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Racing Discussion => Racing Discussion => Topic started by: britx303 on May 16, 2014, 06:18:33 PM

Title: ccs trial run?
Post by: britx303 on May 16, 2014, 06:18:33 PM
hey everyone,i currently race elseWera and I am giving a serious thought to trying ccs at summit next weekend.i race an fzr400/600,and cannot figure where it would best fit in besides thunderbike(I believe).yes ive read through the rulebook,but we know how that goes.also can I show up with my current orgs license as eligibility,or contact someone ahead of time?thanks in advance!
Title: Re: ccs trial run?
Post by: roadracer162 on May 16, 2014, 07:02:08 PM
Truthfully, its not legal in Thunderbike either. Because it is a hybrid of FZR400/FZR600 then it would fit into the GP and GT class. Since it displaces 600(599) then it would be legal for the middleweight stuff. In all due to the age it wouldn't be competitive against any of the middleweight machinery. CCS just isn't set up for older machinery built like what you have. CCS is typically geared for modern machinery.

What would make your machine a little more competitive is if the 600 motor was downsized to 565cc and then it would be legal in lightweight.
Title: Re: ccs trial run?
Post by: bruce71198 on May 16, 2014, 07:07:06 PM
I think because of its age it can run in the LWGP, GTL and LWF40.
Title: Re: ccs trial run?
Post by: roadracer162 on May 16, 2014, 07:48:45 PM
Quote from: bruce71198 on May 16, 2014, 07:07:06 PM
I think because of its age it can run in the LWGP, GTL and LWF40.

No it can't. LW GT or GP is up to 565cc. Haven't seen any exceptions for older bikes. The answer I have always been given is that the motor has always been intended as a middleweight so as long as it displaces 599 and not 565cc then it is middleweight. If something changes then I will be racing my 1991 FZR600 in GT lights. I don't see that happening because then my 2000 Ducati 748 would be legal too.
Title: Re: ccs trial run?
Post by: britx303 on May 16, 2014, 09:23:43 PM
dang I don't know why I thought thunderbike.i could have sworn that's what I was told to run it in when I inquired last year. great, now I need a 400 engine to put back in. :banghead:
Title: Re: ccs trial run?
Post by: roadracer162 on May 16, 2014, 10:55:16 PM
Or just run it and don't tell anyone. It's only me that will identify the difference in the motor.
Title: Re: ccs trial run?
Post by: bruce71198 on May 18, 2014, 06:30:58 AM
LIGHTWEIGHT FORMULA 40 (Amateur & Expert Divisions)
Single cylinder, Unlimited displacement
Two stroke, Unlimited displacement
Twin cylinder, air cooled, push-rod, Unlimited displacement Twin cylinder, liquid cooled, 3 or less valves per cylinder,
Unlimited displacement
Twin cylinder, liquid cooled, 4 valve per cylinder, up to 750cc Twin cylinder, liquid cooled, non-desmodromic valves, 4 valve per
cylinder, up to 800cc
Three cylinder, air cooled, non-fuel injected, up to 1200cc
Four cylinder, air-cooled, up to 1200cc
Four cylinder, liquid cooled, up to 565cc
Four cylinder, liquid cooled, 1990 to 1992 model year, up to 650cc Four cylinder, liquid cooled (oil or water), pre-1990 model year, up to
860cc

Am I reading this wrong?
Title: Re: ccs trial run?
Post by: britx303 on May 18, 2014, 09:01:48 AM
Is formula 40 based on the racers age? Im 4 years too early,if so
Title: Re: ccs trial run?
Post by: roadracer162 on May 18, 2014, 11:00:13 AM
Unless they have changed it to allow these hybrid bikes this is my take of it. LW formula 40 includes a couple of classes and what you have stated are the absolutes. Thunderbike and LW GP are inclusive to the LW F40 class. LW F40 was not a stand alone class. The portion stating liquid cooled four cylinder up to 650cc is from the Thunderbike class when used in a 600 frame. It is not legal to put a FZR600 motor into a FZR400 frame. Thunderbike rules state same frame, cases and head from that model bike.

LW GP state liquid cooled inline four up to 565cc. So if you follow LW GP rules where a motor swap is allowed then the 565 cc limit comes into play. If you follow Thunderbike rules then a motor swap is not allowed.

