Proposed Amendment to the Downgrade Rule

[HAWK]

He is a  strong AM but isn't taking anything away from other AM (competing for a championship).   I don't believe that he should be bumped up.

How do you figure he's not taking anything away from the other AM riders. You say he can usually podium, that means that he may very well push an AM rider going for a championship off the podium. There is a 5 point gap from first to second and a 4 point gap from second to third and a 2 point gap from third to fourth, if he pushs a rider from 3rd to 4th then he has taken away 2 points from that rider, now let's say that that rider takes second in the championship by 1 point at the end of the season.

All of the is in addition to the contingency issue.

I do believe that there should be better oversight of the downgrades but a midseason bump has to be based on more than simply 400 points, the issue is never that black and white, if it was there would not be a downgrade policy.

[roadracer162]

I guess the two scenarios shows a big descrepancy between the two, where a potentially capable rider(capable of a podium) doesn't do enough races to stay below the "400 bump points level" and the other rider being able to achieve 400 points without blistering pace. So what should the criteria be for moving to expert? Shouldn't there be an assessment rider ability to stay safe, make the appropriate decisions and the like? Isn't it the ability to maintain a predictable racing line? Or is it based solely on that blistering pace? Is it that he rider moving to expert must be able to compete for the podium in the expert class?

I must tell you, there are some very fast Amateurs out there. There are many Amateurs that have achieved the ability to ride in a controlled manner with smoothness, predictable decisions, and consistent pace that in my opinion are the qualities of an Expert. So where do you draw the line?

[SV88]

How do you figure he's not taking anything away from the other AM riders. You say he can usually podium, that means that he may very well push an AM rider going for a championship off the podium. There is a 5 point gap from first to second and a 4 point gap from second to third and a 2 point gap from third to fourth, if he pushs a rider from 3rd to 4th then he has taken away 2 points from that rider, now let's say that that rider takes second in the championship by 1 point at the end of the season.

All of the is in addition to the contingency issue.

What I meant is that he's not posing a championship threat to other AMs.  He is a bit of a nuisance factor in the sense that he is taking a few points away from other AMs and contingency however all the other AMs competing for a championship have to deal with him on an equal basis...

[Noidly1]

I guess the two scenarios shows a big descrepancy between the two, where a potentially capable rider(capable of a podium) doesn't do enough races to stay below the "400 bump points level" and the other rider being able to achieve 400 points without blistering pace. So what should the criteria be for moving to expert? Shouldn't there be an assessment rider ability to stay safe, make the appropriate decisions and the like? Isn't it the ability to maintain a predictable racing line? Or is it based solely on that blistering pace? Is it that he rider moving to expert must be able to compete for the podium in the expert class?

I must tell you, there are some very fast Amateurs out there. There are many Amateurs that have achieved the ability to ride in a controlled manner with smoothness, predictable decisions, and consistent pace that in my opinion are the qualities of an Expert. So where do you draw the line?

Here is an idea.
Now this may fall into some bias but, what if we have a panel of experts evaluate the candidates.
This places the question into their actual abilities and not their stats.

[squirrel22]

Guys, the debate is not over the qualifications of an expert.  There are some amateurs that fit into both categories; the difference here is that we are talking about racers who have ALREADY GRADUATED TO EXPERT STATUS AND DOWNGRADED BACK TO AMATEUR STATUS.

Really fast amateurs: If they have already downgraded, and they hit 400 points again, they go up to expert!

Racers with ghost grids: If they hit 400 points again, go race expert!   First, if they are racing against nobody, then they'll never gain the experience of racing with others, which is a desired trait of expert racers.  Second, you need to enter at least 12 races to gain 400 points, and that is assuming you win all of them.  So these guys would have to enter at least 24 races and win all of them in order for this rule to apply to them.  They go expert.

[HAWK]

Squirrel, go back and reread my post, 400 points is a threshold not an ejection seat.

[Super Dave]

Ok, here was my concept back, well, it was six years ago now.  Honestly, it becomes tiring with these things, so... 


I wrote out an option that would have helped a lot of folks in making decisions in racing...remaining involved, or not, I'm sure.  The page where I lay out the rule is on this page...
http://www.ccsforum.com/index.php/topic,7584.75.html

Start of the thread is here...
http://www.ccsforum.com/index.php/topic,7584.0.html

At that time, CCS was operating track days and selling a "trackday card" too.  So, you'll see references to a "CCS Sport Rider" card or something...

My rule follows, but it is probably easier to read with my bold points and all on the page that I had it...

Change of CCS rules to:

2.2.4 Riders will be issued Regional Series licenses as Novice, Sportsman, or Expert
Call them what you will, this is just an idea.

A.  CCS Officials will issue Expert licenses to those riders with proven experience or ability as follows:

(1.)  Applicants who are renewing a CCS Expert license or who are applying with an Expert license from one of the racing organizations listed in 2.2.1

Pretty easy.  If you are, you will be, right?  Additionally, we've added the "novice" rating.

B.  CCS Officials will issue Sportsman licenses to those riders with safe and reasonable ability and experience as follows:

(1.)  Applicants who are renewing a CCS Amateur (as per current nomenclature) or who are applying with an amateur license from one of the racing organizations listed in section 2.2.1

Ok, this is new, but it's kind of the same...if you're a current amateur, well, you're gonna be in the current new system, etc.  Pretty basic.

(2.)  Any Novice Rider who in the opinion of CCS Officials has safe and reasonable ability.

