Suggestion for new classes

Started by K3 Chris Onwiler, November 29, 2009, 11:26:13 AM

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Super Dave

Quote from: backMARKr on December 02, 2009, 04:05:14 PM
Actually, IF they are still doing BOT ( Battle of Twins) you can run the SV, Buell etc.....
And they have singles classes, two stroke classes, and a class that puts them all together with triples too.  Really, there are classes for most all new bikes except for four cylinder bikes.
Super Dave

K3 Chris Onwiler

Just wanted to suggest a class where inexpensive, otherwise obsolete bikes could provide entry level competition and beef up CCS grids.  Don't care about AHRMA.  Don't personally own an old bike to enter in an old bike class.  Don't have a personal agenda...  :banghead:
The frame was snapped, the #3 rod was dangling from a hole in the cases, and what was left had been consumed by fire.  I said, "Hey, we've got all night!"
Read HIGHSIDE! @ http://www.chrisonwiler.com

Super Dave

Quote from: K3 Chris Onwiler on December 02, 2009, 07:28:22 PM
Just wanted to suggest a class where inexpensive, otherwise obsolete bikes could provide entry level competition and beef up CCS grids.  Don't care about AHRMA.  Don't personally own an old bike to enter in an old bike class.  Don't have a personal agenda...  :banghead:
I think it's an idea with some merit for a class within a class.  But obsolete doesn't always lead to inexpensive.  As an example, see AHRMA. 
Super Dave

gpz11

Yeah, show me any racing that's inexpensive.

Inexpensive racing is a oxymoron.

:biggrin:

2old2fat2slow

Quote from: gpz11 on December 02, 2009, 09:06:04 PM
Yeah, show me any racing that's inexpensive.

Inexpensive racing is a oxymoron.

:biggrin:
Not true!! I raced my dog to the mailbox today. Didn't cost me a dime. He won. I got 2nd. 
Thanks to:Lithium Motorsports, Vondari Racing, Continental Tires of North America, Absolute Cycle, RaceConti,Next Level Motorsports, Mize Mobile, Vortex, Woodcraft

K3 Chris Onwiler

I'd mentioned in my original post that tires, travel and entry fees are a reality of racing.  My idea was that a new racer could buy an old Srad, R6, CBR F or the like, already race prepped with some spares for a couple grand instead of dropping 10-15K to buy and prep a new machine.  Likewise, an older racer who has retired rather than update might still have one in his garage. Given a venue to run older, less expensive machines, these people might race instead of doing trackdays.  I've no doubt that a motivated individual could build a completely HRC kitted Honda or Full Yosh Gixxer that was ten years old but seriously, would there be any joy or real point in spending new bike money to prep such an old machine?  (Pay no mind to the rumor that I just bought the 2000 World Superbike title-winning machine on EBay...)
The frame was snapped, the #3 rod was dangling from a hole in the cases, and what was left had been consumed by fire.  I said, "Hey, we've got all night!"
Read HIGHSIDE! @ http://www.chrisonwiler.com

roadracer162

Quote from: TrophyGal on December 02, 2009, 05:29:44 PM
Florida still runs Vintage classes, and SouthWest has 2 events at Firebird which have Vintage classes.
Florida Region cancelled the vintage classes in 2009. We the riders have taken a poll, taken names and offered a committment of participation for the coming year. The vintage package have changed a little to accomodate more machines, run a limited schedule and possibly offer a "Williams Cup" at the end.


Quote from: Super Dave on December 02, 2009, 07:33:33 PM
I think it's an idea with some merit for a class within a class.  But obsolete doesn't always lead to inexpensive.


But you gotta admit it can be done and have a reasonbly competitive platform for any beginner racer. My FZR600 was first bought for $1500 and my total build is $5500. It would have been much easier and cheaper purchasing a bike such as the current F2 for sale for $5000. My cost for running the FZR600 was $500 for the weekend in the Florida Region schedule whcihc includes Saturday all day practice, and two races on Sunday.

Quote from: K3 Chris Onwiler on December 02, 2009, 10:31:51 PM
I'd mentioned in my original post that tires, travel and entry fees are a reality of racing.  My idea was that a new racer could buy an old Srad, R6, CBR F or the like, already race prepped with some spares for a couple grand instead of dropping 10-15K to buy and prep a new machine.  Likewise, an older racer who has retired rather than update might still have one in his garage. Given a venue to run older, less expensive machines, these people might race instead of doing trackdays.  I've no doubt that a motivated individual could build a completely HRC kitted Honda or Full Yosh Gixxer that was ten years old but seriously, would there be any joy or real point in spending new bike money to prep such an old machine?  (Pay no mind to the rumor that I just bought the 2000 World Superbike title-winning machine on EBay...)

I do believe this idea has merit and it would provide something not so costly for the new rider to try his hand. It would beat the other scenario of that same new rider using his brand new or two year old street ride to try racing. For $1500 that rider can try his hand at racing without fear of destroying his $8000 machine.

Then there were the sportsman classes now Thunderbike and F40. This is where I have raced my FZR600. I have also found that my Ultralight legal Ducati 800 is just as quick as my FZR600 with me on both of them.

As an entry level bike the FZR400 is a great platform. $700 for initial purchase and set-up, 60hp, 130 laps on a set of Bridgestone slicks, and loads of fun to ride.

Mark
Mark Tenn
CCS Ex #22
Mark Tenn Motorsports, Michelin tire guy in Florida.

xseal

If what you're getting at is competitive racing, why not simply have a dyno and a combined rider/bike power to weight ratio.  Wouldn't matter what year the bike was, just make the power/weight ratios equal.  Given equal tires and close suspension, ... I think that would make for some close racing. Perhaps you'd have modern 600s racing against old 900s or 750s, but I think the point is you could get a cheap old bike and compete.


