Proposed rule change: Gridding by points (revisited)

[hernan52]

On March 28, 2007 Dave Rosno posted a proposal to modify Rule 3.4.2 (Series Gridding Procedures)
I believe that Dave's proposal is good business for CCS and would be a great improvement to the existing system, especially from the safety point of view.

A good discussion developed based on his original post. See thread: Rules proposal - 3.4.2 - For 2008 REV 4/03/07  (Read 2741 times)

One of the concerns expressed by some riders was that the proposal came AFTER many of them had already submitted pre-entry dollars.  This situation could be avoided for next season if the rule is changed prior to December 2009.

There were also some concerns about combined events and/or brand contingency ones which could be addressed by making specific  event exceptions.

I strongly support Dave's proposal for the 2010 season.

Hernan
CCS#619


Dave's Proposal

Current rule:

3.4.2 - CCS Series Gridding Procedures
A. Unless otherwise stated, riders will be gridded in order of entry for CCS Sprint Events.  (Note:  CCS affiliates may use different grid order procedures.  Check with the local organization for specific information on gridding.)


Proposed Rule Change

3.4.2 CCS Series Gridding Procedures
A. Unless otherwise stated, riders will be gridded pre entered riders first by most current regional class points standings, post entered riders by order of entry.  If a rider has points in multiple regions, the highest point standing will be used.  (Note:  CCS affiliates may use different grid order procedures.  Check with the local organization for specific information on gridding.)
     i.  Riders will be gridded for opening regional events by order of entry.

Proposal - Version MkII

3.4.2 CCS Series Gridding Procedures
A. Unless otherwise stated, riders will be gridded pre entered riders first by most current regional class standings with host region riders first, other region riders at random; post entered riders by order of entry.  If a rider has class standings in multiple regions, the highest class standing will be used.  (Note:  CCS affiliates may use different grid order procedures.  Check with the local organization for specific information on gridding.)
     i.  Riders will be gridded for opening region events by order of entry only.

[Eric Kelcher]

Here is info on the review from last year. I would suggest new bit of information to make such a radical change during the current economy especially considering that grids are down with a grid by points system.

Upon review of requests for changes to grid procedure,  one theme stood out, that griding by points was rewarding the loyal customer. The flaw with that is if your loyal customer finishes say 15th in 7 races, he scores 70 points, while a "contingency hunter" only races  and wins twice has the same 70 points, who deserves to rewarded? The loyal customer or the contingency hunter? Grids by order of entry gives all riders the opportunity to start towards the front.

Also in response to the request to grid by points, a comparison was made to other organizations that do grid by points and everywhere there was head to head competition within that geographical area entry date was preferred, by 45% more entries for entry date to points. Now granted there are differences other than just griding methods that may be reason that CCS sees more entries than other organizations in these areas of head to head competition such as classes, rules enforcement, officials, racers, tracks, pricing, etc but it is just another element that we do different that adds up to the whole package that makes CCS the leader in US road racing.

Other common comment was regarding safety because the "faster" riders may have to start in the back.  Excuse me while I toss this out for your consideration,  now we need everyone to bring their time slip from the drag strip indicating their reaction time and we grid that way or 60 foot times or ¼ mile times? Absurd, yes, this is not bracket racing, but this would be the only way to accurately judge how quick someone is going to start a race to make it safer. Since all riders start at a dead stop and are on similar machines, the number of points scored are irrelevant to safety.

So then we looked at other options, heat races or qualifying, which would require the reduction of race classes by 1/2 and a double entry fees for the same amount of race time, the increase in entry fees nixed this one. (Mainly because comments from riders about increased fees associated with this for tires and the rush to front in limited time.)

Now granted there are differences other than just gridding methods that may be reason that CCS sees more entries than competition in these areas of head to head competition such as classes, rules enforcement, officials, racers, tracks, pricing, etc but it is just another element that we do different that adds up to the whole package that makes CCS the leader in US roadracing.


FYI LRRS went to grids by entry for 2009 season, comparsion of % change from 2008 to 2009 vs other regions will be interesting.

