Lightweight rules 2011?

[Gino230]

Mark,

I know you have a composite fuel tank but do you have wheels or anything else? My 1000 is just a hair under 400lbs....

[George_Linhart]

Guys - I think you are all barking up the wrong tree.  LW class rules should not be bastardized to "fit" whatever bike you have that isn't competitive in another class and isn't legal in LW now.  We should not use the LW classes to try and create a new low cost class, nor should we be using it to morph into a new "classics" class (AKA - dumping ground for old MW class equipment).  Look, I am sorry that the 748 isn't an effective MW bike anymore. Also, no, a pre 1992 CBR600 or FZR600 isn't going to win any MW championships - however, I don't think it is a good thing to transform the LW classes into a classic MW class .  Lets just think this through further and let me know where does it stop?  If you say 11 year old MW class bikes can step down to LW, then you have to allow the 1999 Yamaha R-6, in 2014 you will have the 2003 R-6 legal - that is way better than any modified LW bike that I can imagine...  What about heavyweight and Unlimited class bikes - do we let them in if hey are old enough?  Do we end up, at some point, letting Ducati 916's and 996's in (and what if somebody finds an old WSB bike and decides to grid up - talk about opening the wallet)?

If you want to mix and match frames and motors - sorry, that is what the GP classes are for.  SS and SB should be production based.  If you stray from that model, feel free but you have tlo limit yourself tho the GP classes.  This would really open up the pandora's box of spending to the moon rather than going the other way around.

Racing isn't cheap.  I really believe that however you write the rules somebody will spend more money than you expect to create a class overdog- just look at the $30,000 Bimota's that you are talking about.  All these suggestions do is bend the rules from what has been a pretty stable class to benefit a contingent of riders of older machines.  Both CCS and WERA LW class rules- while they have a different overall structure - have been respectively stable for at least 7 years now.  I don't think that Mongo will argue the fact that WERA is really designed as a spec SV class; where CCS adopted and embraced a bit less restrictive approach with regard to the air cooled engines.  One is not necessarily right, the other is not necessarily wrong, they are just different and gives racers a choice.

The one complaint that keeps coming up that I do understand and sympathise with is a desire to try to find a new "budget" or limited expenditure class.  I don't think you should try and get there by messing with rules in any one class, least of all LW.  Think about it, LW is the only class where many of us can actually benefit from building a motor or really shaving pounds off a bike.  I couldn't ride a 200 bhp open class liter bike effectively - I just don't have the skill.  Taking an extra 5 lbs off of that same bike won't make any difference either.  However, every improvement I make to my superbike spec Ducati 1000SS does make a difference on the track.

If what we are trying to do is create a budget class or make the economics easier for a new racer, how about if we focus on creating a class were the rules are not about engine displacement, but rather are around restricted spending - I have suggested this many times before but bear with me again.  the only way to do this is though a "claimer" class.  No equipment limitations - only 2 rules - 1) safety per existing rulebook (safety wire, oil containing lower, etc); and, 2) after every race each contestant in the event can "claim" another rider's bike for some specified amount (for argument sake lets say $2,000.00).  Think about it, there is no incentive to spend anything over $2,000.00 as if you do it probably will be claimed.  It also would bring out some interesting backyard mechanics.  There may be some refinement necessary - but it is simple and focused on the point.

I am sure some will disagree -but - lets focus on what problem you are trying to solve and not make the LW class overall worse off for trying to solve a problem that shouldn't be forced upon us.

George

[Noidly1]

If I remember correctly, WERA had a "claimer" class, don't remember the specifics but, it was a class in which you had a price limit of $10,000 on your machine and that if someone wanted to buy your bike for $10,000, you had to sell it to them or you were stricken of all points and winnings for the year.

If you want to have an entry level class, then I say make a $5,000 claimer class which will allow one to buy a decent bike for say $3-$3,500 and have $1,500- $2,000 for upgrades and repair parts. Granted cc and air/water will be an issue but I think we can kill a couple of underfilled classes to fit the bill.

Now as for the age of the bike goes, I don't think that there is that much of a difference with the right rider. I was killing it @ RA in '09 with my '01 R6 and have the wood (5) to show for it. I bought it for $3,000 and did the suspension upgrades and dyno tuned it and that was all that was needed other than getting my head out of my a$$ and learning how to ride. BTW, the bike in my avitar is the bike I was running at the time.

[Gino230]

George I agree with much of what you have said.

But you have not addressed the point that not many LW eligible bikes are still being made and those that are, are not competitive out of the box.

The Aprilla Shiver 750 or the BMW 800 are $10K  and are 95HP water cooled twins with 4 valves per cylinder. These are legal under the current rules. Why not the 10 year old 748 which in SS trim MIGHT make 95HP?

Current rulebook:  Twin cylinder, liquid cooled, non-desmodromic valves, up to 800cc

I get what you are saying but I don't think that loosening up the rules for "desmodromic valves" means we have to let 600CC fours into the class. If the rules hadn't evlolved then the 1000DS that you and I ride would not be legal, either.

