updated displacement limits?

[Gino230]

I think it's high time to update displacement limits, particularly for twins.

How about Twins up to 999CC in GTU, MWSB, MWGP? Put in a model year restriction to keep out punched out Ducati 848s.

A fully developed 999R (as in $30 grand developed) makes about 140 HP at the rear wheel. Most built 996 / 998 / 999s are somewhere around 125-130 HP. My SS legal 996 makes 112.

Heck, even eliminate the 999 if you want.

This is in line with what the AMA is doing, too.

Also, why not let the Ducati 748 in LWSB and LWGP, and GTL? They have not dominated in Thunderbike as was feared. Especially makes sense since the SV650 is now allowed in Ultra light.
Thoughts?

[roadracer162]

I like the idea if I am riding the 748. Not so good for me on the FZR600. I still can't compete in Thunderbike.

Makes sense to me. Now how to sell it to CCS?

Mark

[spyderchick]

I like the idea if I am riding the 748. Not so good for me on the FZR600. I still can't compete in Thunderbike.

Makes sense to me. Now how to sell it to CCS?

Mark

Write a letter to them. They review the rules each year.

[123user]

I think it's high time to update displacement limits, particularly for twins.

How about Twins up to 999CC in GTU, MWSB, MWGP? Put in a model year restriction to keep out punched out Ducati 848s.

A fully developed 999R (as in $30 grand developed) makes about 140 HP at the rear wheel. Most built 996 / 998 / 999s are somewhere around 125-130 HP. My SS legal 996 makes 112.

Heck, even eliminate the 999 if you want.

This is in line with what the AMA is doing, too.

Also, why not let the Ducati 748 in LWSB and LWGP, and GTL? They have not dominated in Thunderbike as was feared. Especially makes sense since the SV650 is now allowed in Ultra light.
Thoughts?

I still have difficulting in understanding why there is so much frustration with the twins?  Both ducati and buell have developed some pretty neat bikes and both sponsor CCS contingency.  Should we spit in their face by banning the excellent bikes they've built?

I've found that the CCS officials are well aware of the bikes out there and where they fit into the racing classes.

If you think that the rules have made one bike more competetive than another... you should purchase that type of bike.  Changing rules to create fairness only leads to stagnation in the classes and discourages developement by the OEM's 

[Gino230]

I still have difficulting in understanding why there is so much frustration with the twins?  Both ducati and buell have developed some pretty neat bikes and both sponsor CCS contingency.  Should we spit in their face by banning the excellent bikes they've built?

I've found that the CCS officials are well aware of the bikes out there and where they fit into the racing classes.

If you think that the rules have made one bike more competetive than another... you should purchase that type of bike.  Changing rules to create fairness only leads to stagnation in the classes and discourages developement by the OEM's 

I'm not sure what you mean by this.....I'm talking about modifying the existing displacement limits to allow some of the older twins in more classes.

While I agree in theory about buying the most competitive machine, this is CLUB RACING, NOT MOTO GP.....the whole idea behind club racing is that there's something for everyone, even the older bikes and riders.

I'm merely suggesting that the rules be updated to allow some of the older bikes to race in classes where they are competitive.....isn't that what it's all about? 

[123user]

While I agree in theory about buying the most competitive machine, this is CLUB RACING, NOT MOTO GP.....the whole idea behind club racing is that there's something for everyone, even the older bikes and riders.

I'm merely suggesting that the rules be updated to allow some of the older bikes to race in classes where they are competitive.....isn't that what it's all about? 

I don't mean to belittle your opinion, but I think CCS thrives because it doesn't over-classify machinery.

I could build a 130hp/360lb ducati 748... would that be fair in the lightweight classes?  Depends on the rider.  With my fat, slow ass on it, it'd be fine... with Ed Key on it it wouldn't. 

Club racing is not about making class rules fair for poorer people... its is about having fun.  Its easier to have fun if you can recognize that its 90% the riders fault if they lose.

I've been racing a 1000SS for the last few years, and to be honest, I'm just sick of people bitching about fairness.  If you have an older bike... then go ride it without complaining or retire it and buy a new competetive model.

[roadracer162]

I could build a 130hp/360lb ducati 748... would that be fair in the lightweight classes? 

Club racing is not about making class rules fair for poorer people... its is about having fun.  Its easier to have fun if you can recognize that its 90% the riders fault if they lose.

I've been racing a 1000SS for the last few years, and to be honest, I'm just sick of people bitching about fairness.  If you have an older bike... then go ride it without complaining or retire it and buy a new competetive model.

130 out of a Ducati 748 that would be the RS model. Short lived and very expensive that can easily be kep out. 360 pounds? Please build one for me, that things is a beast.

Club racing is all about having some fun, but for some it is a very important stepping stone. For me it is fun and what more fun can we have at the poarty if it is more than just me attending. Grids have been getting smaller. Bring out the okd bikes and the grids may grow again. I for one can't buy the newest fastest thing there is, but I can ride the heck out of the older version and have so much fun with it.

