Here's the "skinny" about the CCS-Exclusive Pirelli Diablo 600 Challenge Spec Class - an additional class to be added to the 2010 weekend schedules. This stuff is official BUT still "Projected" and subject to change! I'll be creating a new FAQs page for the CCS website soon which will have this and any updates that come about.
The boss wanted me to stress this -> It is a new, separate class - not a requirement or replacement for any other class.
This is what is known as of today (Dec 3, 2009). Hope this helps clear up any misconceptions that may have occurred in other discussions.
The Basics:
When? All 2010 CCS sanctioned events
Race Length: 20-24 miles
Grids: Timed Practice or Dedicated Qualifying Session
Licensed CCS Experts only
Post Entry at the track only (no pre-entries) - use separate Post Entry Form
Entry Fee: $100
Requirements: (so far)
Separate Contingency Form? No.
Post-Race Inspection? Yes.
Motorcycle: 600cc (similar to MW SuperSport rules)
Tires: Pirelli Diablo Supercorsa (exact models TBA)
Purses: (projected)
Dependent upon number of starters: 6 pays top 3; 8 pays top 4 etc.
Minimum Amounts: 1st $300, 2nd $200, 3rd $150
Payment: By check, mailed from CCS Office within 7 days of receipt of official results and entry forms from each event
I don't know any more right now .. so don't ask. Wait for the Daytona mailer (due out later this month), which is supposed to contain more.
So I'm gonna ASSume that this won't be a overall points paying class seeing as it's only for 600 riders on Pirrelli's?? WoW! Experts only.....that's like two people in the midwest region! A race that length will DESTROY a set of tires almost everywhere so with qualifying you need two sets! I'LL PASS :kicknuts:
regular sprints are normally 15-18 miles long. How is a 20-24 mile long race gonna DESTROY a tire compared to a 16 mile race?
Lets just see how this shapes up before we start slamming the idea.
Pirelli and CCS are trying to put together something which will benefit us and them. I do not get all the bashing.
I like the idea, I always said I would never make the jump to MW but if this series flies and the rules structure keeps the costs reasonable I might just consider it.
Quite honestly...... I'm looking forward to it! :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin:
Joel,
we might need to find 600's! (i'll need to find a white plate also) :)
tim
still the same issue, riders with tire contracts which may or may not be alot will not be able to race in this class, also riders who use a different tire due to choice most likely will not want to go back and forth between two different tires and have to change suspension set up and what not, so with that being said how big due you really think the grids will be, you are now starting a class that only certain people will be able to race 1st is experts only, 2nd is 600s only, 3rd is Pirelli tires only,
i would love to race the class and it looks like it will be the best paying class now but i will not be able to race in this class nor will others, the more limits you have on the class the more people you are eliminating
Quote from: racerhall on December 04, 2009, 10:07:20 AM
still the same issue, riders with tire contracts which may or may not be alot will not be able to race in this class, also riders who use a different tire due to choice most likely will not want to go back and forth between two different tires and have to change suspension set up and what not, so with that being said how big due you really think the grids will be, you are now starting a class that only certain people will be able to race 1st is experts only, 2nd is 600s only, 3rd is Pirelli tires only,
i would love to race the class and it looks like it will be the best paying class now but i will not be able to race in this class nor will others, the more limits you have on the class the more people you are eliminating
As far as the tires - isn't that the whole reason Pirelli is sponsoring it - to get more riders to switch from other brands to their tires in order to compete in this class and have a chance at the purse. It makes a lot of sense to me from a capitalistic perspective. It also, potentially, makes a tire contract with another manufacturer that much less valuable if you could otherwise race the spec class and win.
Everybody bitches about purses going down and contingency being tougher, but, when a company steps up to help create a new purse class there are more complaints than applauds. Go figure.
I'd love to see this idea take off. I liked the idea of the Diablo Cup they had a few years back - only issue was that you had to use their street/trackday tire (the PDC) vs. race tires. Those original PDCs were fine for track days and wore like steel, but, were just not up to it in terms of outright cornering grip and feedback (especially on corner entry, hard on the brakes pushing the front tire) for regular use in heated competition.
George
To be fair, CCS did run a poll on this class:
http://www.ccsforum.com/index.php/topic,23818.0.html
Also, if you talk to your tire sponsor they will sometimes allow you to run a spec series on a competing tire, as long as you run the rest of your races on the tire you are contracted to run. This was common when MotoST/GT was alive.
