Tire Life Question

[supercarl]

Alright I've never been any good with knowing when to swap tires and I need some more help. I'm heading to Blackhawk this weekend and I'm trying to plan out my tire changes. I'm on a r6 running avg mid 1:15's w/ tire warmers.  (fast novice pace) I'll be running Bridgestone's, either the BT-003pro's or the new R10's; cant decide. I was planning to run the BT003pros just because they're cheaper but that might change depending what you guys think.

Question is how many races do you guys usually get out of a set of these tires or any tires for that matter? Any difference between the BT or the R10? How many can the front take vs. the rear?

I've been replacing both front and rear as a set usually after 5 sprint races and a GTU, but I'm thinking the front might be able to last longer and I could just get a rear to save cost. Maybe I can even get more races out of the set than what I'm getting now?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

[Xian_13]

Riding style will dictate tire life more then the amount of races.
The faster you go, the faster your tires go away...

For most people, you can run 2 rears to one front.
When I rode a 1000, I would run 3 rears to a front.
On my TZ-250, however, I use up a front before the rear.

-X

[supercarl]

so Im thinking to do 2 rears to a front. How many races could I expect to do on that front on average?

[bruce71198]

This is a completely loaded question. Your going to end up with so many conflicting opinions you wont know what to do! So I'll throw mine at you. On my Ninja 250 I have not changed my tires all season, or last for that matter. I have completely worn out the one side of the rear tire but I still get good traction, I will probably change that tire for Sundays races, front tire still good. My SV 650 ridden at a 1:16-17 pace will go through a set of front and rears in 8 races. I see noticable wear ( shredding ) and loss of tread depth and a noticable decrease in traction. Traction is my big indicator, towards the end of there life I start riding a lot more cautiosly till I lose confidence in the tire. So I guess it all matters how far you feel comfortable running your tires down.

[brendan113]

 I'm also not the best at reading tires, and i was always only looking at the tread, but what i look for more now is the loss of shape or flatness usualy on one side of the tire. You can usualy feel your rear breaking loose when its time to change but your front getting loose isn't so forgiving. Also i know your looking for a broad baseline but depending on the bike, speed, temperature,compound and suspension you cant take how many races one person does and realy use that. Hope this helps

[supercarl]

well I know your ninja and SV are probably gonna go a little easier on the tires than my r6 lol. so that kinda gives me a decent comparison. Guess Im just gonna go off "feel" and what the all knowledgeable tire guys tell me.

I appreciate the advice. It def helps.

I remember making a set of tires last like half a season my first year haha and now I go through 2+sets of tires a weekend. Its such a drastic change that it just seems excessive to me lol.

[bruce71198]

Thats my point, to many variables but one things for sure, you'll know when you've tacken them to far !!!

[supercarl]

Haha isn't that the truth!

[twilkinson3]

2 sets of tires in a weekend to me would = get the suspenion looked at

Like Bruce I'm primarily a sv pilot (or ninja) these days in a complete season I went thru 2 fronts and 3 rears running all the lightweight sprints (couple years back now) on race DOTs (Michelin) running around 1:20-1:22...and most of that was corner speed...motor had nothing on the straights

Same comment tho, the tires will generally let you know gently when the rear is pretty much done, after that you have something of a baseline to go off of.

[roadracer162]

I agree that really is a loaded question. There are so many variables to the equation. The bigger bikes don't necessarily stress the tires more but what it will do is keep more heat in the rear tire. Me on my lightweight bike can many times carry more corner speed than a larger bike. This is observed from an FZR 400 to a Ducati 800, and a Ducati 748. The type of track is also something to consider where an abrasive track will wear the rubber away a lot quicker. That does not mean there is less traction.

I typically race my tires in the first 40 laps of life and practice the remaining 60 laps. I will many times do the best times on the practice laps. At my last outing at Roebling I observed race times with completely worn out tires. On a bigger bike the rear would go away much faster.

I keep meticulous watch of my tires and track laps and the corresponding times for each lap. I have realized changes with ambient temps from the morning to the afternoon and the effects of those temps. I watch the objective factor of lap times with these changes. Of course putting that much effort into the tires have decreased my effort in suspension changes. I never change gearing but learn how to change the way i ride for a particular track or circumstance.

