updated displacement limits?

[Gino230]

I think it's high time to update displacement limits, particularly for twins.

How about Twins up to 999CC in GTU, MWSB, MWGP? Put in a model year restriction to keep out punched out Ducati 848s.

A fully developed 999R (as in $30 grand developed) makes about 140 HP at the rear wheel. Most built 996 / 998 / 999s are somewhere around 125-130 HP. My SS legal 996 makes 112.

Heck, even eliminate the 999 if you want.

This is in line with what the AMA is doing, too.

Also, why not let the Ducati 748 in LWSB and LWGP, and GTL? They have not dominated in Thunderbike as was feared. Especially makes sense since the SV650 is now allowed in Ultra light.
Thoughts?

[roadracer162]

I like the idea if I am riding the 748. Not so good for me on the FZR600. I still can't compete in Thunderbike.

Makes sense to me. Now how to sell it to CCS?

Mark

[spyderchick]

I like the idea if I am riding the 748. Not so good for me on the FZR600. I still can't compete in Thunderbike.

Makes sense to me. Now how to sell it to CCS?

Mark

Write a letter to them. They review the rules each year.

[123user]

I think it's high time to update displacement limits, particularly for twins.

How about Twins up to 999CC in GTU, MWSB, MWGP? Put in a model year restriction to keep out punched out Ducati 848s.

A fully developed 999R (as in $30 grand developed) makes about 140 HP at the rear wheel. Most built 996 / 998 / 999s are somewhere around 125-130 HP. My SS legal 996 makes 112.

Heck, even eliminate the 999 if you want.

This is in line with what the AMA is doing, too.

Also, why not let the Ducati 748 in LWSB and LWGP, and GTL? They have not dominated in Thunderbike as was feared. Especially makes sense since the SV650 is now allowed in Ultra light.
Thoughts?

I still have difficulting in understanding why there is so much frustration with the twins?  Both ducati and buell have developed some pretty neat bikes and both sponsor CCS contingency.  Should we spit in their face by banning the excellent bikes they've built?

I've found that the CCS officials are well aware of the bikes out there and where they fit into the racing classes.

If you think that the rules have made one bike more competetive than another... you should purchase that type of bike.  Changing rules to create fairness only leads to stagnation in the classes and discourages developement by the OEM's 

[Gino230]

I still have difficulting in understanding why there is so much frustration with the twins?  Both ducati and buell have developed some pretty neat bikes and both sponsor CCS contingency.  Should we spit in their face by banning the excellent bikes they've built?

I've found that the CCS officials are well aware of the bikes out there and where they fit into the racing classes.

If you think that the rules have made one bike more competetive than another... you should purchase that type of bike.  Changing rules to create fairness only leads to stagnation in the classes and discourages developement by the OEM's 

I'm not sure what you mean by this.....I'm talking about modifying the existing displacement limits to allow some of the older twins in more classes.

While I agree in theory about buying the most competitive machine, this is CLUB RACING, NOT MOTO GP.....the whole idea behind club racing is that there's something for everyone, even the older bikes and riders.

I'm merely suggesting that the rules be updated to allow some of the older bikes to race in classes where they are competitive.....isn't that what it's all about? 

[123user]

While I agree in theory about buying the most competitive machine, this is CLUB RACING, NOT MOTO GP.....the whole idea behind club racing is that there's something for everyone, even the older bikes and riders.

I'm merely suggesting that the rules be updated to allow some of the older bikes to race in classes where they are competitive.....isn't that what it's all about? 

I don't mean to belittle your opinion, but I think CCS thrives because it doesn't over-classify machinery.

I could build a 130hp/360lb ducati 748... would that be fair in the lightweight classes?  Depends on the rider.  With my fat, slow ass on it, it'd be fine... with Ed Key on it it wouldn't. 

Club racing is not about making class rules fair for poorer people... its is about having fun.  Its easier to have fun if you can recognize that its 90% the riders fault if they lose.

I've been racing a 1000SS for the last few years, and to be honest, I'm just sick of people bitching about fairness.  If you have an older bike... then go ride it without complaining or retire it and buy a new competetive model.

