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Racing Discussion => Rules and Regs => Topic started by: diamond on January 05, 2012, 07:54:12 AM

Title: 2012 Ultralightweight Thunderbike?
Post by: diamond on January 05, 2012, 07:54:12 AM
Any update on this class?  The mailer said that there may be changes to the class rules/displacement? 
Title: Re: 2012 Ultralightweight Thunderbike?
Post by: MAZZ77X on January 05, 2012, 04:39:59 PM
I hope not. The class is perfect just the way it is. It was intended to provide a cheap and reliable avenue for young racers and also those older guys that dont need 195 HP to have some fun. The Ninja 250 is a great bike!
Title: Re: 2012 Ultralightweight Thunderbike?
Post by: Jiggyfly on February 12, 2012, 02:12:51 AM
its posted in the new ccs rulebook. and AFAIK, its not good. almost every org out there has a Ninja 250 specific class except CCS. sure, they have a class for them..... and other bikes can run it, which is fine..... but there's no cap on performance...... just keep it 250cc's. & thats where the ball gets dropped. the cool thing about all of the other orgs, is that its pretty much a bone stock 250. no worries about rider XX showing up with flatslide carbs, or cams the next race weekend because you out rode him this weekend. now, its a money class, too. will everyone do that? not necessarily, but some will..... $8000 Ninja 250's are right around the corner.


I'm disappointed.
Title: Re: 2012 Ultralightweight Thunderbike?
Post by: bruce71198 on February 13, 2012, 02:13:14 PM
WOW...what a let down!! Why cant they leave well enough alone?
A few thoughts; If we can build our bikes , riders from outher organizations aren't going to cross over and run with CCS. This is supposed to be low buck, entry level racing. Can I get flatslides that small ? Better yet can someone from CCS respond?






























Title: Re: 2012 Ultralightweight Thunderbike?
Post by: bruce71198 on February 13, 2012, 03:10:39 PM
Found this in a news release from 2011
ULTRALIGHT THUNDERBIKE TO BE INTRODUCED AT NEW JERSEY
May 4, 2011 - A new class has been created by the Championship Cup Series and will be introduced for the first time at New Jersey Motorsports Park (http://www.ccsracing.us/venues/newjersey.html), May 13-15, 2011. Ultralight Thunderbike, a specialized class, will be offered at limited CCS events this season: all 4 New Jersey events, all 3 Summit Point events and the two events at VIR.
"Ultralight ThunderBike is basically a SuperSport 250s class for bikes such as the Ninja and Honda 250, which aren't as competitive in other classes." said Kevin Elliott, owner of the Championship Cup Series. "Single & Twin cylinder liquid-cooled engines up to 250cc as well as Twin Cylinder air-cooled 350cc machines qualify for this class. Although some restrictions apply, bikes must be completely stock OEM for the most part and run street tires."
Riders can enter the Ultralight ThunderBike class at the track using a special post-entry form.
Interested racers are encouraged to read the Ultralight ThunderBike section in the 2011 Rulebook (http://www.ccsracing.us/forms/2011/rules/2011%20asra-ccs%20rulebook.pdf), Addendum 3, pages 55-56, which includes all of the technical information for the class including which bikes qualify and the modifications allowed.

What the hell happened ? Kevin ?
Title: Re: 2012 Ultralightweight Thunderbike?
Post by: MAZZ77X on February 13, 2012, 04:24:00 PM
I to am dissapointed.

Please make this a SPEC class. Keep this class cheap and fun like it was designed to be, like other racing orgs have done and it will continue to grow!

Let it go as is and it will become a free for all, who's got the biggest pocketbook and die off like some other classes have in the past.

CBR & Ninja 250's with stock air box, jets and a pipe, thats IT!!!  Simple enough but.................................. :rollseyes: :rollseyes: :rollseyes:
Title: Re: 2012 Ultralightweight Thunderbike?
Post by: bruce71198 on February 13, 2012, 06:38:43 PM
How about ultra lightweight super sport?
Title: Re: 2012 Ultralightweight Thunderbike?
Post by: Jiggyfly on February 13, 2012, 11:33:45 PM
^^^^
yes!
Title: Re: 2012 Ultralightweight Thunderbike?
Post by: Jiggyfly on February 14, 2012, 02:14:22 AM
CCS can chime in whenever........as in like, now??? :D
Title: Re: 2012 Ultralightweight Thunderbike?
Post by: Eric Kelcher on February 14, 2012, 12:13:14 PM
FYI I try to check in once a week to review what questions there may be; sometimes more sometimes less depending on calls in the office and paperwork to be processed.

On this topic I had seen it but before replying I wanted to be sure of info before commenting with Kevin and check info for the test markets it was run in last year.

The finding was there was very limited particiaption with strict rules package. In oder to garner more entries and justify expanding to full event schedule it was neccessary to allow as many eligible bikes for the class as possible. This means a more open format of modifications, if or when the grids justify splitting out a Supersport, or tighter spec class then it will be done.
Title: Re: 2012 Ultralightweight Thunderbike?
Post by: Jiggyfly on February 14, 2012, 02:24:13 PM
But of course there was limited participation.......it was a NEW class!!!! NO one even KNEW about it.
I raced it last year for the final BHF round, & there was 5 of us......since then, I know of at least
6-8 more people that ran out & bought Ninja 250's in that region....with an additional 3-4 possible.
Title: Re: 2012 Ultralightweight Thunderbike?
Post by: steve p on February 14, 2012, 07:02:30 PM
And that's the whole problem with CCS.  The answer is just add another class.  I'm all for the 250 class.  I think it's great.  Now you've added two classes this year without taking anything away.  So many redundant classes now, there simply isn't enough time in the day.  All it takes is one snafu and you are over on time.  The schedule needs a complete face lift.

Not ripping on this class, I think it's a great addition.  I agree with the above that it should remain a stock class with as few as possible modifications available.
Title: Re: 2012 Ultralightweight Thunderbike?
Post by: MAZZ77X on February 14, 2012, 09:26:20 PM
This class was introduced in what, April of last year when everyone had already commited there resources elsewere.

Give it time and it will grow, it has in every other region. Open the flood gates and it will just fade away.

My son will be on the grid this season on a spec legal Ninja 250. What better way for him to develop his race craft than racing with other racers on identical equipment.
Title: Re: 2012 Ultralightweight Thunderbike?
Post by: twilkinson3 on February 15, 2012, 10:25:31 AM
I was one of the midwest maybes - spec class ninja racing looked like fun...not a money pit in terms of mods to stay competitive etc etc, I'm probably not going to make the grid for the 250s this year (Lightweight bike needed a motor refreshed) so the budget isn't there to build out another race bike in 2012, but I too would much prefer a stock class for the 250s not another builder class arms race one
Title: Re: 2012 Ultralightweight Thunderbike?
Post by: roadracer162 on February 15, 2012, 11:53:48 AM
 am not competing on this class but I am willing to offer my two cents if you want to listen.

1) Why not have a gentleman's agreement not to build the bike beyond supersport rules? Yes, I am sure one person might just do that but would the rest of you stop racing the class?

2) If you can show commitment from potential riders that the class would be bigger than it is currently with a change back to SuperStock type rules, maybe CCS will consider changing the rules back.

Mark
Title: Re: 2012 Ultralightweight Thunderbike?
Post by: NJ MiniGP on February 15, 2012, 01:27:41 PM
Stay strong CCS.  Dont let the industry tell you how to structure your classes.  Tell the industry how you plan to do it.  This class is absolutely the direction all racing needs to go.  Bone stock, cheap racing.  Anything else turns riders away.  I for one have no interest in racing right next to an R6 with 127hp so I just wont race that class.  I do however have interest in this super fun 250 class but not if I find myself in the same situation lining up against a ninja with 40hp when stock they make about 22hp.  what's the point.  Racing entries are not down because people are losing interest in racing.  They are down because it costs too damn much money to have a relevant machine. 
Title: Re: 2012 Ultralightweight Thunderbike?
Post by: bruce71198 on February 15, 2012, 01:43:10 PM
From the first post last season, concerning this class, everyone was in favor of the original class structure ! All positive, this is what the racers were in favor of.
Can those of you racing this class hold yourselve to super sport rules? I have already prepped 2 bikes to last years rules. $4.95 for an air box on Ebay...outragious!
Title: Re: 2012 Ultralightweight Thunderbike?
Post by: Jiggyfly on February 15, 2012, 07:11:44 PM
Quote from: NJ MiniGP on February 15, 2012, 01:27:41 PM
Stay strong CCS.  Dont let the industry tell you how to structure your classes.  Tell the industry how you plan to do it.  This class is absolutely the direction all racing needs to go.  Bone stock, cheap racing.  Anything else turns riders away.  I for one have no interest in racing right next to an R6 with 127hp so I just wont race that class.  I do however have interest in this super fun 250 class but not if I find myself in the same situation lining up against a ninja with 40hp when stock they make about 22hp.  what's the point.  Racing entries are not down because people are losing interest in racing.  They are down because it costs too damn much money to have a relevant machine.

