Motorcycle Racing Forum

Racing Discussion => Racing Discussion => Topic started by: Knightslugger on December 07, 2009, 12:26:58 AM

Title: Protective Gear Question
Post by: Knightslugger on December 07, 2009, 12:26:58 AM
Hello everyone!

I'll be competing in the Amatuer Middleweight classes next year and have a quick question about tech as i'm sure they are a little more stringent that a trackday.

I took a bad tumble last June and it seems my helmet got a little scraped. i know it didn't hit the pavement hard, but some have questioned the soundess pf the helmet. Personally, i have no doubt in my mind that it took no hit and is 100% reuasable.
(http://lh6.ggpht.com/_RxGbM4X_vCc/SxyMFc28j5I/AAAAAAAAJcA/7QfRLv05QiY/s800/IMG_0001.JPG)(http://lh4.ggpht.com/_RxGbM4X_vCc/SxyMHaf2jMI/AAAAAAAAJcI/plBiBxjgc1Q/s800/IMG_0003.JPG)(http://lh3.ggpht.com/_RxGbM4X_vCc/SxyMH2Kn3fI/AAAAAAAAJcQ/PVpa4LKEjCQ/s800/IMG_0005.JPG)

It looks like the epoxy got chipped away, and that's all.

What do you think? Will this pass tech or do i have to go get a new friggin helmet?

Also, i'd appreciate the tech soundness of my suit:

http://picasaweb.google.com/humphreycharlesa/ASuitCrash1#

thanks in advance!
Title: Re: Protective Gear Question
Post by: hernan52 on December 07, 2009, 02:08:54 AM
I'm concerned to hear you are 100% sure that it's fully reusable.
For the look of it, it's not.
Do yourself a favor and send it to the manufacturer for inspection.
You have all winter.....
The issue is generally the inner foam (which is critical to decelerate the brain in case of an impact) not the shell.

Hernan
Title: Re: Protective Gear Question
Post by: Woofentino Pugrossi on December 07, 2009, 02:28:54 AM
Charles, just buy a new helmet. Helmets arent something you want to skimp on.

As for the leathers, they look fine other than the hole in the arm which should be patched up (plug for Spyderleatherworks :) ). Alexa can fix it up.
Title: Re: Protective Gear Question
Post by: Burt Munro on December 07, 2009, 02:42:40 AM
OK.....  here's where I'm coming from:  I work Tech in the Midwest Region and I speak only from my experience in the Midwest and Great Plains regions.  Tech rules should be consistant from region to region but like anything else, depend on the interpretation of the person doing the inspection.

From the photos of your helmet it looks like scratches are more than just 'scuffs'.  I know photos sometimes don't tell the whole picture.  But those scratches look like they go into the shell of the helmet and that would concern me.  Is it enough to compromise the strength of the shell?  I would hate to find out you're wrong the hard way!  Can you send it in to the manufacturer for a professional assessment?  How much did you pay for the helmet and whats it going to cost to treat a significant head injury?  Check out the thread on the WERA board on Zac Chapman http://forums.13x.com/showthread.php?t=224418 (http://forums.13x.com/showthread.php?t=224418) who was up walking around after a crash at VIR last August and is now in a rehab hospital in Texas.   Not the same situation as yours but a good argument for why you need the best equipment possible.

Is it worth taking a chance?  I've always been told that a helmet is not a place where you want to cut corners.

As far as your leathers, here again, pictures are hard to assess.  You've got one shot where it looks like the stitching is unraveled a little.   I can't tell if it's from being stressed when you went down before.  If it is - get it fixed.  You don't want any loose stitching at key points of contact: shoulders, elbows, lower back, hips or knees.
You also don't want any thin spots from previous contact.  If it wore halfway thru the first time, what if you go down on that same spot again?  No margin for protection is not a good thing.  Scuffs or very minor abrasions are not a major concern.  

Do you know someone who does leather repair?  Someone like Alexa at Spyder Leather who is one of the Moderators on this board will give you an honest, no question about it opinion on if you need repairs.  She's been doing leather repair for years, has seen all kinds or damaged leathers and can tell what will keep you safe and what won't.

Probably not the answers you wanted to hear - but why take a chance?

I do a lot of BS'ing on this board.  When it comes to safety equipment - I don't BS.

Rick
Title: Re: Protective Gear Question
Post by: skiandclimb on December 07, 2009, 08:19:37 AM
As mentioned before- the inner foam is the key to helmet safety.  I don't know a motorcyclist anywhere who hasn't accidentally knocked his lid on the ground and found a nice chip in the paint, and thought, "Dammit!"  A knock like that typically won't comprimise the integrity of the helmet  though.  That would be a good example of "damage" that would pass a tech inspector.

