Ultralight Thunderbike Displacement?

Started by britx303, September 02, 2015, 04:32:31 PM

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britx303

Dont forget to add the rule that if the rider is over 200lbs. then he/she is allowed to run an R3 :whine: :biggrin:

Eric Kelcher

Quote from: Zaph on October 29, 2016, 11:02:23 AM
Is it Spec Class Racing?  That's all I can find.  Using my wife's Facebook login because I refuse to get on it, lol.

The original post from 2012 mentions a gentleman's agreement.  There sure as hell isn't one of those these days.  The current CCS rule set is so far away from spec class racing that it's not funny.

If I had my way, the CCS would only have 2 rules:  Your bike must make no more than a maximum hp number and weigh no less than a minimum weight.  That's it.  Dynos and scales brought to every race day.  If we did that, everyone could compete.  R3's, RC390's, N300's and even some CBR250's could be souped up to run.  Every machine could be configured to fit in the class just right.  None of us would need to blow money on MR12, except maybe the guys running a CBR250.  It would become a rider's race instead of a builder's race and it would reel in out of control racing costs.   :thumb:   Bruce I'm thinking you wouldn't be a fan of that with your 50 hp 250, lol.

Dyno controlled classes have 2 big problems.
With FI systems you can load a temporary map, or toggle to different maps Ie shut off ignition click a sequence in dash etc and default map is now active; difficult to enforce.
Dyno costs after the intial investment there is transportation and operator costs.  Figure close to $1000 per entry to cover costs. That is one big reason Dyno controlled races went away in the ASRA series when Dyno sponsor went away.

Add in different power delivery and 40 hp can be less than 30 hp ?!??
Bike that makes sharp power curve that raises from 20 to 40 from 8000-9000 rpm then redlines at 10,000 has less useable power than a bike that makes 30 hp from 6000-10,000 rpm. Straight line speed vs acceleration balancing act.
Eric Kelcher
ASRA/CCS Director of Competition

britx303


Zaph

Quote from: britx303 on October 29, 2016, 11:09:58 AM
Dont forget to add the rule that if the rider is over 200lbs. then he/she is allowed to run an R3 :whine: :biggrin:

Hell yeah, us clydesdales need special considerations.    But seriously, nah and then I would have all the encouragement I need to drop 20 lbs.   :thumb:

Quote from: Eric Kelcher on October 29, 2016, 11:40:25 AM
Dyno controlled classes have 2 big problems.
With FI systems you can load a temporary map, or toggle to different maps Ie shut off ignition click a sequence in dash etc and default map is now active; difficult to enforce.
Dyno costs after the intial investment there is transportation and operator costs.  Figure close to $1000 per entry to cover costs. That is one big reason Dyno controlled races went away in the ASRA series when Dyno sponsor went away.

Add in different power delivery and 40 hp can be less than 30 hp ?!??
Bike that makes sharp power curve that raises from 20 to 40 from 8000-9000 rpm then redlines at 10,000 has less useable power than a bike that makes 30 hp from 6000-10,000 rpm. Straight line speed vs acceleration balancing act.

It's human nature to resist change but bettering ourselves or our organization isn't going to happen without it.  Right now ultralight in CCS is a mess. It has the potential to be the most popular class ever, even more so than 600 supersport, but that isn't going to happen until it's made easy and fair for multiple different bikes to compete, and we reel in the outrageous costs of racing caused by the current open rule set that doesn't limit what people can do.  Sure, keep one class around for the builders to show what they can do.  Then we can see a few 50 hp ninja 250's race. (and need an immediate engine rebuild after)  But most people want to see what the riders can do when all the bikes are close in performance.

Look at the rules page of Spec Class Racing.  http://specclassracing.com/bike-spec/  Notice how they list what you CAN do, not just what you can't do. I'm not affiliated with these guys, I just like they way they do things.  If they were up here in the midwest, I'd be all over it and ultralight racing would explode in popularity.

Immediate post race scrutineering for winners can include a check for anyone who has 2 wires coming out of the map switch port on their fuel controller.  If you want to be thorough, also check the diagnostics plug and wire loom for extra wires, since many bikes, even the ninja 300 can switch 2 maps internally in their own ECU.

