Suspension

Started by Thingy, November 13, 2002, 08:01:07 AM

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Thingy

Ok.  Let's open up a can of worms.  Several of you are well aware of my suspension woes.  I have a '00 GSX-R750 with a Race-Tech'd front end.  

While I understand what the available suspension adjustments do, I rarely mess with them and just ride.  Yes, I know this is bad, and their have been times where I try to adjust the suspension.  Others try to help as well.  I am getting faster, but it has been a tough task.

Everybody that has ridden my bike thinks the front end is terrible.  Most of you guys have been trying to get me to go with Traxxion.  

So, here is what I would like some feedback on:  I would not only like to know everybody's opinion, but ALSO why.  If you think one brand is better, is it because the parts are better?  Do they have more knowledge recommending the correct shim stack?  Service after the sale?  Let's have it.  Thanks.

-Bill
MW EX #13
Double Bravo Racing
-Bill Hitchcock
GP EX #13
Double Bravo Racing
'01 Ducati 748

Tuck your skirt in your panties and twist the throttle!

YTAK_Racing

All I can tell you is that we had Traxxion do our front forks on all our bikes. 3-Aprilia RS250's 1-GSXR 600 and 1-GSXR 750.

We never had any trouble.  If we ever needed anything the did it without question.

Jon Wuytack

Big Show Racing/ YTAK Racing

TZDeSioux

LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE

Thingy

Hi Jon-

My bike was the other GSX-R that Hanson was riding down at Daytona with you.  After hopping off of yours, he REALLY started hounding me about the suspension on my bike.

-Bill
MW EX #13
Double Bravo Racing
-Bill Hitchcock
GP EX #13
Double Bravo Racing
'01 Ducati 748

Tuck your skirt in your panties and twist the throttle!

Dawn

#4
Paul has a SV650 and had Race Tech springs in the front forks. The forks either weren't set up properly or just plain wrong.  After a crash that bent the front forks, we sent them to Traxxion.  They straigten them, put in new springs and fork seals and Paul said that they were 100% better than before.

The price that Traxxion quoted was the price that we paid and they were very courteous and helpful.

Dawn  


Dawn

QuoteLE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE

Brian are you feeling ok?

Dawn   :-[

TZDeSioux

QuoteBrian are you feeling ok?

Dawn   :-[

LMAO..... Lindemann Engineering :D :D :D :D

Dawn

QuoteLMAO..... Lindemann Engineering :D :D :D :D


Ohhhh.....

Dawn   :)

YTAK_Racing

Bill,  

Yes, I do remember kevin's remarks...something about fear of dying...LOL ;D

Has the bike been in a good get off?  You might want to take the bike over to 4&6 and make sure the frame is not out of wack.

Take care

Jon

tcchin

Bill,

As I've stated elsewhere in this forum, PPS in Anaheim, CA is the place that survived our team's down-select process. Parts is parts, but it's the combination of parts that makes the system work right. Identifying the proper combination requires talent and experience. Fortunately, Stig Pettersson, owner of PPS, has loads of both.

Your '00 GSX-R750 comes with Showa forks with pistons that are very similar to Ohlins Road & Track forks. Get the valving right, and your forks' performance can come very close to that of the R&T's. Kick in a couple hundred more, and you can have Ohlins Superbike pistons retrofitted, which will yield performance levels approaching those of the $7K Ohlins Superbike forks.

Let me make it clear that I am in no way affiliated with PPS, nor does PPS provide us with more than a racer discount and some stickers. They are just a damn good shop, and one in which I have every confidence.

bweber

Since I have installed a number of Race-Tech gold Vales, Gold Valve Emulators and spring kits I am interested in this topic.  However, I see a number of suggestions on alternatives to Race-Tech, but no reasoning.  It feels better, is not a real scientific reason.  There is only so much that can be different.  The piston diameter must be the same, so the only difference can be in the valve orifices and shim stack.  Why is LE or Traxxion better?  Could a different shim stack selection make Bill's bike handle like a dream?  Where is Max or Jim? They need to sell their services.

bweber

BTW- Hanson is just a puss who is scared of a little wallow, weave, chatter and sliding.  I mean it's only Daytona! ;D

Dawn

Quote It feels better, is not a real scientific reason.  

It is not a scientific reason, but is the one that matters.   ;)  

Max can be found on the WERA board.  When I have more time I will ask him to chime in here.

Dawn   :)

Gixxer124

You mean I'm not suppose to use my GSXR's stock suspension ???

