Small twins & Thumper Class?

[CCS854]

Define hordes...

In the MW/GP/GL region, if we had one to three bikes, that was incredible.  

SV's and 600's are going to have hordes.

How many did you have in your area?

On the WERA rules, you should post what Vintage 4 is...as to make the definition of their structure clear.

O.K. I forgot to put the ::) emoticon after 'hordes'

Here's V-4:

Vintage 4
Pre 1982 Twins/Triples up to 1000cc.
Pre 1979 SOHC up to 840cc.
Pre 1982 Air cooled, 4-stroke OHC multi cylinders up to 570cc. Twin shock only, twin piston opposed Lockheed style calipers permitted.

Among the eligible V 4 machines are the following: BMW R100 regardless of year; Pre-1974 BSA/Triumph with big bore kits; Pre 1988 Cagiva/Ducati 650cc Desmo types and Ducati 900SS bevel drive; H-D Sportsters up to 1000cc including Evo models; Pre-1974 Honda CB 750 overbored to 840cc and Rickman single cam; Honda Ascot/GB singles up to 600cc regardless of year. Kawasaki GPZ550 and KZ 550; Moto-Guzzi small block V Twins regardless of year and pre-1974 Moto-Guzzi 1000; Norton 850; Suzuki GS 450 and GS 550; Yamaha SRX 600 regardless of year and Seca 550.

[CCS854]

classes were killed because of light turnout. if someone started producing a bike to fit in that class you might see a resrecetion(sp). the WERA rules are almost an exact match of ULSB for 2004 as they allow Ducati 750 Hawk 650 and FZR400. I think the WERA rule posted was from 2002?

The rules are from the 2004 on-line rulebook:

http://www.wera.com/pages/rulebook.htm#ch9

The class is significantly different from ULW Sbike in that the Duc 750SS, Hawk, street-legal repli-racers such as TZR, NSR etc all are restricted to Superstock rules.  Clubman Expert champ in 2002 was on a SZR660 Yamaha thumper, and in 2003 an EX500 powered hybrid won!  I wouldn't recommend allowing superstock (CCS, Supersport) bikes in a builder's class as it require more policing & protests, with consequent ill will.  

[CCS854]

There has been a problem w/the proliferation of classes w/small grids, so I understand the need to consolidate classes at times, but how?  CCS created the SuperSingles class for 2000 even tho' an exhibition race in Nov '99 only produced about 8 bikes  :o.  The 125 GP & Supermotard classes in WERA typically turnout only grid a handful of bikes, although Clubman continues to be popular.

In '97 Sportsman underwent some changes.  It was renamed LW Sportsman, and HW Sportsman & GP Singles were created.  LW Sportsman bike structure didn't change, except in name, from Sportsman; however, there was no distinction between EX & Am in either that class or GP Singles that first year.  Combining Experts & Amateurs is an option for smaller classes, rather than bumping the smaller bikes up against faster machines...I know that racing my thumper as an Amateur against a field of 125GP Experts quickly elevated my game  ;)

As a worst case scenario I could see CCS combining Supersingles with the LW Sportsman bikes if necessary into one combined EX/AM class until the numbers justified expanding classes again.

[r6_philly]

if I have 2 classes to run a 400 motard in I will bring it next year. I mentioned that to Kevin as well at VIR. split the Sportman so the super single, motord and little bikes dont have to run with the larger faster bikes. IF there are 2 classes to run a single/sportman bike in we may see more entries. God knows we all have something that fits the mold in the garage but I Am not going to drag it to the track for 1 fun race.

[Zac]

if I have 2 classes to run a 400 motard in I will bring it next year. I mentioned that to Kevin as well at VIR. split the Sportman so the super single, motord and little bikes dont have to run with the larger faster bikes. IF there are 2 classes to run a single/sportman bike in we may see more entries. God knows we all have something that fits the mold in the garage but I Am not going to drag it to the track for 1 fun race.

I'll usually race my CR500 in Ultra-lightwieght superbike and GTL.  You could also race LWSB (no LWSS due to non-stock wheels, etc.).  How competitive the motards are is really dependent on the track and how worked the bike is.  An average stock 450 makes somewhere around 45-50 hp and get wasted on power.  The big factory KTMs make over 70 hp and probably weigh around 230, could give an SV some serious problems.  

