LW classes!

Started by MUZ720, October 23, 2006, 11:54:09 AM

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MUZ720

Could we return the LW classes to LW machines??
Not that I am bitchin but being blow'n away by 1200cc BMWS and 1000cc Duc's on the banking at Daytona I think we need to rethink why these bikes are in LW??  And Why are older 600's let into LW 40 anyway when they are not in any other classes??? Do we need to have multi bikes one for each class????  seems to me there needs a review of this!
  :whine:

roadracer162

This is a debate that will go on until the end of time. The rider of one make of bike will argue the point of one bike being slower or another having an advantage. The answer I have received is in the form of advice and in the short form, "buy a bike that is competitive for the class you wish to run".

Personally I like having a wide array of bikes racing against each other. It is a lot of fun to race my '91 FZR600 in the Thunderbike class against the likes of Unlimited Buells, Superbike SV650, Ducati 1000, older GSXR750 and ZX7Rs. The FZR is definately the underdog to many of these bikes and the sudden twist of it is that these same bikes are allowed in the LW classes.

The best bet is to have bikes with similar performance numbers run in the same class. As many have pointed out, each year or couple of years there is a bike tat comes in and takes over the LW class. Let's see...EX500, FZR400, Hawk 650, SV650. Does that sound about right? And now the Ducati 1000, and maybe even the BMW. Oh throw in the Buell in there somewhere. The driving force to the SV650 staying the weapon of choice I think has been the price. It is the best budget racer.

I do love riding the RS125, but my old '94 is a little down on performace as compared to the new stuff.
Mark Tenn
CCS Ex #22
Mark Tenn Motorsports, Michelin tire guy in Florida.

George_Linhart

What exactly is a LW bike?  Under the rules of this organization a 1000 Duc, a 1200 Buel and 1200 BMW are exactly that.

Rules are rules, either accept it or start your own race organization with a class structure you think is better..  If you don't like the class find one you like more.  How about MW or perhaps Ultra LW?

I don't know what axe you have to grind but if you have an unreasonable emotional attachment to a particular bike that isn't competitive, that is your choice to race said bike. I recomend you read the rules and get what you think is most competitive, set it up right and ride the wheels off the bike!

George

Racingxtc7

Funny, the Triumph 675 sure was "performance indexed" out of lightweight. What do you have to say to everyone who went out and bought triumph 675's to race in lightweight?

MUZ720

George,
I understand the rules as they are and have no axe to grind. 
But LW bikes are not 1000cc, 1200cc machines!   
  SV650s , FZRs , Hawks, EXs or TZ125s these in my opinion are LW bikes!  I race an lightly moded SV 650 at the moment.
And I feel like saying FU  :finger: cause well you have a tude like you read about!! So stick it!
This forum as I understand it is a place to ask questions and give opinions (Guess you gave me yours) and I do think the rules as they are written right now are not fair. So i am asking the powers to be to have a look at this.
  We now have a Ultra lightweight class maybe we need a  LG. LW class??  Or better yet how about a Air Cooled Twins LW Class!  :thumb:   

George_Linhart

Why is it that SV riders always complain about any bike other than an SV allowed into "their" class?  What is it that makes a 4 valve, liquid cooled V-Twin a LW bike and an air-cooled 2 valve V-twin or boxer twin not a LW bike?  Is it absolute weight?  Engine displacement?  HP output?    If you really want to argue this I would say that that an SV650 probably isn't a "true" light weight bike either.

Back in the day this was the class for FZR400's, GS 500's and Hawk 650's.  The twin displacement rule was pretty much set around the Honda Hawk because of the Hawk was a 3 valve V-twin that was roughly comparable to the FZR400's.  Fast forward to the introduction of the SV - it dominated.  The FZR and Hawk riders complained because the SV had a more modern 4 valve head, lots more HP and a lot of potential for improvement and they didn't think it was a Lightweight Bike.  Everyone was told that this was natural progression and that they needed to dump their old, outdated bikes and should buy an SV if they want to win.  Now that a few other bikes are being competitive SV riders are crying foul...  I guess you don't see the humor because its a bit too close to home.