Dawn

QuoteYou mean I'm not suppose to use my GSXR's stock suspension ???

Yeah I know.....   :o

The things your learn on this board is amazing.  

Dawn   ;)

Baltobuell

 Traxxion!
  1 They are at the track if something goes wrong or just to ask a question.
  2 LE may be good, I don't know, but my LE front end was redone by Traxxion and a world of difference. quote "you were riding with that like that?" Big big difference.

khanson

Weber, Now you are talking smack for someone that hung up their leathers....sissy boy!

All I know is that Bill's bike was a terrifying ride at Daytona and Ytak's bike felt like riding a cadillac.

I didn't get the specifics when I first had my forks done on my Ducati by Traxxion.  I just know it was worth the $300-$400 extra spent to make sure my bike handled it's best and I didn't have to worry about it being right the first time.  I don't even mess with my own fork oil changes for that reason. Plus Weber you just needed to turn the adjusters more.  Look at mine, they're practically worn out from this season. ;D

Baker where are you?  Call Traxxion, Weber, and talk to Mike Fitzgerald or Max, they will have the answers.  I've been on Bill all day about using his phone to place the call and he kept whining about actually having to do some work.
Kevin Hanson<br /><br />www.SafetyFirstRacing.com<br />Safety First Racing<br />847.357.1309

prov431

Unless I missed it, no one mentioned my personal favorite suspension shop, GMD Computrack. Without absolute knowledge of supension and suspension tuning myself, it would be frivolous for me to attemp to explain the differences in GMD vrs LE vrs Traxxion and ect. Isn't that why we go to the shop in the first place! I will tell you this, if you call them, they will be happy to explain it all to you!
Their work is 100% professional, and the after the sale support is superb.
www.computrack.com

fourandsix

I always enoy the question , "what or who's product or service is better".I have used or worked all or most available suspension components , from stock to exotic ohlins supersport forks. I have had the opportunity to work with some of the top suspension guys in the world.

The one answer all the top guys have always told me is you can fix a fork problem 10 different ways, there is no "one fix" for anything when it comes to suspension. I prefer the Axxion valves as they are very top quality as far as fit an finish and they combine some features of both the Race Tech and Ohlins valves.

Lindeman does a good job and has many satisfied customers around the country. You hear many Race tech horror stories which are mainly because they were installed improperly. Traxxion installs what they sell to make sure this doesn't happen, They have recently added some approved centers around the country to also install.

I have used Ohlins products since the early 80's , very good product. We were one of the first roadrace team to use Race Tech , it is a decent product if installed properly.

You should use who ever makes you feel comfortable and can help you with initial set up, every rider is different and their set up might need tweaking from a base setting.

sdiver68

Who is at the track with you?  Who will support you trackside and/or locally?  Who can give you good advice, and support your needs?  Who is AT THE TRACK?

These are the questions you should be asking.  Parts are parts, and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to install them correctly.  Experience and support are what matters.  Want a dirty little secret?  A buddy saw a Traxxion shop put in RACE TECH parts.  Heck, even Max himself recommends RT cartridge emulators for SV's...

There's an independent guy who is also an engineer for Showa (working on tuning for Buell's) based out of Milwaukee who is following the MW, GL, and GP CCS ragions next year.  I'll dig his card out if interested.  Baker was also at most if not all the races, with stopwatch in hand and full rebuild facilities in his trailer.  MD Racing is at several CCS events and NESBA.  4&6 is local as well.

Support your traskside vendors and they will support you.
MCRA Race School Instructor

Super Dave

I think the thing that Jim at 4&6 has going for him, along with Traxxion, PPS, and LE is that they work regularly with racer.  

Your local shop does not know how to put in the Race Tech stuff correctly.  What's your time at the track worth?  If it isn't right, it's a waste of your hard earned time.

So often, I get to play with a slew of bikes at my school.  By far the worst ones are some of the ones that have some Race Tech components in them.  Not the fault of race tech, but the fault of whom ever put the stuff in.

Who's at the track?  It does matter a bit.  If it's wrong, you have someone to go whine to.  If it is something that can be changed, then it can.  If the person does not have a great sense of feel for how a bike should be, you'll never get it right.

As for Computrack, there is some validity there.  I would say that the geomtery is probably the first and foremost thing I look at on the motorcycle.  Until that is reasonably correct, the spring and dampening really cannot perfectly be selected.  Computrack can get you into the correct swingarm angle/steering head angle/trail that the bike should be at if you cannot do that yourself.  

