Number One (1) Plate

Started by rotoboge, December 08, 2004, 05:42:16 AM

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rotoboge

Can someone explain how CCS came around to issueing the number 1 plate, to the person that accumulates the most points? Seems to me, if I were not the fastest in the class/group, it would be a bit of an embarrasment to stick that number on the bike.

PJ721

#1
overall performance for the year based on each one of your finishes you earn points...you dont have to win every race or be the fastest to earn the #1 plate....Rossi, Miladin, Hayden, Duhammel didnt win every race...or were the fastest at every track...but they each won the championship (aka #1 plate) based on points for their class...
Paul Castiglia
CCS - #524 - SV650

Life is short, Break the rules, Forgive quickly, Laugh uncontrollably...
And never regret anything that made you smile....

L8brake731

I feel your pain... As the last post said, it's based on your performance "overall" in the classes run. As racers, we do recognise what "perfomance index" is ALL about. Lets us know how well we race, how well we FINISH the race.
Seems to me, to earn a #1 Plate it would be that your performance index numbers should reflect more than 700 to represent an earnest attempt at overall #1. Just my opinion.
The standings are in black and white, just like speed limits on Fwys and taxes, we just have to deal with it. Just my opinion.  
BTW- Congratulations Matt!   ;D
S. Fukiage
CCS/ASRA  #731

Decreasing_Dave

QuoteBTW- Congratulations Matt!   ;D

That's not sour grapes is it Steve??

I know how you feel though, the one who got the amature class last year had a performance index of like 400 something.  Good guy, I'm not taking anything away from him but my index was in the 9s and I was like 4th or something.  :-/

For the record, I think I had the highest index of the top ten, I just didn't run enough races....Oh well.

Dave

Super Dave

QuoteCan someone explain how CCS came around to issueing the number 1 plate, to the person that accumulates the most points? Seems to me, if I were not the fastest in the class/group, it would be a bit of an embarrasment to stick that number on the bike.

I think the number plate idea came about in like 1990...first issued number one plates in 1991 as a result.

Anyway, in 1991, in the Midwest, we had a guy running around with the number one plate...back in like tenth place.

Track costs were increasing, liability costs were increasing, so to increase entries per rider, I believe it was at that time CCS started tallying points toward a number one plate.

So, if you can score enough points in enough classes, you get the number one plate.

Yeah, it can be goofy.  In 1993, I went out to buy my number one plate...I had double the number of points compared to the guy that was in second place.  Some riders have went out and completed a few laps of a race to get the points toward their championship.  Some riders have fought very hard for their plates.

It's a hard one.

I'd like to see a program where only so many races a weekend count toward an over all championship.  That might get more riders to enter the number of required races for a legitimate opportunity to win the championship, rather than it being a program where you have to cough up entry and tire money for nine or more classes.

That's my opinion.
Super Dave

cardzilla

I agree with Dave.  Rarely is the fastest guy in a region donning the #1 plate.  No offense to those out there, this isn't to say they're not fast, just not the FASTEST.  A lot has to do with the very fast guys concentrating on a few classes and probably national events.  I think CCS needs to have a minimum performance index, minimum point clause for the #1 plate.  The former prevents a big $ #1, the latter a rocket who only races 3 events.  Then combine the two mathmatically, say 50/50 and crown a #1.
Of course that said a lot of people wouldn't necessarily change their number anyway, myself included... as well as Rossi.  At least we have one thing in common  ;)
Larry Dodson
CCS # 22
2004 Yamaha R1 Superbike

stumpy

 As a #1 plater I also think there should be a better way to do it. I hate to see people competing for a 1 plate with 3 bikes running all the races and not finishing them, sorry they gave the plate a bad name. I did it on ONE bike, Didn't run all the races and even skipped the Barber round, As far as buying the 1 plate, I ran 2 more races a weekend than last year but did all the rounds in MW, I figure if I was gonna drive at least 6hrs I was gonna get my $'s worth. PLUS next year I get all my entries free at BHF SO I paid an extra 720 over the year,  so I guess it's a investment ;D So anybody that thinks its easy I say try it, Betcha can't do it on ONE bike!! :P :D :) ;D :-* 8)Stumpy
Greg "Stumpy" Steltenpohl
www.teamstumpyracing.com

Super Dave

I did.   ;D

It really depends upon the local competition, and what one needs to do.