I am sick and tired of certain SV riders bitching and whining that their bikes aren't competitive.  Certain SVs ridden by the better riders are still at the top of the podium consistently.  Other bikes being in the mix is a good thing - it makes it interesting.

By the way deadline for submitting rules suggestions for 2007 ended on 01OCT06.  If you would have looked all of 7 posts earlier in this same section you would have realized this.  Another little bit of information - rule change requests need to be made directly to CCS via letter or emai (Links and information are on their "official" website which is www.ccsracing.com) this is just a forum for racers and fans, albeit several of the "powers" do occasionally post up and/or lurk here.

Sorry you don't like my attitude, I'll try to do better next time.  :rollseyes:

George

SVbadguy

Lightweights have generally been the bikes that are bought by people new to motorcycling in general.  In the past those were the FZR400, GS500, EX500 and Hawks.   These days the modern 'beginner' sportbikes are SV650s, EX250/500s and now the Ninja 650.  I don't see how liter bikes fit into it.  By the same logic liter twins are allowed in LW I should be able to race my VFR750 in LW classes too. I don't see that happening.
Mid-Atlantic Region 
MARRC Exec Committee at-large & Radio Committee Chair

CounterSteerer

Quote from: MUZ720 on October 23, 2006, 11:54:09 AM
Could we return the LW classes to LW machines??
Not that I am bitchin but being blow'n away by 1200cc BMWS and 1000cc Duc's on the banking at Daytona I think we need to rethink why these bikes are in LW??  And Why are older 600's let into LW 40 anyway when they are not in any other classes??? Do we need to have multi bikes one for each class????  seems to me there needs a review of this!
  :whine:

What was your number and what races did you run at Daytona?
CCS FL, ASRA
Jason Edmonds

251am

Quote from: SVbadguy on October 23, 2006, 03:46:42 PM
  By the same logic liter twins are allowed in LW I should be able to race my VFR750 in LW classes too. I don't see that happening.

  Err, logic? Is your VFR air cooled or liquid? Aren't VFR's V-4s?

George_Linhart

QuoteLightweights have generally been the bikes that are bought by people new to motorcycling in general. 

I guess that middleweights are the "new" a lightweight bike by this description.  Take a look at the distribution numbers and there are more 600 cc sportbikes sold to new riders than anything else.  A lot of newbies also buy GSXR 1000's - should we have these considered as LW bikes too?

The only point I am making is that it seems that SV riders think Lightweight bikes are the sole teritory of SVs and cry foul at any other bike in the class that can win.  WERA's LW SS class is basically a spec SV series.  Not a bad idea if that is what you want.  F2 allows a few other makes in under limited rules.  SVs still do very well.  CCS LW and Thunderbike seem to be advantaging the Buels (based on results and looking at annual standings) but SVs still do well.  A handfull of Ducatis and a single BMW are out there with good showings.

From a technology and capability standpoint I still think the SV has the upper hand - it just takes a $2,300 falion crank to replace the POS stock unit and stay together at what the engine is capable of putting out.  It will be interesting to see what can be done with the new dual spark SV heads - the compression should be able to be bumped significantly with a lot more HP and torque as a result (if the crank stays together).  Buels have become more reliable and beter out of the box and are giving a lot of "stock" SVs a run.  Ducatis seem to be very good out of the box and there are still a lot of highly competitive, heavily modified 900SS bikes out there that can give any of the above a run for the money.  Ducati's 1000 DS engine in its stock form took a lot of cues from the modifications being done to the 900SS and it shows with great capabilities off the showroom floor.

You just can't say that SVs are the only LW bike.  They had a good run - SV riders either need to put up or shut up now that there is competition.

George

SVbadguy

Quote from: 251am on October 24, 2006, 06:14:50 PM
  Err, logic? Is your VFR air cooled or liquid? Aren't VFR's V-4s?

