I (may) have a new goal now that my previous goal has been squashed like so many roadside critters by the powers that be ;)
Someone please tell me why qualifying for the AMA Supersport Race at Road America is harder than it appears? Looks like 2:27 qualified last year on a decent track (i.e. no rain or real cold temps)
Is it really that doable?
Alternately, or maybe also, Barber late in the season :)
Good Luck!! :D
The 112% rule is not what you are up against; it is the number of people attempting to qualify.
I wanted to run the Superstock race in 2002 at Road America while I was up there running the Pro-Thunder race. Based on the 112% rule, I figured a 2:28 would easily get me in the race, and I knew I could do that. I put on new DOT's, went out and ran four laps, ran my 2:26 and came in because I did not want to use up my tires or crash. I did not mind starting in the back row. Well, I came to find out that although my time was under the cut-off, they limited the number of entries, and I was the fastest guy not to make the cut. I was so pissed because I had could have run a 2:24, since I was running low 2:26's on my 748! I was pissed. There are plenty more 600 entries, so don't think you'll qualify just by ducking in under the 112% rule. I made that mistake. Good thing I was up there to run Pro-Thunder, or I would have kicked myself!
We'll see how the weather is and or how I ride in april. I gotta be going low 20s. If that's the case I'll be there w/ you Steve, RA ..... did someone say PRO AMA ???
QuoteWe'll see how the weather is and or how I ride in april. I gotta be going low 20s. If that's the case I'll be there w/ you Steve, RA ..... did someone say PRO AMA ???
Game On! :D ;)
QuoteGame On! :D ;)
hells ya and maybe we could stop at a couple of the local bars too. ;D
The factory boys whining about too many slow guys on the track is why they cut the number of riders. They make a 112% rule then cut the field and even though you qualified you can't race. I think last years cut was 40 bikes at RA. A track that can handle 60 bikes easily and they cut it at 40 to keep the factory guys happy.
As much as that sucks for privateers it seems like a plausible arguement.
SDiver,
You may want to talk to Tez or Weeden about qualifying for Road A. I know last year, those guys barely made it into the AMA supersport race and they probably can tell you the lap times that were necessary to get them there.
If you are running consistently with the top 5 experts in the 600 class, you should be able to get in, otherwise....... :-/
Brian,
Yeah sucks is right. It's not like the pros are going to be lapping these guys that made the cut at 112%.
Last year a friend of mine qualified for the 600 race but was #41 on the list, the first guy cut. He went and argued with the national ref about lap times and how his times would have kept him on the lead lap until very late in the race. It didn't matter, they had picked an unexplained, arbitrary number out of their heads and that was the cut off.
Why have a 112% rule if they are going to set qualfying by another method? They never informed anyone there was a 40 bike cut before qualifying.
I understand the safety factor of exceeding track density, closing speeds between the factory guys and slower privateers etc. but on a track as large as RA cutting the field to 40 bikes is a bit ridiculous. the field spreads out so much that lapping by the leaders is not a real problem.
On short courses yes, there are big problems. Some times the leaders are lapping guys 2 or 3 times but not at RA. Besides. isn't that part of racing? Yes, if you run up front you may have to lap some guys. :o
yeah, the worst part is that I knew I could go faster, a lot faster, but I either did not know or did not think of the limitied grid so I did not want to risk crashing once I turned a 2:26. I thought I might as well pull in, save my tires and let the fast guys have an open track. It was a bummer. I know it would be harder to qualify for 600SS than Superstock, especially at a premier track like Road America
Yeah, Ice, I did look up the times, and 2:27 last year made it into the race according to AMAproracing.com.
Last year, I was running 2:38's in 40 degrees and mist and damp track on a stock (power) GSXR600 (when the lead experts were running 2:22-2:25s in those condiitons), in my second weekend ever. At Gateway, I went from 1:20 to 1:11 just going from my first weekend ever to my 2nd time there.
Anyway, like DanO said, I'll see what my times look like in April, and go from there, but a guy has to have goals you know! :)
I say go for it. Finding a draft partner helps as well. I know for the FUSA 600 race last year myself and Matt Wait hooked up in qualifying and we both dropped time, and both ended up on the second row. If I recall right I think we were doing times right around 2:20 flat.