Greg, you did well, and there wasn't anyone out there with two bikes really thinking about making a run that was properly competitive.

Now, I will say this.

With the "race" to the number one plate being strictly an all the points you can get program, there isn't the luster among racers and industry sponsors that some people think.

It is a way cool thing to work for.  But how it turns out in the end for each guy is different in end.

Stump did a good job.
Super Dave

StumpysWife

QuoteI did.   ;D

With the "race" to the number one plate being strictly an all the points you can get program, there isn't the luster among racers and industry sponsors that some people think.

It is a way cool thing to work for.  But how it turns out in the end for each guy is different in end.


Exactly.  Some people go for the #1 to validate their program.  We wanted our program to validate the #1.  Does that make sense?  

As for no real competition.  That's not quite true.  He had competetion.  He had to ride hard to the very end.  It wasn't handed to him.  There was competition on two bikes...he didn't stay healthy. Stumpy did.    

"Buying" it? I don't think so--you can't buy good old luck. Like I said, nothing was won until the day was done in October at Gingerman--he had to ride good all day--and it wasn't easy that day for some reason.    

Stumpy must have got a good deal on his #1.  He didn't start entering 9 races at tracks other than Blackhawk until June.   ;D

If you want the #1, besides the budget, you'll need physical and mental ability, a good team surrounding you, reliable equipment and luck.  Please don't simplify it.  

No, the #1 won't get you sponsors or luster but a good program and a #1 will.

It was definitely an investment.


Heather

LMsports

Rob Oliva
Lithium Motorsports, Inc.
Suspension Solutions
712-546-7747
www.lithiummotorsports.net

mdr14

Stumpy, you don't suck on the race track ;D

Congrats on the #1 plate.

I hope you go even faster in 2005!!
Matt Drucker
MD Racing
www.mdracingstp.com

Super Dave

Ok, now hear me out.

Stumpy did well.

No competition?  Yes, there was competition.

However, the room for error in compiling points over many races over many weekends...that "reduces" the competition for an overall championship.

That does cost money, and there are a good deal of racers that can't supply that kind of financial aid to their program.

In 1995 and 1996, I was obligated to a guy to win some national championships.  The only points that I would receive would be in the classes that I raced in.  A good deal of travel, so that would reduce the competition, so to speak.

The only way to beat me was to win against me, not just score more points  each weekend by entering more classes.

AMA Superbike, FUSA, MotoGP, etc all race for their number one plates by accumulating points in each class for the championship.

In those cases, you certainly don't buy luck.  You fall down or break, you don't score points.  You'll have to hope that someone else doesn't have luck too, or you'll have to decimate the competition.  That certainly requires more luck, determination, etc.

My example in my CCS championship was that I had more points than the number two guy.  In each class, which I raced nine events a weekend, I was the champion in eight of those classes.  I got second in one class because of a case a bad luck one weekend.

Did I buy the championship?  

Yes.

I didn't have a whole mess of competitors trying to do the same thing as me racing nine events.  I'd leave each weekend with six to three wins.  I used that part of my luck and determination so that I didn't even have to go to the final event of the series so that I could complete my full AMA schedule too.

So, Heather and Stumpy, no one has said that anything you have done is bad.  You did well.  It was a lot of time and money.  Those opportunities don't come often.  This is coming from someone who's been in your postion.

However, the stark reality of CCS overall championships come down to just how many races can one enter to get more points.  

Doc Stein is a great guy, but he just plain didn't look so hot with a number one plate getting lapped.  That representation of the number one plate holder has happened quite often because the number one plate is available for purchase. Yes, what he did was physically strenous getting off a bike and on to another.  It was a struggle.  