[apriliaman]

On my SV650 I can go 5 race weekends on a set and that is doing 2 practices and 2 races a weekend.My ducati goes 3 weekends ,1 practice 3 races a weekend.My FZR 400 when I raced it full time I used 1 set for the whole year.

[Super Dave]

How fast do you need or want to go?  What margin of safety do you have with your equipment?

The best part of the tire is good for 7 to 17 laps.  It's down hill from there.  A race tire will usually drop off more than a track day tire...but the race tire should go faster when it is new.  So, I always planned the best part of my tire for more important races:  money, points, and/or stiffer competition.  Tires with more laps can be burned up in practice, less competitive races, blah, blah, blah...

[supercarl]

Well the reason I was asking this question was because I was doing 19 races in one weekend. 8 sprints on saturday then a GTU, two 9 lap ASRA races, and 8 sprints on Sunday. Plus the morning practices.

Doing so many races, I didnt really have any time off for tire changes. I just had to run what I could put on in the morning or during a lunch break. So I was wondering if I was just going to hit a complete drop off somewhere with the tires or something. I ended up making one set of tires last all 8 sprints the first day, then I used a rain set sunday for GTU & two sprints and then put on a new set of DOTs for the last 8 races. I wanted to win all my races in amateur. so I was running 1:14 -1:15 pace or so. But to answer your question, I always want to go as fast as I possibly can lol. Dont know what you mean by margin of safety...

Suprisingly I didnt really have any issues that weekend tho. I felt the rear sliding a little more and more as the day wore on, but it wasnt anything crazy. I still managed to put down good times. That being said I still dont know how to gauge tire life accurately because I was still putting consistent times down after 7 races when the tire shouldve been worse off haha. I figured I'd need new tires if the lap times were slower, but that was never the case. I felt comfortable on them all day. Only reason I replaced the tires is because I hit the wear markers.

However, I know other riders that swap tires well before that mark so it just leads me to believe that Im not changing tires eneough and thus not getting the best possible performance for the best possible lap times. With my original post I was just trying to get a reasonable answer on after how many laps/races it took before a tire lost eneough life for me not to really get my best times on it. I know obviously replacing the tire every race would be ideal but thats just not feasable. I was looking for a more realistic answer like 4 races on the rear, 8 on the front, etc... Although I realize now that there is no definite answer as it depends on so many factors.

Maybe just asking how often the fast guys change their tires on a 600 at blackhawk wouldve been easier haha  ::) 

[Super Dave]

So I was wondering if I was just going to hit a complete drop off somewhere with the tires or something....I wanted to win all my races in amateur. so I was running 1:14 -1:15 pace or so.

Weren't you running 12's and 13's before in some races?

But to answer your question, I always want to go as fast as I possibly can lol. Dont know what you mean by margin of safety...

Well, it's pretty simple.  How much will it cost to fix the bike if you throw it down in T2?  How much money do you loose in entry fees by not racing in races you paid for?  How much in contingency money do you loose by finishing a position back when you go from 12's to 15's?

And how much is a rear tire? A front?

For the cost of a crash, you could probably buy two rears and a front.  Could you do 12's all the time having better rubber?  Could you explore your riding and your set up to put down 11's with more consistent rubber? 

I was still putting consistent times down after 7 races when the tire shouldve been worse off haha. I figured I'd need new tires if the lap times were slower, but that was never the case. I felt comfortable on them all day. Only reason I replaced the tires is because I hit the wear markers.

Most likely, because it sounds like you're on a tight budget on tires, your chassis is set up for grip of a used tire.  So, you're not getting the full advantage of a new tire.  A new tire with lots of traction will load up the chassis more and cause it to react a certain way.  But if you then migrate or remain on old rubber, then your set up becomes that. 

Or it takes you time to relax. 

[supercarl]

I got into the 13's, but not the 12's yet. Hoping to hit that next weekend!    I was just using 14-15 as an average.

But I see what your saying with the cost of everything. The issue for me is not actually cost of tires. Im doing well enough now that I have plenty of tire money so Im not super budget constrained like I was before, but I still dont want to throw away money on tires if I dont need to. The issue for me is just understanding that fine line of when to change tires so I'm not doing it early and being wasteful or I'm not doing it late and risking a crash/slower laptimes. I just need a better feel for reading my tires. Im sure it will become more aparent as I get faster. I think I'm just too slow now to have a good idea  ::)

As far as chassis set-up, what kind of things do you do to adjust for new tires vs old? Im thinking that if I dont have time to change tires throughout the day I should maybe adjust settings to account for tire wear between races. It would also be beneficial to know how to set up for new tires so I could get fast laps on the important races. I assume just run it a little stiffer?