Props to CCS and Pirelli for putting together another option for racers. It's not a class that's meant for everyone. Cool thing is that if it is successful, Pirelli and other companies will be more willing to have greater involvement in the sport in the future.
just seems weird that, in the past, when people brought up the idea of adding a class, some bitched that it will cut into practice or shorten already short races. But now it's OK. Where will this fit in and what will be eliminated to make room for it? Seems time is an issue most weekends with a "normal schedule".
Quote from: spyderchick on December 04, 2009, 05:02:41 PM
To be fair, CCS did run a poll on this class:
http://www.ccsforum.com/index.php/topic,23818.0.html
Also, if you talk to your tire sponsor they will sometimes allow you to run a spec series on a competing tire, as long as you run the rest of your races on the tire you are contracted to run. This was common when MotoST/GT was alive.
Props to CCS and Pirelli for putting together another option for racers. It's not a class that's meant for everyone. Cool thing is that if it is successful, Pirelli and other companies will be more willing to have greater involvement in the sport in the future.
that poll was about a normal money paying class that anyone could enter, not a spec tire class. I'm not totally against it but adding another race and a qualifying session in the schedule when they can barely get through the schedule now and have to cut laps at least 25% of the time already when they have a bunch of red flags.
Quote from: George_Linhart on December 04, 2009, 04:39:24 PM
As far as the tires - isn't that the whole reason Pirelli is sponsoring it - to get more riders to switch from other brands to their tires in order to compete in this class and have a chance at the purse. It makes a lot of sense to me from a capitalistic perspective. It also, potentially, makes a tire contract with another manufacturer that much less valuable if you could otherwise race the spec class and win.
Well...
It's a marketing opportunity. Obviously, the winner of a spec tire class is always racing on that spec tire.
How much money can be made is the real question for a capitalist racer. A spec tire series usually requires a spec tire price. So, there will be no contracts for tire support in that part of the program. A racer would have to pay to play in comparison to a very fast and well marketed rider that might be able to get free tires and contingency in other classes. Doesn't really reduce the value of a tire contract as there are still a huge number of classes and organizations that won't be running that single, very focused class.
It is an opportunity for some racers that don't have contracts, obligations or commitments.
Don't you love when people who don't race at all or didn't race this year or don't have anything to do with a CCS middleweight expert race comment and/or vote on this topic!? :wtf:
Quote from: sasrocks on December 03, 2009, 10:08:01 PM
regular sprints are normally 15-18 miles long. How is a 20-24 mile long race gonna DESTROY a tire compared to a 16 mile race?
Lets just see how this shapes up before we start slamming the idea.
Someday when you win a 600cc expert race look at your rear tire.
Quote from: Boober on December 04, 2009, 08:41:30 PM
Don't you love when people who don't race at all or didn't race this year or don't have anything to do with a CCS middleweight expert race comment and/or vote on this topic!? :wtf:
LOL! So, you are the seat of all knowledge for all time?
Quote from: Boober on December 04, 2009, 08:44:02 PM
Someday when you win a 600cc expert race look at your rear tire.
:rollseyes:
I will, but since I am so smooth on the throttle and such a fantastic rider :biggrin: I doubt it will look much different from the MW and UL races I won this year :lmao:
Quote from: sasrocks on December 05, 2009, 10:39:42 AM
:rollseyes:
I will, but since I am so smooth on the throttle and such a fantastic rider :biggrin: I doubt it will look much different from the MW and UL races I won this year :lmao:
It better or you are in trouble when you turn expert!
Quote from: Super Dave on December 05, 2009, 07:53:10 AM
LOL! So, you are the seat of all knowledge for all time?
Wow! You wanted to throw that at someone else for a change Dave?
So last year Pirelli paid $350 in contingency to win in a ton of different classes......will that be in addition to the CCS $300 or is the contingency gone? I also agree it will be a low turn out class, at least here in the midwest. A quick look at the points or at any weekend's results shows few enough riders that any contingency payouts from Pirelli may be void anyway. CCS had qualifying in ULGP (another purse paying class) just a couple of years ago and it got canned. I always did one quick lap and parked it (to save tires) and just took whatever grid I got.
Seems like a waste of precious time on an already tight schedule to me.
Quote from: Boober on December 05, 2009, 02:58:27 PM
It better or you are in trouble when you turn expert!
Wow...I guess I'm not qualified to comment on this since I didn't race in 09, and my best finish in an expert MW race is second. But thats an ignorant thing to say.
But if I was in a postition to comment, I might say that the measure of speed is not your ability to wreck your tires, quite the contrary.
Go look at the bikes on the podium after an AMA or World Supersport race and tell me if their tires are destroyed.