[roadracer162]

I could build a 130hp/360lb ducati 748... would that be fair in the lightweight classes? 

Club racing is not about making class rules fair for poorer people... its is about having fun.  Its easier to have fun if you can recognize that its 90% the riders fault if they lose.

I've been racing a 1000SS for the last few years, and to be honest, I'm just sick of people bitching about fairness.  If you have an older bike... then go ride it without complaining or retire it and buy a new competetive model.

130 out of a Ducati 748 that would be the RS model. Short lived and very expensive that can easily be kep out. 360 pounds? Please build one for me, that things is a beast.

Club racing is all about having some fun, but for some it is a very important stepping stone. For me it is fun and what more fun can we have at the poarty if it is more than just me attending. Grids have been getting smaller. Bring out the okd bikes and the grids may grow again. I for one can't buy the newest fastest thing there is, but I can ride the heck out of the older version and have so much fun with it.

My 1991 FZR600 cost me $5500 to build for the track. My 1989 FZR400 cost another $700. The newest racebike for me 2004 Ducati 800 cost $10K. Yes I could have bought a current class leading SV for less, but I just bought the 800 last year to keep my points lead. 2007 Ultralight Regional Champ was the end result.

Me personally I like to see a bunch of different manufacturers out there competing with different engine layouts. I like to see how the Ducati 800 stack up against the SV.

You mentioned, " If you have an older bike... then go ride it without complaining or retire it and buy a new competetive model". I guess we should have told all the SV riders to give up racing for a year and come back with a more current bike for the class by keeping them out of Ultralight. I race against many SV riders here in Florida in Ultralight. I must say they are faster than the 800 but I do ok. Top speed is about the same even though the 800 has more power. The SV does have the advantage of being more nimble.

In the end I like that competition that the SV and the Duc 800 has going. It has been a lot of fun.

I say 748 in LW GP and LW SB.

Mark

[danch]

I still have difficulting in understanding why there is so much frustration with the twins?

Are you talking about the 'His twin is too fast' frustration, or the 'my twin is too slow' frustration. I've seen complaints both ways this year.

[ahastings]

I still have difficulting in understanding why there is so much frustration with the twins?  Both ducati and buell have developed some pretty neat bikes and both sponsor CCS contingency.  Should we spit in their face by banning the excellent bikes they've built?

Ducati cut off their contingency program for the 2009 season

[123user]

130 out of a Ducati 748 that would be the RS model. Short lived and very expensive that can easily be kep out. 360 pounds? Please build one for me, that things is a beast.

You mentioned, " If you have an older bike... then go ride it without complaining or retire it and buy a new competetive model". I guess we should have told all the SV riders to give up racing for a year and come back with a more current bike for the class by keeping them out of Ultralight. I race against many SV riders here in Florida in Ultralight. I must say they are faster than the 800 but I do ok. Top speed is about the same even though the 800 has more power. The SV does have the advantage of being more nimble.

I say 748 in LW GP and LW SB.

Mark

Yes, it would be pretty expensive to build a lightweight 130hp 748.  I think it would cost about $10000 on top of the purchase of the bike if I did it myself- I could afford that.  Lots of other guys could too!  When I bought my Ducati 1000SS, "everyone" told me that that X-amount of hp was next to impossible, and X-weight was impossible.  Everyone was wrong, my 1000SS weighs 325lbs and makes about 115hp.  So its wishful thinking that there won't be highly developed 748's out there

The SV650 guys complained their way into ULSB.  If the class hadn't been already dying off, I doubt they would have been added.  CCS has given the SV guys ample opportunity to increase the power of their bikes...if someone doesn't want to spend the extra money to build one... thats their problem. 

Are you talking about the 'His twin is too fast' frustration, or the 'my twin is too slow' frustration. I've seen complaints both ways this year.

Exactly... for some reason twins seem to take the blame of poor rider performance-both ways.  Its ridiculous!

The rules don't care about how much money you have to spend... or how poor you are.  In Superbike, its about the potential of the bike... not stock hp.   A well built 748 has the potential to wipe out the entire lightweight field with a good rider.

