CCS Southeast

Started by NextLevelMotorsports, October 20, 2010, 08:02:40 PM

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NextLevelMotorsports

So I'm switching to run CCS' southeastern schedule next year.  Looking at the schedule, it looks kinda like an afterthought of southern Mid-Atlantic rounds and northern FL rounds.  Guess I'll have to pick up Road Atl and Barber with WERA. 

I know that practices vary between the different CCS affiliates; who's the southeastern affiliate?  Is there anyone who only runs that schedule?
Southeast Conti Tire Guy
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MELK-MAN

i ran the SE series about 3 years now.. we had been going to Barber, but it is crazy expensive to rent and went to Roebling road this season instead. Not a bad trade off, RRR is nice. CCS texas runs the series. FL is run by HD. RA has never been on the schedule. Daytona, CMP, JGP,RRR,VIR.
2012 FL region & 2014 South East overall champion
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roadracer162

I may join you guys for a few rounds just for something different.
Mark Tenn
CCS Ex #22
Mark Tenn Motorsports, Michelin tire guy in Florida.

f3racer

i might be moving from great plains to either southeast or florida region. i will be in southeast ga and its the same distance from there to miami as it is to vir.
Will
Former CCS MW Novice #81, WERA Novice #81
AHRMA Heavyweight SBK #81, DD's Racing Endurance Team #773
2020 Tuono Factory, 2000 RC51, 1980 CB750/823

JimCohrs

You will love SE GA.  I live just north of ATL - we have VIR (5 hrs), Barber (2hrs), CMP (3hrs), Roebling (4hrs), Road Atlanta (30min), Jennings (4hrs), Tally (2hrs)  Living in SE GA you may be able to run both the SE and FL events.  We had a fun year this year.  Good luck in your move!

Jim
#54
600's
Jim Cohrs
Expert #5
Yamaha R6's
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NextLevelMotorsports

I'm going cuz its impossible to race and vend at the same time.  One of my employees races too, so he's running the mid central wera rounds and I'm running CCS, that way there's always somebody under the tent to change tires and what not.

I'm looking forward to actually running slicks and brembo master cylinders in superstock.  ccs superstock rules are way more liberal.  To compete for an overall #1 plate, will I need a second bike?  I saw that sean cassel won the yellow se #1 this year, I'd like to get after it myself, but there's no point if I'm going to need something besides my 600.
Southeast Conti Tire Guy
Triple XXX Race Fuel

NextLevelMotorsports

and which VIR layout does ccs run?  is it different at different events?
Southeast Conti Tire Guy
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Gixxerblade

They run the North Course at every event.

GSXR RACER MIKE

#8
Quote from: NextLevelMotorsports on October 21, 2010, 04:28:05 PMTo compete for an overall #1 plate, will I need a second bike?  I saw that sean cassel won the yellow se #1 this year, I'd like to get after it myself, but there's no point if I'm going to need something besides my 600.
Because of some flaws in the way the Top 10 championship is set-up it's absolutely imperative you get the highest Performance Index (P/I) you can possibly achieve in EVERY race you run. If your not familiar with CCS's P/I calculation here it is:
_____________________________

[(T-A)/T]*1000 = performance index

T = the total number of people in your race (including yourself)
A = the total number of people that finished ahead of you

If you don't multiple by 1000 you get a percentage number, for example .75, multiply that by the points for your finish and you can see the actual points you earned.
_____________________________

If you consistently finish 5th in all your races you would get 21 points (2010 season) for each of those finishes - the flaw here is with the Performance index being calculated against your points. The way the current Performance Index is set-up it only takes into account the number of riders in the race, not the actual competition you encountered. So if a race has 50 entries, and there's 4 blazingly fast guys in that race, there's a big chance a huge gap will form between 4th and 5th place by the end of the race. The end result would be 21 points for the 5th place rider multiplied by their P/I of 92% which gives them an actual points of 19.32 (but at no point was that rider fighting for the lead). At the opposite extreme is a race that has only 5 riders, but in this example every one of them fights tooth and nail the entire race constantly fighting for 1st place. In this case the 5th place rider gets 21 points, but unfortunately they get royally screwed by their P/I calculation of 20% which leaves them with only 4.2 points for their hard work.