Your lid appears to be a  carbon fiber shell, right?  That's some tough stuff, but from the pics, it looks like the damage is a bit more severe than knocking it off your tank.

Just my two cents, but I think it would be in your best interest to look towards the heavens and thank God you made a sound decision in buying a quality lid- which obviously saved you from a head injury.  Your helmet did its job.  They are (although unfortunately) expendable pieces of gear.

Another suggestion would be to look for a high quality, yet less expensive (example: solid color) helmet to race in.  Racing isn't a "will you go down?" proposition.  It's a "WHEN will you go down." proposition.  That being said- many racers stay away from expensive replica helmets, and high dollar carbon lids.

I would send it back to the manufacturer.  If they say it's ok- it's ok, as they will not sign off on a potential liability.  If it IS compromised- just get a new one, and again- thank God that it served it's intended purpose.

I'll get off my soapbox now!

Best of luck, and welcome to the addiction!!!!!!

-Ski
Title: Re: Protective Gear Question
Post by: limy_1 on December 07, 2009, 08:23:40 AM
The best suggestion that there is goes to anything safety related from safety wire to your gear.

If you have to question it, just do it.  :spank: :spank: :spank:

In this case get a new helmet and have your leathers checked.
If the leathers check OK all it cost you is the freight, if not it could have cost you your a$$.
Title: Re: Protective Gear Question
Post by: Knightslugger on December 07, 2009, 09:49:54 AM
I only question it from a tech perspective because there is a lot of OHMYGOSH YOUR HELMET HAS DAMAGE and everyone says to replace it, it's compromised, blah blah blah. Again i believe that there is nothing wrong with the EPS. I've taken it apart, there is zero internal damage. My belief is that if the shell had taken some ANY impact (enough to compress the EPS even just a smidgen) the epoxy on the shell would be annihilated and the CF would be soft. neither of these is the case.

as for the leathers, i think it's a good idea to get the second stitch re-done as well.
Title: Re: Protective Gear Question
Post by: George_Linhart on December 07, 2009, 10:26:39 AM
With all due respect - if you already made up your mind on this, why bother to ask the question?

We tried to give you advice and guidance, both from a tech inspection perspective as well as from a big picture perspective.  You don't like the answer and dismiss it  because it differs from your belief...  I just don't get the purpose of posting her to start.

Let us know if there is any advice you need where you have not made up your mind and are willing to listen.

Geoge
Title: Re: Protective Gear Question
Post by: duckracer996 on December 07, 2009, 10:34:01 AM
You are still looking at it the wrong way. The carbon shell may look and feel solid, and it may be fine. But the impact faom inside is the issue and you can't just look at that and call it good. I would get a new lid. Your brain is worth more! As the saying goes "$10 head, $10 helmet! And if that is the Icon or KBC carbon lid, I would for sure replace it!!!!!!
Title: Re: Protective Gear Question
Post by: Knightslugger on December 07, 2009, 10:48:53 AM
HJC Has an email. My only question is in regards to something i can't control, which is the technical aspect of CCS Racing, something i have never experienced for myself nor spoken about to anyone else.

honestly, it barely touched the ground sliding at 40 MPH. and it's garbage... can't race with it... wont pass tech.

Christ, maybe i should get a new lid with a PVC shell. that way it's just looks like it really is... just a scratch. though i guess even a scrtch (or a pock mark for that matter) goes into the shell and it's done for :rollseyes:
Title: Re: Protective Gear Question
Post by: Eric Kelcher on December 07, 2009, 11:18:16 AM
By no means is this the be all end all answer to this but these are two criteria that will fail a helmet

if the mesh fiberglass of helmet has been ripped compressed or cracked, ie the helmet stucture not the gel or clear coat

If upon inspection of interior foam spider webbing is evident, the EFS is spray painted and when compressed breaks the paint surface

now I have a helmet that I would never compete on again that shows no visible damage fiberglass shell gel coat is not chipped interior foam shows no compression but my injuries tell me it is DONE, landed on top of my head broke collarbone and scalp split open. Would it take a low side impact most likely and I never plan to highside again so I guess I can keep using it  :ahhh:
Title: Re: Protective Gear Question
Post by: spyderchick on December 07, 2009, 11:27:35 AM
First, we can fix your leathers for less than $80 most likely. (Unless we find something else not in your photos.)

Second, on the helmet issue, Refer to Burt Monro's response as he's the tech guy 'round these parts.