[roadracer162]

Well, based on what you are saying a 325 lb/115 hp 1000 SS running against a 360 lb/130 hp 748 I thnk is pretty even as far as hp:weight. So go ahead and allow the 748.

The 130 hp 748 is the RS and not very reliable, just ask Chris at MotoCorse. He's got one and he tells me even for him(shop owner) it costs an arm and a leg.

Allow the 748R in LW and it will be a good race. I know the Bimota is much faster with all the right parts.

Mark

[123user]

My 1000ds is the exception... and I'd actually feel a little bad about it if I didn't weigh 250lbs. 

360/130=2.77, 325/115=2.83... Throw a 200lb rider on and the difference becomes noticeable.   Now its 560/130=4.31 & 525/115= 4.56.  Thats a couple of bike lengths on the straight.

Personally, I don't believe in unreliable or "grenade" motors.  Motors are either built properly or their not... they're either maintained properly or they're not.  On a ducati, if you're not lashing valves every 5 hours... your losing HP and playing with fire.  If somebodys racing a modified duc on stock rods and pistons... they're a fool.

I take offense to the idea that somehow the lightweight classes are the dumping grounds for uncompetetive middleweight machinery.  No other classes have seen the skyrocketing costs and hp levels that the lightweight classes have seen over the last 10 years. We've gone from max'd out 80hp Hawks now to Ducati's and Buells approaching 120hp.  Its just pathetic that a TZ250 isn't even considered competetive anymore!

If the consensus is that 748's should be let in lightweight classes... well, so be it.  I can already hear the sore-losers complaining!  In the end it will only keep making racing more expensive. 

[Gino230]

Dear User 123,

Here's what I don't get about your theories:

I'm suggesting that we allow some older, less powerful bikes compete against newer more competitive machines by modifying the rules.

Your response to this is shut up and buy the newer bike.....

But when others make the point that this is club racing and there should be a class for everyone, and that rules have been written that way in the past,

Your response is Well, some people will exploit this by spending big bucks to build one-off machines to dominate the class. This makes racing more expensive if you want to win....

So which is it? Shut up and buy the newest bike (which makes racing more expensive),

OR

It's no fair because someone will build one off bikes that are too fast (which makes racing more expensive).

Seems to me the money wins (or at least gives significant advantages) either way... (as if that's a surpirse to anyone)



P.S. after 10 years of racing Ducatis and never once having an engine failure, I won't even get into your theories on Ducati maintenance.

[123user]

I trying to be consistent here, but maybe I've goofed.  I'm not really worried about the cost explosion (although it is crazy) but I am concerned over the hp increases in the LW classes.

I said either stop complaining OR go buy the new hotness.  (But I guess you're right: Either way the complaining should end)

Someone will always build some crazy bike, people have been exploiting the rules for years.  Adding the 748 just adds another platform to exploit the rules with.  Even if you think that club racing means that there's a class for everybody... that's different than saying there's a class for every bike (clearly this isn't true).  I just can't see how a bike that was a MW only two years ago is somehow a LW now?

I'm absolutely against adding machinery to different classes just because its no longer competetive in the one it originally was in.  This is completely different than an OEM building a better bike that fits in the existing rules or about some mechanical-psycho building the uber-bike that's already within the rules.  To me, adding the 748 is just purposely upping the ante.  Its practically daring me to build a new bike.

I raced a hawk for a few years.  I beat the snot out of it, ran big cams on stock heads, heavy hicomp pistons on stock, unbalanced bottom end... by rights the thing should have blow up a dozen times... but it didn't.  Based on my experience, abusing the thing was ok... but everyone knows that it wasn't. 

That's my feeling on Ducati stuff.  Many people get by on the stock bottom end and only lashing valves... well, never.  But if you want the most from the motor, you're going to have to maintain it religiously.  (I put in 20-30 hrs of maint. per weekend)  My point here is that there are people who are both talented racers and willing to maintain a heavily modified bike... and they'll win...and the complaining will continue.

[roadracer162]

I really don't think anyone was complaining about fairness. The request was made for opinions and I for one gave mine.