[Super Dave]

The flaw with that is if your loyal customer finishes say 15th in 7 races, he scores 70 points, while a "contingency hunter" only races  and wins twice has the same 70 points, who deserves to rewarded? The loyal customer or the contingency hunter? Grids by order of entry gives all riders the opportunity to start towards the front.

That is a very skewed scenario.

How about a rider that does seven races and finishes fourth every time?  He'd be ahead of that other guy that had two wins in two races.  How about the regular regional racer that won the other seven racers that the contingency hunter didn't attend?  Is it reasonable that he or she would be at the front if they pre entered?

[mwsportsimaging]

Is griding by practice session lap times completly out of the question?

[Super Dave]

Is griding by practice session lap times completly out of the question?

Most likely, yes. 

Multiple bikes, multiple classes, riders on different bikes. 

Just to make an example, there are only so many transmitters.  Riders with multiple bikes have only that single transmitter.  There isn't a way to knowingly separate the times.  Or even imagine issues with rain in one session where a rider that is on a middle weight bike riding in multiple classes is trying to "qualify" against a rider that is in another session that is dry. 

It would be nice, but it doesn't reward a good, regular CCS racer.  That's the point of gridding by points:  reward the regular regional racer even if he's not finishing up front. 

[Gixxerblade]

I just feel lucky to be out there. Makes no difference to me.

[HAWK]

If the point is to reward the "regular racer" then what is wrong with the pre-entry system. They help CCS to deal with the costs of putting on the season by giving them the upfront money to put on the weekend. Take away the reward for preentry and CCS will not see any money until race day and will most likely lose entrants due to weather watching.

If you want to grid by qualification then why not use the riders PI. This would not be skewwed by number of races and is a relativly good indication of the riders finishing position.

[Noidly1]

I'm with Dave and Paul on this one.
Grid pre-entries first by PI, then the rest after by entry time.

The only problem I see with going by PI is that some racers, like myself, that have good lap times but crash out or have mechanicals that kill their PI.

As far as gridding by practice times, that shouldn't be a problem because we practice in our perspective group, however if ther is a time when officials decide to have open practice sessions, then all that goes out the window.

[George_Linhart]

If the point is to reward the "regular racer" then what is wrong with the pre-entry system. They help CCS to deal with the costs of putting on the season by giving them the upfront money to put on the weekend. Take away the reward for preentry and CCS will not see any money until race day and will most likely lose entrants due to weather watching.

If you want to grid by qualification then why not use the riders PI. This would not be skewwed by number of races and is a relativly good indication of the riders finishing position.

I've got to agree with Hawk.  If I choose not to pre-enter, or if the situation makes pre-entry not a viable option (budgetary, work or family issues) then it is my responsibility to safely pass anyone gridded ahead of me at the start of a race.  I can see where the complaints come from, but no system is perfect and it just comes down to what imperfect system the series decides to use.

George

[Noidly1]

I've got to agree with Hawk.  If I choose not to pre-enter, or if the situation makes pre-entry not a viable option (budgetary, work or family issues) then it is my responsibility to safely pass anyone gridded ahead of me at the start of a race.  I can see where the complaints come from, but no system is perfect and it just comes down to what imperfect system the series decides to use.

George

Agreed...

[MUZ720]

LRRS did a points system this year and it worked well! Paid to enter allot of classes as it was total points overall,  not just for  the class entered. Grids where down from last year here also.   So pre-entery was to save a few bucks for myself as I only do one or two races a weekend.  I think it was a fair system rewarding not only the fast guys but racers that race allot.

[eboos]

I agree. The Loudon Road Race Series gridded by points this year. At first, I thought that was going to be a problem since I am only able to do 2 races per weekend, and I had to take a chunk of the season off, but I found no trouble getting through an extra row. It actually worked out better since I needed greater flexability this season and coudln't commit to every event.

There were problems at first though. Improper grid assignments and other entry errors, but things smoothed out quickly as the season went on.

[hernan52]

Unless I'm reading Dave's proposal incorrectly, he is maintaining a priority for pre-entry riders.  Therefore the existing incentive to register early remains.The "layer" he adds applies for those who pre-entered by gridding them by points.

I don't have hard data to back my opinion but I trust that CCS best customers (the racers who race the most) will benefit from it.

