Deck / Head Milling HELP !

[cardzilla]

Ok, first I was reading my rule book today and since it has been a while since I raced I think I missed something... is it really legal to mill a deck or head in supersport racing?  If so, I guess I've found some of my missing 20hp  ;D  I love doing all my own work including motor rebuilds, but I don't have the machinery to properly mill anything so I would appreciate some recommendations.  I live in Jacksonville so somebody between Atlanta and Miami would be optimal.  I had Dick Suarez at Full Spectrum do work on my F2 in '94, but it was very basic.  My 600rr currently dynos at 112, which is a little dissapointing.  Hopefully, this will still be legal for FUSA and AMA pro as I hope to do some of those events next year.

[Super Dave]

Larry, you're disappointed with 112HP?




Yes, milling is legal in CCS supersport classes.

Dick still does good work, as far as I know.

[cardzilla]

Yeah I'm leaning towards Full Spectrum, just curious as to the options out there for tuners.  On another note, I woneder if Mr. Suarez will be happy with "thingy"... those censor programs can be a little ridiculous :D

[Super Dave]

If you were up this way, I'd do http://4and6.com ...You could do it regardless, but if you're gonna stay down that way...well, D1ck might be your best bet.

[cardzilla]

As to being dissapointed w/ 112 hp, it's a matter of efficiency.  I am very meticulous in preparing a bike so I expect great things... 112 should be attainable out of the box with a slip on and no power commander.  More power is always good and I certainly spend plenty of time on setup and suspension to get it to the pavement.  I look at the Ten Kate bike and that beast has a claimed 135hp... from a super sport 600!  Now even taking off for some fudging it probably still makes 128-130.  I think 120 hp on pump gas (or 123 on MR-9) is a very reasonable goal.  It certainly helps in the unlimited GP !

[Super Dave]

AI look at the Ten Kate bike and that beast has a claimed 135hp... from a super sport 600!

That's World Supersport.  Not the same rules at all when compared to AMA or CCS Supersport...WSS is more like Superbike with "stock parts".

[stumpy]

 Larry,
 let me know what you come up with, I will be doing some motorwork to my RR for next year, curious how it goes. Is that 113hp just with a slip-on?


Stumpy

[cardzilla]

In current form the bike has an Arata full titanium system, a custom mapped PC III usb, redline 30W synthentic oil, an emgo "hi-flow" filter, and a 520 chain conversion. Dynos differ, but the stock bike curves they had from earlier in the week seemed pretty good, so I'm confident it was pretty accurate.  I know a few tricks that could maybe get 3HP and I think the MR-9 is worth 2-3, plus whatever milling the deck nets... my guess is 3-4.  I think 8 hp is there and that would get me to 120, which is where I want to be.  I'll post it when I get the results.

[stumpy]

  120hp would be sweet,  Now if I can get mine to go on a diet ;) I got a local working on a alluminum subframe. We'll see how that goes.


Stumpy

[cardzilla]

Yeah, you're right stumpy, this bike is PORTLY.  I felt like I had been beaten by a gorilla after my first weekend of racing.  I have taken off everything I could think of and used wave rotors (which, by the way, actually ADD .6 of a lb to the front... offset by a loss of .7 in the back for a WHOPPING .1 of a lb ??? ) Let me know how that subframe works out, I thought about the same thing and decided it would be too much of a pain.  I thought about buying some titanium motor bolts, etc, but when I saw the price I decided to take the training up a notch and loose a few pounds.  So far I'm down to 175, 165 is my goal.  Between the money I save on food and not buying titanium I may even be able to afford tires  :)

[Steviebee]

gee stump  i thought u had 4and2 build u a 130hp  bike allready?

whats it going to be next year 140?

[stumpy]

 ;D Funny Steve-o..Wasn't it you that put a 1000 engine in your 750??? How's that going?


Stumpy

[Steviebee]

I tried the busa motor but couldnt get enough rear grip to pass you.

Now im looking for a 1000.

[Clarkie49]

As to being dissapointed w/ 112 hp, it's a matter of efficiency.  I am very meticulous in preparing a bike so I expect great things... 112 should be attainable out of the box with a slip on and no power commander.  More power is always good and I certainly spend plenty of time on setup and suspension to get it to the pavement.  I look at the Ten Kate bike and that beast has a claimed 135hp... from a super sport 600!  Now even taking off for some fudging it probably still makes 128-130.  I think 120 hp on pump gas (or 123 on MR-9) is a very reasonable goal.  It certainly helps in the unlimited GP !