This is why it's crucial if your going for a Top 10 plate (and your a consistent Top 10 finisher or better) to only run races that have alot of entries in them, or low entry races that you know you can either win or at worst get no lower than 3rd place. The unfortunate thing is that ALL the Performance Indexes you achieve thruout the entire season are ALL averaged together to come up with 1 number which represented your AVERAGE PERFORMANCE INDEX. This is huge because that means that even the races that you won and had a perfect P/I will get dragged down by all the races that you had lower P/I's. Not only does a bad finish not pay out points, it drags down all the points you all ready earned in other races! This Championship points system isn't just about running a ton of classes, it's about getting the best possible finishes you can get in EVERY race you run.

If your planning on running a 600 for the season the key will be selecting the correct classes based on your ability to finish well at each event. If your confident you can beat the fast guys on the 750's & 1000's on certain tracks, then you should take advantage of that and run the Heavy Weight & Unlimited races at those events. But if your going to the fast tracks and know your going to get smoked by even the mid pack guys on the 1000's then don't even think about running the HW & UL classes at those events because your average P/I will get destroyed and hurt the points you already had.

Hope that helps - Good luck!  :thumb:
Smites are a cowards way of feeling brave!   :jerkoff:
Mike Williams - 2 GSXR 750's
Former MW Region Expert #58
Racing exclusively with CCS since '96
MODERATOR

GSXR RACER MIKE

#9
Here's some examples of actual points paid after Performance Index is applied:

5 riders in a race
2nd = 24
3rd = 15.6
4th = 9.2
5th = 4.2

10 riders in a race
2nd = 27
3rd = 20.8
4th = 16.1
5th = 12.6
6th = 9.5
7th = 7.2
8th = 5.1
9th = 3.2
10th = 1.5

25 riders in a race
2nd = 28.8
3rd = 23.92
4th = 20.24
5th = 17.64
6th = 15.2
7th = 13.68
8th = 12.24
9th = 10.88
10th = 9.6
15th = 4.4
20th = 1.2

50 riders in a race
2nd = 29.4
3rd = 24.96
4th = 21.62
5th = 19.32
6th = 17.1
7th = 15.84
8th = 14.62
9th = 13.44
10th = 12.3
15th = 7.2
20th = 3.1

If you ran 10 races at an event, averaged 25 points per race for a total of 250 points, and had a 90% average Performance Index, your actual earned points would be 225. Now if you took that same example, but had crashed in one of those races (a 10 rider race) and ended up finishing 10th, your average P/I would get dragged down to 82% for ALL your points earned that weekend. That means your actual points after the P/I calculation would only be 196.8 due to that 1 bad result, if you hadn't run that 1 race at all your adjusted overall points would have been 202.5 - so with P/I you actually get punished for racing and not finishing well. Before P/I was used to calculated actual points you would have left that event with 240 points because that 1 bad finish wouldn't have counted AGAINST YOU like it does when factoring in your P/I - you would have still received 15 points for 10th place.

That in my eyes is a major flaw in the way the Championship system is currently set up, I don't think that punishing racers for actually racing is a positive thing. A more reasonable way for calculating the points using P/I would be by doing it only for each individual race, this way it doesn't take away points you already earned in other races. If that were the case then the 10th place finish I gave in the previous example would actually have a positive result with 1.5 points being awarded and an event total of 226.5 points (instead of 196.8 points when calculating P/I like it is currently).
Smites are a cowards way of feeling brave!   :jerkoff:
Mike Williams - 2 GSXR 750's
Former MW Region Expert #58
Racing exclusively with CCS since '96
MODERATOR

MELK-MAN

do you need more than 1 bike (600) to compete for a #1 plate? No.. but you need to be fairly fast and consistant, and make all the rounds. AND.. enter a CRAP load of races. 
2012 FL region & 2014 South East overall champion
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Gixxerblade