90 horsepower and 500lbs.  That's not fair?
Mid-Atlantic Region 
MARRC Exec Committee at-large & Radio Committee Chair

ahastings

I guess Moto-ST got it wrong when they put the BMW 1200 and Buell 1200 in the 118 hp class. I don't think the Ducati or Buells are much of an advantage over the SV 650 hp wise but the new BMW sure is, in fact it is in the same league with the SV 1000. Fortunately hardly anybody can afford to race a BMW .
Arnie
A&M Motorsports
Mid-Atlantic VP Fuel Vendor

badmonkey

There's no replacement for displacement. Bikes with almost twice the cc's of an sv will always win if riders are equal, and put those same bikes at Daytona and you don't even have to be able to ride to dominate. If you can't win, sell your sv, get a 2nd mortage on your house and go out and buy a buell ducati or bmw just to win a little piece of wood. Nah I'll just build a cheater motor....... :ahhh: :ahhh: :ahhh:
Do you want to touch my Monkey?

George_Linhart

QuoteThere's no replacement for displacement. Bikes with almost twice the cc's of an sv will always win if riders are equal, and put those same bikes at Daytona and you don't even have to be able to ride to dominate. If you can't win, sell your sv, get a 2nd mortage on your house and go out and buy a buell ducati or bmw just to win a little piece of wood. Nah I'll just build a cheater motor.......   

Isn't this the same argument FZR400 riders made in the early years of the SV dominance of a series that used to be very competitive with the "old" equipment?

Here is what i say - just run in superbike and its not a cheater motor so you can quit the complaining.  There is an advantage to liquid cooling and 4 valve heads that don't get reflected in pure displacement.  The SV is way more modern and has a lot more technology than the Ducati, Buelll or BMW - each of these engine designs are at least 20 years old and really fits more in a vintage class if you want displacement parity.  From a pure capability standpoint an SV pushed out to SB rules can more than hold its (but you really have to replace that weak crank).  On a SS platform, you are somewhat correct - in order to keep the price point on the SV where it is Suzuki put cheap forks, suspension & brakes on the bike and left the engine devloping a lot less power than it could in order to use a weak (but inexpensive) crank.

A lot of guys in the past 2 years talked about how fast Ed's platform was and how hard it was to even stay in his draft - you could build something just as competitive with enough time and moeny.  OK, the BMW is new (but very few are racing anyway) but nothing else had changed...  If the BMW itself is so much better, I guess we will be seeing a lot more on the grid next year.  Personally you couldn't pay me to try and race at speed on the heavy and ill-handling lump of german engineering called a BMW!

251am

Quote from: SVbadguy on October 24, 2006, 08:48:23 PM
90 horsepower and 500lbs.  That's not fair?

Liquid cooled four cylinder are the main considerations, I believe.

R1200S might have 95 HP at the wheel. 25% of quoted OEM HP is lost on BMW shaft drive-BMW usually ALWAYS quotes HP from their crank. Torque is where it's at!!


DS SV, eh? Hmmmmm...

Brad

I think the biggest issue comes from LWSS riders. I think a Duc1000 is a stretch for LWSS and I race one!! At 86-90hp in stock trim its got a big advantage over a "ss built" SV of 6-10hp...The >new< 1200 BMW is at 115 in stock form, far better than the original Boxer Cup 1100.......I just don't get why people(SV guys in particular) are being slammed as whiners, because certain machines have simply outgrown the existing class structure, when they ask for a change...I would say limit big cc air cooled twins to SS trim in LW sbk/gp and allow sbk's in T-bike.

Brad

Quote from: 251am on October 25, 2006, 10:12:56 PM


R1200S might have 95 HP at the wheel. 25% of quoted OEM HP is lost on BMW shaft drive-BMW usually ALWAYS quotes HP from their crank. Torque is where it's at!!


DS SV, eh? Hmmmmm...

Check post race ASRA Tbike results on a Factory Pro dyno..Add about 15% to get a dynojet #...Those are rear wheel #'s btw.

PJ

Quote from: Brad on October 25, 2006, 10:17:17 PM
Check post race ASRA Tbike results on a Factory Pro dyno..Add about 15% to get a dynojet #...Those are rear wheel #'s btw.