K3 Chris Onwiler

xseal, in a perfect world, your plan is the answer.  In reality, it requires a chassis dyno, an accurate set of scales and operators trained to use these devices properly.  Now all that must be available at every race, which requires time and money.  Even AMA, with the cooperation, equipment and manpower of series sponsor Dynojet, has been unable to consistantly make this happen.  The AMA doesn't have to be in as many places, some on the same dates, as CCS does.  So your idea gets an A+ for intelligence but a D- for logistics.  Sad, because as a fat guy, I like the combined bike-rider power to weight ratio idea a lot!  Watch me race ultraminiscule flyweight on a nitrous Busa!
The frame was snapped, the #3 rod was dangling from a hole in the cases, and what was left had been consumed by fire.  I said, "Hey, we've got all night!"
Read HIGHSIDE! @ http://www.chrisonwiler.com

Ducmarc

like Angele whatever her last name is now in NHRA , they changed from weight of bike to weight of bike and rider.  still drop a few classes add some laps up the entry slightly use the extra time to dyno the top three and pay the dyno crew a few bucks    i don't think the goals we want are really obtainable  though  1 make racing cheaper and 2 make larger grids but 2 makes 1 more improbable  i guess one of my thoughts is do we really want to stay on a sprint format or pay slighty more and go to longer races   to me it seems you have 2 or three guys in each food group swaping positons in every race so what's the difference if you race 4 6 lap races or 2 12 races the the outcome will be the same. me and markie raced hard in thunderbike this year. it was generally the same 3 guys on the podium  kevin mark and chris all year usually in that order and that would be the order in every light weight class if our bike was legal .  you can look at your grid spot and tell where you are going to be. there's no mystery just look at practice lap times and i knew what wood we were getting unless someone screws up  and as far as old 600's their all in the back of F40     how about  classic cup race with only out of production bikes or pick a bike that is not being made and there's a ton of like carbuated sv's or an  all caburated class, that wipes out all the last 4 or 5 years and makes the748 haters happy   this whole topic is hopeless

Super Dave

Quote from: Ducmarc on December 03, 2009, 09:13:50 PMthis whole topic is hopeless
LOL!  Now that's a statement to put in a signature...
Super Dave

Farmboy

#35
First, some clarification on the 1000 DS motor:

In stock form, off the showroom floor, a strong DS will make around 80+/- RWHP, depending on the model (the airbox accounts for most variance). I'm hoping that the new S2R I just bought will make 85 in full SS trim. My current bike, an S2R in mild SB trim, makes 95 on the dyno; I could get another 10-15 HP relatively easily, but I'm not planning on it anytime soon in the interest of motor longevity AND developing MY skills more. Now, for comparison, Kevin VanEngen's SV made 85 HP, Hernan Martinez's SV made 92 (both weighed 20+ lbs. less), and several of the Buells on the grid made 90+ HP as well. How is this not equitable? (And how is that considered  MiddleWeight power??) It sure seemed like we were all on more or less equal footing out there. (Well, I'll admit that my bike was kind of a class overdog at Daytona..)

Now, back on topic: Racing is expensive. Doesn't matter what kind. Bicycle, tricycle, automotive, boat, motorcycle, go-kart, mailbox sprints, whatever. There will always be an initial outlay, operational expense, maintanence costs, etc, and then, you go to the track, get your ass handed to you, and go about spending even more money in an effort to be more competitive. Well, a lot of people do. So, as stated previously, even if classes like this were created, they'll just end up like every other class:

For example, I do have a bike that would be eligible for the class you propose; my current "B" bike, which is a '96 Monster 900 in Superbike trim which makes maybe 85 HP at the rear wheel (and which was also more than competitive in the LtWt Am classes before I sorted out the new bike.) And guess what? Over the period of time that I've owned the bike, I've easily spent more on it than I have on the S2R, which I bought brand new. Of course, one wouldn't have to go this route, but already, if this class was created, relatively ultra-competitive bikes  already exist which will fit, and therefore, you're already back at Square One.

So, now what? Spec classes? Like the Ninja 250 classes? Maybe, but now, you're looking at a narrow-focus bike which won't be competitive in other classes, thereby essentially limiting the races you'll run, thereby making THAT bike a relatively expensive proposition when factoring in the dollar-to-race ratio.

I'd suggest this:
1. Deal with the fact that racing motorcycles is inherently expensive.
2. Realize that, especially at the club level, it's 90% rider, 10% bike, or something along those lines.
3. Decide how much you want to invest in time, money and effort to achieve the best possible results. If you can't invest enough, for whatever reasons, then
4. Get over it. Life is just unfair sometimes. Quit trying to change the paradigm to fit your needs/wants. It's racing, and for someone to win, someone else has to lose.

Sorry if that sounds harsh, but come on. Personally, when I fail, I don't try to change the parameters; I try harder to succeed, and if I'm limited financially or otherwise, well, too bad for me, but so it goes. If I do succeed, well, hurray!, I guess I earned it. Honestly, I definitely wouldn't keep crying about how expensive/unfair/addictive/evil racing is, especially if I wasn't even currently participating in the sport.

When I decided to go racing (in '08), I entered the classes that my bike (the '96 900) was eligible for, and did the best I could. Considering that, ultimately, the goal of racing, winning, is at least simple in concept, if not execution, why does it need to be any more complicated than this???

Ok, I'm going to go find a ladder now, because this damn horse is freaking tall.


Jim Berard CCS MW#904