[Super Dave]

Are you working with TSE yet?  Start.

Money on tires is never thrown away.  If you use them less, you can sell them to someone because they might still have some real value to someone else when they're not shot.  If one's focus was on getting faster and faster, without budget constraints, then you'd go out every time on new tires.  Period.  Because then you'd build a set up based upon excellent traction, and, when it does let loose a little, it's still driving forward. 

Often, when you run your tires down too far, there so little rubber that the issue is keeping heat in the tire.  So, you start your race after the tires being on warmers for whatever period, then they loose heat during the race because there isn't enough insulation to keep heat in.  The tire drops below the temperature it is supposed to function at, and the performance drops off.  Often, that isn't so bad on a "track day" tire as it is thicker, thus holding heat in because the "blanket" is thicker.  Materials of construction are another issue, but keep this simple. 

So, "making it stiffer"... 

A spring has a rate.  You really don't make it stiffer.  You might compress it, and that starts the travel in a different place.  Compression and rebound...that's more about speed of compression or rebound.  If those are overcoming the spring rate, then you've got problems all their own.

Let's say you've got the right spring for new tires.  New tires are going to generate more traction loads than used.  Thus, the new tire is going to compress the springs with that traction load, be it braking, accelerating, or turning...or all of them together.  As the tire wears, it won't generate that load.  Then the rate of that spring can be too much, and the worn tire spins too early.  When the tire spins, it releases the compression of the spring...and that alters geometry under load.  That affects your steering, weight distribution, consistency, ability to save it when it gets strange...

[supercarl]

Are you working with TSE yet?  Start.

Thanks for the advice. I'll talk with the TSE guys this upcoming weekend and see what I can learn.

Money on tires is never thrown away.  If you use them less, you can sell them to someone because they might still have some real value to someone else when they're not shot.  If one's focus was on getting faster and faster, without budget constraints, then you'd go out every time on new tires.  Period.  Because then you'd build a set up based upon excellent traction, and, when it does let loose a little, it's still driving forward. 

This is pretty helpful. I'm slowly starting to understand tires more and more. Based on what you said I think my new plan will be to replace tires every chance I get during a race weekend. Then I can just sell tires that still have life left or use them for practice/trackdays. If contingecy dries up that may change though haha. Hopefully by running new tires more often I can get a more consitsent set-up and feel.

So, "making it stiffer"... 

A spring has a rate.  You really don't make it stiffer.  You might compress it, and that starts the travel in a different place.  Compression and rebound...that's more about speed of compression or rebound.  If those are overcoming the spring rate, then you've got problems all their own.

Let's say you've got the right spring for new tires.  New tires are going to generate more traction loads than used.  Thus, the new tire is going to compress the springs with that traction load, be it braking, accelerating, or turning...or all of them together.  As the tire wears, it won't generate that load.  Then the rate of that spring can be too much, and the worn tire spins too early.  When the tire spins, it releases the compression of the spring...and that alters geometry under load.  That affects your steering, weight distribution, consistency, ability to save it when it gets strange...

I understand the spring rate and the fact that new tires are going to generate more load, but I'm unsure on the adjustments for compression and rebound with the new tires. From what Ive gathered it appears that with newer tires you would want to go in with compression and rebound while you would go out as the tires are gettting used due to less traction. Is this a correct statement? does it vary on the forks vs the rear shock? Right now I have the sag and preload set on my bike for me. Spring rate is also correct for my weight. Ive tried adjusting compression and rempound before but Its hard for me to notice the results.

[Super Dave]

Thanks for the advice. I'll talk with the TSE guys this upcoming weekend and see what I can learn.

Talk to Scotty.  Tell him Super Dave sent you.  Talk.  Build a relationship.  It's gonna be twenty questions all the time, but you'll learn in the process too.
 

Based on what you said I think my new plan will be to replace tires every chance I get during a race weekend.

Fresher's faster!
 

Right now I have the sag and preload set on my bike for me. Spring rate is also correct for my weight. Ive tried adjusting compression and rempound before but Its hard for me to notice the results.

Well, first, what the heck is "sag and preload set on bike for me"? 