My take on the helmet: ask yourself this one question: What if you're wrong and this helmet is compromised? You are not an expert or you would not be asking the forum for an answer. Don't want to spend money on a new helmet? Get the current one checked. If it's done, put it in the trophy case and be happy it did it's job.

If you need a new helmet, then ask yourself what you feel your brain is worth. If it's only worth $75, then by all means get a $75 helmet that will pass equipment rules. Otherwise, do the research and get the best you can afford, even if that means putting off a track day, set of tires, or entry fees for an event or two. IMHO, I personally would rather miss an event and have great equipment, than go racing with marginal gear and have a worst case scenario come to pass.

For the record, that's more than a pock mark or scratch. The G forces generated in a 40 mph crash are fairly significant. I wouldn't diminish the fact that the helmet very well may be unusable.
Title: Re: Protective Gear Question
Post by: skiandclimb on December 07, 2009, 11:36:25 AM
Quote from: Knightslugger on December 07, 2009, 10:48:53 AM

Christ



EXACTLY!  Anytime we can walk away from a get-off it is a good thing....and He should be thanked.


I apologize if my post came off as "preachy" but I do a program with children, where I show them wrecked racing helmets and show them the need for proper, well maintained safety gear.  Luckily, many of my racing buddies around here will give me their wrecked lids to show the kids.

I looked again at those pics, and noticed the scrape(s) appears to have compromised the exopy resin, and first layer of CF.  It also looks like it is somewhere in the middle/back of the lid?  First off, bro- I am not a helmet "expert" nor am I Dr. Phil....so I'll keep the preachy stuff to a minimum!

Here's my thoughts- with a scrape like yours on the back, middle portion of the lid, I would be weary of this compromising the integrity of the lid from a side impact.  Here's an example:

Take a piece of quality, properly resined CF.  Now flex it.  If it's good, high quality stuff- it will flew and not crack.  Now, merely score the CF with a utility knife and flex in the same manner.  It will crack at the point of existing damage.

Take this and apply it to your melon during a race.  You tip into a corner at 110 MPH or so, in a tight pack of racers.  The guy on your inside makes a line correction, or loses the front  and causes you to go down.  Ask Tom Shaw about this, but racers do get run over sometimes.  We also hit walls sometimes.  I don't want to do either of these with a compromised helmet.  Furthermore, I do not wish to see a fellow racer get a serious head injury (or worse) because of an inadequate helmet.  ...Hence our quasi-preachiness.

Racing is filled with inherent risks.  We do everything to limit these risks by using good gear, and allowing a tech inspector to act as an impartial judge.  You will often see racers with some fugly leathers that have been brought back to life, but never with a compromised helmet.

Anywho, best regards, and again- I hope I'm not coming off as a dick. I've had a few buddies go down and receive some VERY serious injuries.  This stuff is risky enough, bro.  We want you to grid up and also go home at the end of the day in your own vehicle.

Peace,
Ski
Title: Re: Protective Gear Question
Post by: Knightslugger on December 07, 2009, 11:48:00 AM
Quote from: Eric Kelcher on December 07, 2009, 11:18:16 AM
...these are two criteria that will fail a helmet...

Are there others?
Title: Re: Protective Gear Question
Post by: skiandclimb on December 07, 2009, 11:51:08 AM
Yes, age of the lid (stamped inside) as well as its safety rating, or lack of.  IE: Snell, DOT Euro etc.  Also, the chin strap, shield attachment points, loose vents etc etc.

Hope this helps,
Ski
Title: Re: Protective Gear Question
Post by: Knightslugger on December 07, 2009, 12:15:43 PM
specifics would be appreciated. the rule book says very little about anything.
Title: Re: Protective Gear Question
Post by: spyderchick on December 07, 2009, 12:21:28 PM
Quote from: Knightslugger on December 07, 2009, 12:15:43 PM
specifics would be appreciated. the rule book says very little about anything.

So basically, no matter what advice you get on just replacing compromised gear, if tech would pass that helmet you would wear it?

Your melon, you decide whether it's worth the risk.

Hey Rick, if you see this lid come through tech you can give the owner a nice lecture.  :preachon:  :biggrin:



Title: Re: Protective Gear Question
Post by: GSXR RACER MIKE on December 07, 2009, 12:23:51 PM
The advice your getting here is from people who are actively involved in the very sport your going to be participating in, so far people in race control / racer support / and experienced racers have all responded, I wouldn't discredit the advice you get here too quickly.