The difficulties of getting a dyno to the races are understandable.  However, many shops would be willing to offer certification services.  In fact they would love it as it would bring them lots of extra tuning business.  The only limitation has to be that race shops can not certify the bikes of riders they sponsor.  That would help rule out obvious favoritism.  Make up a standard form with a return envelope, and it can be signed by the tuner, dyno chart included and sent directly back to CCS without touching the rider's hands.  Want to really cut down on cheating? Have the certifying tuner send the final map to CCS, which can be compared to what the bike is running via file checksum.

Sure, the differing shapes of hp curves would favor torque heavy bikes.  But it would still be pretty close, and it's still the best hope of bringing all these ultralights together.

I'm not trying to tell the CCS how to do things, just offering up some ideas that I think could benefit many racers and make things more fun.  Thanks for reading.

bruce71198

Quote from: Zaph on October 29, 2016, 11:02:23 AM
   Bruce I'm thinking you wouldn't be a fan of that with your 50 hp 250, lol.

  Actually I would be a big fan of a spec class! I was a proponent of it when CCS first introduced it and was hugely disappointed when they came out with it as a Thunderbike class! Moto America proved it's viability with the KTM390 cup program, my son ran the first 2 seasons and enjoyed it immensely. I know and have raced with the Spec Class Racing guys down in Florida on many occasions and their program is highly functional with the "gentlemen's agreement".
   When Jody started racing, the 250 class had just been introduced, he and I both had box stock bikes as we ran WERA ESS as well as CCS. To put things into perspective He ran 1:21-22 on his ninja 250, I think my best on a stocker was in the upper 22 range, and my suspension has improved in the last couple seasons so i'm sure I could improve on that, on his KTM390 he ran consistant 21's and then 20's when he tested suspension for KTM. He and I didn't lose many races anywhere we went unless it was to each other. When he stopped racing his 250 I was left with not much competition so I started messing with my engine, I found it easy to make more power and am, at this point, just out having fun. If it came down to it I would go back to stock and still be winning races. As a matter of fact I will build a class legal bike for next season and I believe the results will be the same. Anyway, back to perspective, my "built bike" (which consequently has all Kawasaki parts in it aside from the head gasket and cylinders) I turned a low 19 on with Drew hot on my tail on his 300 which I know for a fact is a SS build. Theres also another 50HP 300 out there with stock bore and stroke.

dmj_88

#65
Quote from: Zaph on October 29, 2016, 02:51:40 PM
Hell yeah, us clydesdales need special considerations.    But seriously, nah and then I would have all the encouragement I need to drop 20 lbs.   :thumb:

It's human nature to resist change but bettering ourselves or our organization isn't going to happen without it.  Right now ultralight in CCS is a mess. It has the potential to be the most popular class ever, even more so than 600 supersport, but that isn't going to happen until it's made easy and fair for multiple different bikes to compete, and we reel in the outrageous costs of racing caused by the current open rule set that doesn't limit what people can do.  Sure, keep one class around for the builders to show what they can do.  Then we can see a few 50 hp ninja 250's race. (and need an immediate engine rebuild after)  But most people want to see what the riders can do when all the bikes are close in performance.

Look at the rules page of Spec Class Racing.  http://specclassracing.com/bike-spec/  Notice how they list what you CAN do, not just what you can't do. I'm not affiliated with these guys, I just like they way they do things.  If they were up here in the midwest, I'd be all over it and ultralight racing would explode in popularity.

Immediate post race scrutineering for winners can include a check for anyone who has 2 wires coming out of the map switch port on their fuel controller.  If you want to be thorough, also check the diagnostics plug and wire loom for extra wires, since many bikes, even the ninja 300 can switch 2 maps internally in their own ECU.

The difficulties of getting a dyno to the races are understandable.  However, many shops would be willing to offer certification services.  In fact they would love it as it would bring them lots of extra tuning business.  The only limitation has to be that race shops can not certify the bikes of riders they sponsor.  That would help rule out obvious favoritism.  Make up a standard form with a return envelope, and it can be signed by the tuner, dyno chart included and sent directly back to CCS without touching the rider's hands.  Want to really cut down on cheating? Have the certifying tuner send the final map to CCS, which can be compared to what the bike is running via file checksum.

Sure, the differing shapes of hp curves would favor torque heavy bikes.  But it would still be pretty close, and it's still the best hope of bringing all these ultralights together.

I'm not trying to tell the CCS how to do things, just offering up some ideas that I think could benefit many racers and make things more fun.  Thanks for reading.


I typed a LONG response to the wishful thinking in this post. Instead I'll attempt to be concise.