My somewhat worked 500 will hang with the RS250 Aprilias, they have me beat on corner speed, but I have way more low speed acceleration and the top end is about the same.  On the right track (slow corners and short straights) I can give the SVs a run.

-z.

[r6_philly]

I'll usually race my CR500 in Ultra-lightwieght superbike and GTL.  You could also race LWSB (no LWSS due to non-stock wheels, etc.).  How competitive the motards are is really dependent on the track and how worked the bike is.  An average stock 450 makes somewhere around 45-50 hp and get wasted on power.  The big factory KTMs make over 70 hp and probably weigh around 230, could give an SV some serious problems.  

My somewhat worked 500 will hang with the RS250 Aprilias, they have me beat on corner speed, but I have way more low speed acceleration and the top end is about the same.  On the right track (slow corners and short straights) I can give the SVs a run.

-z.

I know I can always "race up" a little, but it would be nice to have a LWsportsman and a supersingle to race in, without having too much disadvantage.

I know I am going to be spanked lol but it would nice to have some other bikes to beat. If ther eare going to be 5-6 motords at any weekend then I Wouldn't really care who win the race as long as I got some people to race with. More participation will definitely be more fun, but to just one class to play in (GTL will have SV's  :o) kind of not worth it for me to bring it.

[riopko]

I went to WERA in 2004 because I was limited to one competitive race, ULWSB, with CCS. I understood the reasoning CCS used as we had very small grids here in the southeast for LW sportsman. Makes sense to set classes to serve the most people. I kept my CCS license and planned to make a few weekends but an injury prevented that. The class structure in WERA is better for the small and often older bikes. Grids are still small but at least double the ones from 2003 CCS. Two organizations, two philosiphies, both work well. If there are more classes It would be great but here in the southeast the turnout just did not justify it. :-[

[Thumper881]

My first post,take it easy on me.
  I didn't check all the region's, but didn't a single win the M.A. ULWSB championship?  

[Pants_Romano]

Hey Eric, Pants here.  I'd like to give you a run for your money at Daytona this year, but what classes should I enter?

By the way, for the rest of you kind folks, I run an MuZ, usually right behind Eric.   :P

[CCS854]

Pants,
   Glad to see you found your way to this forum.  I've been back at work for 6 wks...no spare time for this until now.

Doesn't look like CCS bumped the XB9/DUC 750SS from ULWSB for '05.  I was a little disappointed that I never got a response from Kevin Elliott on the ULWSB issue, so I guess they've written off the singles & small twins.  If CCS was the only game in town, I'd bite the bullet and buy another bike, but I can stay busy racing w/WERA in the Mid-Atlantic...Vintage 4/5 on the SRX, Clubman,DSS on the MuZ.  Throw in a few AHRMA races and I've got plenty to do.  

If I do any CCS, it'll just be VIR on the Thumper, and then bring the 900cc Triumph to Daytona in the fall.  I can't afford the wear & tear on the singles if they're not competitive.

[Thumper881]

Hey Eric,
 I don't understand you? If they take out the Buells& the small Ducs there would be no one on the grid. I ran the whole season hoping i'd run in to you some time. I know your bike is fast enough, and if any knows there way around VIR. Whats the big deal!
 I didn't win one race last season , but I had a hell of a good time. Sold my MuZ to Bob Up in the LRRS.
so I guess we can compete together any more  :(
                                It was fun..... ;D

[PJ]

Actually, CCS did bump the XB9 out of ULSB for 2005. The Duc 750/800s and everything else stay in. Not sure what the point of this was, since the Ducatis, at least in the Midwest/Great Plains, were just as competitive as the XB9. And the Aprilias and Hawks were also very competitive. A Duc 800 won the class National Championship last year (when the class was called Middleweight Sportsman) at Daytona and another one won again this past year at Homestead.

Now I will have to either sell my XB9 or invest the $$$ to build it into a 12. Too bad. I really liked the class and had some great races with guys like Gary Palmer (Duc 750), Aaron Risinger (Apr 250), Kevin Weir (MuZ) and Billy Breitung (Hawk 700).

In the Midwest/Great Plains region, there will be 3 less bikes (XB9s) on the grid in a class that barely averaged enough for tire contingency. Plus Gary Palmer is now considering quitting the class in order for us to continue our great races and build a bigger Duc motor to be more competitive in the LW classes.

Singles guys, I feel your pain. But I'm afraid this class will wither away and die just like super singles did.