Rules proposal - 3.4.2 - For 2008 REV 4/03/07

[Super Dave]

Proposal

Current rule:

3.4.2 - CCS Series Gridding Procedures
A. Unless otherwise stated, riders will be gridded in order of entry for CCS Sprint Events.  (Note:  CCS affiliates may use different grid order procedures.  Check with the local organization for specific information on gridding.)


Proposed Rule Change

3.4.2 CCS Series Gridding Procedures
A. Unless otherwise stated, riders will be gridded pre entered riders first by most current regional class points standings, post entered riders by order of entry.  If a rider has points in multiple regions, the highest point standing will be used.  (Note:  CCS affiliates may use different grid order procedures.  Check with the local organization for specific information on gridding.)
     i.  Riders will be gridded for opening regional events by order of entry.

Proposal - Version MkII

3.4.2 CCS Series Gridding Procedures
A. Unless otherwise stated, riders will be gridded pre entered riders first by most current regional class standings with host region riders first, other region riders at random; post entered riders by order of entry.  If a rider has class standings in multiple regions, the highest class standing will be used.  (Note:  CCS affiliates may use different grid order procedures.  Check with the local organization for specific information on gridding.)
     i.  Riders will be gridded for opening region events by order of entry only.

[Super Dave]

I have not made this proposal formally to Kevin or Eric at this time.  I would appreciate input on ways to potentially improve this idea.

I understand that there are those that prefer to have entries based on pre entry dates.  This rule is probably something that you're not going to support.

There are many that do recognize that their grids are determined by their entry.  I, and I'm sure others, recognize that there is a great deal of cyniscism about grids.  "I'm gridded there because I didn't pre enter for the whole season in December."

Yes, a really good rider can win from the back. 

But is it reasonable to try to reward consistent customers?  I feel that it is.  I've always felt that there are ways to try to keep racers involved in the sport a little longer than the two to three years that seem to be the average.  I've always felt this was a way to reward those who are regular competitors with an organization.

Certainly, this opportunity would only apply to those CCS areas that are under the direct control of CCS.  Other entities such as Henry's region in Florida, Dean's region in the Great Plains, and the LRRS region would have the opportunity to use or not use this system.

I have discussed this possibility over many, many years.  The software was not available to CCS in the 2001 era, but I would think that it should be an opportunity now. 

Personally, I haven't been entering as many races as I used to just a few years ago because of this gridding issue. 

I look forward to replies.

[SnacktimeKC]

You'd think with all the fancy computers in the world these days this wouldn't be that hard to implament. It's got my support.   -Snack

[wolf44]

+1

[bambam]

 I ike to pre register so for grid position but that is really only so that the fast guys have to pass me. in a short race it gives me a better chance at a better finish.

[JBraun]

For 2008, fine.

If they did it this year I would probably blow a gasket. A change like this would need to be made before pre-entries opened for the year.

[Sobottka]

For 2008, fine.

If they did it this year I would probably blow a gasket. A change like this would need to be made before pre-entries opened for the year.

+1!!  i busted my ass to pre-reg for this season! 

[Court Jester]

i think it should be based on points. if you are doing the full season and you are busting your butt to make the races, that shows you are a good customer as well as shows you are fighting for something. i think grids should be done by points. just my two cents

[PJ721]

yup...makes sense to reward the ones that do the best and race the most often...

[Super Dave]

Totally agree on the 2008 thing guys.  Really this is the best time to probably develop and submit a proposal.  We'll all be available to get ideas, etc.  By the time fall and winter hits, we all loose momentum.

If there is anything that could be done to improve this, or to cover ground that isn't covered for various contingencies, I would appreciate the input.

[weggieman]

Damn all that points and pre-entry crap. I wanna see heat races!!!

[catman]

+1 on some of the faster guys up front =less side by side racing- things will spread out quicker without incidents usually...It is just clubracing where safety is #1........But JB is right - preentries have been made for the season already,by some folks, great 4 "08"

[Gixxerblade]

I think it is a silly idea because I like starting at the front and there will be no way that I will ever have enough points to start there. Hell half the time I get the holeshot which in itself makes my weekend. I really don't care either way. I guess I can get the holeshot from the rear too. :D

[PJ]

I would totally support this suggested rule change. I suspect anyone who has had to thread the needle, take risks and otherwise dodge slower pre-entered riders to get to the front right off the start would agree.

[ahastings]

I agree 100% Dave. . I have formally submitted a proposal to CCS to grid by points for the last 2 years with no response.

[Jason748]

I agree, sound reasonable to me.

[Ridgeway]

I think gridding pre-entries by points and post entries by order of entry as Dave has specified is a good compromise.  Assuming technical / computer issues are a thing of the past, I don't see any reason not to do this.

If you want to be gridded by points, you still need to pre-register, so CCS still gets their money and has some idea what their event attendence will be.

If you gridded pre AND post entries by points, I could see a risk of losing a lot of money on rainy days etc. when people might choose not to show up.