Many of us have been hurt (sometimes really bad), had freinds that were, or were there when fellow racers were injured, paralyzed, or even killed - safety isn't something taken lightly in actual racing. Sending the helmet to the manufacturer for a professional inspection is inexpensive and provides peace of mind, I can't even fathom why you wouldn't go that route?
Title: Re: Protective Gear Question
Post by: Knightslugger on December 07, 2009, 01:45:30 PM
never said i wouldn't... As i said before, HJC has an email.

I asked about tech, i was given a unanimous MAYBE, i asked about the technical requirements for pass/fail and i got two.

If i can save >$400 by not purchasing a new helmet because the one i have is perfectly fine because i know the technical requirements of pass/fail and inspected it myself BEFORE race day (Before i drop >$90) and i know the same procedure will be done by tech, you can bet your bottom that i will.

Quote from: spyderchick on December 07, 2009, 12:21:28 PM
So basically, no matter what advice you get on just replacing compromised gear, if tech would pass that helmet you would wear it?

Hell yes.
Title: Re: Protective Gear Question
Post by: Knightslugger on December 07, 2009, 02:22:23 PM
Response from HJC:

"In response to your inquiry, we do not offer any such inspection program.  We recommend to replace a helmet after any drops or impacts including accidents.  Scratches and chips you can either buff out or get touch up paint at any hardware store.  Paint has to be 2 stage urethane automotive paint with base and clear coat combo."

The next pat makes me roll my eyes...

"We appreciate your business and contributions in making HJC Helmet North
America's number one helmet selling company for the past decade.

Please visit www.hjchelmets.com for our new and exciting product line (FS-15, IS-16,
CL-16, Sy-Max II, IS-Max, FS-3, FS-2, IS-33, IS-2, CS-2N, CS-5N, SPXN, CL-X6, CL-XY)
alongside recent past models.  There are still more new models to come very soon in the future!

Thank You.

Sincerely,
Fritzie Cota
HJCA Customer Service Rep"

'We don't test em, we prefer you to buy a new one!'  :lmao: :rollseyes: :banghead:
Title: Re: Protective Gear Question
Post by: HerbigCBR on December 07, 2009, 02:40:32 PM
I do not come to the track with just one helmet, I always have a spare just in case anything happens. (crash, rain, theft, tech, etc)
I personally would buy a new one and keep that one for the street or a backup. Racing is not cheap, but thats not a place to corners either.
Title: Re: Protective Gear Question
Post by: Boober on December 07, 2009, 02:44:34 PM
Look at it from a totally different angle......you take off work, spend all day friday getting your transport vehicle loaded, bike loaded, tools, gear, etc. You drive however many hours to camp or hotel it overnight, get to the track at the crack of dawn....pay your weekend gate fee...register....unload your stuff and set up your pits.  Now it's time to go see Rick in tech. Lug your bike and all your gear over to tech to wait in line for 15 minutes( Rick is sooooo slow in the morning) and you cannot ride because your helmet does not pass tech!!!  Now you can hope a trackside vendor has your size in some weird brand of helmet which will cost you $$450 or try to borrow one or you can take advantage of the off season sales and get a new one NOW!

ps don't forget to put your number on both sides of the helmet
Title: Re: Protective Gear Question
Post by: spyderchick on December 07, 2009, 02:58:46 PM
If it doesn't matter what we say, just wear the damn thing and take your chances. I think George already said this.

As I understand it, you want someone else to tell you to take the risk. Ain't gonna happen. There's a cumulative experience in this thread that is telling you to retire it if it took a good impact. 40 mph is a good impact. Follow that with a 80-120 mph impact and expect the helmet to do it's job? Maybe in your world that sounds like a good idea, not in mine.

QuoteI took a bad tumble last June and it seems my helmet got a little scraped. i know it didn't hit the pavement hard, but some have questioned the soundess pf the helmet. Personally, i have no doubt in my mind that it took no hit and is 100% reuasable.

Considering the conflict in the above sentence, you have no real idea of the type of impact that you had.

Do what you want, you are old enough to get a race license, so you are old enough to sign the waiver that states you are responsible for yourself and your conduct on the track. That includes the personal choices you make in the gear you wear during a sanctioned event. 

I'm generally not this obviously irritated by a post, but considering I hear tons of crash stories both as part of my work and through the Red Flag Fund, I know the consequences of inches, seconds and a bad decision. We want you in one piece to be competitive for a long time. If you take a casual attitude to the single most important item of safety gear when you are just getting started, what else might you cut corners on? You might want to reflect on the overall cost of competing in this sport, not just the monetary cost, but the physical and emotional costs that come with racing.