No dynos as a regulatory measure, it doesn't work, and the ccs staff is already stretched too thin to check fuel maps, wires, ECUs, etc. This is club racing, keep that in perspective.


The little bike class is still the cheapest to run (I've run them all) I have a supersport Ninja 300 that has proven to be EXTREMELY cheap to build and operate. Do not equate a level of modification with expense. Just because someone can build a powerful ninja "250" does not mean they put a lot of money into it, or require you to either. Rather a skilled mechanic spent their time using inexpensive (OEM) parts with talent and knowledge to get a working package after a lot of trial and error.


Class structure actually works pretty well, but people like to complain...
The way I see it:
Minimal modifications that all bikes can play = 500SS
Lots of modifications that all bikes can play = moto3
ULTB and ULGT require no changes. It allows someone to build a 300 to "race up" in Moto3 or leave it supersport spec and improve as a rider chasing down the faster bikes. The ninja 300 is by far the most popular "little bike" and has proven to be exceedingly reliable. I think the grids reflect that you can bring out a bike  with any level of modification with a rider of any talent level and generally have someone to race with. It might not be for the win but there is usually a good race for everyone in the field. Additionally, I only know of 4 bikes taking advantage of Thunderbike rules (building anything more than Supersport) and most of them don't even race with CCS. The majority of the N250s and 300s on the grid meet SS spec.


Lastly,  If you think the people at the pointy end of the class are there because they are on "built" bikes I would wager that those same riders on stock bikes with only race rubber/plastics would still be fighting for the win. They are not winning because of what bike they are on, they are winning because they are faster riders.

Super Dave

Quote from: Zaph on October 29, 2016, 11:02:23 AM
If I had my way, the CCS would only have 2 rules:  Your bike must make no more than a maximum hp number and weigh no less than a minimum weight.  That's it.  Dynos and scales brought to every race day.  If we did that, everyone could compete.  R3's, RC390's, N300's and even some CBR250's could be souped up to run.  Every machine could be configured to fit in the class just right.  None of us would need to blow money on MR12, except maybe the guys running a CBR250.  It would become a rider's race instead of a builder's race and it would reel in out of control racing costs.   :thumb:   Bruce I'm thinking you wouldn't be a fan of that with your 50 hp 250, lol.
Cost of dyno, cost of transportation.  Sure, we can talk about sponsors willing to do that because one can claim they'd make so much money sponsoring the series, but it hasn't worked in the past. 

And then, you'd need to use that dyno when you tuned your bike.

And then you'd have to have tech inspectors that were technical enough to know that some ECM's allow someone to turn the kill switch off twice to use the "dyno map"...because that stuff already existed years and years ago. 

HP to weigh ratio racing is available, but it does involve four wheels.  Still expensive.
Super Dave

Super Dave

Quote from: bruce71198 on October 29, 2016, 05:56:20 PM
  Actually I would be a big fan of a spec class! I was a proponent of it when CCS first introduced it and was hugely disappointed when they came out with it as a Thunderbike class! Moto America proved it's viability with the KTM390 cup program, my son ran the first 2 seasons and enjoyed it immensely. I know and have raced with the Spec Class Racing guys down in Florida on many occasions and their program is highly functional with the "gentlemen's agreement".
   When Jody started racing, the 250 class had just been introduced, he and I both had box stock bikes as we ran WERA ESS as well as CCS. To put things into perspective He ran 1:21-22 on his ninja 250, I think my best on a stocker was in the upper 22 range, and my suspension has improved in the last couple seasons so i'm sure I could improve on that, on his KTM390 he ran consistant 21's and then 20's when he tested suspension for KTM. He and I didn't lose many races anywhere we went unless it was to each other. When he stopped racing his 250 I was left with not much competition so I started messing with my engine, I found it easy to make more power and am, at this point, just out having fun. If it came down to it I would go back to stock and still be winning races. As a matter of fact I will build a class legal bike for next season and I believe the results will be the same. Anyway, back to perspective, my "built bike" (which consequently has all Kawasaki parts in it aside from the head gasket and cylinders) I turned a low 19 on with Drew hot on my tail on his 300 which I know for a fact is a SS build. Theres also another 50HP 300 out there with stock bore and stroke.
Love this statement, Bruce.
Super Dave

Zaph

Quote from: dmj_88 on October 31, 2016, 08:42:50 PMLastly,  If you think the people at the pointy end of the class are there because they are on "built" bikes I would wager that those same riders on stock bikes with only race rubber/plastics would still be fighting for the win. They are not winning because of what bike they are on, they are winning because they are faster riders.