…and don't crash. That royally screwed me this year with all those DNF's. 4 crashes turned into 6 or 7 DNF's. :(

MELK-MAN

Quote from: Gixxerblade on October 25, 2010, 09:01:00 PM
...and don't crash. That royally screwed me this year with all those DNF's. 4 crashes turned into 6 or 7 DNF's. :(

figured the "consistant" thing kinda covered that but you are correct.. LOL..
2012 FL region & 2014 South East overall champion
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twilkinson3

Hey GSXR - might want to submit that as a thought for a rule change...at least to me what you said makes sense

Gixxerblade

Quote from: twilkinson3 on October 26, 2010, 10:07:32 AM
Hey GSXR - might want to submit that as a thought for a rule change...at least to me what you said makes sense
works for me!

MELK-MAN

#15
some things i don't like about the way the champinship is run, is the double points at the end. You can have riders show up, run lots of races and close the gap REAL fast. Yes, you do need to be fairly fast and consistant to make it work, but it just turns into a "who can spend more money" deal way to often. it is the way it is, and im hardly the fastest rider out there so im not barking up that tree, but it does blow when you attend every race in a series, do more races than most, but still loose out when riders show up (faster than you or otherwise) but enter 14 races on a double point weekend. YOu literally only have to do about 1/2 the weekends in a series with that approach if you can win lots of races. there should be more incentive to make all the rounds, vs. being able to smoke the field at the end with a marathon run of 14 races earning a huge pile of points.

Also, Mike touched on the class PI affecting your overall PI. CCS may want to look into being able to "throw out" your lowest class PI, have your "top 5 class performance indexes" count to the overall, or something like that.
When chasing a top # plate, riders will not do some races they might like to (like unlimited GP/SHootout) at your favorite track as there is the possiblilty of finishing mid pack or worse. that PI gets factored in just as heavily as the class PI of your other events you do all year.

In NO way am i trying to take away from what other racers have done this year or in years past, it was all within the rules. The couple of riders that may take this wrong i am good friends with and know im not a cry baby. I do like discussion, and if there is a "better way" of doing things ? It is a bit tough to swallow seeing the rules taken advantage of at years end after a FULL SEASON of work has been paid for and ran.. only to see it slip away. I mean the MA rider had a 900 pi, with a big gap for the #1 plate there, only to have it slip away. Without another bike, he had no way to even compete in other classes (lt wt bike in a 600 or 1000 class just ain't gonna cut it at VIR).. And saying a lt wt bike shouldn't have a #1 plate is b.s. He did all the rounds, scored better than everyone up to then in his region, etc. He deserved it as much as anyone else.

I propose do AWAY with double points at the final round, and/or limit the # of classes that count toward an overall championship # plate. You could race as many classes as you want for tire money, contingency, class championship, but only a certain number of classes can count to the OVERALL. Especially in these tighter economic times.
2012 FL region & 2014 South East overall champion
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NextLevelMotorsports

Hmmm..

Thats amazingly complicated.  And here I thought it was whoever earned the most points got the plate.  That PI thing is a little funky.  Whats the point?  What not just use the sum total of points?

If I was racing in WERA I would be thinking championships, but alot of my better tracks aren't on the CCS schedule.  I've never ran Daytona or VIR, not real fond of Roebling, I like CMP but I've only been there 1x.  And there's no way I'm going to beat you FL boys at Jennings.   But I'll get over it and hopefully be able to put down some decent laps and get on the box.

Guess I'll just enter a ton of races and let the cards fall where they may.
Southeast Conti Tire Guy
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GSXR RACER MIKE

#17
The P/I calculation was an attempt to stop people from 'buying' a Top 10 plate by entering a bunch of classes throughout the year or for those who weren't front runners getting Top 10 plates by simply showing up to every event.