Good luck, and much success for the future.   
Title: Re: Protective Gear Question
Post by: Burt Munro on December 07, 2009, 04:00:45 PM
Quote from: Boober on December 07, 2009, 02:44:34 PM
 Now it's time to go see Rick in tech. Lug your bike and all your gear over to tech to wait in line for 15 minutes( Rick is sooooo slow in the morning) and you cannot ride because your helmet does not pass tech!!!  

Boober,

Remind me what your race # is again.  I want to make sure your Tech Inspection at your next race gets 'special attention' !   :ass:   :biggrin:
Title: Re: Protective Gear Question
Post by: Knightslugger on December 07, 2009, 04:05:31 PM
Quote from: spyderchick on December 07, 2009, 02:58:46 PM
As I understand it, you want someone else to tell you to take the risk.

You are mistaken. I'm asking for technical information on Pass / Fail. Will it pass tech? That's not the same question as "Should i wear it? Is it safe?". Unfortunately those are the majority of answers I am getting, to a question I am not asking.

the damage to the shell of the helmet speaks for itself. it did not take a 40 MPH obtuse strike. It touched the ground momentarily while i was sliding/tumbling

Look i don't want to fight with any of you. the helmet was scratched while i was sliding, which means it hit the deck. no question about it! BUT, if it hit the deck HARD there would be MUCH more substantial damage to the shell if that was that was truly the case due to it's construction. the top coat is incredibly thin and brittle. Epoxy? no, apparently it's a Polyurethane clear coat. the CF shell is scratched. yes. undoubtedly. bad enough to snap when struck? unlikely, in my opinion.

i have enough faith in the helmet that it has not been compromised and will protect me in the event it has to serve it's purpose. OK? Are we all clear on this?

Quote from: Boober on December 07, 2009, 02:44:34 PM
Look at it from a totally different angle......you take off work, spend all day friday getting your transport vehicle loaded, bike loaded, tools, gear, etc. You drive however many hours to camp or hotel it overnight, get to the track at the crack of dawn....pay your weekend gate fee...register....unload your stuff and set up your pits.  Now it's time to go see Rick in tech. Lug your bike and all your gear over to tech to wait in line for 15 minutes( Rick is sooooo slow in the morning) and you cannot ride because your helmet does not pass tech!!!  Now you can hope a trackside vendor has your size in some weird brand of helmet which will cost you $$450 or try to borrow one or you can take advantage of the off season sales and get a new one NOW!

ps don't forget to put your number on both sides of the helmet

That's why i'm asking, so i can be prepared before i get there.
Title: Re: Protective Gear Question
Post by: Burt Munro on December 07, 2009, 04:20:02 PM
Dear Knightslugger,

Please don't come to any of the races I'll be working.  I don't think you're going into this with the proper frame of mind.  If you're going to question all of this logical advice that is specifically aimed at keeping you alive, it makes me wonder what other rules/regulations you'll choose to disregard and find a short cut around.

On the other hand, print off the responses you received here and share them with someone whose opinion you respect and who cares about you being around for a few more years.  We haven't been able to get thru to you - maybe they'll be able to.

Here's to hoping that you figure it out!
Title: Re: Protective Gear Question
Post by: tstruyk on December 07, 2009, 04:24:58 PM
not to speak out of turn but if "in the opinoin of the tech inspector" the competitor is attempting to compete with equipment that is deemed "unsafe"... doesnt the tech inspector have the final say in wether or not it is a "pass or fail"?

I would HOPE that Rick has the power to allow or disallow someone from competing with equipment that may cause injury the individual competitor or worse others... regardless of what the "specifics" of the rules are.  Example... overly scratched face shield.  

I think you are asking question that requires an opinion of the person that will be inspecting the helment on that day at that track.  Some tech inspectors will tell you any damaged is too much damage... others may not.  Kinda arbitrary

take the advice given to save yourself the aggravation of the aforementioned scenario.  I would imagine if you where to poll ccs racers as a whole, more often than not they bring more than one helmet to the track... I bring 3  :biggrin:
Title: Re: Protective Gear Question
Post by: Knightslugger on December 07, 2009, 04:38:48 PM
Certainly, it's sound advice to bring (or at least have access to) more than one helmet.
Title: Re: Protective Gear Question
Post by: eboos on December 07, 2009, 04:39:58 PM
The summary is this:

There is too great a chance that the helmet is damaged to the point of not passing inspection. You should replace it. What is the date of manufacture? If it's 5 years old or older, it would fail anyway. If it's close, you should take it upon yourself to determine that it's usability is questionable. Just get another helmet.