If you actually read the posts.....were lobbying FORa stock class, & CCS made the rules for allowing UNLIMITED mods as long as you stay 250cc's
Title: Re: 2012 Ultralightweight Thunderbike?
Post by: CHIRINOM on February 15, 2012, 08:52:32 PM
I am not happy about this at all.
Title: Re: 2012 Ultralightweight Thunderbike?
Post by: CHIRINOM on February 15, 2012, 08:59:53 PM
Quote from: bruce71198 on February 13, 2012, 03:10:39 PM
Found this in a news release from 2011
ULTRALIGHT THUNDERBIKE TO BE INTRODUCED AT NEW JERSEY
May 4, 2011 - A new class has been created by the Championship Cup Series and will be introduced for the first time at New Jersey Motorsports Park (http://www.ccsracing.us/venues/newjersey.html), May 13-15, 2011. Ultralight Thunderbike, a specialized class, will be offered at limited CCS events this season: all 4 New Jersey events, all 3 Summit Point events and the two events at VIR.
"Ultralight ThunderBike is basically a SuperSport 250s class for bikes such as the Ninja and Honda 250, which aren't as competitive in other classes." said Kevin Elliott, owner of the Championship Cup Series. "Single & Twin cylinder liquid-cooled engines up to 250cc as well as Twin Cylinder air-cooled 350cc machines qualify for this class. Although some restrictions apply, bikes must be completely stock OEM for the most part and run street tires."
Riders can enter the Ultralight ThunderBike class at the track using a special post-entry form.
Interested racers are encouraged to read the Ultralight ThunderBike section in the 2011 Rulebook (http://www.ccsracing.us/forms/2011/rules/2011%20asra-ccs%20rulebook.pdf), Addendum 3, pages 55-56, which includes all of the technical information for the class including which bikes qualify and the modifications allowed.

What the hell happened ? Kevin ?

I agree! This is a severe let down.  A 250 class based around Super Sport rules is what was stated on the press release initially. The rules should be amended to correspond with that statement.
Title: Re: 2012 Ultralightweight Thunderbike?
Post by: Cab305 on February 15, 2012, 09:00:19 PM
I just got my CCS certification this weekend, solely for the 250 Spec class. Learned to ride last year just to do this.
Sadly unforeseen financial issues kept me off the grid on opening day, will be there for the next one.


As a novice I can personally tell you, this class is very attractive as an affordable, slower way to get into the sport.... only if it stays spec that is. I don't have a budget that will allow me to be competitive if this goes arms-race. This is the only bike I can afford to run, even in spec form.


So my two cents, keep it spec, I'm proof that it will grow in popularity.


Title: Re: 2012 Ultralightweight Thunderbike?
Post by: vance on February 15, 2012, 11:32:24 PM
Just wow...


I know nobody gives a shit, but my slow ass turned laps 3.5 seconds off the winner's pace last weekend.  Last time I was on a 600 at Homestead it was, oh I don't know.... 15 seconds or so off lead pace???
So the point is, at the end of the race, the leader was at least in freakin' site of my average ass and it felt good.  That bike is going to sit in the garage AS IS and the things I need to get faster don't involve $$$$.  After racing a 1000, 600, 125, ex500 and now the 250, there's no better bike for an average rider looking to have fun and still FEEL like there's a chance to hang with the guys winning.  I don't know how to "build" a bike, but that was one less thing I needed to be concerned with.
How many threads are here that start off:  "New to racing and wondering what bike to get.."  The response?  "SV and LEARN TO RIDE.  Don't sink a bunch of money into a bike, bla bla...."
What's it cost to put an SV on top of the podium?
What's it cost to put an ex250 on top of the podium?


As far as limited participation.....
I don't know the first thing about how to build a class and get guys to the grid.  I only know why I chose to race the 250 and this news is disappointing.
Title: Re: 2012 Ultralightweight Thunderbike?
Post by: 775 on February 16, 2012, 01:25:21 AM
I'm currently in the process of building 2 ex250's, one for me and one for my wife, at least mine will be ready for next round @ Roebling, and these are bad news, I was counting on being competitive running bone stock bikes and this was the reason we decided to do it.
CCS office,
I think here you can see it pretty clearly, all of us want a spec class, or the least mods allowed, like in most other organizations.
Title: Re: 2012 Ultralightweight Thunderbike?
Post by: Jiggyfly on February 16, 2012, 03:10:50 AM
No......we ACTUALLY DO give a shit!!!!
Title: Re: 2012 Ultralightweight Thunderbike?
Post by: Jiggyfly on February 16, 2012, 03:12:44 AM
If CCS doesn't change the rules, I'm in for the gentlemans agreement for "supersport" mods.
Anyone else?
Title: Re: 2012 Ultralightweight Thunderbike?
Post by: clarustnb on February 16, 2012, 04:23:18 AM
So all of this 250 talk is making me curious - rough ball park figures what is the cost difference?
i.e. SS = $4k worth of bike
a modest SB = $5k? $10k? $25k

I guess from an outside view and as a guy who is getting ready to start reproducing I'm looking to shave a few grand off of my racing budget next year and would hang up the SV for this if I could compare it to the LW SS grids.
Title: Re: 2012 Ultralightweight Thunderbike?
Post by: vance on February 16, 2012, 07:05:24 AM
Quote from: clarustnb on February 16, 2012, 04:23:18 AM
So all of this 250 talk is making me curious - rough ball park figures what is the cost difference?
i.e. SS = $4k worth of bike
a modest SB = $5k? $10k? $25k

I guess from an outside view and as a guy who is getting ready to start reproducing I'm looking to shave a few grand off of my racing budget next year and would hang up the SV for this if I could compare it to the LW SS grids.
$2000 for the bike from Walter already piped and jetted
$750 for sharkskins (not necessary)
$800 for Ed Sorbo to set up suspension for 180# (probably not necassary)
$300 weekends including travel fuel until I buy tires, which will be $250 some time in the year 2032! :)
Title: Re: 2012 Ultralightweight Thunderbike?
Post by: roadracer162 on February 16, 2012, 08:16:01 AM
Quote from: vance on February 15, 2012, 11:32:24 PM
J
I know nobody gives a shit, but my slow ass turned laps 3.5 seconds off the winner's pace last weekend.  Last time I was on a 600 at Homestead it was, oh I don't know.... 15 seconds or so off lead pace???
So the point is, at the end of the race, the leader was at least in freakin' site of my average ass and it felt good.  That bike is going to sit in the garage AS IS and the things I need to get faster don't involve $$$$.  After racing a 1000, 600, 125, ex500 and now the 250, there's no better bike for an average rider looking to have fun and still FEEL like there's a chance to hang with the guys winning.  I don't know how to "build" a bike, but that was one less thing I needed to be concerned with.
How many threads are here that start off:  "New to racing and wondering what bike to get.."  The response?  "SV and LEARN TO RIDE.  Don't sink a bunch of money into a bike, bla bla...."
What's it cost to put an SV on top of the podium?
What's it cost to put an ex250 on top of the podium?


As far as limited participation.....
I don't know the first thing about how to build a class and get guys to the grid.  I only know why I chose to race the 250 and this news is disappointing.


Vance,
can you get it done with the SV? Yes. The SV is still competitive in Ultralight Superbike and LW SS in many regions.

My little FZR400 has cost me $700 for purchase and prep to go racing. I make tires last the season only because i am not practicing that much on them. Tires last over 130 laps with lap times within 1 second from start to end of the tires.

To build the class it is good to talk it up. Get together with other potential and current 250 riders and get a petition signed by each in support of changing back to SS rules. I am sure as a group Kevin will listen. if the argument you make is reasonable and has strong points, what lease cold he say?

Mark
Title: Re: 2012 Ultralightweight Thunderbike?
Post by: clarustnb on February 16, 2012, 08:19:45 AM
Quote from: vance on February 16, 2012, 07:05:24 AM
$2000 for the bike from Walter already piped and jetted
$750 for sharkskins (not necessary)
$800 for Ed Sorbo to set up suspension for 180# (probably not necassary)
$300 weekends including travel fuel until I buy tires, which will be $250 some time in the year 2032! :)

Exactly what I was looking for! Thanks a bunch!
Title: Re: 2012 Ultralightweight Thunderbike?
Post by: vance on February 16, 2012, 09:42:56 AM
Quote from: majicMARKer on February 16, 2012, 08:16:01 AM
My little FZR400 has cost me $700 for purchase and prep to go racing.

To build the class it is good to talk it up. Get together with other potential and current 250 riders and get a petition signed by each in support of changing back to SS rules. I am sure as a group Kevin will listen. if the argument you make is reasonable and has strong points, what lease cold he say?

Mark
I have my ex500 sitting in a buddy's garage back in KY with no class to race in here in South FL.  It cost me about $1200 for everything and with an average rider turns times fast enough to finish on the podium in both DSS and Clubman.  If I'm going to have an obsolete bike I might as well sell the 250 and race the South FL region of WERA where I at least have a chance to hang with the other bikes on the grid, and that's not a threat to leave CCS.  I would much rather travel 2 hours to Homestead and PBIR than 6 hours minimum just to make the Jennings rounds.

As far as the 250 class is concerned, I've spent the money on the bike already and would like to enjoy the weekends racing it.  Now, if that means a spec class that's cool.  If it means that a handful of us make a gentlemen's agreement to limit the mods and have our own little battle inside the expanded class, that's fine too but I'm not sure how long that would hold together. 