Spring rate is a thing.  Yes, there's a window.  But sag is a tool.  Using it as a concept of "I run it at 35mm" is not correct.  While you might have a set up for Blackhawk, I wouldn't directly run a Blackhawk set up at Road America.  T6 creates some specific problems in addition to the corners being fast.  One can get real results by changing sag settings. 

At some places, a spring rate change is good too. 

These are some things Scotty can work with you on. 

10's and 11's...  Look towards those.  :)

[supercarl]

Well, first, what the heck is "sag and preload set on bike for me"? 

Well at the begining of the season at RA the Turn one guys helped me set the sag/preload on my bike. You know, measuring forks both on and off the bike and then setting it correctly etc. I didnt realize that you were ever supposed to change it though. I thought once you set it for your weight you just leave it alone. Just one more thing I need to mess with now haha  ::)

Ill def talk everything over with TSE at the track though and let em know you referred me  . Im sure it will help alot. I'll have this suspension stuff mastered one day haha

[Super Dave]

Just one more thing I need to mess with now haha  ::)

Don't worry, the longer you involve yourself in this, the more things you mess with approaches infinity...  :)

Ill def talk everything over with TSE at the track though and let em know you referred me  . Im sure it will help alot. I'll have this suspension stuff mastered one day haha

Mastering is hard.  Just try to find a handle to hang onto it.  :)

[supercarl]

Alright new plan. Im going to go really really fast and get a factory ride so a pit crew can do it all for me :D haha if only.

[Super Dave]

Alright new plan. Im going to go really really fast and get a factory ride so a pit crew can do it all for me :D haha if only.

Gotta have goals...  Don't let yourself stand in the way of you shooting for the stars.  It's not easy, and you might not get all the way there, but the journey has some pretty sweet scenery...

[supercarl]

Well said! I'm taking the scenic route     

[alocker]

Alright new plan. Im going to go really really fast and get a factory ride so a pit crew can do it all for me :D haha if only.

I saw few guys helping you out last weekend.  Don't take that for granted, my wife finally figured out how to put my front stand on after 2 yrs The next goal is training her to turn the Gopro on and off. 

Dave pretty much said it all.  You will never know the exact time to change tires.  You can either jeopardize a few dollars by changing too soon or jeopardize a lot of dollars and your safety by changing too late.  Depending of if Joe is racing or not, you can buy him lunch and he might be able to give you a hand at a fast tire swap. 

[supercarl]

I saw few guys helping you out last weekend.  Don't take that for granted, my wife finally figured out how to put my front stand on after 2 yrs The next goal is training her to turn the Gopro on and off. 

haha its funny you say that. I just taught my friend Stephanie how to do the Go Pro that weekend! Shes actually got it down no problem. She even has the stands mastered too, but still struggles with the tire warmers This is her attempting to help with a tire change...

And luckily for me everyone with CCS is so dang cool! I had Kurt help me change rains to DOTs last weekend at BFR and it saved my butt and got me a win. I wasnt going to because I only had like 5 min, but he helped and we got it done just in time. Plus Kolin and the Turn one guys helped me rebuild my bike in 10 min after a crash the weekend before that. 

That being said I'm sure if Joe cant help me with a quick tire change Im sure someone else will. I'll probably owe everyone at that track a lunch/beer by the end of the season haha!

[Jwhite316]

I got into the 13's, but not the 12's yet. Hoping to hit that next weekend!    I was just using 14-15 as an average.

But I see what your saying with the cost of everything. The issue for me is not actually cost of tires. Im doing well enough now that I have plenty of tire money so Im not super budget constrained like I was before, but I still dont want to throw away money on tires if I dont need to. The issue for me is just understanding that fine line of when to change tires so I'm not doing it early and being wasteful or I'm not doing it late and risking a crash/slower laptimes. I just need a better feel for reading my tires. Im sure it will become more aparent as I get faster. I think I'm just too slow now to have a good idea  ::)

As far as chassis set-up, what kind of things do you do to adjust for new tires vs old? Im thinking that if I dont have time to change tires throughout the day I should maybe adjust settings to account for tire wear between races. It would also be beneficial to know how to set up for new tires so I could get fast laps on the important races. I assume just run it a little stiffer?

The nice about Blackhawk is that its a mostly right turn course.  We usually flip ours, we run pirellis though not sure if the stones react differently....either way it seems to work okay and it will extend your tire life a bit.