In the top twenty overall positions, you're gonna have a good number of guys that race several races during a weekend.  But a lot of those people just can't get the time off or there isn't the availability of classes to race enough to get more points.

If you're Brian Hall, racing a GSXR750, you just can't race as many classes.  The only way to win the overall championship is to get a 600 or something else to get more classes for points.  He can only race in five classes as it is, yet finished sixth.  If he doesn't have a good day, like he did in front of me at Blackhawk in the kink in August, a race for the championships might be over.

On the flip side, CCS regional points pay to fiftieth place.

That plays a role in all this too.

Example.

Doc Stein and Brian Johnson had similar amounts of points with different philosophys.

Doc averaged almost seventeen points every time out...that's thirty fourth place every time he hit the track.

Brain averaged a little over forty eight points every time out...that's sixth each time.

To get the points they had, each rider had to enter a different number of classes.

Doc - 232 races....at $35 each...that's $8120

Brian - 77 races....at $35 each...that's $2695

With more than $5000 difference in just the entries alone...overall championships are bought.

I've been trying to advocate change for some time to get the overall championship points figured over a riders best five events for some time.  Only way to make it a real race for the number one plate.

I have to stand by it.
Super Dave

StumpysWife

And I agree with you Dave.  ;)

I would just hate for someone to look at the #1 on my husband's bike and wonder where the SV is that won it for him.  That's why I get a little defensive.   ;D

I've thought this over, too.  What if, on your license app, you selected five classes you would compete in throughout the year to count toward your overall points?  If you aren't interested in top ten plates or whatever, then don't worry about it.  But those who want to compete, declare your qualifying classes and go on with it. I'm not a fan of just one class being the premiere class as I think it would exclude a lot of riders.  But imagine if Ed Key could declare five classes?  I think we know who'd win!

Again Dave, I agree with you.  I just get slightly irritated with those people who haven't even tried it who declare it "purchased".   :P

Heather


Super Dave

Make it easy...

CCS is supposed to have put a computer in place last year that would have been able to do new things for them.

I know that a couple few years ago, the average number of classes that a rider entered was about 4.5.

I think that is down now.

The big question is:  if you might have an outside chance in a decent and exciting points chase, would you try and do it?

As it is now, the real run for the championship comes down to a few riders.  The rest don't bother, as the budget to do have the opportunity to do it is huge...enter a whole bunch of classes.

We've got a bell shaped curve right.

The largest amount of riders enter a little over three races each.  On either end, you've got one to two races per rider and the rider that enters lots of races.

So, if you can get the mass of riders to enter more races...hey, then CCS can have good dates that are paid for and have full weekend program rather than the goofy one day race events that starred last year at times.

Allow the rider to enter as many classes as they want...you want CCS to make money...but only allow five of their best finishes to count.  Me, yeah, my budget is tight, I'd be entering a minimal number of classes.  I'd try to make my point by finishing strong and up front.  As would many riders.

I think that kind of program would benefit CCS in entries, and benefit riders as more riders would have a decent shot at an opportunity for a number plate.

Would it make the plates more coveted?

Well, yeah.  

I was eleventh in the AMA National 750 Supersport Championship once.  I really worked hard for that.  I'm in a crash video that was sold nationally trying to compete in that class.  Needless to say, I didn't finish that race.  I raced at Sears Point with a basically broken transmission.  I raced at Charlotte Motorspeedway with a broken foot (not from racing).  Luck, determination, and hard work helped.  Could have done better...

But I wasn't going to get any extra points for spending more money than someone else in entry fees.
Super Dave

tzracer

QuoteAs it is now, the real run for the championship comes down to a few riders. ÊThe rest don't bother, as the budget to do have the opportunity to do it is huge...enter a whole bunch of classes.

We've got a bell shaped curve right.

The largest amount of riders enter a little over three races each. ÊOn either end, you've got one to two races per rider and the rider that enters lots of races.