Yes, but Thunderbike allows much more modification than the LW classes. Most of the Buells in ASRA Thunderbike are larger than 1200cc in displacement, i.e. illegal for any LW class.
Paul James
AMA Pro XR1200 #70
www.facebook.com/jamesgangracing
www.twitter.com/jamesgangracing

Brad

Quote from: PJ on October 25, 2006, 10:29:43 PM
Yes, but Thunderbike allows much more modification than the LW classes. Most of the Buells in ASRA Thunderbike are larger than 1200cc in displacement, i.e. illegal for any LW class.

Correct, I was pointing out to 251 that his hp # for the new R12 is about 20 short though..As the R1200 is being raced in -all- of the LW classes(where highly modded Buells with similar power cannot) as well as Tbike.

cbr-racer

F2's should run LW classes too :cheers:
Bill (whisky) http://www.sponsorhouse.com/members/whisky
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ahastings

Quote from: 251am on October 25, 2006, 10:12:56 PM
Liquid cooled four cylinder are the main considerations, I believe.

R1200S might have 95 HP at the wheel. 25% of quoted OEM HP is lost on BMW shaft drive-BMW usually ALWAYS quotes HP from their crank. Torque is where it's at!!


DS SV, eh? Hmmmmm...
Wrong- Sport rider just did a shootout of The new BMW R1200s VS the SV 1000 and ran them both on the dyno. The BMW made 112 HP bone stock and the SV 1000 made 111 HP at the rear wheel. I was surprised myself, I knew that BMW was fast just didn't realize it made that much power. They also liked the handling better than the SV 1000.
Arnie
A&M Motorsports
Mid-Atlantic VP Fuel Vendor

Ducati23

Sounds like we need some other twins classes.  A class for BMW1200's, Ducati aircooled twins up to 1100 and Ducati 749's and other similar machines. The SV is still a great bike, I race one along with my Ducati's, but it doesn't do well when pushed above 90 hp. They blow up, spin bearings and other bad things. The SV and Ninja 650 should be LW class machines, with these others in "Middleweight" twins leaving the big stuff for "Supertwins" and "Heavyweight" twins classes. 

I sent some rules change requests to Kevin prior to the cut off date. Will it be considered? Who knows.

Clayton
#23 Ex GP
DUCATI Omaha
CCS/ASRA #23
GP SuperTwins Champion 2007 2008
Ducati 848

clutch

Hey George, no one is whining.  No rider at Daytona had a shot at beating that BMW in LWSS.  The BMW theory was just proven in the post that Arnie put up.  It is a Super Twin!!

Duc-Hunter

I've come across an abomination I was interested in trying to run LW or ULW with and couldn't find anything stating if it would be legal,... I'm assuming it wouldn't be but I thought I'd ask here:

Would a Derbi RS50 with  CR250 motor stuffed inside be legal? It's 2 stroke air cooled so I guess the motor would be okay but do the motor & frame have to be from the same manufacturer?

Let the flaming of the n00b commence... :)

EX_#76

Quote from: Duc-Hunter on October 27, 2006, 11:07:02 AM
I've come across an abomination I was interested in trying to run LW or ULW with and couldn't find anything stating if it would be legal,... I'm assuming it wouldn't be but I thought I'd ask here:

Would a Derbi RS50 with  CR250 motor stuffed inside be legal? It's 2 stroke air cooled so I guess the motor would be okay but do the motor & frame have to be from the same manufacturer?

Let the flaming of the n00b commence... :)

GTL and GP are unrestricted as long as displacement limits and section 5 regulations are followed.  I think there is a clause in section 5 about minumum tire diameter that would impact a project like that.
Guy Bartz
MW EX #76
Mass Reduction LLC Home of the Grip Doctor

Duc-Hunter

It has 17" wheels. It's comparable to an Aprilia RS 50, not a pocket bike sized machine. I was thinking of LW & ULW Superbike because of Section 6.3.1.A "single cylinder motorcycles may use any frame or engine" and it isn't a purpose built GP machine like the RS125, it's more of a backyard creation. But yeah I guess worst case I could at least run the GT classes.... thanks