I think the rule change is ideal.  I think that the total number of pre-entries could actually increase with these terms, they'd just tend to be near-event pre-entries, vs. several months in advance.

[rwracer]

Proposal

Proposed Rule Change

3.4.2 CCS Series Gridding Procedures
A. Unless otherwise stated, riders will be gridded pre entered riders first by most current regional class points standings, post entered riders by order of entry.  If a rider has points in multiple regions, the highest point standing will be used.  (Note:  CCS affiliates may use different grid order procedures.  Check with the local organization for specific information on gridding.)
     i.  Riders will be gridded for opening regional events by order of entry.

Note the part in Bold in Section A.  This condition presumes that the race schedules are effectively the same in all regions as otherwise it introduces a clear bias in the rules (should an SE rider get gridded ahead of an MA rider in an MA race just because his season started sooner, or vice-versa toward the end of the season just because MA has more races?)  It's not about arbitrating the bias but rather avoiding it all together.

If you must have this condition then I would suggest adding that the points used for gridding come only from the region where the race is being held.  May not seem fair but overall it's less biased than the alternative.

Thoughts?

[Super Dave]

I think I have it covered, so I'll elaborate.

Grids would be based on point standings, not points.  So, were talking first, second, third in a region, not who's got the most points.  Similar to ROC.  Champions first, first loosers second, etc.

[Team_Serpent]

This is probably the best solution I've heard on this subject.  As Ridgeway said - it may even increase pre-entry numbers.

I agree changing - "If a rider has points in multiple regions, the highest point standing will be used". To something more along the lines of Dave's new post would be best.

For example if it is a MW & GP combined event and both points leaders from those regions pre-entered they would get the first two grid spots by random computer selection.

Not sure how you would handle a pre-entered points leader from say the SE region at a MW & GP combined event though.  Doesn't seem like they should get the third spot on the grid since it's not their region but can't think of a solution to this right off.  The only reason I bring it up is because this scenario could happen at a Suzuki, Yamaha, or Kawasaki paying event. 

[Super Dave]

I agree on that.  I left some of the wording a bit vague on my first writing because I didn't know exactly how to put it together.

In many ways, I wouldn't complain if a top rated rider from the SE showed up at a MW event and got a good grid.  But I haven't decided if it was "fair", and I'm using the quotes because I feel it could go either way.

Whether this would be adopted by LRRS, Florida Region, ASMA, or Trackaddix, I don't know.  So, while if this was adopted by CCS, there is no saying that other "owned" CCS regions would go by those rules for combined events.

Still, it might help CCS owned regions.

[Super Dave]

Please note, I'm not sure if I made it clear, I have left an opening for problems with getting the current points.  Sometimes, CCS is beholden to getting points from regions.  Might be a personel problem, software, protests, etc.  So, I stated "most current regional" standings.  Yes, some keep their own points, but CCS points are the official points.  Some events are very close together, and while everyone tries to get everything done in a reasonable fashion, sometimes they can't get done. 

CCS should have that "out" allowed to them.  Yeah, the grids might not be based on the exact standings of the previous event, but they would still be based on the "most current regional standings."

Am I making sense?

[JBraun]

The only reason I bring it up is because this scenario could happen at a Suzuki, Yamaha, or Kawasaki paying event. 

This is a very important point, and one I can't think of a solution to.
If a Jensen or Wood comes to a CCS weekend to make their living it's hard to grid them at the back.

Yes they're fast and should be able to make it to the front, but there are some fast locals also. (I believe Farrell and Hall both beat Denning @ Blackhawk last year.)

Good grid positions could mean a lot to those guys, it's how they pay the bills.

[Addicted2Danger]

I think its a great idea Dave.  This is not a topic where you can make everybody happy, but I think this is the best idea I've seen yet.  I havent pre-registered for any events this year, but I still think the only fair way to implement a change like this would be to wait until the 2008 season.

[rwracer]

I think I have it covered, so I'll elaborate.

Grids would be based on point standings, not points.  So, were talking first, second, third in a region, not who's got the most points.  Similar to ROC.  Champions first, first loosers second, etc.

It always comes down to points Dave.  How else do you differentiate between two Second Places from different regions?  My guess would be points right?

So yes, you're right in that Points Standings could offer some level of insulation, but then again it all goes away when you fall back to points to differentiate two (or three or four or more) riders with the same standings.

Not saying its a bad thing, just something to consider, it could be that no one really cares.

And for those of you clapping at the "new idea", as Arnie already pointed out... old idea, latest incarnation.  And it all gets swept away if you don't make a convincing case to CCS and they actually implement it.  If it doesn't get implemented it doesn't matter how good it is.

[Super Dave]

Actually, points still don't have to differentiate.  This isn't a rule, so if you have an idea for changing that, you could add to the thread.  I've talked about the idea for years and years, but I've never submitted a proposal on this topic.  Generally, I've always had too much happening late in the year to develop the idea.  Well, I've got a little space to look at it, and more racers are active on the forum this time of year.