For those reading who aren't aware of the 250 schedule, we were gridded behind the 125GP and ULSB race.  I'm not the type to crap in somebody else's sandbox and I know without CCS I don't have a place to play, but to say that opening the class up is the best way to JUSTIFY a full season schedule seems a bit odd to me.  You had 7 bikes gridded behind 2 existing races for a race that, quite frankly, had it not been for the other 250 riders, nobody would have even known about.
Title: Re: 2012 Ultralightweight Thunderbike?
Post by: Jiggyfly on February 16, 2012, 12:34:38 PM
......same with our race. We were tossed onto the back of another grid, (which is fine by me, unless the 250 grid grew to be the bigger one), so it doesn't add any time, really.
Title: Re: 2012 Ultralightweight Thunderbike?
Post by: Tri74x on February 16, 2012, 01:06:30 PM
I've been around a while and seen this scenario play out before. US twin sports, Seca II's, remember those? 50cc Derbys, and latest (and pretty damn cool) cb160 class in AHRMA. Lemans starts and everything. They all have in common the fact that they started out "spec" classes, but history has proven over and over that we as racers will ruin it (for the most part.) We can't help it, it's what we do as racers. To always push to go faster. We can keep this together for a while, but I'm telling you someone will find a hp or two with a "bent" rule. Then another, then another, you get the idea. I suspect that CCS HQ is well aware of this and just went straight to the inevitable and penned the rules as such.

That being said, I'm strongly in favor of keeping it SS- or stock, or however you guys call it. CHEAP. (hint* it's best how to increase the grids...) We can police ourselves for a while and as the grids get larger, we then will have the clout ($$ to ccs) to discuss further refinement of the rules. Split am/ex, create unlimited ULTB for those who have money to burn, etc...

I just want to race, and will race as long as my bike is eligible. I will however disqualify myself if I can ever finish a race (a win that is...) You guys (and girls- sorry) can have the points. Just let me have a trophy once in a while!

Jason
Title: Re: 2012 Ultralightweight Thunderbike?
Post by: roadracer162 on February 16, 2012, 02:40:03 PM
Good post Jason and right on point. Yeah I remember what you speak of, only I was not competing back then. I didn't have any money or medical insurance.

I agree get the participation and money, then use the clout to channel your class into what you want. Ultraight supersport would be stock inspired SV and Ducati 800 though just as it is Ultralight Superbike now. Typically an SV is racing up a class in Lightweight SS.

Mark
Title: Re: 2012 Ultralightweight Thunderbike?
Post by: CHIRINOM on February 16, 2012, 06:25:49 PM
Like most of you, the reason that I am participating in this class is because of the closeness of the machines when run stock and the minimal budget involved in campaigning it. I have raced 500's, 600's, SV650's, and 125 GP machines in my 15+ years of running with CCS. Due to the current economic climate I have not been able to race more than a hand full of races in a season for years. I had hopes that this would be my first full season since 2004.

This class as initially laid out in the 2011 rule book and as run this last week end at Homestead has been one of the most fun races I have participated in in years.

Sure there have been variations of Spec Style classes over the years however this is different. Why? Because we are using one of the most mass produced four stroke machines ever built, Parts are available, cheap, and the motorcycles actually perform. An example of this is last week end where James and I on bone stock 250's came up on EX500 and SV650 traffic from the ultra light super bike class ahead of us.

There is no reason for the rule change. As we can see by the response on this thread and after last week ends races at Homestead, racers who are campaigning this class want to keep it even and cheap. Continuing with the 2012 Ultra Light Thunder bike rules will surely kill the class and cost CCS an additional entry fee for those riders running multiple classes. If a rider wants to be able to perform unlimited modifications to a 250, they buy a Morawaki and run 125 GP. Even if the ulsb was all stock, the tires still cost a good penny and the difference in displacement is huge. If a rider should want to ride an economical bike, the 2011 Ultra Light Thunder bike where it run as a Super Sport class as advertised in the 2011 press release is the way to go. There will be riders entering an additional class and riders like me who want to be out there on a minimal budget and actually be competitive.

Please revert to the 2011 rule structure and let us race.
Title: Re: 2012 Ultralightweight Thunderbike?
Post by: Jiggyfly on February 16, 2012, 07:51:23 PM
The sad part about the 2012 rules is that if one guy built a 250 "superbike", & let's say for his $1500 he made 35 hp......it's still not "fast", but gives him a 5-7 hp (maybe as much as 10 over some!) advantage over the supersport spec bikes, which is a huge percentage gain. That guy would clobber everyone else on the grid.
Title: Re: 2012 Ultralightweight Thunderbike?
Post by: Drew424 on February 17, 2012, 11:29:09 AM
I am looking for an inexpensive way to increase my participation and race "seat time" in CCS-FL, I'm MORE than willing to pay CCS many more CCS racing fees, but not at the expense of building ANOTHER race bike to compete in the technology arms race....


If CCS-FL does not provide some controls over this 250 class, I'm out on this one.  In shopping for my 250cc, all I wanted to do was make sure it had good brakes, descent rubber and race skinz and then GO RACING...with equally motivated folks on equally set up race bikes...


I had no intention of another vicious cycle of spending money to keep up....it's not racing if I'm the only one who hasn't opted for the thinner head gasket, custom pistons, milled and ported head, on and on and on...no thanks, will practice on my mini-moto at the cart track instead.


Henry, please listen on this one, create an economical port of entry for adults and/or parents in a strapped economy to race or let their kids develop their racing via clear rules and strong oversight...


...with proper marketing this class should be a good feeder helping sustain future CCS-FL participation. Just think about the track day riders you've now opened up CCS weekends too, many take advantage of the low cost track day, would like to give racing a shot, but in NO WAY can they afford to equip and race their only 600/1000cc street bike with an $8,000 bank note on it, nor afford to jump in for another such bike equipped to compete....but after hanging around the racing paddock on that track day, they discover an affordable $1500-$2500 port of entry to the checkered flag via a spec class 250cc that does NOT need $400-$550 DOT race tires every few race weekend...for some, that is ALL they needed to hear to jump in and participate in CCS-FL...


...and those are numbers you can bank on.


Drew
757 Pilot



Title: Re: 2012 Ultralightweight Thunderbike?
Post by: Jiggyfly on February 17, 2012, 12:00:44 PM
One more thing.....I was as every BHF round for basically the last 10 years, as a spectator. I raced supermoto after some years racing with CCS. I witnessed the paltry grids of 2010 & 2011!!!! I saw the races go from 35 amateur middleweight grids to 6! Now I'm talking about a grid of possibly 10 or more 250's at that same track in 2012!
Yeah......it was a new class last year......& the first race with it didn't happen until the last round of the season. There were 5 bikes.

There's growth for you. & I know every person that'll be on the grid, personally. & they all want SS spec. 
Title: Re: 2012 Ultralightweight Thunderbike?
Post by: Tri74x on February 17, 2012, 01:03:10 PM
Alright, if you want to do it, then do it. Complaining does nothing. We need to be specific and have unity in this effort. CCS won't do the work for us! First: somebody (Miguel?)- write the rules how you'd like to see them. Take your time and get it right. Second: send out to everyone you can so we can all comment and get them fully vetted. Once the draft is approved by everyone- we'll need ALL your signatures that says so.

Now we've got a rules proposal!

Forward this proposal (accompanied by all documentation) to CCS and respecfully request under Rule 1.2.1 "ASRA and CCS having promulgated these regulations may modify, add to, delete from, or grant exceptions to these regulations at any time." Also, CC Mr. DeGouw on any correspondance (I assume this rule change is just for Florida region?)
I know this may take a while, maybe even have to save it for a new rule proposal for next year. If so, we've got this year to get some more bikes signed on. Or hell, they may just OK it right off the bat and issued an addendum. Don't know till we try.

Point is: CCS is a business, not a day care center. Address it as such and we might very well prevail.

Jason

Title: Re: 2012 Ultralightweight Thunderbike?
Post by: vance on February 17, 2012, 01:51:57 PM
Good post, Jason.
I'm in.  I'm willing to pre-register for the remaining Fl rounds and have drafted a letter stating the same to show my commitment to this effort.  As far as what happens in the meantime, I can promise all of you, my bike will sit in the garage untouched from round to round.  I don't have the ability or the time to "build" it.  That was the whole point of this class for me; a bike that I can roll off the trailer, race, and then stick in the corner of the garage until the next round.
Title: Re: 2012 Ultralightweight Thunderbike?
Post by: Tri74x on February 17, 2012, 03:57:06 PM
Cool. Anybody else? What say ye? I'll sign on and help where I can but I ain't writing it. I'll be effectively eliminating my bike from the class and don't know diddly about the 250's anyway. I understand specclassracing has a facebook thingy. Maybe we can all join so better to communicate/view new rule proposals, talk to each other, etc.. if he would be so gracious to host. Rule shouldn't be that hard really. Other race organizations run "super-stock" 250's? Just cut/paste their rule and tweak how you like. Communicate here or facebook or e-mail, then when we all like it- meet up a race or two to get everyones signature and pop it in the mail.
Then, sit back knowing your badass for getting shite done.
Title: Re: 2012 Ultralightweight Thunderbike?
Post by: MAZZ77X on February 17, 2012, 05:56:55 PM
Quote from: Jiggyfly on February 15, 2012, 07:11:44 PM
If you actually read the posts.....were lobbying FORa stock class, & CCS made the rules for allowing UNLIMITED mods as long as you stay 250cc's

I'm pretty sure thats what he wants as well.................
Title: Re: 2012 Ultralightweight Thunderbike?
Post by: Jiggyfly on February 17, 2012, 11:29:57 PM
Easy-

Call it "250 Supersport" (everyone knows what this means)
Allow the other displacement/configurations listed in the current rule book. (although I have to feel that a 35+hp 250f MX bike would run away from a ninja 250)
Allow 17" wheel upgrades & 08+ fork conversions.