The 748 I speak of is the RS model and it does get pulled apart each weekend it is raced-at least so I am told and I believe it. I don't think there could be anymore maintenance than that.  Marc has been gracious enough to allow me to ride his R model and although not as fast, here again I am told it is much more reliable. He does maintain his bike after every weekend.

Don't speak about weight of one rider to another because this is club racing and it is just right back to complaining again about he is lighter than me. I know weight does give an advantage just as big bucks gives advantagfes also. For me I have seen some very fast big guys so I don't believe it is that much of an advantage. There is just as much advantage in better brake components that I can't afford.

Inherrently rules have changed along the way and handicaps implemented to keep the racing close. The Hawk beat out the FZR400 and so the FZR400 became an Ultralight bike. The SV beat out the Hawk and that became an Ultralight bike. Most currently the SV has been beat out by the Ducati1000 and so it is now in the Ultralight class.

Is there a most fair way of classifying bikes? Is there a better way than the current way? maybe we should just go with displacement of the motor and call it fair. If your Ducati 1000 can't beat a GSXR1000 then maybe you should buy a bike that will be competitive-NOT! Club racing isn't necessarily about being fair, but it is about having a friendly competition.

Sadly the TZ250 and RS250 don't have a chance against the newest middle weight stuff. They also race in the Heavyweight F40 where the 748 races in the LW F40.

I currently race the Ducati 800 that has been modified and I believe the SV is a good race. I also race the Ducati 748 and compete against the Bimota of Kevin Mendez and Duc 1000 DS of Chris Sullivan. They are faster than I am but I think it is a good race.

It's a pretty equal race.

Mark

[roadracer162]

Gino- your Karma is lacking.

[Ducmarc]

maybe if you raced more than once a year you would do better  lol. anyway how about changing vintage which no one rides in to vintage twins with like a 10 year limit henrys scraping the class. as far as the evil 748 we have lightwight 40 and tbike . i think there needs to be several classes the lower horsepower bikes can run of course these clases have been polluted by high horsepower large displacement air cooled bikes already. as for my 748 it is almost all rs+ the only r part is the cams which i might change to try and catch kevin.we are around 115hp if i had more r and d money i could pickup another 10 hp. i do a lot of maintance mainly because i enjoy it and also i'm constanty looking for some horsepower.i've bought several blown up 748s and almost everyone of them was lack of maintance. i think the maintance factor keeps most people away from it.capt. you need to have chris build you a 748r motor then you can run with us as far as the 800 ducati i think the limiter is way to low if you could turn up the motor like it should you would kill those sv's even my 900 turns 11'000  yours should turn 12,000 at least. you ready for homestead i've changed somethings we will see if it works

[roadracer162]

I am ready for Homestead. With some Michelin Xbux I should have no excuses. I plan on going out there to learn. That 748 of yours can be intimidating at times but it is a lot of fun to ride. Quick-shifter on the way? I spoke with Larry about it.

As for the 800, it is my fun bike. It is just enough to handle without getting in trouble with too much speed.

Mark

[skiandclimb]

I am in total agreement with Geno and the lot...and yes- I ride a Duc. My 996 is 10 years old, and porrly matched with the other bikes that are allowed to run in the classes I am restricted to.  For my mostly stock 996- I have the most fun competing in Supertwins....there's really no other classes I can enter and be competitive, given the other models allowed in.  HW?  Yup- ass handed to me.  UNL? Yup- ass handed to me.  Thunderbike?  Nope- CCS won't allow me to run.  MW?  Nope- although my Duc's performance is right around that of a newer 600, I am , once again, not allowed in the class.

I agree that the 848's and 1098's shouldn't be given the same "bump down" but for the 916/748/996 bikes- I do believe that the current displacement structure limits our bikes because of "Desmodromic valving" which is smattered as a bad word all over the CCS rule book.  My take- 998's and onwards shouldn't get the bump, as the Testsretta motor is a beast.  The older Desmoquattro's are the ones taking it in the ass.