Get the same model as your current one if you like, and then get them both inspected. If the first one passes, then you have a great backup/rain helmet. It would be a good idea to have a second one anyway just incase you junk yours during a race weekend.
Title: Re: Protective Gear Question
Post by: Knightslugger on December 07, 2009, 04:45:42 PM
Quote from: Burt Munro on December 07, 2009, 04:20:02 PM
Dear Knightslugger,

Please don't come to any of the races I'll be working.  I don't think you're going into this with the proper frame of mind.  If you're going to question all of this logical advice that is specifically aimed at keeping you alive, it makes me wonder what other rules/regulations you'll choose to disregard and find a short cut around.

WOW. That's a hell of a thing to say...
Title: Re: Protective Gear Question
Post by: spyderchick on December 07, 2009, 04:52:10 PM
The racers are telling you to get a new helmet, a tech inspector basically told you to get a new helmet in a very round about way, and HJC told you to get a new helmet.

So logically, you should ignore this advice. Paint the scratches and wear it, the tech guy will never know.  ::)

PS: try putting a 750 motor in a 600, they won't notice that either... :lmao:
Title: Re: Protective Gear Question
Post by: Burt Munro on December 07, 2009, 04:58:53 PM
That comment was based on my experience of doing Tech for the last 7 years.

I am pretty confident that any other Tech Inspector would tell you the same thing.  

90% of our issues in Tech come from 10% of the riders.  When you see a rider try to slide something questionable thru Tech it makes you start looking closer at everything else.  

If someone feels they are above the rules in one area there's a good chance they have the same opinion on most/all other rules.  

It may be a harsh reality, but I've found it to be true.

As I said before, you don't appear to value our opinions.  Find someone whose opinion you respect and have them read thru this - see if they come to the same conclusion that you have.
Title: Re: Protective Gear Question
Post by: spyderchick on December 07, 2009, 05:01:57 PM
For the record, Rick (Burt Monro) is a good guy and being way nice by looking out for you.

You might want to give some weight to what he has to say.

We love you Rick! Love live the pole dancer!
Title: Re: Protective Gear Question
Post by: Burt Munro on December 07, 2009, 05:06:22 PM
Thanks a lot Alexa!

Now everybody knows about the Pole Dancer!   :cheers:
Title: Re: Protective Gear Question
Post by: spyderchick on December 07, 2009, 05:08:03 PM
Quote from: Burt Munro on December 07, 2009, 05:06:22 PM
Thanks a lot Alexa!

Now everybody knows about the Pole Dancer!   :cheers:

Hey, that little pole dancer made us some good money!  :boink: :)
Title: Re: Protective Gear Question
Post by: Farmboy on December 07, 2009, 05:28:56 PM
Quote from: Knightslugger on December 07, 2009, 04:45:42 PM
WOW. That's a hell of a thing to say...

Yeah, don't mind Rick. The rest of us will welcome you with open arms; we just love new guys who disregard all our advice as they usually turn out to be the safest, most consistent, and considerate riders on the track. I bet you'll win every race, too.

This is such an inherently safe sport that we don't mind the prospect of riding with individuals who set a precedent like this before they even grid up for their first race. After all, if/when you screw up, what's the absolute worst that could happen to those who are near you at the time?

Sorry if we all come off as harsh, but this shit is dangerous, and you're getting off on the wrong foot from step one as we all potentially have to deal with the consequences if any of us screw up (and we do.) Little advice: if you disagree with the answers to your question, keep it to yourself. You won't change a single mind by continuing to argue your case. Believe me, I try it all the time...
Title: Re: Protective Gear Question
Post by: HAWK on December 07, 2009, 05:52:26 PM
Why does tech even look at the riders gear?

Wait, maybe it's because people will show up with gear that's not up to the task then sue someone else because they got hurt. Tech looks at helmets, boots, gloves, leathers....because some people think that safety rules are a nusiance.

As far as a helmet, the manufacturer spent a lot of time figuring out where it could cut weight, make things thinner etc. Then the helmet was tested by a safety organization to be sure that the R&D that the manufacturer did is valid and sound. Then you crashed it and all of the above went out the window. Helmets are designed to withstand 1 crash and they are DONE. The helmet is designed to absorb the G load by disintegrating, sometimes in ways you can see sometimes in ways you cannot detect. The damage on the helmet that you posted shows that it has done this in protecting you to as least some degree which means that to some degree it's ability to do it again is diminished. personally, I've thrown out helmets with a lot less damage than that.

