Motorcycle Racing Forum

Racing Discussion => Racing Discussion => Topic started by: sdiver68 on September 03, 2002, 03:45:48 PM

Title: Ban Oxy Fuel in SS?
Post by: sdiver68 on September 03, 2002, 03:45:48 PM
Since SS is supposed to be less machine prep and mechanical ability and by extension $$, and more about the rider, I wondered what people thought about banning the oxygenated fuels in Supersport?

It would still be legal for SB and GP
Title: Re: Ban Oxy Fule in SS?
Post by: Dawn on September 03, 2002, 04:08:55 PM
How would you tell which fuel is being burned at what time?  (A nose is not totally reliable)

Plus, how would you avoid the "this is left over fuel from the superbike, sportsman, GP, etc. race?"


Just a thought

Dawn   ;)
Title: Re: Ban Oxy Fule in SS?
Post by: funksouljon on September 03, 2002, 04:13:19 PM
No
Title: Re: Ban Oxy Fule in SS?
Post by: THE_D.O.C. on September 03, 2002, 04:15:35 PM
it would be no prblem to measure specific gravity at tech. does anyone know if oxy fuel is less/more dense than regular race gas?
Title: Re: Ban Oxy Fule in SS?
Post by: r6_philly on September 03, 2002, 05:01:33 PM
I vote yes, ban oxy fuel in SS, but it probably just another rule where it wouldn't be enforced until someone protest it. They do check airboxes, but what about head work? If you had done extensive work to your topend, and just show up and win SS races in reginal action, would they actually tear it down and see if it is legal?
Title: Re: Ban Oxy Fule in SS?
Post by: sdiver68 on September 03, 2002, 08:17:44 PM
Like DOC said, it would be easy to pull a tube and field test.  

The leftover fuel argument would be SOL, IMHO.  Oh sorry, these are leftover slicks because I didn't have time to change to DOT's....???  ;)

I don't care either way, in fact it would be to my advantage to keep Oxy fuels legal, but its something that was brought up at the track that I thought may be a good idea if everyone did the same.  How many of you like to pay $5 - $15 - $?? a gallon?
Title: Re: Ban Oxy Fuel in SS?
Post by: tcchin on September 05, 2002, 01:10:29 PM
Pump gas is oxygenated with MTBE, ETBE, TAME and other lovely sauces. Are you suggesting that pump gas should be banned too?

The specific gravity of Chevron Supreme, according to the company's MSDS, is .7 to .8. This is a huge range, and it covers everything from VP C 12 at .717 to Special 5 and MR1 at .740. How can a specific gravity test distinguish between Chevron Supreme and an expensive, exotic fuel like Nutec? I don't think we want to start submitting fuel samples at the beginning of the season, do we?

Power gains from fuel are way less significant than those that are available through exhaust upgrades and jetting optimization, and a fuel's ability to improve lap times pales in comparison to that of proper chassis/suspension setup and tire choice. If the outcome of a race comes down to fuel choice, then the riders involved need to consider going pro. For the rest of us humans who race at the club level, fuel choice boils down to bragging rights, mental crutching and aroma therapy.
Title: Re: Ban Oxy Fuel in SS?
Post by: GAMEDIC on September 05, 2002, 02:15:36 PM
QuotePump gas is oxygenated with MTBE, ETBE, TAME and other lovely sauces. Are you suggesting that pump gas should be banned too?

The specific gravity of Chevron Supreme, according to the company's MSDS, is .7 to .8. This is a huge range, and it covers everything from VP C 12 at .717 to Special 5 and MR1 at .740. How can a specific gravity test distinguish between Chevron Supreme and an expensive, exotic fuel like Nutec? I don't think we want to start submitting fuel samples at the beginning of the season, do we?

Power gains from fuel are way less significant than those that are available through exhaust upgrades and jetting optimization, and a fuel's ability to improve lap times pales in comparison to that of proper chassis/suspension setup and tire choice. If the outcome of a race comes down to fuel choice, then the riders involved need to consider going pro. For the rest of us humans who race at the club level, fuel choice boils down to bragging rights, mental crutching and aroma therapy.
Well said! ;D
Title: Re: Ban Oxy Fuel in SS?
Post by: dave333 on September 05, 2002, 02:34:55 PM
Thanks for the reality check, Tim!



btw, did you ever work for ual at exo?
Title: Re: Ban Oxy Fuel in SS?
Post by: tcchin on September 05, 2002, 04:31:20 PM
1) Thanks, GAMEDIC.