There's the window.  At some point, a rider may just be "too fast" for a novice class.  They may not be "seasoned" in the experienced way, but they may certainly have safe and reasonable ability.  I think it's fair to say, move them to Sportsman.  There are no rewards other than personal in the Novice class anyway.  (And often that's all there is anywhere else anyway...LOL!)

C.  CCS Officials will issue Novice licenses to riders that meet any of the following criteria:

(1.)  Riders that are applying with Provisional Amateur/Novice licenses from one of the racing organizations listed in 2.2.1

Again, pretty basic... 

(2.)  Riders applying with a certificate indicating completion of an approved Riders School.

(3.)  Riders applying with a CCS Sport Rider card.

This make sense?  Start 'em out in the new stuff.  Get them some experience.  Think of it as a longer riding school...

Eliminate line 2.2.5 and replace with the following STATUS CHANGE lines...

2.2.5  STATUS CHANGES -  Riders who change in status during the season will not carry points to their new status

I figure that it's a whole new ball game, so why carry it.  Novices will not have points anyway.

A.  Expert riders will be granted the opportunity to be moved to Sportsman status.

Ok, THIS one is the big one. 

Some riders may just feel out gunned in expert races because of ability, finances, time, opportunity, etc.  Why make a guy run around in somethingth place racing with no one?  The amateur/sportsman classes will only be slightly slower at the top, but the broader range of speeds in the class certainly opens up the opportunity for "racing"...and that part of the fun.  Is this why we loose some riders after those couple of years? 

This will allow more riders to feel as though there is an even playing field for them.  There have been some celebrated opportunities for some riders to stay amateur or to move from expert when seemingly they were reasonably competitive.  Give everyone the opportunity to choose their destiny....?

B.  Sportsman riders must petition to be moved to Expert.  Riders who in the opinion of CCS Officials has the ability and reasonable experience for Expert competition will be moved to Expert.  CCS reserves the right to deny Expert Status to any Sportsman rider that may not meet this criteria.

Again, big.

Prior rules dictated amatuer riders moving up after scoring 500 points in a 12 month period, winning a Series Championship, or finishing in the top five in any class at the Race of Champions.

The status change would fall into the hands of the rider.  I would suppose that there needs to be some criteria.  Times, finishes, something.  Certainly, a list of riders could be made that gives them the opportunity to elect to take the change.  Some will take it.  Some might not.

Why would someone?  The opportunity for the purse, qualifying, etc.  Why would someone not do it?  Lack of opportunity to race regularly, not feeling ready to race against potentially faster riders, or just not wanting to...

[squirrel22]

Squirrel, go back and reread my post, 400 points is a threshold not an ejection seat.

I got you Paul.  I did need to reread that!

I will say though, that barring the creation of a council to oversee Expert Advances (which will take a lot of time to handle all of the cases every year) there needs to be a standard.  Currently that standard is 400 points, so I went with that.  Either way you slice it if you meet the standard TWICE, to Expert you go.

If maybe there was a better standard in the first place, there would be no downgrades; I was simply addressing what I have seen twice now as gross abuse of the system.  My idea was to have a simple, non-loop-hole answer to the situation.

[HAWK]

I agree that the current system is being abused but the answer is in enforcement of the existing rules. The downgrade request is just that, a request that needs to be subdtiantiated with a valid argument and denied if the argument and performance fail to bear it out.

In my particular case I as I mentioned I made 400 points without ever actullly racing anyone, to make matters worse I was forced to sit out the entire next season due to a serious accident at work. I requested a downgrade and then raced in 2008 as an AM. I made 400 points by the end of the 3rd or 4th weekend which with your proposal would have bumped me up to EX. The fact is that I was running with about 5 or 6 guys and racing tooth and nail every round, I was getting the experience that I felt I needed to go up. At the point I was 46 years old and had only been racing for 1 year (if you ignore my season down due to work injury) If you had bumped me to EX at the point I would have left the sport, I had seen these guys when they would lap me at the end of the GT races and was not ready to ride with them.

[twilkinson3]

Hmm maybe a meet in the middle - 400 points is the auto bump up at the moment and Squirrel is trying to get soemthing to rebump someone for bumping down when they probably shouldn't have, what if the next season auto bump up was say 600 points for a mid season bump - just offering another thought, nothing says it would have to be the same number of points, 600ish should let you run a significant portion of the season even on smaller grids and see what's what

[squirrel22]

I agree that the current system is being abused but the answer is in enforcement of the existing rules. The downgrade request is just that, a request that needs to be subdtiantiated with a valid argument and denied if the argument and performance fail to bear it out.

In my particular case I as I mentioned I made 400 points without ever actullly racing anyone, to make matters worse I was forced to sit out the entire next season due to a serious accident at work. I requested a downgrade and then raced in 2008 as an AM. I made 400 points by the end of the 3rd or 4th weekend which with your proposal would have bumped me up to EX. The fact is that I was running with about 5 or 6 guys and racing tooth and nail every round, I was getting the experience that I felt I needed to go up. At the point I was 46 years old and had only been racing for 1 year (if you ignore my season down due to work injury) If you had bumped me to EX at the point I would have left the sport, I had seen these guys when they would lap me at the end of the GT races and was not ready to ride with them.

In this case Hawk, you would be the exception to the rule.  In light of this, I think CCS should accept appeals on status after the 400 points are reached for those who have already downgraded.  The criteria on these appeals should be that you are more than one year after being downgraded, or have a performance index of less than 500.

[HAWK]

I'd like to believe that I'm the kind of guy the petition ruke is there for and that your proposal is intended to address the exception. What I'm trying to point out is that the petitions need to be handled more strictly and the problem goes away.