In my opinion, gridding by Championship points works better tha PI because it rewards the riders who race more often (which, I assume, is what CCS wants to encourage).
Example: I'm only planning to race twice next year.  I register early.  I secured a first row position against racers who will spend ten times what I will spend during the season.
The idea is to give your best customers (those who race more) the best possible service.  This is a very normal business practice used in the airline and hospitality industries (preferred customer programs).
Yes, cash flow is VERY important.  There are also additional ways for CCS to encourage early payments such as tiered prices even for pre-registration (the earliest, the cheaper) and "bulk" discounts but only for "early birds".
Too complex to describe in detail in this message but not difficult to achieve with current commercially available software.

As for the safety factor, I don't have data on this.  Again, my gut feeling tells me that many of the first lap close calls are due to racers passing slower racers gridded ahead of them. (If not, let the experts start in the second wave...  )
Does Dave's recommendation eliminates this?  Certainly not.  But it clearly improves the current situation.

As someone said,  Not perfect.  Many issues remain.  But, in my opinion it's better than the current system.

Hernan

[ahastings]

ive been submitting this proposal to ccs for the past several years. I believe the gridding by preentry is nothing more then a financial issue to get more money to CCS sooner. I dont think it will affect the turnout one way or another, but it is definitely safer to grid by points. the faster riders are also generally the more aggressive into turn one. So when you have guys on the front row that are 5-10 seconds off the pace it creates some hairy situations at the starts

[skiandclimb]

I am pretty sure CCS/SW already grids by points.....someone correct me if I am wrong.

[daviid]

The flaw with that is if your loyal customer finishes say 15th in 7 races, he scores 70 points, while a "contingency hunter" only races  and wins twice has the same 70 points, who deserves to rewarded? The loyal customer or the contingency hunter? Grids by order of entry gives all riders the opportunity to start towards the front.

How about basing a tie off of performance index?

[hernan52]

Three comments:

1. I like David's idea to solve "equal points" situation: use the PI.
2. I agree with Dave Rosno's response to this point above.
3. It is up to CCS to decide who is your "core" customer that you want to reward.
Riders with Championship points have one thing in common:  They show up on a consistent basis.  In all tracks and in all weather conditions.  Most of them do pre-register.  For me, as a business person, the choice between my loyal customer and the eventual contingency rider is a no brainer.

Hernan

PS: about safety (again).  Do we REALLY believe that it makes no difference to grid pre-entered riders by points?
I could understand the argument that because it doesn't solve all issues, it's not worth the effort...... but, no difference?
I must have been riding in a parallel universe.

[Team Spalding]

So good points there Hernan.

[badmonkey]

With the grids as small as they are nowadays  why are you so concerned about where you are on the grid. Why not figure out a way to get more bikes out there. That seems to me like the more important problem.

[Super Dave]

With the grids as small as they are nowadays  why are you so concerned about where you are on the grid. Why not figure out a way to get more bikes out there. That seems to me like the more important problem.

Why should that be an individual rider issue?  The racer works hard enough to get to the race.  Why shouldn't current and future racers be rewarded for their patronage?  That is a way to get more bikes out there that the racing organization could undertake on its own.

[ahastings]

maybe a better gridding procedure will get more people out there.

[badmonkey]

Missing the point SD.  Turnout is down and the grids are small as crap. If you cant get a good start go to your local dragstrip and practice. 

[ahastings]

grids arent small as crap in all classes, its a different game in the middleweight and heavyweight stuff then the lightweight

[Super Dave]

Missing the point SD.  Turnout is down and the grids are small as crap. If you cant get a good start go to your local dragstrip and practice. 

Ok, then, why not grid alphabetically...

[roadracer162]

I would change my name to AAA

[Super Dave]

I would change my name to AAA

I'm going for "a", so you'll have to be next to me on the grid.

[RAISING CANE]

I have never cared for the pre entry method of gridding riders but now that Ive been involved for several years it seems to make sense. I have noticed that the riders who are seriously going after a class title or going after contingency money will make the effort to get all thier pre-entries in early as possible. The casual racers that i have encountered purposly enter closer to the deadline to avoid grid positions up front and the very new riders tend to enter at the event.

Now this is certainly not always the case, but seems to work out this way most of the time.