As far as Rick is concerned, some riders will come to tech with all their gear a hundred times and he never finds anything wrong. Others will show up with a different problem every weekend. If you are a member of the second group expect to get looked at carefully. Personally I welcome a thourough tech inspection, maybe that's because in my line of work a second set of eyes is always considered a good thing
Title: Re: Protective Gear Question
Post by: eboos on December 07, 2009, 06:00:01 PM
Quote from: HAWK on December 07, 2009, 05:52:26 PM
Personally I welcome a thourough tech inspection, maybe that's because in my line of work a second set of eyes is always considered a good thing

I agree. I've had tech point things out to me that I hadn't noticed before, but would have been a problem if I raced with it. It's nice to have a second set of eyes.

Their job isn't to make sure that you have to spend more money. Their job is to make sure that your equipment is safe for you and others out on the track.
Title: Re: Protective Gear Question
Post by: Knightslugger on December 07, 2009, 06:26:11 PM
It's no wonder everyone goes broke racing...
Title: Re: Protective Gear Question
Post by: Knightslugger on December 07, 2009, 07:57:52 PM
Quote from: Farmboy on December 07, 2009, 05:28:56 PM
Sorry if we all come off as harsh, but this shit is dangerous, and you're getting off on the wrong foot from step one as we all potentially have to deal with the consequences if any of us screw up (and we do.) Little advice: if you disagree with the answers to your question, keep it to yourself. You won't change a single mind by continuing to argue your case. Believe me, I try it all the time...

disagree with answers? i was only given one so far, of which i don't disagree with at all in fact i'd like to hear more.

unless the pass/fail is thrown out the window by one person's opinion... then what the hell, i've got no choice, do i?
Title: Re: Protective Gear Question
Post by: dylanfan53 on December 07, 2009, 08:49:52 PM
Quote from: HAWK on December 07, 2009, 05:52:26 PM
The helmet is designed to absorb the G load by disintegrating, sometimes in ways you can see sometimes in ways you cannot detect.
...but what if he has xray eyes?  huh?  what about that? 
Title: Re: Protective Gear Question
Post by: Knightslugger on December 07, 2009, 09:12:20 PM
Jesus H Christ, will you guys GIVE IT A REST ALREADY!

The inner EPS is flawless
The outer shell is uncrushed
I cannot for the life of me depress the outer shell
If the outer shell took enough force to compress the outer EPS, the shell would display such damage.

It doesn't, therefore the entire EPS is intact and undamaged.

and yet all of you vehemently disagree?! because of a SCRATCH...?

So what will it take? hmm? Testing? Who'll test it? if you're going to give me any help at all, at least help me find someone that can re-certify it.
Title: Re: Protective Gear Question
Post by: funsizeracing on December 07, 2009, 09:19:24 PM
Quote from: Knightslugger on December 07, 2009, 09:12:20 PM
Jesus H Christ, will you guys GIVE IT A REST ALREADY!

The inner EPS is flawless
The outer shell is uncrushed
I cannot for the life of me depress the outer shell
If the outer shell took enough force to compress the outer EPS, the shell would display such damage.

It doesn't, therefore the entire EPS is intact and undamaged.

and yet all of you vehemently disagree?! because of a SCRATCH...?

So what will it take? hmm? Testing? Who'll test it? if you're going to give me any help at all, at least help me find someone that can re-certify it.
Great, its perfect. 
So cover it up with a little paint and bondo so tech will never know, slap some duck tape on those leathers and go racing!
Is that what you were wanting to hear?
Title: Re: Protective Gear Question
Post by: Knightslugger on December 07, 2009, 09:21:45 PM
go back to post 1 if you're curious as to what i'm wanting to hear...
Title: Re: Protective Gear Question
Post by: tstruyk on December 07, 2009, 09:33:26 PM
nesba sucks??   :biggrin:
Title: Re: Protective Gear Question
Post by: PJ721 on December 07, 2009, 09:42:34 PM


http://www.msf-usa.org/downloads/helmet_CSi.pdf

read the part about replacing your helmet....page 4
to sum it up...if you are too lazy to click and read...

"Replacing Your Helmet
Replace your helmet if it was involved in a crash;"
Title: Re: Protective Gear Question
Post by: tstruyk on December 07, 2009, 09:45:47 PM
Best youre gonna get from these yahoo's...

QuoteWhat do you think? Will this pass tech...
probably not

Quoteor do i have to go get a new friggin helmet?...
Probably

as mentioned you have had everyone from first year racers on up to the top of the CCS food chain chime in on this convo.

you are asking questions that have opinion based answers because unless you hand the helmet to THAT tech inspector on THAT day you are arent going to get anything more definative than that.  Tech can vary from track to track and from day to day... Just ask anyone thats been smacked with a DQ mid season for having "unofficial CCS Yellow" number plates   ::)  As mentioned when someone tries to sneak a subpar piece of equipment through tech they are MORE likely to notice it the second time through.  Those that are notorious for having immaculate machines are scrutinized less, repeat offenders are looked over more thoroughly.  Probably the same for a first year AM trying to get a banged up lid through tech... nothing personal just sayin...