If you do go good luck. I will be riding superstock, see ya there.
Later Sk8er,
Steve Atlas
Steve I remember thinking the same thing to myself. DanO and I looked up the results from RA and were a little suprised. RA was only my 3rd ever race weekend (really more like 2nd since my 1st race weekend I only ran 1 class...) I started off running 2:35s my first session at a practice day a few days before the CCS races in August... and by the end of the races that weekend had worked myself down to consistent low 2:28s - and I have *plenty* of ideas in my head of where I can make up a lot of time. I'm going to be really disappointed in myself if I don't touch 24s in April.
I'd love to try for ProAMA... but alas my yellow plates are holding me back. My ProAMA debut won't be until 2004... which is good or bad depending on how you look at it. I'll be content pitting for DanO this year I think. I almost have more fun working as a pit crew member than racing anyways! (yeah I know I'm a little messed up...) ;) ;D
Hey Jim,
We need to pit next to each other, so we can help each other out.
My first RA experience was a nightmare, no practice, decent Friday if you call 50 degrees decent, Saturday it rained all day and Sunday the track was still damp from the presistent mist...oh and did I say 40 degrees?
But, the track and facility are awesome, so I can't wait to ride it when the weather is decent.
Monte Nichols and I worked together, I wasn't riding, and got him down to 2:20's for the AMA race. There is a lot of work to do, and you need to have someone that can think for you. That's what I was doing...thinking. Monte rides, bring him in, I make changes, send him out again.
As for just doing AMA stuff... Here's always the question I throw out. Are you really ready?
Unless you're really capable of going out and winning expert races in on your MWSS bike, why do it? If you're young and you have further aspirations, don't roll your good name in the dirt trying to gain experience. The factory level bikes are not like yours. Sure, it's a matter of riding the bike, but are you ready? Tez and Weeden didn't do as well as I expected of them. I expected more.
I do agree with a 40 bike field. There has to be some kind of reasonable number. Yes, the track will hold more, but this is an AMA Pro event. It should hold some honor and esteem. You've got to go out and do your best. Shooting for the window that will get you in will not cut it. You really need to go out each time and work, change the set up, work it more, and get going.
My opinion. I've done it.
I agree you must do your best and people do but then get cut by an arbitrary number that nobody knows about. They set a standard of 112% so every body that runs inside 112% should be in the race. Anything different is bullshat.
If they want to set a different standard then they need to change the qualifying standard and not set field some number they pull out of their ass.
It's not right to change the rules during the event and not tell anyone. But as long as people put up with it that crap it will keep happening. Believe me if it affected the factory boys the shat would get changed pronto because they would pitch a big enough gripe about it.
The privateers, the biggest group in the race needs to be heard loud and clear, but it's not happening.
I always thought that only 40 went to the grid anyway regardless of time.
That has been customary for years and years at AMA Pro Road Races...except Daytona where they take 80. Might be in their rule book, but I don't have one handy.
Young? I'm 32, and I could give 2 @#$@#$ about my "good name" when it comes to where I place in an AMA race.
Don't you know, S_D, you're going to help me too ;)
Yeah, I saw MN in the 2:20's which garnered him 14th place. That's a very good result imho.
My point? If I'm running 2:25's or better in April (depending on conditions of course), then I'm going!
Good luck and have fun 8) I wanna do the same at VIR next year.
QuoteYoung? I'm 32, and I could give 2 @#$@#$ about my "good name" when it comes to where I place in an AMA race.
Don't you know, S_D, you're going to help me too ;)
I agree. It is a bit different if you're younger and you have the thought that you might want to race AMA stuff more regularly.
Yes, I'm here to help you...
;D
QuoteI agree. It is a bit different if you're younger and you have the thought that you might want to race AMA stuff more regularly.
Yes, I'm here to help you...
;D
What if I just want to race the AMA stuff regularly, but have no wish to be picked up, given a ride, or just generally have any other goal than qualify, race and have a good time?
I wouldn't take a ride if it was offered to me... my career lies... err elsewhere
Dave, Right now I can only find my '01 rule book but there is no field cut off except qualifying times unless there are "special general circumstances such as track delays resulting in an extreme reduction of qualifying time, significant changes in weather conditions, etc". No track density rules or anything else.