I'm a great example of why the P/I was added, 2/3rds of the way thru the 2003 season I was looking at a #5 plate in the overall championship in 3 separate regions- yet I was always finishing at the back of the Experts. By doing nothing more than going to every event in the Midwest, Great Plains, & former Great Lakes regions, and running the same 4 classes at all those events, I was leading 9 of the 12 class championships I was following. Had I continued doing what I was doing I most likely would have won all 12 championships (4 classes in 3 regions) and possibly received a #4 or #3 plate - If I had been entering 6 classes all season instead of 4, I probably would have been looking at a #1 plate due to my consistency (even though I was finishing at the back of the pack).

There were numerous racers who felt I was wrong for doing this, but I didn't feel that I deserved the class championships or the Top 10 plate so I intentionally didn't race the last 3 events of that season so everyone else could catch up and take over the 9 points championships I was leading and work my way out of the Top 10 championship as well. I was successful in achieving my goal, but barely in some classes because I was so far ahead, I also was barely outside of a Top 10 plate as well. Back then the points were higher for a win (about twice what they are now) and still paid pretty good for 10th or 15th. My leading all those championships wasn't my goal, I was just racing to have some fun. But because I was so consistent (and followed the same 4 classes all season) I ended up leading because the faster racers in those classes either didn't go to every event or they ended up crashing and missing out on points.

Adding the P/I calculation was supposed to help out the faster racers by rewarding them heavily for a good finish to offset any crashes or event(s) they couldn't participate in. Unfortunately the way the P/I calculation was set-up it ended up backfiring in achieving the desired result because (as I described before) it actually takes away points you've already earned in previous races. I personally don't like this type of P/I calculation because it's not based on actual competition you encountered during your race, it's purely about the number of racers in the race. BUT....If something like this needs to be used to try and keep the fastest racers leading the points then I think the P/I calculation should be applied to each individual race you run and not be an average that drags down your good finishes - that would be far more accurate in keeping the fast guys leading the points championships.  :thumb:
Smites are a cowards way of feeling brave!   :jerkoff:
Mike Williams - 2 GSXR 750's
Former MW Region Expert #58
Racing exclusively with CCS since '96
MODERATOR

Gixxerblade


weggieman

Why is any performance index needed? Why not use a straight points  awarding system like most orgs do? 

Pretty simple system and it works well.

apriliaman

I'm in 5 lightweight races a weekend and they all count for overall points.The most in a race usally gt lights is 13-18,other ones usally 5-9.I go to every round and finish all the races.Ive been a top ten plate in 2 regions since 2006.I dont win many races.Sometimes i got 5th out of 5 bikes and dont get much points there.In mid atlantic I got 4th overall from my index.If it was just points,like 5 years ago I would have been #1!!!!!!
Winner of at least 50 CCS Lightweight Regional Championships
3 National Championships
Top 10 plate holder since 2006

SVbadguy

I think not counting the class with the lowest PI would be a good thing.  A fews years back I did a single ultralight race on my DR650 just for the fun it.  Of course I finished last of all and that low PI had a major effect on my overall points.  I believe it amounted to a difference of two positions in the final overall points.
Mid-Atlantic Region 
MARRC Exec Committee at-large & Radio Committee Chair

GSXR RACER MIKE

#22
Quote from: SVbadguy on October 26, 2010, 08:37:31 PM
I think not counting the class with the lowest PI would be a good thing.  A fews years back I did a single ultralight race on my DR650 just for the fun it.  Of course I finished last of all and that low PI had a major effect on my overall points.  I believe it amounted to a difference of two positions in the final overall points.

The way I described using P/I on each individual class you race would eliminate that problem, no matter how many bad finishes you have in a season it wouldn't count AGAINST you in the overall Top 10 Championship. This would allow people to run classes they may even know ahead of time they wouldn't do good in but just wanted to run because it's at their favorite track or they just wanted extra seat time on a different bike for example. I personally think it would also encourage people to run more classes because they wouldn't be risking damage to the points they already earned, even if you didn't score any points in those extra classes it wouldn't hurt your overall points - a win / win situation for racers and CCS.
Smites are a cowards way of feeling brave!   :jerkoff:
Mike Williams - 2 GSXR 750's
Former MW Region Expert #58
Racing exclusively with CCS since '96
MODERATOR

f3racer

Quote from: JimCohrs on October 21, 2010, 09:17:19 AM
You will love SE GA.  I live just north of ATL - we have VIR (5 hrs), Barber (2hrs), CMP (3hrs), Roebling (4hrs), Road Atlanta (30min), Jennings (4hrs), Tally (2hrs)  Living in SE GA you may be able to run both the SE and FL events.  We had a fun year this year.  Good luck in your move!