Therefore, differentiation in regional positions could be done by performance index.  One could also grid intially by "hosting" region first, then by performance index.

Example.  MAM in May is a combined Great Plains and Midwest region event.  It is put on by the TrackAddix folks which operates the Great Plains region.  As it is "their" event, why not allow the "host" region to have their people at the front.

WERA operates their sportsman series with with pre entered riders by points, then post entered riders. 

Their differentiation of riders with the same regional position is to let the computer randomly select who goes where, not by points or anything else.  Honestly, I don't think this makes or breaks the concept, but does ask for some refinement because it has the possibility of being implemented, it needs to be covered.

[rwracer]

Therefore, differentiation in regional positions could be done by performance index.  One could also grid intially by "hosting" region first, then by performance index.

Exactly, so the problem becomes how many layers of anti-biasing is enough?  Do we put it to a vote?  That doesn't often work well.  I'd love to say I have the answer but I don't know that one person does.

I think ultimately someone has to make a decision and then make the rule and then either happily or begrudgingly everyone will follow it.

For me I think anything over straight entry order is an improvement.  And I do like the idea of including stats into the calculation because it's relatively easy to implement and still has at least some degree of objectiveness.

Maybe giving deference to the host region riders is the best approach but does than mean that riders will travel to other regions less?  I don't know.

As imperfect as it is, Wera's approach seems to be supported by the majority of riders so maybe simpler is better.

[Super Dave]

Well, I think, ultimately, it's in Kevin Elliott's lap.  And that's a good thing.  Benevolence eliminates some whining.  But I don't expect anything to be implemented without some reasonable discussion of its merits.

[Super Dave]

I've made a second version of the proposal at my first post, and I've labeled it MkII.

It is similar to the first one.  A couple things that I changed:

I have left the first region event to have grids based on entry alone.  I think it's reasonable to allow CCS to have the opportunity to have those early entries.  Even I can usually find some money or some credit cards to do my first event entry. 

But I changed the wording so that each region's opener is specifically gridded by preentry.  The problem I saw was that potentially, a rider could race in a region that starts before another and have a standing in points that one region does not have.  I would prefer to favor the host riders to have an opportunity to be gridded on reasonable footing with the pre entry grid at that point.

Next, I changed the wording to allow for the host region riders to occupy the first position in the grid list and the next regions' riders to be gridded at "random".  So, if it's a MW race, the Midwest guy would get the first spot among the "leaders" positions, first spot among the guys in second, etc.  I do believe that CCS differentiates tracks as regionally specific.  This would serve to be a guide to what the host region would be.

[Team_Serpent]

As imperfect as it is, Wera's approach seems to be supported by the majority of riders so maybe simpler is better.

If that's the case then I believe WERA grids by points for that region and if you are coming from another region and have no points in the regional event you wish to race then you are grid by order of entry behind all other competitors that have earned points in that region.

In combined regional events I believe they grid as I described above - points leaders from each region get first grid spots by random computer selection and so on down the line.

[Super Dave]

+1

I read WERA rules just a little bit ago.  My proposal would be similar to their rules, but would allow for first event pre entries for grid.  Yes, that is very different from WERA.  I didn't do it to be different, but I felt that it is important to influx CCS with some money early in the year.  That's my feeling as a racer, that there needs to be some support of a business that one frequents.

[SloKidd]

+1

I like the revised oprposal.   

[Ducmarc]

I'm still a fan of qualifying and I think my latest injury was somewhat caused by starting on the last row and then trying to catch the leaders in the 1st couple of laps.  I believe your proprosal would equalize everybody as to where you grid after the 1st couple of races. If you're only good for 10th in that class after 2 or 3 races, you'll be 10th anyways.  Maybe this proposal would stop the professional cherry pickers from showing up every now and then and picking up factory money. Since I normally race every race in the season, this would help me, especially towards the end where it really counts.

[jryer]

I'm still a fan of qualifying and I think my latest injury was somewhat caused by starting on the last row and then trying to catch the leaders in the 1st couple of laps.  I believe your proprosal would equalize everybody as to where you grid after the 1st couple of races. If you're only good for 10th in that class after 2 or 3 races, you'll be 10th anyways.  Maybe this proposal would stop the professional cherry pickers from showing up every now and then and picking up factory money. Since I normally race every race in the season, this would help me, especially towards the end where it really counts.

I too am in favor of qualifying for various reasons I've already stated before, but admit that points would be an improvement over what we have now.

[Garywc]

By points would be a good way to do it.
qualifying would take too much time. it works for the ASRA races because there are only a few races and at certain events.
as far as someone mentioned using practice for qualifying that wouldn't be good either because its practice . it may be the first time someone was on the track and needs to figure out lines and gearing and might not be able to run to there best ability.
also about the having points in another region shouldn't be it should be for the region your racing in. so if you get points in Daytona you will have points in every region then every double points weekend will give you points in some other regions