Question for Super Dave.

[Speedballer347]

Background on my question:  
I rode bikes for two years (88-89) when I was in high school (CBR6, FZR6, GSXR750, etc).  Michelin Hi-Sports and Metzler Comp-K race-tires.  
Anyway, I was a decent rider at the time, but haven't read a moto-magazine, nor even sat on a bike since 1990.

Anyway, the 'big' thing back then was to get the rear-end loose and controllably steer the bike w/ the rear.  I am not talking about backing it in, sideways flat-tracking through a corner, nor lighting up the rear on exit.
...Anytime you needed/wanted to adjust/tighten your line, decreasing radius, etc, you would get the backend loose w/ the throttle and steer it with the rear.   Rear-end might be out 6" or so....not much, just enough.

Skip to 2001...1st bike in over a decade....new 01/gsxr600...traxxion/penske....Racetrack.
This thing feels like a GP bike to me :)

Other than lightly lighting it up on exit, I CANNOT get the backend controllably loose enough to steer it, mid-corner.  
I understand tires, suspension, & chassis have come so far in the last decade, and everything works better and the limits are now much higher.  
  
My question;
is the rear-wheel-steer no longer used as a cornering tool?  Am I wasting my time thinking I have to do this?
I never hear much about it anymore, but it was once the thing everyone strived to master.

Am I now just too old, unfocused, scared, and not 'there' yet? ....or.... is it just beyond the level of an avg rider (me) on the newer bikes/tires.  
Or is this method just old-skool and no longer the correct way?  Have the ultra-high limits of the newer 600's turned this an obsolete tool I should leave in the past, and forget about re-learning?

If this is a stupid question please keep in mind, I hardly ever race (5 & 1/2 times), do not read the moto-magazines, nor watch Speed-Vision, etc.  Needless to say, I am not in the motorcycle loop, so if you could just humor me :)

Your posts on this board have gotten all of my respect and confidence, so I will trust your answer...if you have time 8)

TIA
CCS Great Plains #347

[max@traxxion.com]

I can probably throw a comment in here...

I don't really know but one or two "fast" guys who ride with this style anymore.  We have worked very hard to make bikes have so much grip that they don't spin ever.  Tires are way better and suspension is way better.  Most fast riders don't want the tire to spin when applying the throttle anymore.  Since you can lean a modern bike over so much further, you are only left on a tiny amount of tire.  

Fast riders now concentrate on attaining the most possible midcorner speed.  Entry speed is important, but it is proven over and over again that fast lap times are attained by controlled entries, focus on midcorner speed, to achieve the best possible drive from the corner.

If your wheel is spinning, you aren't going forward.  Tire manufacturers have gone to great lengths to develop tires that will maintain grip in a spin, and have been very successful.  But dropping rubber on the track on laps 1-6 will not help you in laps 7-12.  So spinning is out, grip is "in".

[r1owner]

I can probably throw a comment in here...

So spinning is out, grip is "in".

Maybe this post should be moved to the "Car Craft In-Out" thread. ;)

[Super Dave]

Well, I was racing back in the era that you are talking about....

Yes, there was talk about spinning it up and all.  Like Max said, technology is a bit different now.  Really, we just know more.  Or at least we're applying it correctly.

Now, we understand a better way to change geometry and suspension so that the rear doesn't get so over weighted that it lights up and spins.  The same thing we do today applies to older bikes.  We used modern geometry numbers on the 1969 Honda CB750 race bike that I race, and it is pretty reasonable to ride.  The bike uses a 2.15 x 18 front wheel and a 3in x 18 rear.  I managed to set the vintage lap record at Daytona in March at a 2:06 something.  I was all alone and not pressured.  Might have been able to do a 2:04 or better with some more set up.

Max could apply his magic to an old GSXR750 and give you good results (not that he wants to...).  Go back to your pictures and look at the swingarm slope on the 1988 to 1991 GSXR's.  Now look at it on the new ones.  Think about how that relates to how power gets transmitted through the chain and creates anti squat, how the rear tire doesn't get overloaded, how that all affects how the bike turns.  And how that affects ground clearance.  And how easy it's made it for new riders to go fast.  

[K3 Chris Onwiler]

Stop bothering Dave.  He's mine.  Do you hear me?  He can't make you faster, so just go away!  Only I get to learn from Dave!  I'll make you sorry...

[Protein Filled]

Stop bothering Dave.  He's mine.  Do you hear me?  He can't make you faster, so just go away!  Only I get to learn from Dave!  I'll make you sorry...

God knows, the way you ride, you could keep him busy full time for a few seasons  ;D ;D ;D

[K3 Chris Onwiler]

Edgar, Edgar, Edgar!  If your SV makes 100 horsepower, and you weigh 75 lbs less than I do, then perhaps you should consider a few classes with Super Dave.  Just trying to help, bro!

[Super Dave]

God knows, the way you ride, you could keep him busy full time for a few seasons  ;D ;D ;D

You better watch out...

Those are words that motivate people.