old kids can go buy a 180 HP bike off the showroom floor. I was a Ducati enthusiast before I ever did a track day, so, when it came time to go to the track, I built the '96 Monster out of a (then) 8 year old, 7000 mile streetbike which I purchased for (I think) 4200.00.  I stripped everything off I could, threw on an exhaust, clip-ons, upgraded masters, and rearsets, and headed up to Gratttan. The motor was bone-stock, made maybe 72 at the wheel. That was 5 years ago, and I've had the bike ever since, so of course, there have been upgrades and modifications. This is natural, especially considering my tendency to refuse to participate, whenever possible, in our disposable, engineered-obsolescence prone society.  Anyway, riding that bike, in that tune, for a year taught me at least 60% of what I know (which, admittedly, isn't much). Hell, guys start out on the aforementioned 1000s all the time.

The fact that I have multiple bikes stems from the fact that, also aforementioned, I'm an enthusiast. Oh, but they're Ducatis, you say. So what? Double income, no kids, etc. And, they're the cheapest Ducatis there are. Dude, I'm no high roller; I'm a plumber. I work my ass off, I like the bikes, I don't sell them when they're paid off unless I want to. Am I supposed to feel bad about this? I haven't ridden on the street in 2 years; instead, I'm at the track whenever I can make it, so why not dedicate more bikes to the hobby? Besides all that shit, go back and look at suggestion #3. I'll commit as much as I am able to attain my goals; If this is more than you are able to commit, then consider #4. Believe me, it wasn't easy running 2 bikes; I'm paying my Discover down as we speak. If your financial situation differs, that is not my problem.

For the record, in a way, I've always regretted my predilection for Ducks. They are more expensive (although not nearly as much as everyone thinks), SVs do the job very well, and I can go just as fast on an SV as I do on my bikes (which, admittedly, is not terribly very). However, SVs don't kindle a lot of passion in me, so there it is. The pragmatic Farmboy loses, while the wild-at-heart, devil-may-care, intensely enthusiastic (yet strangely and discordantly insouciant) Farmboy reigns victorious.

Entry level is only as basic or complex as a rider makes it. There is a wide spectrum of implementation. I choose to do as much as I am able to facilitate whatever success I can realize, and it would be the same level whether I was racing a 10 year-old bike, or a 70 Hp bike, or a scooter.

No offense, but sometimes I think you just don't have a clue.

Man, this still-towering old nag is reeeally teetering.

[backMARKr]

No offense, but sometimes I think you just don't have a clue.

....but BOY can he talk!!!    ( and for me to say that about ANYBODY is sayin' A LOT!)

that was FN funny Jim!

[K3 Chris Onwiler]

Really, I'm not up for a pissing contest.  Given my non-existant budget, sheer physical size and general lack of talent, the box of trophys in my attic is enough for me.  You might be surprised if you dug through that box.  I stopped racing when I'd accomplished as much as I felt I could.  At this point in my riding career, I estimate that unlimited money would only be worth 1-2 seconds per lap improvement, which still wouldn't make me an Expert winner.  As a white plate racer, I will always be up against guys who are better at it than I am.  Unless CCS comes up with a "K3 wins" rule, I won't be earning any more first place trophys.

I have a clue.  You seemingly can't read.  I think that the words "low cost" and "entry level" have been in about every post I've made in this thread.  I think I may also have mentioned at least once or twice that I personally have no bike and no intention to race the classes I proposed.  (That sorta shoots down the argument that I'm trying to rewrite the rules to my own benefit.  For that matter, I have no plans to race in 2010 or beyond and won't unless some pals ask me to do an enduro with them.)  I'm almost sure that I said at least once or twice that the old bikes would be a race within a race, IE, they would only race each other.

Perhaps I'm misguided to think that people might give racing a shot if they could buy into an old bike for a couple grand and have a place to race it competitively.  It worked for me.  I used to joke that I'd never raced a bike from the current decade.  In my day, you could do that, do it cheap and still have a shot.  I don't see that opportunity now and made a suggestion as to how it might be accomplished.  This fall, a friend of mine was offering his 99 R6 with pipe, jet kit, valved forks, race shock, clipons, rearsets and Hotbodies for $1500.  He got no takers.  Such a bike would be a winner in the 6-10 class I proposed.  Entry level and affordable?  Well, that fits my description.