I must say I hope you are correct because I would love to use my FZR630cc motor in my FZR 400 frame. Of course the only class it will be legal for and have a chance is the LW F40 class.
Title: Re: ccs trial run?
Post by: britx303 on May 18, 2014, 04:47:33 PM
ccs rulebook is grey with my bike :ahhh: plus I just got off the phone with my tire guy who also runs a 400/600,and as soon as I mentioned coming to ccs,he asked if im going to run it in thunderbike before I even mentioned the class. I think I need a ccs official :biggrin: 
Title: Re: ccs trial run?
Post by: roadracer162 on May 18, 2014, 05:01:26 PM
 


6.4 THUNDERBIKE - Thunderbike machines, except single cylinder machines, are based upon production models, sold by manufacturers and their dealers in North America for street use. Proof of compliance rests with the competitor entering the motorcycle. Single cylinder and 250 GP machines are exempt from production and street use requirements. All machines must have unaltered VIN numbers.
NOTE: BMW HP2 and Buell XBRR machines are excluded from this class.
6.4.1 Production machines not sold by manufacturers and their dealers for street use in North America via normal commercial channels may be approved on an individual basis. CCS will maintain a list of non-standard approved models and that list will be available at each event from the Race Director/Referee.
A. CCS reserves the right to re-factor machines at any time. CCS will notify current licensees 30 days prior to any change. Changes will take effect 30 days from the original date of notification.
6.4.2. All machines must meet the equipment standards of Section 5, as well as the following:
A. Frame, cylinder head(s) and engine cases must be from the same production model motorcycle
   
Title: Re: ccs trial run?
Post by: britx303 on May 18, 2014, 05:09:33 PM
yup that's me then,same production model of fzr's :biggrin:
Title: Re: ccs trial run?
Post by: roadracer162 on May 18, 2014, 05:11:38 PM
I like the way you think, but sadly I have been called out in the past. Can you get away with it? Certainly if nobody protested. Is it really and advantage? No, unless you are racing against me and my much heavier FZR 600 based frame.some 25lbs advantage in stock form
Title: Re: ccs trial run?
Post by: roadracer162 on May 18, 2014, 05:14:43 PM
If you do get a letter allowing you to run your bike legally, please forward that letter to me. I would love to run my FZR 400 frame with my FZR 600 motor, and since it is pre 1990 I can build it to a full 735cc with no problems(Bob Shy comes to mind).

Honestly I would love to run my FZR and many times I have though of moving to WERA just for it. Just that the distance is so much further from West Palm Beach, Fl
Title: Re: ccs trial run?
Post by: britx303 on May 18, 2014, 09:04:35 PM
no way,i wouldn't actually try that just for that fear of being busted too. im trying to sell some other bikes and nab a stock 400,thats fairly close to me, for the new 500 class you guys have if I cant get approval on my 4/6.talk about cutting it close with the races next weekend,but life is never simple :biggrin:.if youre worried about distance,my next mid-atlantic wera round is road Atlanta........I live in Maryland!! our schedule is really cruddy this year,which is why im trolling here for a place to go. the ccs mid-atlantic schedule is damn near perfect for me,if you guys would just let me run my bike!! :banghead:
Title: Re: ccs trial run?
Post by: roadracer162 on May 19, 2014, 09:29:06 AM
Ive got four 400 motors. Two totals loss, one of which has 60 mm pistons. Nice power but working on some coolant sealing issues. The other two are both stock with charging system, one a basket case which I am still racing and the other intended for the street bike.