Mix until stirred & serve.
Title: Re: 2012 Ultralightweight Thunderbike?
Post by: bruce71198 on February 18, 2012, 09:05:22 AM
Jiggy, the moriwaki fits this class ?
Title: Re: 2012 Ultralightweight Thunderbike?
Post by: Jiggyfly on February 18, 2012, 09:43:22 AM
Isn't that in a GP chassis?
Title: Re: 2012 Ultralightweight Thunderbike?
Post by: bruce71198 on February 18, 2012, 11:07:50 AM
Check this;
6.4 THUNDERBIKE [/size]- Thunderbike machines, except single cylinder machines, are
based upon production models, sold by manufacturers and their dealers in North
America for street use. Proof of compliance rests with the competitor entering the
motorcycle. Single cylinder and 250 GP machines are exempt from production and[/b]

street use requirements.
[/size]All machines must have unaltered VIN numbers
Title: Re: 2012 Ultralightweight Thunderbike?
Post by: Knedragon on February 18, 2012, 11:36:26 AM
The Moriwaki(and yes its stock  :lmao: ) was in the 37's at Homestead (quickest I ran there was a 36.3) .... not sure if in the right hands a Kawi 250 would be anywhere near that??
Title: Re: 2012 Ultralightweight Thunderbike?
Post by: Jiggyfly on February 18, 2012, 11:38:59 AM
Add: NO GP chassis in ULW.


Good catch, Bruce!
Title: Re: 2012 Ultralightweight Thunderbike?
Post by: Jiggyfly on February 18, 2012, 11:41:00 AM
Quote from: Knedragon on February 18, 2012, 11:36:26 AM
The Moriwaki(and yes its stock  :lmao: ) was in the 37's at Homestead (quickest I ran there was a 36.3) .... not sure if in the right hands a Kawi 250 would be anywhere near that??

In short.....no. A Moriwaki should crush an ex250
Title: Re: 2012 Ultralightweight Thunderbike?
Post by: Jiggyfly on February 18, 2012, 11:45:51 AM
I went faster at BHF on a Redbull Rookie Cup practice bike on intermediates, in 2 sessions, than I did my 250.
Title: Re: 2012 Ultralightweight Thunderbike?
Post by: Jiggyfly on February 19, 2012, 04:44:37 AM
Fwiw; I have zero issues writing, (read copy & paste!) a set of rules!
Title: Re: 2012 Ultralightweight Thunderbike?
Post by: bruce71198 on February 20, 2012, 03:28:02 PM
This is the complete response I received from an e-mail to Kevin asking him to consider a rule change;
I apologize for not responding to each email separately but I am "behind the eight ball" on several important projects already.

The rules were relaxed to promote participation since last season we had all of three riders compete in the class all season. The  most common complaint was they didn't have a "SuperSport" legal Ninja 250 so we are stuck between a rock and a hard place.

There will be no change in the class for 2012 but if you can show us the good faith by participating in the Ultralight ThunderBike class in 2012, we can discuss a SuperSport 250 class for 2013. But we need the participation to show this is viable so do not withhold your support of the current class or it may disappear altogether. (We are trying to give you a place to race, so show us some support please.)

Obviously others sent him an e-mail requesting the same. So no change in rules, can we all just agree to run SS spec and show him our good faith and hope for a change next year?
Title: Re: 2012 Ultralightweight Thunderbike?
Post by: twilkinson3 on February 20, 2012, 03:36:54 PM
Don't hope, make a point of petitioning for the change in 2013 and get support behind it.  Write the rule set as described above and use this forum as a sounding board for the final result - basically we as a group have the time to look at it in detail now, might as well do so and present a good case for the class and a rules package that everyone can agree to...then I can hope it's not run at the same time as the Ultralight or lightweight races and actually find a bike to come play with lol
Title: Re: 2012 Ultralightweight Thunderbike?
Post by: Knedragon on February 23, 2012, 07:38:51 PM
so according to the rule book the Moriwaki is legal for Ultra Lightweight Thunder bike  :ahhh:
Title: Re: 2012 Ultralightweight Thunderbike?
Post by: roadracer162 on February 23, 2012, 07:58:33 PM
Go for it Steve.
Title: Re: 2012 Ultralightweight Thunderbike?
Post by: MAZZ77X on February 23, 2012, 09:02:15 PM
Quote from: Knedragon on February 23, 2012, 07:38:51 PM
so according to the rule book the Moriwaki is legal for Ultra Lightweight Thunder bike  :ahhh:

I hope not. We do have a Mori but I want the kid to run the Ninja as a second bike this season. I feel he needs to learn how to make a fat slow bike go fast too.
Title: Re: 2012 Ultralightweight Thunderbike?
Post by: Knedragon on February 23, 2012, 09:20:31 PM
Quote from: majicMARKer on February 23, 2012, 07:58:33 PM
Go for it Steve.

I may have to run the RS250 in Thunderbike too  :biggrin:
Title: Re: 2012 Ultralightweight Thunderbike?
Post by: roadracer162 on February 23, 2012, 09:48:16 PM
Quote from: Knedragon on February 23, 2012, 09:20:31 PM

I may have to run the RS250 in Thunderbike too  :biggrin:

Yeah, that would be a challenge to keep up with you.
Title: Re: 2012 Ultralightweight Thunderbike?
Post by: vance on February 23, 2012, 10:11:02 PM
Quote from: Knedragon on February 23, 2012, 09:20:31 PM

I may have to run the RS250 in Thunderbike too  :biggrin:
Has there ever been a race where 2nd place was a lap down?
Title: Re: 2012 Ultralightweight Thunderbike?
Post by: Jiggyfly on February 24, 2012, 03:31:18 AM
The example of "GP chassis", such as RS250, or TZ125 is allowed in THUNDERbike.....not necessarily ultra light weight thunder bike. It still has to match the displacement rules first & foremost.

& specifically the 125's aren't allowed in the class.
& an RS250 is  twin, so not allowed.
Title: Re: 2012 Ultralightweight Thunderbike?
Post by: Cowboy 6 on February 24, 2012, 07:03:16 AM
The Kawi is a twin too....
Title: Re: 2012 Ultralightweight Thunderbike?
Post by: roadracer162 on February 24, 2012, 08:20:03 AM
Quote from: Jiggyfly on February 24, 2012, 03:31:18 AM
The example of "GP chassis", such as RS250, or TZ125 is allowed in THUNDERbike.....not necessarily ultra light weight thunder bike. It still has to match the displacement rules first & foremost.

& specifically the 125's aren't allowed in the class.
& an RS250 is  twin, so not allowed.

But the Moriwaki is a GP chassis and is a 250 which by the reading of the rules is legal unless there is some formal announcement.

All GP machines get and exemption from the street production rule so they can compete in Thunderbike.

With that in mind, I would like to race my Ducati 748 against the RS250 in all the classes that the RS250 is legal. These classes are Gt lights, Lightweight Grand-prix, Lightweight formula 40, and Thunderbike.

Mark
Title: Re: 2012 Ultralightweight Thunderbike?
Post by: vance on February 24, 2012, 08:48:51 AM
GP bikes are allowed in TB. The only one that fits the ULTB class is the Moriwaki.

ULTRALIGHT THUNDERBIKE (Amateur and Expert Combined)
Single cylinder, four-stroke liquid cooled, 250cc
Twin cylinder, air cooled, 350cc
Twin cylinder, four-stroke liquid cooled, up to 250cc

The RS and TZ's are 2 strokes, so not included in the class.
Again, you could run the Moriwaki but we are gridded behind them in the same race.
Title: Re: 2012 Ultralightweight Thunderbike?
Post by: Jiggyfly on February 24, 2012, 12:54:01 PM
Quote from: Cowboy 6 on February 24, 2012, 07:03:16 AM
The Kawi is a twin too....

Yes, but not a 2 stroke twin.