It's far easier to be a naysayer than to be an idea man.  Go ahead and maintain the status quo.  Obviously, it's really working.  I remember being thrilled that I'd cracked the top ten for the first time.  There were over 20 amateur bikes in that race, which was held at Gateway, traditionally a track with a low turnout.  Been in any 20+ bike amateur lightweight grids lately?  Maybe if racing were more affordable...

[Farmboy]

Flame away!

No pissing contest here; just obliging your request.

What, exactly, is stopping anyone from doing just what you suggest, that is, buying a bike on the cheap and racing competitively? Anyone can do it now. Perhaps we should define "competitively". Does it mean winning every race hands down and going away? Or does it mean improving one's skills while having a good time dicing it out with others of similar skillsets and racing to the best of one's abilities? A bit of both? Or does it mean that we have to create classes wherein those who have limited financial resources can win their own box of trophies? Hmmm?

Also, do you understand relativity? Of course the lightweight class (for example) is more expensive than it was 10 years ago. EVERYTHING is more expensive than 10 years ago. Also, 10 years ago, I'd bet that noone could believe that you'd have to run 9's,10's, and 11's @ BHF to even have a shot at winning a middleweight race. Hell, last year you'd have to run that fast to win an AM race!  However, this is the nature of things.  Nowadays, you don't even have a shot at a pro ride unless you start riding before you can walk, and it sure doesn't hurt if your parents can spend thousands to foster your talent, so how in the world can you not expect club racing to become that much more (relatively) expensive and (relatively) competitive?

Good for you that you're an idea man. Kudos, congrats, attaboy. I just don't happen to agree that this particular idea would magically revitalize the club racing scene. As stated previously, these classes already exist in AHRMA, they'd go the same route as the current classes, etc, etc, etc. But then, what does it matter what I think? Present your idea like Dave suggested, and maybe you'll save us all. Or, put together a CB 160 spec series like he also suggested. But don't get your panties in a bunch just because someone disagrees with you, especially when you extend the very invitation to do so.

[George_Linhart]

Dude, I'm no high roller; I'm a plumber. I work my ass off, I like the bikes, I don't sell them when they're paid off unless I want to. Am I supposed to feel bad about this? I

Hey Jim - you know my favorite expression?  Racing a Ducati is God's way of letting you know that you have too much money.

Seriously, you are right on point with the SV thing.  Many, many times I have wished that I didn't have this sick and un-natural attraction to the clacking dry clutch and booming exhaust note of my Ducati.  SV parts are cheap and easy to find.  There are lots of them at the track if you need to borrow spares.  Set-up tricks are well known and documented.  You can make one very light...  Yet I keep investing time and money into my 2005 1000SS just because I like it.  Maybe, just maybe, if I keep upgrading the bike every winter and can get bit more racing in over the next few years I can have both the bike and my riding sorted in time to be legal for the proposed +10 class.

While I am thinking about it, since Ed Key's bikes are all first gen SV's, couldn't he find a 1999 SV frame and be legal for the class?  That sure is what I would call an entry level bike!

My bike is going into the shop to get the +2mm intake valves and head work done this winter.  We are also going to re-spring the bike and do some suspension work - as I have started riding faster I am now bottoming the forks at every track.  There are probably a handful of other upgrades we will make as well.  I am looking forward to racing you when you are wearing white plates and starting from the same wave.

George

[K3 Chris Onwiler]

See my earlier comments on SCCA Club Ford and Hobby Stock racing.  Other forms of racing have classes that allow for a cheap buy-in.  I think CSS would benefit from such a setup as well.  I define competitive as having a chance to win.  If a winning machine costs ten grand to build, how many first time racers are going to step up to that level of expense just to see how they'd do?  Go ahead and tell a potential racer about the glory of racing for last place and see if he steps up with his heart and checkbook.  See, you don't have to sell me.  I've raced for last place and had a ball doing it.  You have to sell the potential racer so he doesn't just head for trackdays instead.  If you don't care about having a chance to win, can't you have just as much fun dicing at a trackday?  Isn't racing about at least trying to win or working your way up to where you can?