I understand why (back in the day) the Quattros were limited....they once ruled the track.  However, those days are FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR gone, and have been eclipsed by smaller displacement inlines.  So, I don't see the big deal....I know we are on "outdated" machines, but we love them and own them.  They are much cheaper to race than the new hotness Ducs, and parts no longer cost a fortune.

Anyways- this is like beating a dead horse. Until CCS removes its hatred of all things Desmo- I, and the other Duc riders will be subjegated to obtuse classes.

Ce la vie.

[backMARKr]

Until CCS removes its hatred of all things Desmo- I, and the other Duc riders will be subjegated to obtuse classes.

Ce la vie.

Or buy a newer or more competitive bike.....

[skiandclimb]

Or buy a newer or more competitive bike.....

Button pusher.  LMAO

[Ducmarc]

i'm going to ask henry about a vintage twins class this weekend he might go for it and then we will have a place to our ebay junk

[Gino230]

Well, I'm glad to see that some of us agree. I guess I asked for opinions and that's what we got.

I did email Keivn Elliot with the idea, he promised to bring it up at the next rule making comittee. If anyone else feels the same, I think you should email Kevin. Oh, and by the way, this was all Hudlett's idea, since he has a 748RS that he races in 2 classes. Plus there is a ton of cheap 748s on ebay.

I hate to beat a dead horse, but it seems the rules have always evolved to keep machines running in the classes where they are the most competitive....and especially since I happen to have one I'd like to see it happen. Bigger grid, more competition, more fun!

As for you, DucMarc, you know Chris has shown me the parts manual for the 748RS, most of those parts (including the cases) are throwaways after one weekend, according to Ducati Corse...and I get mad when I have to take my bike to the shop once a season so I don't think I'll be building one of those any time soon.

I did get to ride Chris' 1098R "the beast" at the track day on Father's Day.....let me tell you, if I did have some bucks (ok, alot of bucks), I'd be going for one of those!

Oh and how does that Karma stuff work, anyway?

Mark, I have no excuses this weekend either. I've got new tires on the 1000 and we did a bunch of checks on it at Moto Corse last week. I hadn't ridden it since Daytona in October and I thought it was down on power. Less than 1% leakdown, valves are tight, PC map is intact. 92HP on the Moto Corse Dyno........the 748 / 996 is staying in the trailer, I tore my rotator cuff crashing in the pits at PBIR (I know, get your laughs in now), and I don't have the strength to ride 2 bikes for 2 days.......See you at Homestead!

[Ducmarc]

your kama is in the crapper.  ducati prints that book so chris will spend more money and i'm going to bed see you sat.

[Gino230]

your kama is in the crapper.  ducati prints that book so chris will spend more money

It's working!

[ktd]

I am all for the 996 and eariler ducs racing 600's.  I have seen both on the dyno and they are pretty much in the same class...999 is not in the same class.  I don't know personally about the 998 I have not seen them dyno.

I also like to see the older bikes still able to race but not have to go to vintage.  I think this is a really good idea.

[Woofentino Pugrossi]

996 has 30+ ft lbs of torque over a new 600. Torque is acceleration. Saying a liter twin desmo is in the same class as a 600 is like saying a neon is in the same class as a ACR viper.

[ktd]

or saying my truck with 500FTLBS of torque could take a Neon.  Or my old 97 Buell.  Made 100lbs of Torque after I spent thousands on it.  Couldn't outrun any 600 with 50lbs.  Revs make the difference and are as much of an advantage as any Torque.

Torque is going to help in first gear only so there might be some advantage on the start but as speed increases the advantage will decrease.  Two engines with identical horsepower are going to do identical amounts of work.  Not to mention in this case weight of an out dated bike.  If you think torque is an advantage on curves you should whack the throttle open on a 1098 like the guys do on the I-4's.

If you want to understand how work is done actually read this.  There are advantages and disadvantages to both but is it set equal by gearing.
http://craig.backfire.ca/pages/autos/horsepower

Saying that do I think an 1125 Buell should be racing 600 in AMA.  No.  It has more Horsepower which translates to more work done.  But look at the Aprilla 1000.  It isn't any faster than the 600. 