At some point the rules have to evolve. The LW classes have been modified to absorb the old sportsman classes which, for lack of a better term, HAVE become a dumping ground for older machines that are no longer competitive. The point of club racing is having a class for everyone, isn't it?

Just to be clear I don't have a 748, but would love to build one from ebay parts and be competitive on it.

And I don't think that allowing 748 (non RS models only) in SS trim into LWSB, GTL, and LWGP would change much. Nobody can show up with a 10 year old World Supersport bike and dominate....althought that would be legal in alot of classes and it's not happening now, is it?

Just my $.02 of course.

[Ducmarc]

Aw gino your just jelous

[Ducmarc]

Still think a lightweight class index with a breakout rule.  just about all drag racing is done that way and people are still racing .then you can run anything you want

[George_Linhart]

George I agree with much of what you have said.

But you have not addressed the point that not many LW eligible bikes are still being made and those that are, are not competitive out of the box.

Gino - It may be circular logic, but, I think that the reason for this is that LW is the best class to "build" a superbike.  Very few people are satsified with a LW SS bike because it only tends to be competiive in LWSS and it is completly outclassed in LWSB, LWGP and Thunderbike.  I have watched it happen - guy comes out, does well as a yellow plate on a SS legal bike in these 4 classes but when he puts on the white plates he and his bike get smoked by the Superbikes in 3 of his 4 classes so the next year he builds a SB to compete...

I don't agree that LW has absorbed the old Sportsman class - that is Thunderbike.  It is an anomoly that they allow LW Formula 40 to run under Thunderbike rather than LW rules - somewhat a mis-titling of the class, but whatever.

I am personally a big fan of the 748's and I wouldn't mind letting 748's into LW only because I really like that bike.  However, I really don't think that this will make it any cheaper to win in the class.  If they were legal I probably would buy a 748, spend at least as much money as I have into my 1000SS to create something far beyond what you have in mind.

Again - rather than mucking with the LW class, if there is enough interest perhaps CCS could combine a few low-turn out classes and come up with a new "sportsman" class to try and performance index as you suggest?  Perhaps we get rid of LWSS entirely (largely has been replaced by ULSB anyways) and all of the HW classes to create enough time in th day for a couple of performance indexed classes.

At least that would be my suggestion.

George

[roadracer162]

Gino- My Duc 800 has been lightened to the 365# primarily by the use of the carbon tank and the Marchesini forged aluminum wheels. I know it could have been lighter if I had used the Magnesium wheels but at the price I paid to obtain these wheels I just couldn't pass it up. I don't the fairing I have serves the purpose of making it any lighter only because the upper and lower together weighs some 10lbs. The aluminum swingarm will save another 4 lbs when I get around to installing it.

I guess it depends on the region for participation in LW SS. I like the idea of keeping it mainly to have a place for the newcomers to start. I will always recommend a beginner to start in the LW ranks and gor from their. Although the UlSB and the SS is pretty close it does give the SS spec bike a place to race in two classes and be competitive. The older SV seems to have the edge in UL SB when the flatslide carbs are used, unless they are all cheater motors. I do know that there is at least one SV in SS trim that races UL SB and is illegal for the ULSB but legal for SS.

I would like to see some melding of the classes. Right now the RS250 GP bike races in LW GP and is illegal in GT Lights. Makes sense to me because GT lights then allows the RS125 GP bike another place to race. That same RS 250 races HW F40 yet the Duc 748 races in LW F40. The Duc 748 is not allowed in LW GP but the RS250 is allowed to race.

Do we want more of the older bikes a place to race and be somewhat competitive? Do we keep it competitive only for the new machines?

[Gino230]

Marc, what is a breakout rule? I don't know much about drag racing. Claiming I get, but that would be a tough sell I think.

[roadracer162]

In drag racing you have a "dial in". That time is set mainly your statement that your bike/rider combo is "this fast". If you go faster then the term"break-out" is used only because you broke out of the time of your "Dial in". In roadracing you could speculate that a rider/bike combo will do a certain lap and no faster.

It's nice to have more than one class to run. My Duc 800 is competitive in ULSB but because of mods is not legal for SS. My Duc runs well against a SS SV so the Duc in SS trim would get clobbered. I have finally found a second class to run my FZR400 although sorely outmatched in the Ultralight class.

[Ducmarc]

Well I thought you could set a lap index at a certain track like figure the the fastest lightweight bike and back off a second use that no. For the year in that class at that track. So the fastest lightweght last year at jennings is 1.23 add a second to 1.24. Now we all race to a 1.24 lap time if you go faster then a 1.24 then your out. So to win you have to be the first at the line and run over 1.24 haven't worked out the rest of the running order yet the idea is to run anything you want tz250 or gsxr1000 it doesn't matter. Now that I typed it maybe it Won't work.

[roadracer162]

Yeah, No Marc! Maybe it could be used withn the class something like qualifying.