It's a game they play, that's all. If the field is 40 bikes they need to tell everyone that. What they do is take your entry fee and run even if you make the qualifying time! Can you tell me you agree with that?
Sdiver,
I agree with you. If you are doing the lap times, why not enter? I would....
Good luck :)
Dave,
Tez told me that his footpeg fell off during the middle of the race.....loose bolt or something. :-/
Might have lost his peg during the race, but their qualifying put them many rows back from Monte Nichols' position. I expected them to do better in qualifying, and I expected more of them. They can both go pretty quick.
Gordy, I'll agree to a point. Yes, they should announce it, but, additionally, this is the BIG SHOW, so sometimes I don't think fairness should come into play. Regardless of how goofy the AMA might be at this level, it is the premiere road racing series in North America. And the factories spend a huge amount of money buying and supporting teams that can been seen on TV, Print, and the like. So, yes, there is an entry fee, but that allows your team/rider an opportunity to make the field. If the rider doesn't get it done...
The Daytona 500 has many teams that try to make the field. Probably 100 try to get in, but, what, 44 make the event. The entry costs tens of thousands of dollars. But if you don't get the job done, you don't go to the show. I believe that making the field should be a privelage, not a right.
Roger Hendricks and I both got bumped from the field at Laguna in 1992. We were within the time. He was number 41 and I was 43. Number 42 was from outside of the country. I did not light the fire under myself that I needed to, and I had brought my evil girl friend along too (MISTAKE!). I never had a problem before, qualifying, and it never, ever happened again.
r6_philly... You have to make the decision. But, remember, it is the big show. I suppose my thoughts above apply.
You're missing my point Dave. In the Nascar and Indy car fields there are x amount of slots open and everyone knows that ahead of time and the racers go out and try to get one of those grid positions by running as fast as they possibly can to get one. It's the top 40 or 44 or 33 or however many slots are open.
In AMA they don't state a number of slots available, just a qualifying time. So, you go out, run the time within their standard and still don't make the race because they set the field without telling anyone there are limited grid slots open. They did their job and still don't get a spot.
That is why you may have some guys running what they think is fast enough rather than pushing for more. They think they are in the field by their qualifying time. They should be in the race but AMA says sure you made the time but oh, we forgot to tell you there are only 40 slots open and you are 41. That is ridiculous!
What they need to do is set a field at 40 or whatever and then the fastest 40 guys make it. It's real simple. Nascar does not set a percentage rule and neither does anyone else. The main show is the fastest x amount of guys in qualifying, period.
They can do it either way but not both. A percentage rule where everyone that makes the cut is in or x amount of grid positions and you have to run fast enough to earn one.
The premier motorcycle race organization in this country is a farce.
I think I tend to agree with Dave here. The AMA is the TOP motorcycle racing org in the country. The only thing higher than the AMA is what, FIM? It *should* be reserved for the top ~40 fastest riders. If they want to cut the field down from 60 or 80 down to whatever... fine. Just gives you motivation to try harder next time IMO. It also gives a little more panache to those who DID make the cut. This is ProAMA. It's not about fun anymore, it's about racing, winning, and prestige. The AMA has an image to protect. If they let any Joe Blow in, then it kinda hurts the image of being a Pro, "best-of-the-best" racing organization.
Based on how many people seem to have qualified under the 112% rule, I'd guess that says that RA is just an "easy" track by Pro standards. So they have to bend the rules a little and raise the bar. To be honest, I'm surprised at some of the lap times - I figured they were typos or something. Wasn't there a handful of 27s that qualified in 750SS? That's barely a second faster than what *I* was running, and I'm a 1st year Am.
As for not TELLING you they were gonna cut it to 40 riders... ya, that kinda stinks, but what're ya gonna do? They may not have anticipated having 80 guys fit under their 112% rule. But it's their org. Like I said, they need to maintain an image of being the top-level racing series. If they deem you're not fast enough, then well, you're not fast enough. Regardless of whether you squeak in under their "limit" or not. Sorry pal, better luck next time. You'll just have to go faster next year.