Lightweight is a screwed up mess these days.  There are some crazy machines allowed in.  They are both very fast and very expensive. Smaller, less expensive bikes like the SV or Kawasaki need a ton of work to be competitive against them.   Short of starting over, I don't see how that could be fixed.  Worse, so many have so much invested in Lightweight that you'd wind up screwing them all if you tried to reign in the current rule structure. This is why I proposed old bike classes where the machines would have a low buy-in.

Since I don't race any more, I'm really not motivated to try and change the rulebook myself.  As a qualified observer, I made a suggestion.  I'd expect that if the suggestion had merit, someone might run with it.

It's fine that you disagree.  The problem is that you disagree by questioning my motives and implying that I'm trying to create a class to fit my own needs, rather than something that might help participation.  You chose make it personal, rather than presenting logical reasons why a less expensive form of racing would be a bad thing.  As I said last post, I'm not looking to engage in a pissing contest.  Go ahead and explain why a class where a $1500 to $2500 motorcycle that had a shot of winning in an amateur class would hurt racing rather than help it.  Leave out the personal attacks and just answer that one question.

[Super Dave]

Lightweight is a screwed up mess these days.  There are some crazy machines allowed in.

I'll bite.

What are the crazy machines?  If we're getting into Superbike and GP rules, well, really, all bets are off.  Thunderbike?  It's lightweight based but certainly getting away from reasonable.  Still fun.

LWSS is a class for most of the things you're talking about.  Even a '99 SV is pretty darn competitive yet in that class.  I don't know of many that are $1500 let alone $2500. 

[Farmboy]

If you do hear of a nice SV for 2500.00, let me know. I'll  buy that pile, disguise myself as an amateur, enter a SS race, and win.

It can be done under the current class structure. I rode Roy Hefner's SS-legal SV last year; it was nothing special, just a nicely sorted bike on which I (or any decent rider) potentially could have won (and definitely podiumed) any lightweight race. So, again, I ask, do we just need more classes that poorer, less skilled riders can win a plaque in?? And again, I posit that for someone to win, someone else has to lose. Are you telling me that the current crop of trackday riders are a bunch of spoiled, entitled, impoverished ragamuffins who won't try racing unless they're guaranteed a trophy? Tell you what: put together a series for these poor souls, and I'll donate my box of trophies for redistribution. That should help defray the costs even further.

Qualified observers should realize that it's the rider, not the bike. Oh, and that maybe the economy has something to do with grid size. Last I heard, attendance was was down at track days, too.

It's not exactly personal. However, I admit that I suck at disguising my annoyance at the idea that we have to dumb down, or simplify, the classes to entice new riders. Again, I think it's really simple. If you have a bike already, pick the classes it's legal for and go race. If it's only legal for a class or two, so be it. If you want to race more classes, or you don't have a bike, pick the classes you want to race, and equip yourself accordingly.  Spend as much or as little as you want, but no matter what, it's still going to be expensive, and oh, I'm sorry, but there's no guarantees for success. That's racing (and life, too.)

[dylanfan53]

Pshaw.  (I always wondered what that meant)  There's a nice 1999 on fleabay right now with a Buy it Now at $1800 that didn't sell for that amount the first time it was listed.  $2,000 is plenty for that vintage and type of bike and with a little work would be just fine for the type of class suggested.  

As for LWSS being the appropriate place for it, that's only one class and it wouldn't be competitive against SV's that have 5X (10x?) that amount invested.  Relative to an $1800 downpayment, those machines, as admirable as they are, qualify as a "crazy" investment to a beginner.

I suppose we could all just "deal with it", "realize it", "accept it", as someone so creatively proposed.  We wouldn't want to try anything new, would we?

[K3 Chris Onwiler]

Go ahead and explain why a class where a $1500 to $2500 motorcycle that had a shot of winning in an amateur class would hurt racing rather than help it.  Leave out the personal attacks and just answer that one question.