Watter wetter? Evans? or pure H2O????

[Apollo]

Im new to this wacky roller coaster you all call a sport.

The bike i just purchased is setup for the track (1996 F3).  2003 will be my first season.
It currently has evans npg in the radiator.  I will be putting a new radiator and thermostat on the bike.  

What are some suggestions on what to run for coolant.  Some pros and cons are appreciated if you have the time!!!!!

Thanks

[tzracer]

I would not run straight water.

Water wetter works well, but it is not an antifreeze. Mix it according to the directions for it to work properly.

Evans and Engine Ice also work well but are more expensive than water wetter. Both of these products are also anti-freeze.

I have mostly run distilled h20 and water wetter in my TZ. I have a heated garage and the water gets drained fairly often (I tend not to reuse).
If my bike is going to be subjected to below freezing temps, I would use either Evans or Engine Ice.

[tcchin]

Water wetter and water is a much better coolant than straight propylene glycol. Water has a higher heat capacity and better thermal conductivity than PG, which means that it can transfer heat more quickly from your engine, and then hold more of it. Once it reaches the radiator, it rejects heat more quickly, too.

Unfortunately, water has a lower boiling point than PG, so it has a greater tendency to cavitate (boil) when in contact with really hot surfaces, which greatly reduces its heat transfer performance. We experienced this in an R6 that we built - it'd puke water out of the overflow bottle, even though the temp gauge only read 195 or so. Once we started using straight PG, the cavitation stopped, the temp gauge dropped to 185, and the boil-over was eliminated.

In our 1996 F3 race bike, we're using water and water wetter with no problems.

BTW, there are less expensive alternatives to Evans and Engine Ice. Many antifreeze manufacturers (Amsoil in particular) produce PG-based coolants, which can be had at less than half the price of Evans. Engine Ice is just a 50/50 mix of water and PG, which makes it really expensive.

[tshort]

>>Engine Ice is just a 50/50 mix of water and PG, which makes it really expensive. <<

Is PG track/race legal?

[tcchin]

Yes.

[ceesthadees]

Amsoil (PG) at 50/50 with distilled water rocks. It works great for the heat in Florida and should lower the freezing point enough for anyplace worth racing (sorry about that Alaska). Plus, the purple color is kewl.

PS. I've heard that straight water will allow aluminum radiators to corrode.

[Apollo]

I have evans in it now.  Will this work or is one of the others better.

[ceesthadees]

I have used Evans before and it works great. The only reason I tried and then switched to Amsoil is the cost.

I seem to have to fix my bike alot  ;D.

[bweber]

Don't use straight water because it will cause corrosion.  I made that mistake for a half season and it made a mess out of the waterpump cover and who knows what else.  Water-Wetter protects the surfaces from corrosion, but that is all it does.  It is not an anti-freeze so just make sure the bike will not see temps below 32 degrees F.  I use Water-Wetter and distilled water because it is cheap and I simply change to 50-50 water/anti-freeze after the season is over and before winter sets in.

[Super Dave]

Everything sounds spot on...

Water Wetter is a corrosion inhibitor.

Propylene Glycol was outlawed by NASCAR because it did offer an advantage to teams using it.  They didn't need to run so much air through the car, thus, an aerodynamic advantage.

You can get PG products off the shelf too.  Seems like "Sierra" is a 50/50 mix of PG and water.  Run you about $6.50 at Wal-Mart.  You really need that in the Midwest with the weather that we've had at the beginning of some of these seasons.

Then it gets warmer, and one usually switches to water.

Now, about Water Wetter.  It was designed for pumper trucks in the fire fighting industry to reduce corrosion in pumper trucks.  Firemen eventually found out that Palmolive dish washing detergent has the same ingredants.  So, guess what they use.  Guess what's cheaper?  

I've used it.  Works fine.  Mix is up like Water Wetter, 4oz per gallon?

[sdiver68]

SD is spot on, another PG Coolant you can find everywhere and is cheap is Prestone Low Tox.  Just listing an alternate in case your Wal-Mart doesn't have the Sierra ;)

[ceesthadees]

Hey SD,

Would the dish soap make a slick spot if spilled on the track, or is the concentration low enough not to make a difference?

Sounds intriguing!

[FastBoy]

One thing of note. Evans and Engine Ice are no longer allowed for NESBA track days/schools.

[ceesthadees]

"One thing of note. Evans and Engine Ice are no longer allowed for NESBA track days/schools. "

Really?, any reason given?

[FastBoy]

No not yet. I just saw it on their website after signing up for a few classes. In BIG bold letters under the tech prep section.

I've heard grumblings from some racers that CCS and WERA were considering the same but they (the racers) weren't sure.

I'm pissed. I just filled my track/race bike with it and bought a couple extra gallons as well in case of a crash and dump/damage.

[BC61]

It's not WERA legal. Too slick.