Now to state this perfectly for those that have stock suspensions, don't buy another pipe or anything until you have replaced the rear shock and had a qualified road race suspension shop work on the forks.  If you've got a school near by that can help you set it up, do that too.  You can dink around for years with stuff one way and never realize that the reason you can't keep up with someone is because of the poor handling of the bike.  Might not be dramatic, but you pick up things from the bike even though you might not feel that you do.

Bill, why would you even bother waiting?  Do it, be done with is already!
Super Dave

bweber

I'll just say this.  It is not rocket science installing a gold valve kit.  There are ways to mess it up, but for the most part, if you have some mechanical aptitude, they are simple if you have the right tools, but very time consuming.  

max@traxxion.com

Hello everyone,

This is Max McAllister from Traxxion Dynamics, Inc.  I received an email that asked me to put my $2.00 worth in (inflation...) on the subject of suspension.

Proper ettiquette requires me not to "sell" our products to internet listers or to talk about our competition.

But then, you don't want all of that Politically Correct BS do you?  Due to post limitations, this will come in a couple of parts.

So here's some straight answers...

Part one:

Our company was started with Race Tech products.  I have seen where their product could be improved and made better products.  Our springs are made by the same vendor RT used to use.  This same factory supplies springs for LE and several top dirt bike companies.  About 2 years ago, RT began sourcing springs from a different vendor, and I don't think they are as good anymore.  Their current springs are typically much heavier than the stock springs, and are fully one rate softer than their box claims.  I have tried to discuss and improve this situation with RT, but I have achieved no results.  Their manufacturer claims they have a more accurate system of testing than the rest of the world uses.  Unfortunately, they are calling an apple an orange right now.

The primary flaw in RTs philosophy is not in their product's function but in the fact that they claim anyone can install one of their kits.  Well, you can't.  In five years and thousands of forks, I have come across two sets of forks with the kit installed properly, the proper internal preload on the springs, the caps/adjusters installed properly, and the fork working properly.  Most of the forks are internally damaged so bad the entire cartridges have to be replaced.

RT takes a real beating on this, because they let anyone with $1000 and a fax machine be a RT "Center".  Most RT Centers don't build one set of forks a month.  "My friend who is a great mechanic" or "This guy who used to work on Nicky's PW80" is responsible for even more damage.  So what happens is RT screws themselves because then the consumers say "RT screwed up my forks".  I ask them "RT in Corona California did this?" (knowing that RT in CA had very good techs), and the answer is always, "no, RT in East Kalamazoo did this".  Well, that is not RT, just RT's mistake.

We don't sell Axxion Valve Kits over the counter for this reason.  And our kits are WAY simpler to install.  We have some people who insist that after they spend 8K for a bike, 5K on parts, 20K on a truck, 5K on a trailer, 2K on safety gear, 10K on tires, hotels, gas, food, etc, that they don't need to pay us the $200 we charge for labor, oil, and cleaner to prepare their forks and then guarantee the performance (parts are typically $3-400 more).  So they buy a GV kit and then destroy their forks, and even worse, their racing effort.

The only kits we don't discourage people from installing are RT emulator kits.  Cartridge forks will be butchered by anyone else.  Most likely, they will never admit that to anyone.  If you have GV forks, we have some special shims we can add to that kit to make it act about 85% as good as an Axxion Valve, so you don't have to buy our parts necessarily.  The GV is a brass part.  We find they corrode in oil and generally add to the contamination of certain oils.  I don't sell RT oil.  I don't think that their $25 per quart oil is 200% better than the other 6 premium lubricants you can buy for $12.50.  Plus, it means a seal leak or oil change will cost you $200.

I will submit this, and then send the rest immediately...



max@traxxion.com

Part 2, continued from previous message...

LE doesn't use an aftermarket valve kit, and claims that the stock pistons work fine.  They offer a lower price than their competitors.  The problem with this philosophy is that KYB and Showa damping philosophies are typically diametrically opposed.  They both can't work well.  Our parts work closer to Showa stock stuff.  If you notice, no one complains about GSXR6/750 bump absorbing ability (Showa), while everyone who rides a GSXR1000(KYB) says they suck.  Ohlins stock stuff is like this.(Ohlins and KYB are interrelated).  We don't use Ohlins pistons in Ohlins forks even.  They do have alternate parts, but they are impossible to get.