Yes, the moriwaki, technically is legal.....however, if CCS should specifically appeal any portion of this rule, that SHOULD be it!
If a 125 isn't allowed, then a Moriwaki certainly shouldn't be!
Title: Re: 2012 Ultralightweight Thunderbike?
Post by: Jiggyfly on February 24, 2012, 01:40:23 PM
I've emailed Kevin Elliot on the Moriwaki issue.
I'm guessing, at this point in time, that he's regretting adding ULTB! :D
Title: Re: 2012 Ultralightweight Thunderbike?
Post by: roadracer162 on February 24, 2012, 02:41:06 PM
There you go jiffy trying to make sense of it all :)
Title: Re: 2012 Ultralightweight Thunderbike?
Post by: Knedragon on February 24, 2012, 04:18:01 PM
Quote from: majicMARKer on February 24, 2012, 02:41:06 PM
There you go jiffy trying to make sense of it all :)

Mark thats the way I read it .... Moriwaki is good for Ultra Lightweight Thunder bike and the Honda RS250 is legal for Thunder bike.Hey Mark which race # is the Thunder bike race on HD's schedule? # 15 or 16 ??
Title: Re: 2012 Ultralightweight Thunderbike?
Post by: vance on February 24, 2012, 05:46:30 PM
Guys.... I don see us on the RRR tentative schedule.....
Am I missing it?
Title: Re: 2012 Ultralightweight Thunderbike?
Post by: bruce71198 on February 24, 2012, 06:04:47 PM
jiggy, dont expect anything soon.
Title: Re: 2012 Ultralightweight Thunderbike?
Post by: Race125 on February 24, 2012, 09:03:24 PM
Quote from: Knedragon on February 24, 2012, 04:18:01 PM
Mark thats the way I read it .... Moriwaki is good for Ultra Lightweight Thunder bike and the Honda RS250 is legal for Thunder bike.Hey Mark which race # is the Thunder bike race on HD's schedule? # 15 or 16 ??
It is race # 16 - The 125 is eligible too
Title: Re: 2012 Ultralightweight Thunderbike?
Post by: Jiggyfly on February 24, 2012, 11:35:22 PM
No, the 125 is not legal.....I've received emails specifying this. And if it's not, the Moriwaki certainly shouldn't be.
Title: Re: 2012 Ultralightweight Thunderbike?
Post by: Jiggyfly on February 24, 2012, 11:40:15 PM
And I can tell you that If 125's and Moriwakis are allowed in ULTB, my Ninja 250 will be in the classifieds as soon as I get that clarified.

Neither are good or right for the class. I got lapped at BHF by the 2 other entries in 125gp. I was the 3rd & last entry. 2nd place didn't do lap times that I did on my 125 thirteen years ago, AND STILL LAPPED ME!

You tell me that's fair and good for the class!!!!
Title: Re: 2012 Ultralightweight Thunderbike?
Post by: CHIRINOM on February 25, 2012, 02:06:01 AM
In the very least the Morawaki should be excluded. It is like lining up a Ferrari next to a Volkswagen GTI. I am sure that if every racer tuned into this blog we would be ok but it could be a potential problem at any moment. It is worth addressing, now that we are in the beginning of the season.

Come to think of it. If a Morawaki is legal then, the 125GP, SV650, and Ducati 800 should be legal as well. They all race in ULSB against each other with  anyway.
Title: Re: 2012 Ultralightweight Thunderbike?
Post by: Knedragon on February 25, 2012, 10:32:40 AM
Quote from: Jiggyfly on February 24, 2012, 11:35:22 PM
No, the 125 is not legal.....I've received emails specifying this. And if it's not, the Moriwaki certainly shouldn't be.
I you read his post without jumping the gun,Morty is talking about the 125 being eligible for Thunderbike,as well as the 250  :pop:
Title: Re: 2012 Ultralightweight Thunderbike?
Post by: Knedragon on February 25, 2012, 10:34:00 AM
We didn't write the rulebook,we're just following it  :lmao:
Title: Re: 2012 Ultralightweight Thunderbike?
Post by: apriliaman on February 25, 2012, 12:18:50 PM
The bike has to be a streetbike only.So the Morawaki 250 is a GP bike not for the street, race only, so you cannot race it in that class.
Title: Re: 2012 Ultralightweight Thunderbike?
Post by: Race125 on February 25, 2012, 12:58:43 PM
Quote from: apriliaman on February 25, 2012, 12:18:50 PM
The bike has to be a streetbike only.So the Morawaki 250 is a GP bike not for the street, race only, so you cannot race it in that class.

Facts: Fresh from the rulebook:
Thunderbike machines, except single cylinder machines, are
based upon production models, sold by manufacturers and their dealers in North
America for street use.

This makes the Moriwaki legal in ULTB
Title: Re: 2012 Ultralightweight Thunderbike?
Post by: apriliaman on February 25, 2012, 01:34:47 PM
If that is correct then if you have a ninja 250 that has 30hp and is 2x the weight of the Moriwaki ,how would be able to catch up? The moriwakis some can have 40hp and they weigh under 200lbs.
I dont race in this class but I like to watch it.
Title: Re: 2012 Ultralightweight Thunderbike?
Post by: Knedragon on February 25, 2012, 01:48:50 PM
Time for more Moriwaki's no pun intended  :kicknuts:
Title: Re: 2012 Ultralightweight Thunderbike?
Post by: roadracer162 on February 25, 2012, 04:06:50 PM
Steve, for you the race number is #15 and for me it is #16. I can't keep up with you with my Ducati 748 yet I am not allowed to race against you in GT Lights or LW GP.

Mark, the Moriwaki is legal in UL TB even though I believe it shouldn't. I do believe opening up the rules is a good thing for more participation and if there is a strong turn out this year then next year add the ULT thunderbike/supersport or something like that. I do believe that there are still enough SV riders that a utralightweight supersport class could be made so the 250 spec class could be called superstock.
Title: Re: 2012 Ultralightweight Thunderbike?
Post by: Jiggyfly on February 25, 2012, 06:12:08 PM
I'll rescind my earlier statement about selling my 250 Ninja.
Instead I'll race WERA, which has their shit together.

Really? A Moriwaki against a Ninja 250? .....I guess for the guys that like to cherry pick & buy a race win, vs racing on equal machinery.....the way the class was originally intended. Not blaming you guys, but even you know it's not fair.....
Hopefully CCS figures this much out. If not, at least I haven't paid for my license yet!!!!
Title: Re: 2012 Ultralightweight Thunderbike?
Post by: roadracer162 on February 25, 2012, 06:28:57 PM
Quote from: Jiggyfly on February 25, 2012, 06:12:08 PM
I'll rescind my earlier statement about selling my 250 Ninja.
Instead I'll race WERA, which has their shit together.

Really? A Moriwaki against a Ninja 250? .....I guess for the guys that like to cherry pick & buy a race win, vs racing on equal machinery.....the way the class was originally intended. Not blaming you guys, but even you know it's not fair.....
Hopefully CCS figures this much out. If not, at least I haven't paid for my license yet!!!!

I'm fairly sure they have.
Title: Re: 2012 Ultralightweight Thunderbike?
Post by: CHIRINOM on February 25, 2012, 06:41:42 PM
Is that Steve and Morty giving us a hard time? Lol.

Guys,

The Morawaki's and 125's have a class already. Jump on board and buy Ninja 250's. They are a blast, they even the field, and cheap! If we eventually have our own Super Sport race, maybe I will buid a Migiwaki by dropping a 250 motor in my TZ and come after you in 125 GP.

So far we have an awesome Ninja 250 grid in Florida. We are 10 strong in with another dozen prospective riders looking to join in.

This season is going to be a blast!
Title: Re: 2012 Ultralightweight Thunderbike?
Post by: Knedragon on February 25, 2012, 11:07:27 PM
Quote from: Jiggyfly on February 25, 2012, 06:12:08 PM
I'll rescind my earlier statement about selling my 250 Ninja.
Instead I'll race WERA, which has their shit together.

Really? A Moriwaki against a Ninja 250? .....I guess for the guys that like to cherry pick & buy a race win, vs racing on equal machinery.....the way the class was originally intended. Not blaming you guys, but even you know it's not fair.....
Hopefully CCS figures this much out. If not, at least I haven't paid for my license yet!!!!
wow  :wah:  ... its all in good fun,for those that do know me know I wouldn't bother running the Moriwaki in that class!!There is no point and I have no point to prove to anyone.I'll just beat up some Thunderbikes though on the 250 of course  :spank:
Title: Re: 2012 Ultralightweight Thunderbike?
Post by: roadracer162 on February 26, 2012, 08:16:03 AM
Quote from: Knedragon on February 25, 2012, 11:07:27 PM
wow  :wah:  ... its all in good fun,for those that do know me know I wouldn't bother running the Moriwaki in that class!!There is no point and I have no point to prove to anyone.I'll just beat up some Thunderbikes though on the 250 of course  :spank:

Bring it!
Title: Re: 2012 Ultralightweight Thunderbike?
Post by: vance on February 26, 2012, 10:07:50 AM
1st, I would say WERA has their shit together because they've got a 3 (give or take) year head start on CCS with this class.  Trust me, if you followed the thread that was closed over there you know it wasn't a pain free process setting this class up.
We racers are a bitchy group, for certain!  :biggrin:


2nd, I emailed Eric for the times for Homestead race #7 to compare:
James' 250 (Expert) 1:56.088
Miguel's 250 (Expert) 1:56.111
Am 250's 1:59-2:02
Jason's 350 1:56.239


That, to me, can't get any better!  To my previous point it's good for the class IMO if the AMs are at least in gun shot of the EXs at the end of the race.