Larry - Ten Kate always claims hp at the crank, but i have heard they are getting around 130hp at the rear wheel, they cannot use the oxygenated fuels over here like U4, MR1 etc. (MR1 makes more power than MR9 and MR1 and U4 make the same power except U4 isnt AMA legal....but then neither is my bike :) )

i have built my 600RR to the HRC specs and it started out making 108hp on pump gas with a Two Bros slip-on and now it is making 117hp on pump gas with the same slip-on ( i have an Arrow race system on the way)

the bike has had the head decked, radius valve job, ported heads, HRC velocity stacks/filter, stock degreed cams, and a few other little mods here and there.  I am confident it will make 120hp on pump gas and the MR1 is worth 4-5% which should take it up to around 125hp.  i could squeeze the head a little tighter and with the HRC cams it should make close to 130hp on good juice  8)

all the runs are done on our eddy current dyno with the numbers converted to 'dynojet hp'

[cardzilla]

Did you do all the work yourself?  I'm curious to see the squish zone calculations and corresponding amounts to mill the head/deck.  I haven't done the measurements on mine, but I'm sure degreeing (?) the cams is an absolute necessity.  Anyway, keep me up to date, it is good to have a number to shoot for... even though my bike has to stay supersport legal.
PS - email me on what is happening with our cement mailing friend... hopefully, he's locked down  ;)

[Clarkie49]

an investigation is in progress  ;)

yeah i have done everything myself, my head measured up with 0.033" piston-head which is huge, you can run down to 0.025" in a 600 pretty easily.  the HRC specs say to mill 0.10" off the head and you can either take another 0.008" off the top of the cylinder as well (for AMA rules) or slipit the 3 piece head gasket (0.007" per layer).

the HRC manual wants the piston to valve clearance to be 0.040" whish is quite big as well but what ever it takes to not bounce an exhaust valve  :)

the stock cam timing is 100.5' int/107.5' exh and the HRC specs take you to 104.5/107.5 but the HRC cams have 10' more duration as well which is why the intake cam is a little retarded.

one thing i did find is that my crank was out 20 grams at each end before i had it balanced, might be an idea if you are going to get your motor done, it wont make more power but it will definitely be easier on the engine.

once i have finished building this motor and i come up with a final hp# i think i might put the stock stacks back in and get another stock head and see what i can get from an 'AMA legal' motor.  this motor is more just to see what i can get from it, something to do  ;D

as for staying supersport legal...............................come on now, you would be the only one  ;)

[mdr14]

Horsepower #'s are great if you are measuring penis size.

Bottom line, did your bike accelerate out of the corner better and get to the end of the straight faster than your competition.

It is a fact that a bike dynoed in the midwest during the middle of the summer will read less horsepower than the same bike trailered down to florida sea level. Or even during the middle of the winter in the midwest.

I have built motors and had them dynoed  on Our Dynojet model 250 dyno at the shop before Race of Champions. It was common to see those same bikes at Daytona pick up several horsepower.

My point there is that you can't race a dyno. It is good for tuning, & troubleshooting.

You can't realisticly compare Horsepower #'s from other brands of dynos or dynos from other parts of the country.

Find someone that you know and trust and work with them. You will see your results on the track.
But guess what? Everyone is subject to the same conditions when you race.

I do know this, at the AMA National at ROAD AMERICA, Dan Ortega posted the 6th fastest trap speed in the 600 Supersport race. And guess what? his www.mdracingstp.com built motor wasn't close to 120 hp.

[Clarkie49]

i totally agree, everything i do consists of a before and after graph so the customer and i can actually see the gains from everything done to the bike (even just doing a custom map).

rather than focus on the final number i get my customers to focus on the percentage of hp gains, but you can also just change the correction factor to '1' to see what the bike is really putting out.  Dynos have this clever things called a correction factor and although the bike may actually gain 5hp down at Daytona the bike should 'read' the same hp, well it does on an addy current dyno

i have also raced at RA and i know that the draft is just as important as HP at that track  :)

[Bruce_S]

If you're looking for good work close to Florida, call Jeff Walker at Cooper Performance.  They're in Unadilla, Ga., about 30 mins north of Tifton.  Heads are thier specialty, they do alot of drag work and can really make the power.  Jeff's number is 478-627-9393.

If you are familiar with Star Racing, then you know the work.

[cardzilla]

Thanks, Bruce.  I will check him out.  I have decided to do all the theoretical stuff myself (measurements / cams, etc. ) and just have someone else do the actual machining to my specs.  

[WebCrush]

I have KWS Hi-Comp pistons and a lot of milling off my block. Coupled with cam changes, falicon crank and carillo rods Pat at New England Perf was able to squeeze 135hp out of my 600.

Nothing like going to Daytona and having a top guy like Jeff Wood who is 6-7 seconds faster than me tell me that my bike's got motor and that I'd pull away from him on the banking. :D :D

[eh427]

I have a Honda 600rr and am looking to get some motor work done. Cams, head milled. What kind of costs would I be looking at roughly and is there someone good in the northeast area to do that?

[WebCrush]

I have a Honda 600rr and am looking to get some motor work done. Cams, head milled. What kind of costs would I be looking at roughly and is there someone good in the northeast area to do that?

where in the northeast are you located?

[eh427]

I am located in New Jersey.

[MELK-MAN]

As to being dissapointed w/ 112 hp, it's a matter of efficiency.  I am very meticulous in preparing a bike so I expect great things... 112 should be attainable out of the box with a slip on and no power commander.  More power is always good and I certainly spend plenty of time on setup and suspension to get it to the pavement.  I look at the Ten Kate bike and that beast has a claimed 135hp... from a super sport 600!  Now even taking off for some fudging it probably still makes 128-130.  I think 120 hp on pump gas (or 123 on MR-9) is a very reasonable goal.  It certainly helps in the unlimited GP !

I also understand they tear those motors and completely rebuild after EVERY race...