Actually here's Joan Lascorz's rear tire after 18 laps in the World Supersport race at Miller. (He was fourth) This is the same Pirelli tire you get trackside. I guess he wasn't going fast enough... :rollseyes:
(https://www.ccsforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi912.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fac327%2Fapexheating%2F100_0547.jpg&hash=d5e9b2a68222aab172af09fba4f65ae180c45502)
Quote from: JBraun on December 05, 2009, 05:51:37 PM
Actually here's Joan Lascorz's rear tire after 18 laps in the World Supersport race at Miller. (He was fourth) This is the same Pirelli tire you get trackside. I guess he wasn't going fast enough... :rollseyes:
(https://www.ccsforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi912.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fac327%2Fapexheating%2F100_0547.jpg&hash=d5e9b2a68222aab172af09fba4f65ae180c45502)
Yep he obviously sucks. :blahblah: :jerkoff:
Quote from: Boober on December 03, 2009, 09:22:16 PM
So I'm gonna ASSume that this won't be a overall points paying class seeing as it's only for 600 riders on Pirrelli's?? WoW! Experts only.....that's like two people in the midwest region! A race that length will DESTROY a set of tires almost everywhere so with qualifying you need two sets! I'LL PASS :kicknuts:
Anybody recall the Team Challenge race I did at Blackhawk? Just so you know I run on Pirelli tires. I won that race overall starting from the back row racing by myself with no quick fuel can. Just my buds and a crappy fuel jug.
Oh yeah back to the tire issue... They looked brand new when I got off the track! I even used them later for another race. Then when I did a whole track day at Blackhawk on them and still pulled respectable low 11's with the rubber almost gone off the carcass. Yeah it was spinning up a bit and I was sliding. But lets see.....I must have put on like ? 250-300 miles on those tires at a mostly blistering pace.
So in my honest opinion the tires last if your bike is setup properly and well.... you know how to ride? No pun intended.
My tire actually looked like the one pictured below after the team challenge. :biggrin: I was dissapointed that I used a Yellow after the race thinking I could have used a green and went even much faster.
From a business stand point I'm sure Pirelli is paying CCS to put on this class. CCS like any other "US company" is probably hurting a little for cash. So if you think about it..... PIrelli is only help make sure that we have a place to race next year.
Its a win win for everyone. If your jealous because you ride a different brand tire and cannot ride that class then no worries. You will not loose any points, wear yourself out, or lose anymore money because the class exist. Plus it might also give you more relaxation time in the pits to prepare your bike for our next race you can or will run. Plus if you competitor is racing this new class and your not, they only have less time to prepare themselves for the next race or fix crash damage and they might be on a budget and only afford to race so many classes. In turn your "competitor" will only now race one less points paying race which will help the non runner achieve an overall or another class championship "if that is their goal".
CCS will be satified that they have money from PIrelli to "try" an new concept plus be able to still put on a racing series for all racers.
Pirelli will be satified that "I don't care what the others might say",more riders WILL choose to purchase Pirelli tires since they do not want to change their setup for different brand tires since they do not have a contract. That will help sell more tires for them.
If you have never rode on Pirelli tires and are not sure if the tires will "Last" or help you go just as fast or faster than your current tires, all I gotta say is I love them. Let my record on these tires speak for themselves.
I don't race for championships, I race to win and be able to pay my bills from racing only if manufactures are paying contingency for my efforts.
Quote from: TommyG on December 05, 2009, 05:21:14 PM
Wow! You wanted to throw that at someone else for a change Dave?
LOL!
Quote from: TommyG on December 05, 2009, 05:31:49 PMI always did one quick lap and parked it (to save tires) and just took whatever grid I got.
Seems like a waste of precious time on an already tight schedule to me.
Yeah, in 2006, that was what I did too. In 2004, I know that I would spend a little more time in working qualifying a bit, and I would take the time to use a new rear for a couple faster laps at the end of the qualifier.
if i had to guess there wont be much pay out in contingency if pirelli is sponsering the race with there tire it most likly cost them money to sponser the class.
and if it is like AMA with dunlop there was no payout.
hope it works out and theres a full grid every weekend,we will see what happens
but it does seem like an ASRA race ,entry fee, lenght, and pay out
Quote from: J Farrell / Speed Tech Motorsp on December 04, 2009, 02:34:52 AM
Quite honestly...... I'm looking forward to it! :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin:
That makes two of us!...
Quote from: J Farrell / Speed Tech Motorsp on December 04, 2009, 02:34:52 AM
Quite honestly...... I'm looking forward to it! :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin:
You and I both!