Now to the Moriwaki...
Dillon Tuttle 1:51.570
I don't know Dillon Tuttle, but IMO when an AM youth can run 4+ seconds faster than the experts who he would potentially race against then that seems to create some problems for the class.
I have the results emailed to me for race #7 and if anyone would like to present this in a CALM manner  :biggrin:  to Eric, I'm sure CCS will see the problem and choose to eliminate GP bikes from the class.
Anyway, buy a freakin' 250 and fill the grids and all of this crap won't matter.  Put 250's and even 350's on the grid and then use it as a bargaining tool to get our own class.
Title: Re: 2012 Ultralightweight Thunderbike?
Post by: Knedragon on February 26, 2012, 12:08:00 PM
Quote from: vance on February 26, 2012, 10:07:50 AM
Anyway, buy a freakin' 250 and fill the grids and all of this crap won't matter.  Put 250's and even 350's on the grid and then use it as a bargaining tool to get our own class.
Or get some moriwakis and 125's and keep a proven class alive.Nothing is more rewarding when a 2 stroke is in full song and everything falls into place.The Moriwaki is a close 2nd :-) ... these bikes are tools for the younger kids to get into racing and for us older guys who don't want to buy a new bike every year.
Title: Re: 2012 Ultralightweight Thunderbike?
Post by: Race125 on February 26, 2012, 12:12:20 PM
Quote from: Knedragon on February 26, 2012, 12:08:00 PM
Or get some moriwakis and 125's and keep a proven class alive.Nothing is more rewarding when a 2 stroke is in full song and everything falls into place.The Moriwaki is a close 2nd :-) ... these bikes are tools for the younger kids to get into racing and for us older guys who don't want to buy a new bike every year.

Music to my ears  :thumb: I am looking to get a 250 but if will be a GP bike
Title: Re: 2012 Ultralightweight Thunderbike?
Post by: vance on February 26, 2012, 12:42:39 PM
Quote from: Knedragon on February 26, 2012, 12:08:00 PM
Or get some moriwakis and 125's and keep a proven class alive.Nothing is more rewarding when a 2 stroke is in full song and everything falls into place.The Moriwaki is a close 2nd :-) ... these bikes are tools for the younger kids to get into racing and for us older guys who don't want to buy a new bike every year.
The GP is and always will be a proven class. It will probably evolve away from the smokers as MotoGP moves away from them. The class will still be the starter class for serious young racers.
I've owned a 125 before and must say its the most fun I've ever had on the track. But... I don't have the time or the mech ability to run a 2 stroke every year.
The 250's are a proven class on the wera grid and may be here as well given some time. This is not the class for up and coming young racers who have the pockets to really race. I was looking at Moriwakis before they announced the 250 spec class. $8,000 was the cheapest I could find used race ready. That's a big jump in price from a 1st gen $1,000 ninja that will be competitive.
Everyone will have their own reason for trying this class. For some it may be tire/race cost, supply of cheap machines, no required mech knowledge, etc. 
The GP class might provide some of these attractions but it definitely doesn't provide all of them like the 250 class.
I'm keeping track of expenses this year but my estimate will be $7,000 for the bike and 10 rounds and that will drop to $3,500 next year.  You can't come close to that on a Moriwaki, or am I wrong?
Title: Re: 2012 Ultralightweight Thunderbike?
Post by: Jiggyfly on February 26, 2012, 12:46:23 PM
@ knedragon: it wasn't pointed at you, but that's cool.

I'm talking more about, let's say Daytona ROC.....what kind of bikes do you think will be on the top 3 steps there?
Sounds like a great way to pad Jr's resume, "yep, little Johnny here took his bike with 10 more hp, & 150lbs lighter & whipped all of 'em to win a national championship!"

:D

Hell, if I had one, I'd do it....there's no asterisk next to your trophy. :D
It's exploitation of a bad set of rules.
Title: Re: 2012 Ultralightweight Thunderbike?
Post by: Jiggyfly on February 26, 2012, 12:51:00 PM
Quote from: vance on February 26, 2012, 12:42:39 PM
The GP is and always will be a proven class. It will probably evolve away from the smokers as MotoGP moves away from them. The class will still be the starter class for serious young racers.
I've owned a 125 before and must say its the most fun I've ever had on the track. But... I don't have the time or the mech ability to run a 2 stroke every year.
The 250's are a proven class on the wera grid and may be here as well given some time. This is not the class for up and coming young racers who have the pockets to really race. I was looking at Moriwakis before they announced the 250 spec class. $8,000 was the cheapest I could find used race ready. That's a big jump in price from a 1st gen $1,000 ninja that will be competitive.
Everyone will have their own reason for trying this class. For some it may be tire/race cost, supply of cheap machines, no required mech knowledge, etc. 
The GP class might provide some of these attractions but it definitely doesn't provide all of them like the 250 class.
I'm keeping track of expenses this year but my estimate will be $7,000 for the bike and 10 rounds and that will drop to $3,500 next year.  You can't come close to that on a Moriwaki, or am I wrong?

^^
This!


125's are dead. I raced one, too. It was a blast! But it's a dead class. Last year in the Midwest sometimes there were only 2. On good weekends, 3.

First ULWTB race last year, 5 bikes.
Title: Re: 2012 Ultralightweight Thunderbike?
Post by: roadracer162 on February 26, 2012, 02:03:48 PM
For the comparison of WERA to CCS(old conversation) I think WERA is more rider skill inclined and CCS is more towards the bike builder. For me being old and not wanting to go lose weight to compete, HP is the great equalizer. Of course me on my Ducati 800 racing against the Bimotas and Ducati DS1000/1200 I have no HP advantage, yet I am still somewhat competitive. So my choice has been CCS. Having the tracks in my back yard helps too. WERA's closest race is 6 1/2 hours. I also like using the odd or old bike to race against the competition that has the commonplace bike/package. It's unbelievable to me seeing the performance of my FZR600 being matched by the SV650 and and Ducati 1000 which are considered lightweight. The FZR600 is considered a middleweight bike

I just don't believe the little GP class is dead because in Florida it is still healthy enough. It does make a good starter class on a del race bike. With the Moto3 coming into play I am sure there will be more Moriwaki like riders and bike combinations which can only be good.
Title: Re: 2012 Ultralightweight Thunderbike?
Post by: CHIRINOM on February 26, 2012, 03:39:06 PM
The 125 class is always expanding and contracting. Definitely a place in my heart for the class. If the budget and class structure were there, I would still be running both.

Once a rider can get past the bigger is better mentality, the 125 will show them a thing or two about carrying serious corner speed and being consistent. It is the next best bang for your buck behind a 250 Super Sport class.

I hope that the other ULTB riders out there are on the same page as the ones on this forum. It is frustrating that we have to deal with the possibility of showing up and being out classed, but it is what it is. I too would like to have a fair shot at the Daytona ROC this year.
Title: Re: 2012 Ultralightweight Thunderbike?
Post by: roadracer162 on February 26, 2012, 05:06:13 PM
i might have to borrow one just to race Daytona
Title: Re: 2012 Ultralightweight Thunderbike?
Post by: Knedragon on February 26, 2012, 05:27:36 PM
Quote from: CHIRINOM on February 26, 2012, 03:39:06 PM
I hope that the other ULTB riders out there are on the same page as the ones on this forum. It is frustrating that we have to deal with the possibility of showing up and being out classed, but it is what it is. I too would like to have a fair shot at the Daytona ROC this year.
I'll make you a gentlemans agreement,you won't see me at Daytona with any of my bikes :-) .... that goes for VIR,Loudon and more then likely PBIR as well
Title: Re: 2012 Ultralightweight Thunderbike?
Post by: apriliaman on February 27, 2012, 03:12:49 PM
Did you know for Thunderbike it says   2 stroke unlimited displacement
Does that mean that i can run a 2001  500cc moto gp bike?????
Or an old yamaha tz 750???
Title: Re: 2012 Ultralightweight Thunderbike?
Post by: Race125 on February 27, 2012, 08:17:52 PM
Is it single cylinder? Guess not
Title: Re: 2012 Ultralightweight Thunderbike?
Post by: roadracer162 on February 27, 2012, 09:46:17 PM
Morten, Thunderbike is split into two classes. There is the Ultralight Thunderbike where it was intended for the 250 four stroke, and then opened up to include a couple more configurations. Then there is the traditional Thunderbike class where the once Heavyweight sportsman would run. The traditional Thunderbike class was opened up the to GP machines as did GT Lights and Lw F40 where the 250gp bike now runs. The GP chassis has been given an exemption from production base allowing them to be run. Doesn't matter if it is single cylinder.

Mark
Title: Re: 2012 Ultralightweight Thunderbike?
Post by: Knedragon on February 28, 2012, 12:07:53 AM
Gotta dust off the old NSR 500 Twin  :boink:
Title: Re: 2012 Ultralightweight Thunderbike?
Post by: Race125 on February 28, 2012, 08:32:34 PM
Mark, I read the rule book. This is what I was referring to:
6.4 THUNDERBIKE - Thunderbike machines, except single cylinder machines, are
based upon production models, sold by manufacturers and their dealers in North
America for street use.

It had nothing to do with the exemption for single cylinder and 250GP machines

Morten
Title: Re: 2012 Ultralightweight Thunderbike?
Post by: roadracer162 on February 28, 2012, 09:28:13 PM
Understand.
Title: Re: 2012 Ultralightweight Thunderbike?
Post by: Gino230 on February 28, 2012, 11:50:26 PM
Hey Steve,

Just curious, what kind of times do you run on your TZ250 at Homestead? Last few times I raced against you it was on your 125 (or diesel equivalent ;))

It seems crazy that LWThunderbike would allow GP chassis- I don't think that was the intent of the class- however times are tough and clubs need entries. Hence the reason we are going to Savannah vs. Daytona this March.