Not using an aftermarket high flow piston kit is like rejetting a bike without a jett kit.  You can get a bike to run good by changing the main jett and shimming the needle, but it will be no where near the performance you would attain if you had alternate slide springs, air bleeds, pilots, retapered needles, etc.  There just isn't any comparison.  But you will pay less.

There is little comparison in any OEM fork and an Ohlins RT fork.  All OE stuff is 20mm and all Ohlins stuff is 25mm.  GSXR1000 forks are closest to philophy of Ohlins, but that is because of their interrelations.

Stigg Petterson of PPS got screwed into oblivion by Ohlins.  He built and supported Ohlins here in the US for ages, and then they pulled the rug out from under him, and let a large distributor sell their product.  Now what you get is just a chick on the phone at Parts Unlimited asking for a part number.  They have no service, no support, and it doesn't matter whether you weigh 100 pounds or 300 pounds, you get the next box on the shelf.  We have a very difficult time supporting Ohlins customers.  We can't get parts (in less than several months), and the US HQ is in a state of being restructured.

Stig used to support Ohlins customers because he was making the sale.  Now that he has been screwed nearly out of the suspension business, he is importing wheels as well, and doing consulting.  He will help Ohlins customers, but you have to pay.

This all played into Penske's hands a few years back.  I built their brand in the MC industry and serviced and supported their product.  Now they want to sell masses of shocks, so they let LP sell their shocks, so I am stuck as well.  You can save money by buying a shock there, but they have no service and support, just surfers on the phone.  "Dude, Penske's rule.  Rebound?  I don't know which knob that is, call Traxxion Dynamics."  Well then we have to charge you for that service, and the cost is whatever you saved, to perfectly blunt.

An interesting story someone pointed out to me  about products and service...

1. Quality Product
2. Excellent Service
3. Low Price

You can only have 2 of these facets at anyone time.  You can have 1 & 2, but not 3.  You can have 1 & 3, but not 2.  And so on, you get the idea.

We only offer 1 & 2.  If I can't have a viable business offering this, I will close up.  When it comes to suspension, you are dealing with a potetially deadly environment, and as far as I am concerned, price isn't a factor in what I do here.  If I can't make a product and service that people can afford and use safely, then I will go into another business.

GMD Computrak does suspension work,  but they specialize in chassis work.  You will find most fast privateers use our suspension service and Computrak's chassis service.  A good example is Valvoline Suzuki.  But you will get good help and support from the Computrak guys as well.  They attend loads of races and work as hard as anybody does.

We are in the process of establishing trackside reps around America.  There will only be 6-8 of such reps, ever.  Our parent company has logged jillions of miles doing trackside support over the past 5 years, but we are not fully supporting any club properly.  We just can't be everywhere at once.  So with our new Axxion Centers, hopefully we can be.  The Axxion Center reps are stand alone businessmen, so if you need their help as you travel from region to region, you will have to cough up.  But if you buy from your local guy, and only race regionally, you will have a friend and an ally who will support you for free.  This will leave Traxxion Dynamics free to continue to develop the products that will carry racing suspension into the future.

I hope this answers some questions, I am sure I just kicked the can of worms here, but that's ok, it won't be the first time!

Max McAllister
President
Traxxion Dynamics, Inc.

max@traxxion.com

PS, we are weeks away from finishing up a cash paying contingency program for FUSA, CCS, WERA, WERA National, and assorted other clubs.  Novice and lightweight riders, don't despair, we will have money for you too.  Hopefully, another reason to choose our company.  No suspension company in history has ever had a cash contingency program.  We intend to lead the way there as well.

max@traxxion.com

PSS, our website is

www.traxxion.com

There is a lot of general info there.

Don't ask me why I chose that cartoon character on the left, but I think it is pretty funny!  I feel like that thing looks sometimes! :o

bweber

Max,
Thanks for the thorough explanation.  I am curious as to what is usually screwed up when you see RT forks.  I assume the problems are:
1) Cap incorrectly installed so that the orifice at the end of the damping rod is either smashed and destroyed, or the cap is not screwed down enough so that the rebound is always too fast
2) the peening at the end of the shafts to lock the nuts in place are not filed off properly leaving either stripped threads so the nut can not be retightened or too much is filed off and the adjuster is not held in place
3) incorrect bypass holes or no bypass holes drilled (when necessary)
4) smashed cartridges from clamping in a vice
5) cut o-rings and bad/incorrectly installed bushings

I am not trying to be a smart ass, but do you personally install every valve yourself?  I know of several auto repair shops where the owner/manager is meticulous and can fix anything, but he hires kids out of high school who think that just because they learned how to install brake pads in high school shop, they can jump right into a mechanic position.  Training is not always the answer if the person does not have the natural ability (just like racing).