Let's clarify.  The people at the pointy end are there because they are white plate experts.  All the yellow plates like me are in the back, and none of us will ever get on the podium.   I'm just there for the battles and because I love the small bikes. (mostly I like not spending $1600 a year on tires, hahah)

The ultralight class isn't going to get more racers under the current rule structure.  But nobody seems to be willing to do anything about it.  Does anyone have any ideas besides "let's not change anything?"

Hey, I'm just curious, for any of you guys in the midwest:  If a spec 300 class showed up to be run at kart tracks such as USAIR and the Road America Motorplex, how many of you would get in if the rules were based on this?




Capitalview

Quote from: bruce71198 on October 29, 2016, 05:56:20 PM
  If it came down to it I would go back to stock and still be winning races. As a matter of fact I will build a class legal bike for next season and I believe the results will be the same. Anyway, back to perspective, my "built bike" (which consequently has all Kawasaki parts in it aside from the head gasket and cylinders) I turned a low 19 on with Drew hot on my tail on his 300 which I know for a fact is a SS build. Theres also another 50HP 300 out there with stock bore and stroke.

Wait, so earlier on you said the R3 and RC390 should have to run Supersport rules.  Yet you have a "250" that is making 50HP?  How is that fair?  So I get to ride around with 40 hp, and supersport rules while you can do pretty much anything to your Ninja 250 or 300 in order to make 50hp and do other weight loss mods? 

Sounds like there is absolutely no reason the KTM and R3 shouldn't be allowed in the UL class.

dmj_88

#70
Quote from: Zaph on October 31, 2016, 10:56:39 PM
Let's clarify.  The people at the pointy end are there because they are white plate experts.  All the yellow plates like me are in the back, and none of us will ever get on the podium.   I'm just there for the battles and because I love the small bikes. (mostly I like not spending $1600 a year on tires, hahah)

The ultralight class isn't going to get more racers under the current rule structure.  But nobody seems to be willing to do anything about it.  Does anyone have any ideas besides "let's not change anything?"

Hey, I'm just curious, for any of you guys in the midwest:  If a spec 300 class showed up to be run at kart tracks such as USAIR and the Road America Motorplex, how many of you would get in if the rules were based on this?


Stop posting inaccurate information, please! People at the pointy end are not there because they are experts, they are there because they are faster riders! A yellow plate WON the ULTB championship this year and was consistently on the podium, even winning a handful of races. Last year yellow plates where consistently on the podium, won a handful of races and finished 2nd and 3rd in the championship. The year before that yellow plates were also wining races and a yellow plate won the national championship at Daytona. DO NOT say yellow plates will never finish on the podium and are always at the back when it is just not true.


Furthermore, if you are just there for the battles why do you care WHO finishes on the podium. Personally I rather finish 8th having a great battle with multiple people than ride off into the sunset in first place...


I think people are trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist! The class IS growing under the current rule structure, I have yet to hear exactly what "needs" to be changed that doesn't already have a solution.

dmj_88

#71
Quote from: Capitalview on November 01, 2016, 02:38:27 AM
Wait, so earlier on you said the R3 and RC390 should have to run Supersport rules.  Yet you have a "250" that is making 50HP?  How is that fair?  So I get to ride around with 40 hp, and supersport rules while you can do pretty much anything to your Ninja 250 or 300 in order to make 50hp and do other weight loss mods? 

Sounds like there is absolutely no reason the KTM and R3 shouldn't be allowed in the UL class.


The R3 and 390 already have two classes to run in. Bruce's bike didn't make 50HP this season that I'm aware of, low to mid 4Xs maybe. A well built supersport R3 has already proven to be in the 44+ HP range (must change base and head gaskets as that is a known issue on those bikes)


The fast Barry ninja "250" is not legal for supersport and thus WON'T be entered in 500SS where your Supersport R3 belongs. If you want to build a 50HP R3 then run it in Moto3 with Bruce's "250" and it's a fair matchup. If you build a bike to meet rules of a specific class don't be disappointed that it can then not run other classes it's not currently legal for.


That would be like going out and getting a Duc 749R for Thunderbike, and then complaining it cant run LWSS.