The tire trash talk is totally off topic for me. I don't have a deal right now so I am neutral! All I wanna know is Pirelli's great contingency program from last year is still in place or if that money is now gone due to the cost of the spec class....get it??
aside from that I still say small grids.....qualifying cuts EVERYONES practice time( unless it's based off practice times) and a schedule that already requires AM and EX combined races some weekends.
Jason F I know how much you hate combining AM and EX in the other races as you have been very outspoken about it in the past.....are you willing to put up with that if necessary to add a class with no competition in it for you?
I'm sure it'll all get worked out....just more questions thananswers at this point.....no big deal!
Quote from: TommyG on December 06, 2009, 01:06:00 AM
Quote from: TommyG on December 06, 2009, 01:06:00 AM
Jason F I know how much you hate combining AM and EX in the other races as you have been very outspoken about it in the past.....are you willing to put up with that if necessary to add a class with no competition in it for you?
I'm sure Matt Hall will be there to add a little competition...
I am just glad we still have racing this year. After last years grids, at the tracks that usually pay CCS's bills, I was not expecting to even have a series this year.
I think we should be thankful to have a place to race and even more thankful for continued manufacturer support.
To those worried about contingency: Really? I would think Pirelli is much wiser than to do something like sponsor one class in lieu of paying out contingency for all the others. The few riders they may switch over to loyal customers for one class would not outweigh the riders in ALL the other classes who might switch to a brand that's paying. I'd be pretty shocked if there were none.
Michelin gave out a lot of money last year at special events and was still pretty generous at times with contingency so I don't see gloom and doom for Pirelli contingency.
Quote from: truckstop on December 06, 2009, 11:43:10 AM
To those worried about contingency: Really? I would think Pirelli is much wiser than to do something like sponsor one class in lieu of paying out contingency for all the others. The few riders they may switch over to loyal customers for one class would not outweigh the riders in ALL the other classes who might switch to a brand that's paying. I'd be pretty shocked if there were none.
Michelin gave out a lot of money last year at special events and was still pretty generous at times with contingency so I don't see gloom and doom for Pirelli contingency.
Agreed.
All the regular tire suppliers other than Dunlop have some space in their budgets from not supporting any teams/riders in the AMA. It's very reasonable for them to look to develop more opportunities in the buying club community of racers compared to the open hands people...for those that know the racers handshake... LOL!
Quote from: TommyG on December 06, 2009, 01:06:00 AM
The tire trash talk is totally off topic for me. I don't have a deal right now so I am neutral! All I wanna know is Pirelli's great contingency program from last year is still in place or if that money is now gone due to the cost of the spec class....get it??
aside from that I still say small grids.....qualifying cuts EVERYONES practice time( unless it's based off practice times) and a schedule that already requires AM and EX combined races some weekends.
Jason F I know how much you hate combining AM and EX in the other races as you have been very outspoken about it in the past.....are you willing to put up with that if necessary to add a class with no competition in it for you?
I'm sure it'll all get worked out....just more questions thananswers at this point.....no big deal!
Tommy, no trash talk here. I'm just trying to put in perpecttive other ways to look at it. Maybe point out some positive things about this class. It seemed a bit of trash talking about the class from riders who use other brand tires.
Last I heard, Pirelli is still paying in their other classes that they paid last season plus this other class.
Yes I agree that I am vocal about the whole combining AM/EX classes where it is unsafe. I pointed it out a couple times in riders meetings about combining more classes on Sunday morning (due to lower than expected turn outs) than were already combined on the schedule.
CCS combines races like EX/AM Light weight classes because the grids are very small like 4-10 in each class.
But taking 10-15 Amatuers & 10-15 experts and combining them is dangerous. Especially when they let us go to turn 2-3 before letting the amatuers take off. Now given that we are about 20 seconds a lap faster than someone who just got their license on Saturday plus we are already in turn 2-3 we lap them on the 3rd lap! We all have had some close call to taking out a new rider & ourselves.
It isn't fair to anyone. If feel bad for the amatuers when we do this also because they are now scared shitless because they are waiting for more riders to blow by them.
So I say come up with a 15% rule from the fastest riders qualifying times from to see who can run this race. Nothing crazy. Just keep the very slow riders off the track for this one race but let both Amatuer & Experts participate. There is no seperation between them in their finshes. It could also be a class where the Amatuers can try to showcase themselves. Plus there will be more entries for the class.
Maybe for whoever doesn't qualify for this race will get half their entry back or something like that.