Now I'm also with sdiver here... I don't see the harm in trying to qualify. It gives me something to shoot for... kinda like going out for the basketball team. You keep trying year after year until you make it... you don't sit around and wait until you think you're ready. If all of these people that are qualifying into the races that shouldn't be... then maybe AMA needs to just raise the bar for that particular track. (Which it seems to me that they did, setting the top-40 cutoff.) And if I was IN that 40, I don't think I'd want anymore people on the track anyways. I was part of a near-40 rider field last August. I was gridded in the last row (no pre-entry) and my god, what a cluster-f**k going into T1. 40 people, even on such a large track, is a LOT of people.
Anyways... that's my $7.50.
Steve, ya we'll have to pit next to each other next year, whenever we can. I always enjoy sharing ideas with other riders on how to go faster around the track. I'm sure I'll be picking your brains when it comes to Gateway next year, since I've never even SEEN the track...
QuoteIn AMA they don't state a number of slots available, just a qualifying time. So, you go out, run the time within their standard and still don't make the race because they set the field without telling anyone there are limited grid slots open. They did their job and still don't get a spot.
That is why you may have some guys running what they think is fast enough rather than pushing for more. They think they are in the field by their qualifying time. They should be in the race but AMA says sure you made the time but oh, we forgot to tell you there are only 40 slots open and you are 41. That is ridiculous!
Well, *I* would think that, this being a PRO event, you should be pretty much giving it your ALL during qualifying. Shit, you should be giving it your ALL, all weekend. Unless you're in the top-5, where you KNOW you can slack off. But this is professional-level racing. This is serious. The teams there, are there to try to win. They're there to make a name for themselves. If you're slacking off, and doing the bare minimum to just get yourself in.. then you don't deserve it as much as the next guy who really busted his ass to make it.
QuoteWhat they need to do is set a field at 40 or whatever and then the fastest 40 guys make it. It's real simple. Nascar does not set a percentage rule and neither does anyone else. The main show is the fastest x amount of guys in qualifying, period.
They can do it either way but not both. A percentage rule where everyone that makes the cut is in or x amount of grid positions and you have to run fast enough to earn one.
The premier motorcycle race organization in this country is a farce.
Well, but I can see a good reason to have both.
In NASCAR, it's a popular enough sport, that you HAVE 100+ teams that are CAPABLE of qualifying and being competitive. Now, I don't pay ANY attention to NASCAR (I hate it, actually) but I'd imagine that the lap times that separate the #1 qualifier, from the #40, aren't nearly as drastic as the gaps we see in the AMA.
NASCAR has enough people that they can justify just cutting it at 40. But with ProAMA roadracing... do they even HAVE 40 teams that are all running within a few seconds of each other? No way. There's already a pretty healthy spread in lap times across the *top-20* guys. The 112% thing probably has to do with safety as well as the prestige factor. If you're running 2:10s at RA, you don't want to be running into guys that are running 2:35s, do you? You have such a tremendous difference across the field that there becomes a serious danger involved with the difference in closing speeds between a lapper and the #1 guy. The AMA doesn't get the participation levels to just cut it at 40 guys. If they did, the 40th guy may be 20-30 seconds off the pace. That's not good. They've gotta set a time limit somewhere.
My point is they can't do it both ways. One or the other. Within 112% or a 40 bike field.
I understand the safety issues, believe me. The AMA has run these tracks for how long? If they want to keep it safe they define a track density for each venue and that's it. Then you have x amount of grid positions to qualify for at each race. That will give you the top 40 or whatever racers for each event.
If 112% is too lax of a time then they need to tighten it up. My main complaint is the way they change rules midstream and screw over guys who qualified by their rules.
Yes in NASCAR all the competitors are closer. You don't get there by being slow. But NASCAR is like our Superbike class not SS. Take the factories out of SS and guess what. the times are a lot closer.
But that's another thread ...Why are factory Superbike riders allowed in SS racing? You don't see that in world SS. It's a class all it's own and the riders don't cross over. SS riders earn their way up to a superbike ride by winning in SS. Once there they don't ride down.
And the idea that there may not be enough riders to qualify for an event stems from that. Too many club racers won't even attempt to qualify because they know they don't stand a chance against the factories.