[mathematician]
Actually it would probably be closer to a Poisson distribution rather than a Gaussian (bell shaped) distribution since your mean (3 classes) is probably within 3 standard deviations of the lower bound (zero classes). For a Gaussian distribution, your mean cannot be close to an upper or lower bound.
[/mathematician]

Anyways, I think a rider should pick the classes they are going to apply to the number one plate, not just the best of the weekend. All classes should be allowed.
Brian McLaughlin
http://www.redflagfund.org
Donate at http://www.donate.redflagfund.org
 
2 strokes smoke, 4 strokes choke

tshort

QuoteWhat if, on your license app, you selected five classes you would compete in throughout the year to count toward your overall points? [snip] But imagine if Ed Key could declare five classes?  I think we know who'd win!


Interesting discussion.  In fact, by default Ed (and the rest of us LW pikers) only have four classes that count toward the overall championship.  LWSS, LWSB, LWGP, and GTL.  If they counted points for all the races that SV's are competitive in - i.e.,  Thunderbikes, Supertwins, and LW40 - Ed could add another couple thousand points to his season, and he'd be right in there for the number 1 plate.

Guess the fundamental problem is that in WSB and MotoGP, there is only one premier class, and then a number of support classes.  So you end up with a WSB Champion and a MotoGP Champion, along with champions in 125cc, 250cc, etc.  And they race a lot fewer races than we do during a season (WSB: 22 races; MotoGP: 16 races; me, last year: 80+)

I don't  know how to translate that into CCS/club racing, since we have so many classes - but isn't that the beauty of this?  

He11, look at NASCAR and the way their system worked last year. The schedule included around 40 races.  Kenseth only won one of them all season, and finished out of the top ten in 12 races.  Yet he only had to finish his last race - didn't matter if he was dead last (which he was pretty close to, as it turned out), and he still won the whole thing.  

Having said all that, Team Stumpy rocks!  You guys run a solid program, and Greg turned in solid performances all season, in my opinion.  Congrats (again).
Tom
ThinkFast Racing
AFM #280 EX
ex-CCS #128

StumpysWife

#16
Back to the five races thing...

Say you had five races that counted toward the overall score, whether it be your best finishes or races you declared at the beginning of the season.

Of those races you would earn the regular points scale 1st-65, 2nd-60, 3rd-56, 4th-53, 5th-50, etc.

PLUS a bonus was awarded depending on the number of people in the race.  Say there is 20 people in the race.  1st place would get 65 plus 20, 2nd place would get 60 plus 19, 3rd place would get 56 plus 18 and so on down.  If there's only 5 people in the race 1st place would only get an additional 5 points.  

Now this would create more work for CCS in the points tallying, but would be great for weighting races according to how many people you had to beat.  

What am I missing here?

I don't think CCS would lose money as I don't think people are going to sign up for more or less races because of this system.  Track championships could work this way, too.  

Or maybe it is time to cut the points scale in half, especially if there are double points races on more than one occasion.

Heather

PS - Tom, you are the best!  I hope you can make it to the banquet!!! We miss you!!!

Super Dave

Points...

How many races has anyone been in this year that actually had 50 entrants?

The FUSA points structure should be used.

Points pay to 15th, that's it.

So, if you go out and circulate in 20th, you get no points.

Ed...

Yeah, well, competitive you said, Tom.

Is a 600 competitive against a 1000?

Ed did 1:13.5's at the last Blackhawk.  That would probably be pretty competitive against a lot of riders in MW classes.

F40 just can't count as it's just built around a specific age.  Thunderbike, I think, should count.  

ST?  Don't know.  
Super Dave

Roger@ASMA

The computer used won't compute the points based on + riders finished ahead of.....I know......I asked because that's how we do our points here. Believe me it's a pain in the .........

Zac

Roger, do you want an excel sheet that will calculate points for you?

 ;D

-z.

Roger@ASMA

Actually, that's not the problem. The problem is adding them up manually and then the typo's that go with it  ???