I believe you on the spring issue, and I know that many, many people probably install gold valve kits wrong.  I do think your Axxion valve is probably better than the RT because you started with RT and improved on that design.  I also believe in the placebo effect.  Many times, if someone believes they have the best suspension components in the world installed in their bike, then their front end will feel and perform better than ever.  The power of the mind is fantastic!

I raced a TL-R with Traxxion forks and never had a problem with them, but I can also say that about RT forks too.  I am not breaking lap records, but I am scooting right along.  Major fork problems would definitely be noticeable. Maybe my 2001 GSX-R forks would be the third set of RT valve you have ever seen correctly installed!   ;D  I like having the option of removing my valves and adjusting the shim stack if I don't think it is perfect, and RT kit let me do that.

Thanks for the input; you are the man when it comes to this stuff!  For 99.9% of people, they probably are better off sending their forks to you and having them done right, with a good (sometimes perfect) baseline setup.  Part of what I like about racing is working on the bike, so that is why I first started using RT kits 5 years ago.

max@traxxion.com

The items you listed are all accurate, but only a partial.  We have seen the bottom bolts tightened so tight with an air wrench that the bolts were about to break (front wheel would then fall of of bike with lowers attached), severe gauging and scracthing to the damping rod, cartridge bushings destroyed, rebound untouched from factory (as RT instruction don't include specific info on what to do), bent checkplates (fork won't damp), and NO checkplates installed (like an engine without pistons) and the greatest of all, I have seen the Gold Valve (a compression related component) installed onto the end of the damping rod (where the rebound piston goes).

As for placebo effect, there is a great deal of that.  That is why I have a magic wand I keep at the track, as a joke of course.  But what we do in the fork is make it soak bumps.  Nobody ever crashed a bike because it was mushy.  They crash when they are fully leaned over and chatter or don't soak bumps.  So in a way, if we have done our job properly, you may not even realize the impact we have had on your safety.  You will see lower lap times and improved tire wear right away however.

As to your query about my staff, I have not installed a valve in a customer's fork in about 3 years.  If my staff weren't both highly paid and competent at their jobs, don't you think our customers would know that by now?

Our customers pay a premium for the finest components, service and performance available.  I see that they get it.  When guy or gal buys premium suspension, they have to dig deep.  We don't want them to be disappointed.  We want them to be shocked at how much better their bike is, so that they feel like they got more than their money's worth.  That is how we make our next customers.  I rarely, if ever, advertise.  Our customers help us with that.  And they are better than any print ad I could buy.
 ;)

Super Dave

Exactly, Max...

Now, sometimes the guys that are doing work don't seem to have any relevance to the real racing world, Max does.  Max road raced quite extensively in the SE's rough and tumble world.  I think you won a championship or two.  

And Max did Arenacross also.  A very good knowledge base for understanding how a suspension should work over bumps, etc.

As for Max not doing all the work.  Yes, it has to happen at sometime so that the monster can go make something cool.  Traxxion Generator!  There's an example.  

Mike is outstanding at the shop too.  Very knowledgeable.

In my experience, I have had few people that I could ask suspension questions of over the phone, and then get an explination on what's happeing and what I change in the adjustments to make it all better. 8)

And Max...

I think the guy does look like you... ;D
Super Dave

max@traxxion.com

Thanks SD!  By the way, you will all know when Traxxion Dynamics starts making money because I will purchase a full head of hair to replace what has left me since the start of this company!  Then I will work on the green skin tone as well.

Also, if anyone doesn't want me to answer their questions in a forum, my email is max@traxxion.com

EX#996

#30
Thanks Max for your input!

Dawn   ;)
Paul and Dawn Buxton

TZDeSioux

QuoteThanks SD!
You're welcome! :)

Bernie

I hate to sound like I'm jumping on the bandwagon here, but I have had great experiences with Traxxion.  I know nothing of the voodoo magic in my forks, and therefore I am happy to pay Max's fair price for the knowlege and services of his company.  I am sure it was painfully obvious that I am ignornant when I spoke with the folks at Traxxion, but they were great to speak with and didn't treat me like an ignorant fool.  Their turnaround time has always been faster than I expected and their service top notch.

Eddie#200

#33
If anyone has any doubts about how well the changes work... contact me!