True?
QuoteI understand the safety issues, believe me. The AMA has run these tracks for how long? If they want to keep it safe they define a track density for each venue and that's it. Then you have x amount of grid positions to qualify for at each race. That will give you the top 40 or whatever racers for each event.
But isn't that kinda what they did at RA? The only difference is that they didn't do this until after everyone had gone through qualifying?
QuoteIf 112% is too lax of a time then they need to tighten it up.
I agree.
QuoteMy main complaint is the way they change rules midstream and screw over guys who qualified by their rules.
I guess this is really mainly where we disagree. I don't see how they "screwed over" anyone. Ok, so somebody made it under the 112%, thought they qualified, did a happy dance... and then an official came around and told them that they didn't qualify afterall. So the racer is disappointed.
But as I see it, it's not a racers "right" to be allowed to race. He doesn't "deserve" anything. I see it as a privilege to run in the pro ranks. Those who have not only
worked to make it there... but those who have worked AND
achieved. QuoteYes in NASCAR all the competitors are closer. You don't get there by being slow. But NASCAR is like our Superbike class not SS. Take the factories out of SS and guess what. the times are a lot closer.
That's very true. There does seem to be a pretty big difference between the factory guys, and the privateers. But if you take out the factory teams, then what are you left with? A race that's no different from a FUSA or local CCS race?
QuoteBut that's another thread ...Why are factory Superbike riders allowed in SS racing? You don't see that in world SS. It's a class all it's own and the riders don't cross over. SS riders earn their way up to a superbike ride by winning in SS. Once there they don't ride down.
Yeah, it can probably turn into a whole other huge-arse thread ;) I'm kinda torn right now between being a potential future AMA competitor, and a fan of the series (as a spectator.) I kinda like seeing what factory-level riders can do on almost near-stock bikes.
QuoteAnd the idea that there may not be enough riders to qualify for an event stems from that. Too many club racers won't even attempt to qualify because they know they don't stand a chance against the factories.
True?
While I think that could be debateable... I tend to agree. On one hand, I totally agree with you. Most smaller teams would know that they don't stand a chance, so why bother. There isn't as much popularity, glory, or money in motorcycle racing as there is in some of the car stuff (NHRA, NASCAR, etc.) so it's much harder to form a profitable privateer race team.
But on the other hand, it may just force privateer teams to up their own bar.
I dunno. This is an interesting discussion tho. I've never really paid attention to the politics of racing. I raced motocross for a few years before stepping into roadracing, but never really took it very seriously. I look at my roadracing career a little differently. I'm sure it shows that I'm still new into all of this... and maybe my opinions on some of this stuff will change once I reach the level to where I believe I'm competitive with the pro guys.
At any rate.. time to get back to playing MotoGP :)
Man, I gotta agree w/ EVERY work Omni has said.
If you can't roll w/ them boyz, why you even out there? ???
Fighting for last place just doesn't seem like much fun ;D ;)
imho
Here's the answer. A supposed Pro organization should have a clear defined set of rules for the event there putting on. How fast or slow you are has no bearing on this. :P
QuoteFighting for last place just doesn't seem like much fun ;D ;)
imho
True... it's always more fun up front ;D
But I think I'd still be grinning from ear to ear just knowing I qualified to be out there racing next to the factory teams - dead last or not! :)
PS - where did you find that pic in your sig of the kid getting beaned? Hilarious....
QuoteBut I think I'd still be grinning from ear to ear just knowing I qualified to be out there racing next to the factory teams - dead last or not! :)....
I'm just bustin sdiver's chops ;) :D
I'll be there pittin' for him 8)
QuoteI'm just bustin sdiver's chops ;) :D
I'll be there pittin' for him 8)
LOL that's ok ;) As time gets closer I figure I'll be giving DanO sh*t too ;D
So the question is: who's gonna finish 39th, and who will take 40th? DanO or sdiver? LOL...
QuoteSo the question is: who's gonna finish 39th, and who will take 40th? DanO or sdiver? LOL...
Diver will take 39th, cause I will be doing lots of supension & tire pressure adjustments on DanO's bike, on behalf of my teammate sdiver ;D ;D ;D ;)
QuoteThe premier motorcycle race organization in this country is a farce.