I would love to put all the FZR stuff into good use. I raced on the FZR stuff for a long time and did so very inexpensively. Then I went to the Ducati lineup and blew my race budget out of the water.
Title: Re: ccs trial run?
Post by: britx303 on May 19, 2014, 04:45:24 PM
yes, I thought I recognized your name from the 400 list. okay the verdict on where I can race in ccs with the 400/600 from E. Kelcher is Middle GP,Unlimited GP, GTU and GTO. It is looking like I wont be able to nab up a stock 400 racer that's closeby in time for the weekend coming up.i really wish I would have known about the 500 ss class a few months ago.maybe I will give the GP classes a go this weekend..........
Title: Re: ccs trial run?
Post by: apriliaman on May 19, 2014, 05:26:05 PM
It's crazy that the rules for the bikes you can have in thunderbike is a ducati 749R superbike or a 1991 suzuki gsxr 1100 built up to1200,there are other bikes.Yet you cannot race a fzr 400 frame with a 600 engine.The rules need to be redone.
Title: Re: ccs trial run?
Post by: britx303 on May 20, 2014, 06:21:09 PM
phew.....just checked various results from the classes im approved to race in, man you guys really don't like our bikes around here :lmao: I understand the promoting of new bikes for racing,but the shame really to me is there are quite a few of us that have a 400 chassis with the 600,that will jump at the chance to run in a class with ccs where we would be even remotely competitive. the results im seeing,i don't think even the fastest fzr400/600 guys(not me whatsoever) would run even in the front half of the pack,maybe im wrong,but it just seems so.im not giving up just yet though,just picked a bad time to make the mental commitment to come to ccs.  hey apriliaman,do you have a spare 400 engine lying around :biggrin:
Title: Re: ccs trial run?
Post by: bruce71198 on May 21, 2014, 07:12:23 AM
It may not hurt to petition the powers that be to let you run that bike in lightweight. Kevin Elliot is pretty accessible via email.
Title: Re: ccs trial run?
Post by: apriliaman on May 21, 2014, 07:32:46 AM
I dont have a spare engine but I have a bunch of spare parts.
Title: Re: ccs trial run?
Post by: roadracer162 on May 21, 2014, 01:24:26 PM
It may not hurt to petition. I have in the past with the FZR 600 which in my mind is at a disadvantage to the 4/600 set up based upon weight alone, and I was dismissed because the FZR 600 is a middleweight bike. 

The FZR 4/600 could be legal for LW GP and GT lights if the 600 motor is downsized to 565cc such as the most current GSXR 600 team challenge racer. 
Title: Re: ccs trial run?
Post by: britx303 on May 21, 2014, 04:00:00 PM
what about blanking one plug,or however those guys do that,and run it as a 450 triple.......the weekend is pretty much here at this point,so better planning for next time,dang.
Title: Re: ccs trial run?
Post by: roadracer162 on May 21, 2014, 04:29:47 PM
There are several ways to do it one of which is the same dimensions used for the FZR 400 to 565cc. The FZR 600 block and transmission would be a better platform but that is against Thunderbike class rules. What was done was to build the FZR 400 up using the 600 whether FZR or YZF and build from there. The FZR 400 head does not flow as much as the FZR 600, and the FZR 600 head ported just catches up to the YZF 600. Put that motor against the reduced GSXR 600 and it still doesn't compete. The chassis of a GSXR is way better than any FZR even the FZR 400
Title: Re: ccs trial run?
Post by: britx303 on May 21, 2014, 06:33:32 PM
my 600 is a totally stock fzr engine besides advancing the timing. I don't really want to be out there with modern 600's....just different animals.besides,id be getting lapped enough to get flagged off,so I thought.not sure where I was going with the 3 cyl thought(or lack thereof :lmao:) im just racking my brain to figure what I can do with what ive got. hell I might even teardown my fzr/ex500 and put a stock ex500 together for the 500SS.gee its Wednesday,what could go right :biggrin:
Title: Re: ccs trial run?
Post by: bruce71198 on May 21, 2014, 06:55:06 PM
GP rules kind of cater to builder bikes, non common engine/chassis combinations. CCS needs to look at it this way and honestly look at what is competitive with what. I think the best competition for your 4oo/600 is the current lightweight bikes.
Title: Re: ccs trial run?
Post by: britx303 on May 21, 2014, 07:17:38 PM
Quote from: bruce71198 on May 21, 2014, 06:55:06 PM
GP rules kind of cater to builder bikes, non common engine/chassis combinations. CCS needs to look at it this way and honestly look at what is competitive with what. I think the best competition for your 4oo/600 is the current lightweight bikes.
at this point,i think this is correct. looking at lightweight GP summit laptimes are comparable to mine,so its a safer closing speed with each other,in my opinion. all I can do now is see what K.Elliott says,besides "GET A NEW BIKE!!!!"
Title: Re: ccs trial run?
Post by: roadracer162 on May 21, 2014, 08:15:17 PM
@ Brit and Bruce, I believe you are on the right track but Brit you are already prepared to hear the response you will get,"get a new competitive bike". Been there!  I find that my times on the 1991 FZR 600 is essentially the same as what I achieve on the 2004 Ducati 800. The SV 650 is also a close match. What I was told is, "if you want to run a 600 get a new bike". I've also heard that CCS is not in the business of making your bike legal for a class(not by CCS officials). I have asked for the 2000 Ducati 748 be allowed in the GT and GP lightweight class. No go.
Title: Re: ccs trial run?
Post by: bruce71198 on May 21, 2014, 09:52:15 PM
But CCS has already set precedent by allowing the 600 in LW F40.
Title: Re: ccs trial run?
Post by: roadracer162 on May 21, 2014, 09:59:14 PM
The FZR 600 is legal in LW F40 class as long as it adheres to Thunderbike rules
Title: Re: ccs trial run?
Post by: Gino230 on May 22, 2014, 04:00:15 PM
Quote from: bruce71198 on May 21, 2014, 09:52:15 PM
But CCS has already set precedent by allowing the 600 in LW F40.