2) You're welcome, Dave.  Sorry, I've never worked for United, but I do have a fairly common name.
Title: Re: Ban Oxy Fuel in SS?
Post by: Mongo on September 05, 2002, 04:38:56 PM
I've talked about this to the guys at Prostar (drag racing - they have more experience and research time into the fuel issue than anyone else I know) and the only way they could enforce a rule about no oxy additives was simple.  They now require all competitors to run race fuels.  

What happened is that as somone posted above - the race fuels with oxy spec'd out the same as pump gas.  So the only way to enforce it is to require small batch race fuels without oxy and they test for these specific allowed spec fuels.  This of course wouldn't work at our level because it would then increase the expense to most riders.

Another thing to consider - are fuels really making a difference?  At the AMA pro level where riders are that close I'd say yes.  At the club level where the riders aren't usually anywhere near the capabilites of a stock bike on pump gas I'd say no.  Running race gas for 99.5% of the club racers I know is no different than putting racing stripes on a car or chrome on your 'Busa.  It's all about the show and makes no difference in lap times.
Title: Re: Ban Oxy Fuel in SS?
Post by: cbrracerg on September 05, 2002, 04:49:34 PM
[quote author=Mongo

Another thing to consider - are fuels really making a difference?  At the AMA pro level where riders are that close I'd say yes.  At the club level where the riders aren't usually anywhere near the capabilites of a stock bike on pump gas I'd say no.  Running race gas for 99.5% of the club racers I know is no different than putting racing stripes on a car or chrome on your 'Busa.  It's all about the show and makes no difference in lap times.[/quote]
Right!The difference of up to 4hp and 2ftlbs of torque will make no difference :o
Title: Re: Ban Oxy Fuel in SS?
Post by: sdiver68 on September 06, 2002, 05:25:12 AM
Thanks for the technical input Mongo and Tim,

Based on that new info, I would vote no, since compliance would be too difficult to enforce.

I've seen way too many before/after dyno reports from too many sources to not believe the fuels are giving an extra 5+- HP on a 600, so there is an advantage there.

However, Tim, then why bother having different classes of bikes, since none of us can exploit what we have to its fullest....  Why bother with SS class at all?  Heck, lets just have 6 Heats of Unlimited Grand Prix, and 3 Heats of GTO.

Title: Re: Ban Oxy Fuel in SS?
Post by: TightSqueeze on September 06, 2002, 11:14:35 AM
Just do like the karts do,  and have a hairy buffalo fuel drum.   :P

Walk up with 5gals, dump in top of drum, extract 5 gals from the bottom.  Good luck!
Title: Re: Ban Oxy Fuel in SS?
Post by: tcchin on September 06, 2002, 03:50:20 PM
sdiver68,

I've done fuel testing on a dyno and the difference, as you said, is usually about 4% between the worst performers and the best performers. Again, this is less of a power gain than jetting, exhaust and cam timing will give you. It is certainly less significant on a lap time basis than the difference between fresh tires and shagged tires, yet I don't think anyone wants to start monitoring tire heat cycles in tech. Also, if you're fast enough to have your race results decided by your fuel choice, you'd probably be getting free fuel anyway.

Your idea about combined classes, despite being intentionally controversial and inflammatory, sounds a lot like a Formula 40 or Team Challenge event to me, which again brings me to the bottom line that it's nearly all rider and very little bike. For example, I can still remember back in February of 2001 when Ant Gobert rode around everybody in every class on his R6 at the Streets of Willow. Likewise, the July 2001 Team Challenge at Buttonwillow was won overall (I think) by a team on an R6.

Having six UGP and three GTO races would certainly be cheaper, as I would only need to buy one kind of tire, build one kind of motor and maintain only one chassis. I'd still be just as slow though... And yes, Ant would have gone faster on his R7 than on his R6, so there is still a place in this sport for machine classification, but fuel is not going to make that much difference in a stock bike in a club race.
Title: Re: Ban Oxy Fuel in SS?
Post by: RoadRacerR6 on September 09, 2002, 05:46:20 PM
QuoteRight!The difference of up to 4hp and 2ftlbs of torque will make no difference :o

I use good old available-anywhere pump gas.  I love passing bikes running race gas!  It's so much fun to think about how they paid big $$ so I could pass them!