Yes, in addition to most attempts here to do the same.
If we use NASCAR as a model, you MUST have very clearly defined rules that can be changed through the years. This has swayed the factories from fielding their own teams, like AMA Superbike, and makes them support a whole field of teams with drivers, crews, marketing professionals, etc. AMA Superbike leaves privateers looking for a 2003 GSXR1000 to race the Daytona 200 with, but they are not available, while the factory teams will have them. What's up with that?
Good racing is good for business. The more you have running together the better. And to watch good riders get waxed by good riders with substantially different equipment...it is a joke.
QuoteDiver will take 39th, cause I will be doing lots of supension & tire pressure adjustments on DanO's bike, on behalf of my teammate sdiver ;D ;D ;D ;)
LMFAO...
I don't give a f**K...I just ride the damn thing..lol
Heck you should of seen my air filter the first time that I got teched...lol
On a serious note, I really don't care what they change the rules to. If they cut it to 25 or 30 riders that just means two things.
1. Just go faster!! (give it more gas)
2. Your friends don't have to wait so long to see your name on the grid on ESPN (or speed channel). Cuz it's only going to scroll 25 guys instead of 60 guys. IMHO
Good luck, hey I'm with you guys, I would feel priveledged just to get to line up with the AMA guys. However, I think the time should cut off much lower than it does, or it should be based on an average time during qual. maybee av. fastest 5 laps. I say this because I help at mid ohio as a spotter for the announcers, and alot of the guys that qualify for superstock, and SS, do so on what must have been somewhat of fluke laps. Maybee just got to tuck in with someone and pray? Alot of the back markers weren't running times in the 112% during the race. So you had guys effectively running 115% or even a little worse on av. I think the leaders were into traffic in like 6 laps. Kinda riddiculous. I want to qualify for AMA races, but I want it to mean something, I've raced about 6 weekends ever, I was in the 112% at Mid Ohio. On a bike that had never even had the suspention adjusted, it was set when i bought it new and I didn't know any better. I would have missed the 40th spot by .3 secs. this was before 3 of the 6 race weekends too.
I hope you make the cut, I also hope the cut is much harder to attain ;D
AMA "Pro" racing is run by the factories. People need to realize that before they go pro racing.
The politics are outrageous ... pay close attention to what happens in different situations and you will understand. Does Chick Chenuard (spelling?) sound familiar? What about holding up restarts on a red flag until the factory guy gets his bike repaired? They wouldn't hold up a start for a privateer. And how about back up bikes coming out of the trailer illegally but nothing is done about it? I've watched all of it happen. This is all in SS racing where the privateer is supposed to have a chance on his "equal" ::) equipment.
Looking forward to another year of politics ... I mean racing. Yeah, racing that's it. ;D ;D ;D
First, IMHO, I have no problem with setting the bar at 2:20 or 108% or 105% or Top 40 or whatever. However, I don't think it's fair to change the rules in the middle of the event.
Hell, I may run 2:30's in April and laugh at myself for even considering the idea.
All good points, and thanks for the input...it sounds like it applies to lots of other people thinking similar.
Part of it is RA is "our" home AMA track. Just like WERA SE tends to put a lot of people on the grids and placing well at Road Atlanta since it's "home" track for them, I'd like to see more CCS MW, GP, GL people do the same at Road America.
What's up Steve,
You better do good if your motor is worth $5000! :D. ;)
Matt
Just a note on track density ...... I remember starting in a WERA endurance race with over 80 bikes on the grid at Rd America. One wave if I remember correctly. :o
Hey Matt,
I was counting 2 missed days of work in that since the guy who built my motor is in Wisconsin ;D
QuoteHey Matt,
I was counting 2 missed days of work in that since the guy who built my motor is in Wisconsin ;D
Aha! So it is built. Very good then. :)
QuoteI was counting 2 missed days of work in that since the guy who built my motor is in Wisconsin
Wisconsin.....motor....$5000.........hmmmmm
MJ?
On my way up to cheese land tomorrow to get my HP ;D
Ice-
If I told you my bike was bright yellow and Black would that solve the mystery? :D