[FastBoy]

Well is it CCS legal this year?

[mrbillydee]

That's what I want to know.  It would be nice to have something that I could leave in there over the winter and not worry about.

[rsmith]

FYI, I believe one of the reasons NESBA doesn't allow Evans and Engine Ice is because of required cleanup time.  It is just as difficult to cleanup as standard antifreeze.  The club works hard to ensure the members get maximum track time.

If you have further questions contact the NESBA directors.
nesba@nesba.com

Take care,

[chris_chops]

Users of evans and engine ice,
    Even if CCS says it is legal, please do your fellow racers a favor and do not use it at the track.  The stuff is way to slick and difficult to clean up.  Even when they do clean it up, the area is slicker than the rest of the track afterwards and people still crash on it a couple of races later.  The next morning the dew will bring some more up and "I don't know what happened,  :o I just lost it practice this morning right where team engine ice's rider crashed yesterday."  If CCS says it is O.K. to ride without a helmet, would you?  Please don't answer that!

[sdiver68]

It's not that simple for those of us in the upper Mid-West and North.  Not using PG means risking severe engine damage when the temp drops to 25...or 18! like it was the first weekend at Gateway last year.

However, as soon as freezing temps are no longer in the equation (Mid-April?), please do change to water for those reasons.

[chris_chops]

After a day of racing I want to go home or back to the hotel as much as the next guy.  Although draining/filling coolant is a pain in the arse, that is what I do(I'm from chicago) when the mercury is in the danger zone.  My safety and yours should not be at the whim of others.  Slippery coolant should never be in a bike at the track.  I used to race in Glrra before the officials mandated bellypans, so I didn't use one.  This was totally legal!  When I threw my chain and holed my side cover I ruined three racers weekends in the braking zone behind me.  I felt like an idiot and I felt like a jerk.  Changed my whole attitude. Unfortunately, some people don't ever feel that way.  Even when they ruin other people's bikes and bodies over a ten minute procedure.

Matt Carr
GL Ex#150

I'm just trying to make the track a better place for all.  I don't want to fight, I'm just looking out for fellow racers.  On this site I don't add my two cents over every topic just to argue with people and cause trouble, I truly believe our sport can be safer than it currently is.  I understand that things are going to happen, but let's do everything we can to PREVENT mishaps, little injuries, and serious ones.  In fact, if it is cold down at gateway or wherever this year during CCS action,  I'll help you drain and fill your coolant.  I'll have plenty of time down at gateway because I won't have any money to race by that weekend.  

[Super Dave]

PG is basically like oil.  It's a mess to clean up.

What happens with Palmolive and water?  You're really not using much, so you'll have the similar results if you ran over water or water and Waterwetter.  

But, it's better than running over oil.

[sdiver68]

Matt,

I'm not trying to fight at all, I'll leave that to others.  One thing I like about this BBS over others is its mostly civil.  But does that mean we won't talk about disagreements, sometimes in a back and forth over several posts?  hell no!  We're racers, after all, and it takes someone with a fair amount of ego to risk life and limb just for the satisfaction of starting and ending in the same spot faster than others! ;)

Now, as I understand it, when you drain your coolant you are still leaving lots of water in the engine itself, in the tight cooling passages.  These are the same passages that can break and ruin an engine.  I'm not sure how draining your coolant, mostly out of the radiator and reserve tank, is going to prevent freezing.  I'm not saying it won't, looking for clarification on the subject.

[Nate R]

When you drain it from the water pump drain plug, you'll get almost all of it out. The water needs room to expand, and you'd need a LOT of pressure to crack a block. A little bit of water left has room to expand, and probably wont crack the cylinder.

[chris_chops]

I'm not positive about the inline fours, but I have drained my four-valve and left them in the garage for the winter for the last three years.  I definitely don't want to see your cylinders crack, so hopefully it will be warm enough this year.  You could try putting a thermometer on the engine in the trailer or whatever as a test a couple nights before to see exactly how cold the bike gets.  It takes a very cold night to even come close to freezing water in a bike that is not directly exposed to the elements.  I know this because I forgot a couple of times about the water in the bike when it was in the trailer in the beginning of the winter.  Take care,
Matt

[Eric Kelcher]

Well we did a test at the beginning of last year to try out several different methods for cleaning up the odd fluid that might end up on the track, Dyno-oil, Semi-Syn oil, Full syn oil, as well as Ethyl Gycol and PG antifreezes.
We found a number of things EG is difficult to clean(big surprise ::) ) up and leaves a residue that comes back slick 20-30 minutes after area is determined "clean". PG can be be cleaned up as easy as Semi-Syn oil BUT it must be cleaned as opposed to water or water wetter and water which is just allowed to dry.

The hardest thing we found to clean? Full Syn that has been heated to 175F and we found special solutions to clean this up. Oil dri wasn't going to cut it.

Has anyone gotten the mailer? Is PG still legal?