Yes, But as The Powers That Be have stated, LWF40 and TB are a mix of LW and MW, since they are sportsman classes.

You must remember that every time a rule is changed, they have to figure out every way which that rule can be applied to various bikes or combinations of frames / engines if swaps are allowed, which they are not in most classes. That is why it's difficult to get the rules changed. Look at the 500 class and all the drama that's going on there with what will be allowed!

WERA allows frame and engine swaps. CCS generally does not.

Too bad, we'd love to have you down here and we would welcome more participants in the LW classes.
Title: Re: ccs trial run?
Post by: britx303 on May 22, 2014, 04:34:17 PM
well at this point,i have contacted both deciding powers and its yet decided if I can run thunderbike. I thought this would be the best class for myself/bike,but if anyone here has another suggestion or input let me know.otherwise I will just man-up and run with the modern guys if that's the final word.in wera we do a 2 wave with them(modern 600's) out front anyhow,so if I get lapped by a few,oh well,ive gotten abit accustomed to getting buzzed by those bikes anyways. at this point im really looking forward to racing with ccs. :thumb:
Title: Re: ccs trial run?
Post by: bruce71198 on May 22, 2014, 06:29:11 PM
Quote from: Gino230 on May 22, 2014, 04:00:15 PM
Yes, But as The Powers That Be have stated, LWF40 and TB are a mix of LW and MW, since they are sportsman classes.

You must remember that every time a rule is changed, they have to figure out every way which that rule can be applied to various bikes or combinations of frames / engines if swaps are allowed, which they are not in most classes. That is why it's difficult to get the rules changed. Look at the 500 class and all the drama that's going on there with what will be allowed!

WERA allows frame and engine swaps. CCS generally does not.

Too bad, we'd love to have you down here and we would welcome more participants in the LW classes.

Thats what GP is for. Kind of no holds barred kind of bike. As for Thunder Bike, I dont think the 600 should be allowed as it is not very thunderous !!
Title: Re: ccs trial run?
Post by: britx303 on May 22, 2014, 07:28:42 PM
the rulebook does say under thunderbike, liquid cooled 4 cylinder 1990-1992 year up to 650cc.
Title: Re: ccs trial run?
Post by: roadracer162 on May 22, 2014, 08:12:48 PM
Quote from: britx303 on May 22, 2014, 07:28:42 PM
the rulebook does say under thunderbike, liquid cooled 4 cylinder 1990-1992 year up to 650cc.