As for the 2stroke 250's, hey...... the more, the merrier! I just think if I have to race you in Thunderbike, you should have to deal with ME and my 749 in GT Lights and LWGP as well!
Title: Re: 2012 Ultralightweight Thunderbike?
Post by: Knedragon on February 29, 2012, 08:54:23 AM
Gino ..... RS250 here  :thumb: no Yamahas in my hands.On an average I'd say 1:32 .... if the stars line up 30's all day.Little bike its a crap shoot, I know I can do 35-36 just the pucker factor keeps holding me up so I see 37's and 38's  :kicknuts:
Title: Re: 2012 Ultralightweight Thunderbike?
Post by: Gino230 on February 29, 2012, 10:59:56 AM
Quote from: Knedragon on February 29, 2012, 08:54:23 AM
Gino ..... RS250 here  :thumb: no Yamahas in my hands.

Jeez how did I not know that?
Title: Re: 2012 Ultralightweight Thunderbike?
Post by: roadracer162 on February 29, 2012, 11:08:09 AM
Quote from: Gino230 on February 29, 2012, 10:59:56 AM
Jeez how did I not know that?

Age!
Title: Re: 2012 Ultralightweight Thunderbike?
Post by: Knedragon on February 29, 2012, 12:38:32 PM
Quote from: majicMARKer on February 29, 2012, 11:08:09 AM
Age!
Seems to be getting the best of us !!
Title: Re: 2012 Ultralightweight Thunderbike?
Post by: fzr400tony on March 08, 2012, 07:28:38 PM
I'm probably talking a little bit out of school here, because I'm not a Ninja 250 guy.  But I love watching the class.  I even thought about buying one, but it seemed like you only really have one class to race. 

LRRS used to have a Production Twins class for the Penguin school EX500's (maybe they still do).  It was stock pipes and a bunch of other stock parts, keep the class CHEAP!!!  Since the 250's are always gridded with another class, why not have two classes for them ULTB and something like "250 production" with rules similar to the LRRS stuff that's gridded behind another class.  It seems to me like the best way to grow the class and fill up grids.

Not that I have any say in anything.  Just my $.02
Title: Re: 2012 Ultralightweight Thunderbike?
Post by: HappySV on March 09, 2012, 07:16:32 AM
http://www.motorcycle-usa.com/811/12426/Motorcycle-Article/Backmarker--Racing-Inflation.aspx

GREAT read.  I honestly thought long and hard about trying this class, but when I saw it was going to be a builders class like some of the lightweight classes I wrote off the idea.  Food for thought CCS - even some of us old guys want a competitive cheap class for the lean times.

Brian
CCS 757 (backmarker expert)
Title: Re: 2012 Ultralightweight Thunderbike?
Post by: Tri74x on March 12, 2012, 12:56:11 PM
Good read indeed. In all fairness, I think by year two those Seattle guys were getting busy with their engine builds anyway. AHRMA likes them because they can "bump" into 200GP, so logically you'd build your motor to 200cc (plus 60 thou over if you desired.) You'd be competivie in TWO races this way. The racing is awesome although the original spirit is gone. Still- I don't believe you'd need anywhere near the amount of money quoted in the article for an engine. Maybe if you outsourced everything and shipped every piece next day.... maybe. The good thing we have, where these guys did not- is a set of rules. Yes, not as tight as some wish, but hopefully can keep our "spirit" alive a bit longer than the norm.
Title: Re: 2012 Ultralightweight Thunderbike?
Post by: truckstop on March 13, 2012, 02:49:09 PM
Quote from: Jiggyfly on February 24, 2012, 11:40:15 PMNeither are good or right for the class. I got lapped at BHF by the 2 other entries in 125gp. I was the 3rd & last entry. 2nd place didn't do lap times that I did on my 125 thirteen years ago, AND STILL LAPPED ME!

You tell me that's fair and good for the class!!!!

LOL. Sorry about that. I was thinking as I went by... "what the what?"

I was way off pace at RRR this weekend and I still went by the EX250s without much effort, absolutely definitely the MD250 and 125GP bikes don't belong anywhere near the ULTB class.

The 125GP class should look a little better this year, I know of 3 people who acquired bikes over the winter in the MW region.

When I get sick of messing with a two stroke, getting an EX250 is a strong possibility if I don't go for a Moriwaki.
Title: Re: 2012 Ultralightweight Thunderbike?
Post by: Jiggyfly on March 13, 2012, 09:13:47 PM
Thanks for checking in, & agreeing! :cheers:
Title: Re: 2012 Ultralightweight Thunderbike?
Post by: truckstop on March 13, 2012, 11:09:05 PM
No problem, even if you basically did call me slow, which is ok, because I am. ;)

I wish I would have read this thread earlier because I would have said hello this weekend to the other 250 riders. They had all their wee ninjas lined up next to my wee 125 for the photo op.
Title: Re: 2012 Ultralightweight Thunderbike?
Post by: twilkinson3 on March 14, 2012, 11:42:46 AM
Jen if the ULTB isn't run with ultra-light superbike I'd seriously be hunting a bike down and running it - looks like insane amounts of fun (plus the RA round I'm pretty sure you'd only have to let off the throttle in a couple three places hehe)
Title: Re: 2012 Ultralightweight Thunderbike?
Post by: truckstop on March 14, 2012, 12:25:16 PM
They paired ULTB with CCS Moto3 (125GP) at Roebling
Looks like ULTB with LWSS, and FMMW with ULWSB for Topeka.
No schedule up yet for RA
Title: Re: 2012 Ultralightweight Thunderbike?
Post by: Jiggyfly on March 14, 2012, 02:56:18 PM
Quote from: truckstop on March 13, 2012, 11:09:05 PM
No problem, even if you basically did call me slow, which is ok, because I am. ;)

I wish I would have read this thread earlier because I would have said hello this weekend to the other 250 riders. They had all their wee ninjas lined up next to my wee 125 for the photo op.

FWIW: I was actually talking about a race last year, at Blackhawk Farms.
I entered my ninja 250 in the GP singles race, & got lapped. The slowest rider still lapped me, even though I did faster lap times at BHF on my 125 over 10 years ago. Before a repave, with older tire technology.
Title: Re: 2012 Ultralightweight Thunderbike?
Post by: truckstop on March 14, 2012, 03:36:23 PM
Quote from: Jiggyfly on March 14, 2012, 02:56:18 PM
FWIW: I was actually talking about a race last year, at Blackhawk Farms.
I entered my ninja 250 in the GP singles race, & got lapped. The slowest rider still lapped me, even though I did faster lap times at BHF on my 125 over 10 years ago. Before a repave, with older tire technology.

Yes, I know. I was the 2nd place rider who lapped you. :)
Title: Re: 2012 Ultralightweight Thunderbike?
Post by: Jiggyfly on March 14, 2012, 08:41:41 PM
I looked....& there was actually 4 of us! So it was the 3rd place rider!  :biggrin:

Regardless.......what are your BHF times?
Title: Re: 2012 Ultralightweight Thunderbike?
Post by: Jiggyfly on March 14, 2012, 08:44:29 PM
Well, really the 4th place guy.....cuz I was 3rd.
Title: Re: 2012 Ultralightweight Thunderbike?
Post by: truckstop on March 14, 2012, 11:03:28 PM
Hmm... ok, now I can't remember. LOL. I think 4th place broke and didn't finish? He's not in the results and Marc had a lot of mechanical issues that weekend.



I think my best times at BHF on the 125 were around 1.25-26? That was my third weekend ever riding a 125. I've got 24 stuck in my head but I think that was my best time at Putnam. Goal this year is to get down to a flat 20. What'd you get out of the EX250?
Title: Re: 2012 Ultralightweight Thunderbike?
Post by: Jiggyfly on March 15, 2012, 07:18:34 AM
I think I did a 1:34 flat on the EX250, (ready for my excuses??? LOL)..... It was my first time on the lil Ninja.
I'm sure you recall, it rained right before the ULTB race & turn 7 was slipperyer than a snot bubble!!
Tip-toed in there, and baby stepped out.....so that in itself killed any good lap time potential.
I think :27's are possible there. It was also my first time back on BHF since 2003, & I was shocked at how much 1 & 7 had deteriorated!!! Thankfully, they've repaired both turns.

Where do you live? Which region are you going to be racing? 
Title: Re: 2012 Ultralightweight Thunderbike?
Post by: bruce71198 on March 15, 2012, 08:44:05 AM
Hey Jiggy, glad to see you guys out having fun befor me ! Does anyone know how the grid will be set up, in ULWTB, if there are experts and ameteurs entered?
Title: Re: 2012 Ultralightweight Thunderbike?
Post by: truckstop on March 15, 2012, 08:56:50 AM
Quote from: Jiggyfly on March 15, 2012, 07:18:34 AM
I think I did a 1:34 flat on the EX250, (ready for my excuses??? LOL)..... It was my first time on the lil Ninja.
I'm sure you recall, it rained right before the ULTB race & turn 7 was slipperyer than a snot bubble!!
Tip-toed in there, and baby stepped out.....so that in itself killed any good lap time potential.
I think :27's are possible there. It was also my first time back on BHF since 2003, & I was shocked at how much 1 & 7 had deteriorated!!! Thankfully, they've repaired both turns.

Where do you live? Which region are you going to be racing? 

My first time on the 125 was on a wet track with slicks. I think I did 41s. That's probably the slowest I've ever gone around BHF but it was by far the most fun I'd ever had and I was hooked on two-strokes. Anyway, a 34 sounds pretty good in comparison.