Jim
#54
600's

thanks. i actually am from florida and lived in Savannah area for around 8 yrs. so it will be like being home again.
Will
Former CCS MW Novice #81, WERA Novice #81
AHRMA Heavyweight SBK #81, DD's Racing Endurance Team #773
2020 Tuono Factory, 2000 RC51, 1980 CB750/823

MELK-MAN

#24
Quote from: weggieman on October 26, 2010, 02:00:00 PM
Why is any performance index needed? Why not use a straight points  awarding system like most orgs do? 

Pretty simple system and it works well.


as Mike stated, it was an attempt to keep someone from just getting a #1 plate or class championship by just "attending" and finishing, even if nowhere near the front.

I agree Mike, it hasn't exactly had the desired affect but was an attempt at least. A BIGGER problem in my opinion is the end of the season double point round. Racing all year could have lead to one or 2 riders being very close (but they only do a few events per weekend) only to have someone decide to show up and run every race possible..Or, one of the riders sneak in an extra race. I don't see that as much pf a difference from the original point system when there was no PI calculations to adjust total points. A slow rider finishing in the back has no chance with the PI in place (as a performance index of 200 will not get you a championship) but those are typically not the riders chasing championships . Anything can happen, and there is NO PERFECT method (except for one that has me winning a #1 plate..LOL!)

I have had discussions with some pretty smart people that have "been around" and a couple ideas may even things out.. 1) no double points at final round  2) limit the number of classes that can count for the overall championship.  3) perhaps be able to throw out the performance index in 1 class allowing a rider to race an event at a favorite track that he normally would not enter.
ANOTHER idea, would possibly be not allow points to count toward the overall championship of classes you did not run at say, 80% of the years events.. In other words, you can't borrow a wee bike to gather up double points when you raced 600's all year.

Riders should be rewarded for making every round even if they are not front runners, that is how it is in ANY series of racing be it AMA, MOtoGP, WSB, etc. Riders should have a chance to go head to head, and if one crashes or has DNF'S or can't make rounds, they can't win class championships. Consitancy and making the commitment to attend a SERIES (not a few rounds) is part of securing a class championship or two (or 29).. If a rider wins a championship, no matter if they won a race at all they should be PROUD, not ashamed.. i
2012 FL region & 2014 South East overall champion
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stickboy274

I say, race what you want to race. Beat as many people as you can. See where it leaves you. I don't want to worry about doing higher math to figure out my points.
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Ducmarc

There seems to be a mad dash in the closing races of the year to win the number one plate.Making everyone with a chance race evey race they can changing the outcome of classes they might never run in any other time. Is that what you mean Greg?

Greeny

maybe a good, EASY stipulation to add to the performance index rating is that you need to finish the race for your position to be "counted".  this way, you don't have to worry about entering too many races that could lead to mechanical failures, crashing, or getting taken out by another rider. 

either way, i say just enter the races you want and let the cards fall as they may

f3racer

well it's official. i report to ft stewart in march.  20 minutes south of roebling, 3 hrs from daytona, 3 hrs from jennings
Will
Former CCS MW Novice #81, WERA Novice #81
AHRMA Heavyweight SBK #81, DD's Racing Endurance Team #773
2020 Tuono Factory, 2000 RC51, 1980 CB750/823

MELK-MAN

Quote from: Ducmarc on November 25, 2010, 08:57:19 PM
There seems to be a mad dash in the closing races of the year to win the number one plate.Making everyone with a chance race evey race they can changing the outcome of classes they might never run in any other time. Is that what you mean Greg?

Yes.. to some degree.
2012 FL region & 2014 South East overall champion
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