The only reason I come up with this is because like some say they will not be running the class because of tire contract issues so they believe that the turn out will be low. Well if you can do within 15% your in. So at Blackhawk lets say I qualify at a 1:09 or 1:10 that puts qualifiying at 1:19.3. Sounds fair to me. There are plenty of experts riding within that time along with Amatuers also.
So say the slowest is running average of a 1:20 & the fastest is a 1:10. 10 second separation. 12 lap race? 1:20 seconds. So basically it might turn into a shortened Expert GTU race.
Also when have we EVER had a problem at Blackhawk with not getting races done in time. I'm packed an left by 5:00 nearly ever Sunday.
as an amateur, i would definitely consider running that race for the experience :D as long as there's a max. qualifying limit, i don't see the problem and it'll help fill the grids...
Quote from: Greeny on December 08, 2009, 04:50:44 PM
as an amateur, i would definitely consider running that race for the experience :D as long as there's a max. qualifying limit, i don't see the problem and it'll help fill the grids...
It's an expert only race
i was responding to jason's suggestion
Gotcha
that sounds like a good idea to make the grids bigger therefore the purses bigger since it isnt a points paying class and is gridded by qualifying anyway. as long as there is a cutoff percentage
thats a sound idea... when would qualifying be held? day before? day of? is there time in either schedule?
Quote from: J Farrell / Speed Tech Motorsp on December 06, 2009, 06:07:35 PM
So say the slowest is running average of a 1:20 & the fastest is a 1:10. 10 second separation. 12 lap race? 1:20 seconds. So basically it might turn into a shortened Expert GTU race.
Minor correction to Jason's post. 10 second differential per lap x 12 laps equals 120 seconds ( 2 minutes) not 1 minute and 20 seconds. 40 second difference gets more of the lappers lapping more of the lappees. :biggrin:
Trouble maker.
Can't you find anything better to do than lurk the CCS board looking for poor inocent racers to pummel.
Meters, feet..... it's all the same! :biggrin:
I have not yet begun to pummel! :ass:
Ooopppsss.... My bad!
Well I think we are seeing some good feedback to running amatuers also with a cutoff time. After realistically thinking about it I'm thinking more on the lines of 112%?
It's up to Pirelli to decide that not CCS. Its Pirelli's class so its their decision. Time to let Pirelli know if your interested in running this class also if we can make a change in it before its too late.
i'd think even 110% or less is reasonable - then it would basically take 10 laps for the leaders to catch the back markers. this would put the cutoff at around 1:17, and according to the sept 25-27 MW SS results, this is a number that about half the amateurs and every expert would be able to hit.
Quote from: Burt Munro on December 09, 2009, 01:47:26 AM
Meters, feet..... it's all the same! :biggrin:
I have not yet begun to pummel! :ass:
"Hello, My name is Rick and I am a professional shit disturber!" :biggrin:
Sounds like a great idea. I for one am thankful that Pirelli is stepping up with a class structure such as this. It's ironic that as racers we complain about lack of payout or how screwed up the rules may be, but when someone comes up with an idea there are many that bash it. DMG seems to be faultering-Kudos to CCS for doing what they are doing.
For me I don't race on Pirelli. I have alsways raced on Bridgestone becuse it made the most sense for me. In 2009 Michelin stepped up their program and got me to use their brand. 2010 may be the year that I am on Pirelli even if it is just to run this class. It seems that this class may give me a chance with the Ducati 748. This class seems much like the Unlimited GP shootout except it is for the 600 or equivalent bike.
I like.
Mark
jeez mark you want me to find more hp ?
Yup- this has potential to be a really good show.
I also think it would be wise to allow Am's in to the show, provided they have the speed.
I say if you are an Am and want into the show and are fast enough, then request to become an Ex and get out there and race.
And yes Marc, more HP will be needed unless mid-pack is good enough for our program.
Mark
Quote from: skidMARK on December 12, 2009, 12:24:54 PM
I say if you are an Am and want into the show and are fast enough, then request to become an Ex and get out there and race.
That's a good idea.
This is a great place to view thoughts on the CCS side. I started a thread at diabloracer.com to get direct feedback and answers from the Pirelli distribution network. http://www.diabloracer.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=169 (http://www.diabloracer.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=169)
I didnt read all of the post and probably wont be racing next year since i wont be healed from my injuries I substained at the michelin challenge race at barber in oct, but i think its a great idea what they are trying to do with this series as long as you can collect the tire contigency to from pirelli. I bitched about the contigency last year when riders just were not showing up to grid if it was raining or sprinkiling. we lost alot of $$ because of it. so having a dollar paying race is great as long as riders grid.
It's a good and innovative idea. Give them some credit. If it works, great. If not, then I'm sure it'll change as needed.