Given the complexity of using points or lap times....pre-entry works.

[skiandclimb]

I don't mind pre-entry gridding.  I truly hope that it comes down to a performance index deal though.  I rode in Supertwins and didn't get one of those points added to my year end #'s....which I feel is complete doo-doo. If P.I. were a factor, guys like me would always grid in the rear if we ventured into other races.

Off topic, but can anyone tell me why certain races are not equal to others?

TIA,
Ski

[Super Dave]

Off topic, but can anyone tell me why certain races are not equal to others?

For PI?  Number of entries.  If you win a race with 50 riders, it would follow that it is "better" than winning a race with 5 riders in it.

[skiandclimb]

For PI?  Number of entries.  If you win a race with 50 riders, it would follow that it is "better" than winning a race with 5 riders in it.

No, I get that. I also agree with it. I was really talking about why certain races are considered different in terms of points. IE: Supertwins points are not counted towards total points or P.I.  Why is this? We pay the same license fees, race entry fees, etc.  But our pts. dont count? Just wondering...

[Super Dave]

No, I get that. I also agree with it. I was really talking about why certain races are considered different in terms of points. IE: Supertwins points are not counted towards total points or P.I.  Why is this? We pay the same license fees, race entry fees, etc.  But our pts. dont count? Just wondering...

Because it is very specific to a particular kind of exclusive bike.  Supertwins - twins.  Supersport, Superbike, GP includes any design two stroke, four stroke, three's, four's, six's, twin's, singles, etc...they are inclusive classes.

[ahastings]

For PI?  Number of entries.  If you win a race with 50 riders, it would follow that it is "better" than winning a race with 5 riders in it.

actually you are a little off there Dave. If you win a race your PI is always 1000 no matter how few riders are in it, its when you get 2nd or worse that your pi will be higher with more riders :)

[Super Dave]

actually you are a little off there Dave. If you win a race your PI is always 1000 no matter how few riders are in it, its when you get 2nd or worse that your pi will be higher with more riders :)

Thanks, Arnie!

I really don't care much about PI.  Thought the whole thing was gay.  Let's just go race.  Second place is still the first looser.

[ahastings]

Thanks, Arnie!

I really don't care much about PI.  Thought the whole thing was gay.  Let's just go race.  Second place is still the first looser.

well the PI is only used for one thing and rightfully so and that is when determining the top 10 overall experts in each region, which sort of cuts down on people just piling on classes they arent competitive in to win a #1 overall . Although I still think a better way would be just to take your best 5 classes and forget the pi.

[Super Dave]

Although I still think a better way would be just to take your best 5 classes and forget the pi.

I advocated that for years myself.  Would still allow a racer to pile on nine or ten classes to keep CCS going better while opening it up for other riders. 

[Boober]

I find problems with every possible scenario so I vote to leave it as is!

[mattg]

i vote to grid by points in that particular class.  using only points earned in MWGP races for MWGP grid position.  Then, only allow gridding by points for pre-entry. 

Post entry could go either way, by date / time of entry or by points.. I'm indifferent at that point. 


thoughts?  (sorry if this has been mentioned, I've been reading this thread all afternoon between moments of working)

[Greeny]

although this is probably gonna put me on the outside of matt for every start, i agree ^^^ if it's not too much trouble.  ;)

[Super Dave]

I'll post up Hernan's revision of my original rule proposal, and I think Hernan's covers a couple of scenarios that I didn't cover....

3.4.2 CCS Series Gridding Procedures
A. Unless otherwise stated, riders will be gridded pre entered riders first by most current regional class standings with host region riders first, other region riders at random; post entered riders by order of entry.  If a rider has class standings in multiple regions, the highest class standing will be used.  (Note:  CCS affiliates may use different grid order procedures.  Check with the local organization for specific information on gridding.)
     i.  Riders will be gridded for opening region events by order of entry only.

[Greeny]

so just to clarify, if you have 100 pts in the GP region and ur currently in 1st, but you're at a MW event which you have, say, 30 pts in that specific region...  would you be gridded at Blackhawk according to your 30 MW points (in front of other MW riders that pre entered with less points) or BEHIND all the MW pre entries bc your GP status of class leader takes precedence? 

I hope that made sense...