My 1991 FZR600 cost me $5500 to build for the track. My 1989 FZR400 cost another $700. The newest racebike for me 2004 Ducati 800 cost $10K. Yes I could have bought a current class leading SV for less, but I just bought the 800 last year to keep my points lead. 2007 Ultralight Regional Champ was the end result.

Me personally I like to see a bunch of different manufacturers out there competing with different engine layouts. I like to see how the Ducati 800 stack up against the SV.

You mentioned, " If you have an older bike... then go ride it without complaining or retire it and buy a new competetive model". I guess we should have told all the SV riders to give up racing for a year and come back with a more current bike for the class by keeping them out of Ultralight. I race against many SV riders here in Florida in Ultralight. I must say they are faster than the 800 but I do ok. Top speed is about the same even though the 800 has more power. The SV does have the advantage of being more nimble.

In the end I like that competition that the SV and the Duc 800 has going. It has been a lot of fun.

I say 748 in LW GP and LW SB.

Mark

[danch]

I still have difficulting in understanding why there is so much frustration with the twins?

Are you talking about the 'His twin is too fast' frustration, or the 'my twin is too slow' frustration. I've seen complaints both ways this year.

[ahastings]

I still have difficulting in understanding why there is so much frustration with the twins?  Both ducati and buell have developed some pretty neat bikes and both sponsor CCS contingency.  Should we spit in their face by banning the excellent bikes they've built?

Ducati cut off their contingency program for the 2009 season

[123user]

130 out of a Ducati 748 that would be the RS model. Short lived and very expensive that can easily be kep out. 360 pounds? Please build one for me, that things is a beast.

You mentioned, " If you have an older bike... then go ride it without complaining or retire it and buy a new competetive model". I guess we should have told all the SV riders to give up racing for a year and come back with a more current bike for the class by keeping them out of Ultralight. I race against many SV riders here in Florida in Ultralight. I must say they are faster than the 800 but I do ok. Top speed is about the same even though the 800 has more power. The SV does have the advantage of being more nimble.

I say 748 in LW GP and LW SB.

Mark

Yes, it would be pretty expensive to build a lightweight 130hp 748.  I think it would cost about $10000 on top of the purchase of the bike if I did it myself- I could afford that.  Lots of other guys could too!  When I bought my Ducati 1000SS, "everyone" told me that that X-amount of hp was next to impossible, and X-weight was impossible.  Everyone was wrong, my 1000SS weighs 325lbs and makes about 115hp.  So its wishful thinking that there won't be highly developed 748's out there

The SV650 guys complained their way into ULSB.  If the class hadn't been already dying off, I doubt they would have been added.  CCS has given the SV guys ample opportunity to increase the power of their bikes...if someone doesn't want to spend the extra money to build one... thats their problem. 

Are you talking about the 'His twin is too fast' frustration, or the 'my twin is too slow' frustration. I've seen complaints both ways this year.

Exactly... for some reason twins seem to take the blame of poor rider performance-both ways.  Its ridiculous!

The rules don't care about how much money you have to spend... or how poor you are.  In Superbike, its about the potential of the bike... not stock hp.   A well built 748 has the potential to wipe out the entire lightweight field with a good rider.

[roadracer162]

Well, based on what you are saying a 325 lb/115 hp 1000 SS running against a 360 lb/130 hp 748 I thnk is pretty even as far as hp:weight. So go ahead and allow the 748.

The 130 hp 748 is the RS and not very reliable, just ask Chris at MotoCorse. He's got one and he tells me even for him(shop owner) it costs an arm and a leg.

Allow the 748R in LW and it will be a good race. I know the Bimota is much faster with all the right parts.

Mark

[123user]

My 1000ds is the exception... and I'd actually feel a little bad about it if I didn't weigh 250lbs. 

360/130=2.77, 325/115=2.83... Throw a 200lb rider on and the difference becomes noticeable.   Now its 560/130=4.31 & 525/115= 4.56.  Thats a couple of bike lengths on the straight.

Personally, I don't believe in unreliable or "grenade" motors.  Motors are either built properly or their not... they're either maintained properly or they're not.  On a ducati, if you're not lashing valves every 5 hours... your losing HP and playing with fire.  If somebodys racing a modified duc on stock rods and pistons... they're a fool.

I take offense to the idea that somehow the lightweight classes are the dumping grounds for uncompetetive middleweight machinery.  No other classes have seen the skyrocketing costs and hp levels that the lightweight classes have seen over the last 10 years. We've gone from max'd out 80hp Hawks now to Ducati's and Buells approaching 120hp.  Its just pathetic that a TZ250 isn't even considered competetive anymore!

If the consensus is that 748's should be let in lightweight classes... well, so be it.  I can already hear the sore-losers complaining!  In the end it will only keep making racing more expensive.