I covered this already. Yes it does report that for a true FZR 600 which I have a 630cc motor for it. It also states in Thunderbike same frame, crankcase and head which means the FZR 400 frame must have an fzr400 crankcase, and head. What is allowed in this FZR 400 is if you were to install FZR 600 components into the FZR 400 crankcase then you are good to go. The FZR 600 crank does fit with a little machining. I have one such short block which I hope to put into one of my FZR 400 frames. The weak point of this motor will be the transmission.
Title: Re: ccs trial run?
Post by: roadracer162 on May 22, 2014, 08:19:36 PM
I have raced my FZR 600 because it is what I could afford. Racing is a rich man's game. I bought by 1991 FZR 600 for $1500. I spent another $2500 of motor work and an additional $1500 in accessory and suspension. I won the 2005 Florida regional championships in AM LW F40 and Thunderbike. I went to expert in 2006 and in 2007 I won the Florida regional championship in EX LW F40. The FZR 600 is comparable to a similar set up SV650 or my Ducati 800 which I spent $10k to build, and that's a mild build
Title: Re: ccs trial run?
Post by: britx303 on May 22, 2014, 08:33:52 PM
Quote from: roadracer162 on May 22, 2014, 08:12:48 PM
I covered this already. Yes it does report that for a true FZR 600 which I have a 630cc motor for it. It also states in Thunderbike same frame, crankcase and head which means the FZR 400 frame must have an fzr400 crankcase, and head. What is allowed in this FZR 400 is if you were to install FZR 600 components into the FZR 400 crankcase then you are good to go. The FZR 600 crank does fit with a little machining. I have one such short block which I hope to put into one of my FZR 400 frames. The weak point of this motor will be the transmission.
:biggrin:i know, I was giving a lighthearted response to the 600 not being very thunderous remark.but I wasn't having a pee-match,just playing.please again not pee matching with anyone :cheers:
Title: Re: ccs trial run?
Post by: roadracer162 on May 22, 2014, 09:32:35 PM
Ahhhh...i missed it, sorry.  Honestly I say race Thunderbike because i don't really believe you will be there tearing it up and beating everyone by a long shot.
Title: Re: ccs trial run?
Post by: britx303 on May 22, 2014, 10:12:07 PM
nope,i know I wont be spanking any backsides,whatsoever,but im fine with that.i would like to just get out there and do what I can do respectably and cleanly.
Title: Re: ccs trial run?
Post by: bruce71198 on May 22, 2014, 10:28:36 PM
Quote from: britx303 on May 22, 2014, 07:28:42 PM
the rulebook does say under thunderbike, liquid cooled 4 cylinder 1990-1992 year up to 650cc.

Ah, yes I do remember 90 through 92 those where some thunderous 600's but only when pumped to 650cc's, all the others, forget about it !
Title: Re: ccs trial run?
Post by: britx303 on May 26, 2014, 08:56:47 AM
 :thumb: the trial run was awesome!! I was always steered from CCS,but it goes to show I should just do what I feel "I"need to.thank you guys for fitting me in,and I will be back with yall at summit in a month :biggrin: I was surprised at how many people came up to me happy to see an fzr out there. some were guys that used to race one and some were sons of racers that raced on them.very,very cool,and I had an awesome time.thanks again!!!
Title: Re: ccs trial run?
Post by: roadracer162 on May 26, 2014, 11:01:22 AM
Brit, you have inspired me to get back out on my FZR.
Title: Re: ccs trial run?
Post by: Gino230 on May 26, 2014, 11:19:59 AM
Glad you got out and raced, CCS is a fun crowd and a good organization. I have been racing with them for 15 years now, and at times I have been slightly annoyed, but I always seem to end up having a good time and coming back for more.

Too often the forum is full of negatives. No organization is perfect and you will be hard pressed to make everyone happy, but I think they are pretty fair overall. Just don't get me started on rulebook interpretations ;)
Title: Re: ccs trial run?
Post by: SVbadguy on May 26, 2014, 09:54:10 PM
Compare the Summit Pt paddock with CCS to that of WERA.  That ought to tell you something.
Title: Re: ccs trial run?
Post by: britx303 on May 26, 2014, 10:14:14 PM
Quote from: roadracer162 on May 26, 2014, 11:01:22 AM
Brit, you have inspired me to get back out on my FZR.
:thumb: I cannot express how well received I or my bike was.i really am in awe,as ive always heard everyone at ccs hates old bikes....but I wouldn't have known that this weekend.
Title: Re: ccs trial run?
Post by: Ramsfan80 on May 26, 2014, 10:44:46 PM
Quote from: britx303 on May 26, 2014, 08:56:47 AM
:thumb: the trial run was awesome!! I was always steered from CCS,but it goes to show I should just do what I feel "I"need to.thank you guys for fitting me in,and I will be back with yall at summit in a month :biggrin: I was surprised at how many people came up to me happy to see an fzr out there. some were guys that used to race one and some were sons of racers that raced on them.very,very cool,and I had an awesome time.thanks again!!!