We're in 'Sconnie, so normally we'd be at all the BHF dates. Our plan this year though, was to only do USGPRU events until we run out of money or my husband's TZ250 breaks past the point of us having the means to fix it. He'll be doing some Team Challenge too. I'm undecided if we go to Topeka for TC if I bring the 125 or not.
Title: Re: 2012 Ultralightweight Thunderbike?
Post by: vance on March 15, 2012, 09:04:14 PM
Quote from: bruce71198 on March 15, 2012, 08:44:05 AM
Hey Jiggy, glad to see you guys out having fun befor me ! Does anyone know how the grid will be set up, in ULWTB, if there are experts and ameteurs entered?
It's combined here in the Fl region and there are at least 2 Experts in the class, but the racing is surprisingly close between the whole group.
Title: Re: 2012 Ultralightweight Thunderbike?
Post by: apriliaman on March 16, 2012, 01:07:08 PM
Next time if you see your in the 2nd wave,we usally put our left hand out and wave to the other riders that your in the 2nd wave.I was there then the officals just put there hands in the air and were like what just happened.I can see your bikes are about the same.
Title: Re: 2012 Ultralightweight Thunderbike?
Post by: vance on March 16, 2012, 04:02:30 PM
Quote from: apriliaman on March 16, 2012, 01:07:08 PM
Next time if you see your in the 2nd wave,we usally put our left hand out and wave to the other riders that your in the 2nd wave.I was there then the officals just put there hands in the air and were like what just happened.I can see your bikes are about the same.
This has been beaten to death, but it's as much my fault as it is anyone's.  The grid official was right beside me and I didn't raise my hand to signal to the other riders.  Luckily, the race results ended up as they would have without the jump start penalties.
Title: Re: 2012 Ultralightweight Thunderbike?
Post by: vance on April 04, 2012, 11:16:39 AM
Don't be shy Miguel. Post up the JGP write up!  It's not bragging, you just happened to win the race. :)
Title: Re: 2012 Ultralightweight Thunderbike?
Post by: CHIRINOM on April 04, 2012, 06:54:37 PM
Lol. Jumping back to the main Racing discussion page ;)
Title: Re: 2012 Ultralightweight Thunderbike?
Post by: CHIRINOM on August 28, 2012, 01:50:37 AM
Hey guys, resurrecting an old thread as it is time to start discussing once again. I have been informed that we are nearing the deadline to submit rules proposals.

Title: Re: 2012 Ultralightweight Thunderbike?
Post by: vance on August 28, 2012, 05:00:48 PM
Here are the CCS ULTB and ESS wera rules for a starting point:
CCS:
ULTRALIGHT THUNDERBIKE (Amateur and Expert Combined)
Single cylinder, four-stroke liquid cooled, 250cc
Twin cylinder, air cooled, 350cc
Twin cylinder, four-stroke liquid cooled, up to 250cc
NOTE: 125GP and MD 250 machines are not eligible for Ultralight
ThunderBike.

WERA:
     E SUPERSTOCK EXPERT & NOVICE
200-250cc 4-stroke air and water-cooled twins
200-250cc 4-stroke air and water-cooled singles
No bodywork restrictions.
No engine modifications allowed
All bikes may upgrade to 17" wheels so long as they do not weigh less than the stock wheels for that model.       Kickstand mounts may be cut off of frame.It seems like the only thing we are asking to be added is the "no engine mods", which would keep the bikes consistent with wera rules also.  It might be necessary to add the 17" wheel conversion in case anyone wants to run an older gen, but it seems like there's a decent population of the newer gens to be found.  I'm not sure how many people would do it anyway.  Maybe we should make Walter and Miguel run an old gen.... :biggrin:
Title: Re: 2012 Ultralightweight Thunderbike?
Post by: CHIRINOM on August 29, 2012, 01:13:25 PM
Quote from: vance on August 28, 2012, 05:00:48 PM
Here are the CCS ULTB and ESS wera rules for a starting point:
CCS:
ULTRALIGHT THUNDERBIKE (Amateur and Expert Combined)
Single cylinder, four-stroke liquid cooled, 250cc
Twin cylinder, air cooled, 350cc
Twin cylinder, four-stroke liquid cooled, up to 250cc
NOTE: 125GP and MD 250 machines are not eligible for Ultralight
ThunderBike.

WERA:
     E SUPERSTOCK EXPERT & NOVICE
200-250cc 4-stroke air and water-cooled twins
200-250cc 4-stroke air and water-cooled singles
No bodywork restrictions.
No engine modifications allowed
All bikes may upgrade to 17" wheels so long as they do not weigh less than the stock wheels for that model.       Kickstand mounts may be cut off of frame.It seems like the only thing we are asking to be added is the "no engine mods", which would keep the bikes consistent with wera rules also.  It might be necessary to add the 17" wheel conversion in case anyone wants to run an older gen, but it seems like there's a decent population of the newer gens to be found.  I'm not sure how many people would do it anyway.  Maybe we should make Walter and Miguel run an old gen.... :biggrin:


I am working on my pre gen as we speak. I will tell you that they are no slugs. I raced James Bayles who was riding a pre gen. He won it. :err:

Sounds good to me, I propose that fuel octane be limited to 94 max. This will keep parity amongst machines while keeping the over all costs down. Hi test would mean hotter tuning which would result in tuning expense as well as increased operating expense in running the higher octane fuels.
Title: Re: 2012 Ultralightweight Thunderbike?
Post by: vance on August 29, 2012, 07:29:00 PM
http://blog.motorcycle.com/2012/08/27/manufacturers/kawasaki/epa-documents-reveal-2013-kawasaki-ninja-300-400r-confirms-636cc-ninja-zx-6r/


You gotta be f*ckin kidding me....
I'm gonna punch somebody in the nuts. :kicknuts:
Title: Re: 2012 Ultralightweight Thunderbike?
Post by: CHIRINOM on August 29, 2012, 10:41:57 PM
Quote from: vance on August 29, 2012, 07:29:00 PM
http://blog.motorcycle.com/2012/08/27/manufacturers/kawasaki/epa-documents-reveal-2013-kawasaki-ninja-300-400r-confirms-636cc-ninja-zx-6r/


You gotta be f*ckin kidding me....
I'm gonna punch somebody in the nuts. :kicknuts:

I doubt this. Does not seem efficient to produce a 250 and then turn around and unveil a 300.
Title: Re: 2012 Ultralightweight Thunderbike?
Post by: bruce71198 on August 30, 2012, 10:52:58 AM
I'll bore till I hit coolant !!!!!
Title: Re: 2012 Ultralightweight Thunderbike?
Post by: twilkinson3 on August 30, 2012, 05:02:24 PM
oi vey
Title: Re: 2012 Ultralightweight Thunderbike?
Post by: bruce71198 on August 31, 2012, 11:25:17 AM
I always wondered how that was spelled.....
Title: Re: 2012 Ultralightweight Thunderbike?
Post by: 775 on September 04, 2012, 11:28:17 PM
email sent  to CCS TX, basically asking 3 things,
No engine mods allowed
making it an overall points paying class
participate in ROC

Title: Re: 2012 Ultralightweight Thunderbike?
Post by: CHIRINOM on September 05, 2012, 12:51:49 AM
Quote from: vance on August 29, 2012, 07:29:00 PM
http://blog.motorcycle.com/2012/08/27/manufacturers/kawasaki/epa-documents-reveal-2013-kawasaki-ninja-300-400r-confirms-636cc-ninja-zx-6r/


You gotta be f*ckin kidding me....
I'm gonna punch somebody in the nuts. :kicknuts:

I do not see how this could be any problem for us. There are thousands upon thousands of engine displacements and configurations 50, 65, 80,85, 125, 250, 350, 400, 500, 600, 650.... We want to run our 250s. We run 250's because of the expense / competitive factor. I am not going to run out and buy a 300 and I am sure not going to bore my 250 out Lol...

Kawasaki has made the Ninja 250 for nearly 30 years and the old gen and the new gen are both competitive with each other. I would say that there is enough inventory out there to support the class for another 10 to 20 years. Look at the TZ125 for example, a rare machine that is discontinued from production and the 1994 is competitive with a 2009.
Title: Re: 2012 Ultralightweight Thunderbike?
Post by: vance on September 05, 2012, 08:19:59 PM
Let's hope Kawi continues to make the 250, and if not, that they hold some of the nostalgia that the 2 strokes have kept.
Title: Re: 2012 Ultralightweight Thunderbike?
Post by: Tri74x on September 06, 2012, 11:38:24 AM
No worries if they go to 300's. Just allow existing bikes to go to 67mm bore (assuming you physically can) and you'd have a screamer little 290cc motor. I know we're supposed to be cost concious, but a pair pistons/rings, bore job, and a few gaskets ain't a killer. Especially if you need to freshen the motor up anyway. Current model stays stock.
Or, restrictor plate them. I know some SCCA guys that run in the Miata class. You've got 1.6L's and 1.8L's out there. So, easy and cheap way to regain parody is to restrict the 1.8's. Cool thing is: the 1.6's are usually faster....
Title: Re: 2012 Ultralightweight Thunderbike?
Post by: vance on September 06, 2012, 04:07:42 PM
What language are your speaking? :banghead:   Piston, I got, the rest just passed right over... :biggrin:
Seriously, it will be interesting to see what happens to the class around the country if there is a 300 released here and no 250.  I've had an EX500 parked in KY for almost 3 years now because there's no class to run it in down here.  The 300 wouldn't fit anywhere either, I don't think.