[Cowboy 6]

996 has 30+ ft lbs of torque over a new 600. Torque is acceleration. Saying a liter twin desmo is in the same class as a 600 is like saying a neon is in the same class as a ACR viper.

And yet a 1200+ Buell with 50 ft lbs more torque than an SV650 is still running Lightweight.....

[Ducmarc]

the 998 is a 999 motor in a 996 chassis which i think is a better chassis than the 999 there are few 996's out there that can whack a decient running 600 . their heavy, slow turning, slow building horsepower and most only make 110 to 120 hp a good 748rs will spank about any 996 silghtly less hp but rev's higher and quicker. ducati knows this that's why the took the stroke out of their motors and run gaint pistons (of course this also allows for big valves and less cam for reliability)i think instead of droping vintage change it to vintage superbike with a ten year 1000cc limit since it seems we all have a 10 yr old superbike collecting dust

[Ducmarc]

make middleweight vintage in lines 600 +1mm twins 750+ 1MM 17 inch rims and slicks then all the fzrs and f2s vs650 and maybe the evil 748 will have a place to play. heavyweight 1000 inlines and 1000 twins that would give the zx7,tl1000 gixr750 a place to play and put them in 2 waves combined or ditch another class that no one shows up to. that would bring more bikes to the track and it's bikes we already have and are connected to.isn't this an old farts debate anyway

[roadracer162]

I would need a +2 on my FZR to keep up with that bad boy 748. No chance of beating it though.

Mark

[Ducmarc]

ok +2 and i have to start with both hands on my helmet of course how you going to ride 2 bikes at once? i'm trying to get us a leg up here

[roadracer162]

ok +2 and i have to start with both hands on my helmet of course how you going to ride 2 bikes at once? i'm trying to get us a leg up here

Back up bike

[Gino230]

996 has 30+ ft lbs of torque over a new 600. Torque is acceleration. Saying a liter twin desmo is in the same class as a 600 is like saying a neon is in the same class as a ACR viper.

Well, my 1000DS makes 65ft / lb of torque, but I don't think anyone who has ever raced one thinks it's competitive with a 600.

This debate could go on forever, but let's get down to brass tacks: On the track, the old 996 is best matched against modern 600s.

[roadracer162]

The problem is the mentality that if you are on a 2001 then it is vintage. Then the only thought comes to mind is that this is club racing. There should be a place to race that vintage bike with someone to race with. I am not asking to be at the front always but I would rather not get lapped. Then there will be the other argument that someone will make that vintage bike light as can be and so much HP that it will run away from the rest of the field. The answer to that is there will always be that bike.

On occasion I race my Ultralight legal Ducati 800 in GT lights and I enjoy it. Will I ever win a race? Probably not, but maybe if it rains I might.

Mark

[skiandclimb]

Will I ever win a race? Probably not, but maybe if it rains I might.

LOL- That's the only way I have won!  I love the rain!  It is the fat-kid equalizer, dammit!!!!

[George_Linhart]

LOL- That's the only way I have won!  I love the rain!  It is the fat-kid equalizer, dammit!!!!

The correct terminology is aerodynamically challenged.

Please get it straight next time.

[roadracer162]

The correct terminology is aerodynamically challenged.

Please get it straight next time.

I thought the egg shape was aerodynamic?

[Ducmarc]

are you saying my 748 is vintage??? i like to think of it as broken in .the fun part is when you beat the latest and greatest on a "vintage" bike. but if we do get lapped then i will admit that it's vintage.of course we need a one word term for the rider also.

[roadracer162]

Marc- I don't think it is vintage, but there are many on here that claim the bike is too old and, "buy a new bike that is competitive" is a phrase that I have heard too often about my FZR.

[Ducmarc]

since it's all in fun and like the other feller said i'm not allowed to make any money in this. the whole build a bike on ebay then go out and win almost gives a fealing of revenge or atleast a feeling of satisfaction that a plug and play guy will never know.

[roadracer162]

This is true Team Manager. Well said and it will be fun to see how far it goes.

[skiandclimb]

The correct terminology is aerodynamically challenged.

Please get it straight next time.

Actually, I like to think of it as being "buoyant" given that it is technically in the wet!