I'd fit in the category of "sons of guys who used to race one" haha great seeing you out there. Good to see the fzr is still alive. My fiancé couldn't figure out why I was so "in love with that bike" (referring to the old style look and seeing all the brand new 600s she had her choice lol) but hey I'm a sucker for the classics. Good job man can't wait to see you out there in a month! :cheers:
Title: Re: ccs trial run?
Post by: Gino230 on May 29, 2014, 10:22:27 AM
Quote from: SVbadguy on May 26, 2014, 09:54:10 PM
Compare the Summit Pt paddock with CCS to that of WERA.  That ought to tell you something.

Is WERA worse or better? I have kicked around the idea of doing a few WERA rounds but they all involve major traveling for me.
Title: Re: ccs trial run?
Post by: britx303 on May 29, 2014, 04:28:33 PM
worse or better depending what you are looking for.......CCS has by far larger grids,and everyone was very serious and ready to go at all costs(the impression I got). WERA is a little more relaxed and very grassroots,so-to-speak.WERA unfortunately is struggling with participation at the moment. nothing wrong with running in both,as this isn't the most popular sport in the states and we should really support one another,as no one else will.
Title: Re: ccs trial run?
Post by: SVbadguy on May 29, 2014, 06:00:48 PM
Quote from: Gino230 on May 29, 2014, 10:22:27 AM
Is WERA worse or better? I have kicked around the idea of doing a few WERA rounds but they all involve major traveling for me.

There were more people in the paddock for the trackday on the Friday before the WERA weekend.  Maybe of 1/3 of the paddock was used that weekend.  With CCS 100% full and then some.
Title: Re: ccs trial run?
Post by: Ramsfan80 on May 29, 2014, 06:25:50 PM
As a spectator of both and future racer ccs is the place to be... Unfortunately a 15 bike grid is large for wera, at least at summit.
Title: Re: ccs trial run?
Post by: britx303 on May 29, 2014, 06:48:58 PM
you could race with wera though to get comfortable being out in a race pace setting though,with less volume.thats not a bad thing. this past weeknd I was damn near jawdropped when i saw the amount of guys when i was gridding up. racing with less guys starting out really helped me be prepped mentally for that. im not sure how i would have been if i had to do my first race with 30 guys out there gunning for turn 1.but it is what it is....so get out there :thumb:
Title: Re: ccs trial run?
Post by: roadracer162 on May 29, 2014, 08:06:27 PM
I would hate to see WERA go away although I have only been a CCS racer since 2003. I have always hoped to run with and against some other competitors in WERA and AHRMA which are the closest for me.
Title: Re: ccs trial run?
Post by: Ramsfan80 on May 29, 2014, 08:18:51 PM
Quote from: britx303 on May 29, 2014, 06:48:58 PM
you could race with wera though to get comfortable being out in a race pace setting though,with less volume.thats not a bad thing. this past weeknd I was damn near jawdropped when i saw the amount of guys when i was gridding up. racing with less guys starting out really helped me be prepped mentally for that. im not sure how i would have been if i had to do my first race with 30 guys out there gunning for turn 1.but it is what it is....so get out there :thumb:

That's the plan ha. Wera usually has a weekend at summit before ccs so the plan is school and wera next season and ccs the rest of the year. I've been waiting to race for years.  :thumb:
Title: Re: ccs trial run?
Post by: Gino230 on May 29, 2014, 11:09:20 PM
Quote from: SVbadguy on May 29, 2014, 06:00:48 PM
There were more people in the paddock for the trackday on the Friday before the WERA weekend.  Maybe of 1/3 of the paddock was used that weekend.  With CCS 100% full and then some.

Then how come their forum is so much better ??
Title: Re: ccs trial run?
Post by: bruce71198 on May 30, 2014, 11:35:36 AM
Quote from: Gino230 on May 29, 2014, 11:09:20 PM
Then how come their forum is so much better ??
More talk less action
Title: Re: ccs trial run?
Post by: britx303 on May 30, 2014, 04:12:57 PM
Quote from: bruce71198 on May 30, 2014, 11:35:36 AM
More talk less action
unfortunately true. but the forum is entertaining,and passes the time between race weekends,at least for me. it was better with different threads that were ongoing and super-hilarious,with daily updates,but would get outta hand and get locked out/shut down.but yeah,too many armchair racers.still,its a fun forum most of the time,with selected spots to stay only on topic of racing.
Title: Re: ccs trial run?
Post by: catman on June 01, 2014, 07:30:50 PM
I feel your pain.