I betcha Rick will be checking my clipons extra tough the next 5 years or so (damn woodcrafts and their bolts on the back of the clip on... thats why friends dont let me work on my own shit!  lol)

Much love to ya Burt!  If I dont see ya at the xmas party sat are you workin the Ho Ho show sunday?  

 
Title: Re: Protective Gear Question
Post by: GSXR RACER MIKE on December 07, 2009, 09:53:01 PM
WOW, this thread evolved from serious into a 'mess with the new guy' thread alot faster than normal!  :spank:
Title: Re: Protective Gear Question
Post by: tug296 on December 07, 2009, 09:58:01 PM
It's simple, the hull has been compromised
Title: Re: Protective Gear Question
Post by: PJ721 on December 07, 2009, 09:58:53 PM
from the HJC web site...

http://www.hjchelmets.com/


HELMET USAGE

Helmet Replacement (All Models)
    
      Although your HJC Helmet is constructed with the best materials available to offer a long-lasting product, it will eventually need to be replaced. Immediately replace your helmet if:

• It has suffered an impact. Your helmet is only designed for ONE impact. An impact may fracture the outer shell or compress the impact absorbing liner. You may not be able to detect this damage. Any impact in a crash or a drop from as low as 4 feet is enough to damage your helmet.

......ya think they are going to say "yea go ahead that helmets fine....." you crash again...sustain a head injury....and oh look HJC said my helmet is fine I'm gonna get them for every cent I can...

racers don't go broke from buying new gear/equipment...we go broke cause it's not ping pong.....

$400 - new helmet....or
$10 - bondo and paint...and

$ 1,000,000 for hospital stay and lifelong rehab due to head injury sustained from crashing in an already damaged helmet...priceless and STUPID
Title: Re: Protective Gear Question
Post by: Knightslugger on December 07, 2009, 10:16:31 PM
you guys make me want to strangle kittens...

it's a scratch.
Title: Re: Protective Gear Question
Post by: motomaniac on December 08, 2009, 02:04:26 AM
Quote from: Knightslugger on December 07, 2009, 10:16:31 PM

it's a scratch.

Guess it sucks to be you then having to buy a new helmet. Over the past 20 years I've been racing I've replaced over 10 helmets, some that had just a scratch.. oh well.. at least I'm still racing.
Title: Re: Protective Gear Question
Post by: Burt Munro on December 08, 2009, 02:31:32 AM
Quote from: tstruyk on December 07, 2009, 09:45:47 PM

      Much love to ya Burt!  If I dont see ya at the xmas party sat are you workin the Ho Ho show sunday?  

 
Gonna have to pass on both.  I've got a swim meet at Mizzou Sat. and Sun.

Give Papa Roach my regards on Sunday!   :cheers:
Title: Re: Protective Gear Question
Post by: HAWK on December 08, 2009, 03:22:49 AM
Quote from: dylanfan53 on December 07, 2009, 08:49:52 PM
...but what if he has xray eyes?  huh?  what about that? 


All right, IF he knows how to use them than I trust his assessment.
Title: Re: Protective Gear Question
Post by: spyderchick on December 08, 2009, 08:42:00 AM
Quote from: Knightslugger on December 07, 2009, 10:16:31 PM
you guys make me want to strangle kittens...

it's a scratch.

You strangle even one kitten and there will be hell to pay...  :err:

Thanks for the entertainment though. Been kinda quiet around here lately.

If you can't afford to replace a helmet after a crash, (even one with a wittle bitty scratch), you can't afford to race.

BTW, you got some nice health insurance? Better check that they cover motorsports...

Yes I'm being particularly obtuse this fine morning.  :biggrin:
Title: Re: Protective Gear Question
Post by: gpz11 on December 08, 2009, 08:47:39 AM
Quote from: Knightslugger on December 07, 2009, 10:16:31 PM
you guys make me want to strangle kittens...

it's a scratch.

Well, it might just be a scratch but because you brought it up, it will probably never pass tech.

Title: Re: Protective Gear Question
Post by: Farmboy on December 08, 2009, 09:04:18 AM
Quote from: tstruyk on December 07, 2009, 09:45:47 PM



 As mentioned when someone tries to sneak a subpar piece of equipment through tech they are MORE likely to notice it the second time through.  Those that are notorious for having immaculate machines are scrutinized less, repeat offenders are looked over more thoroughly.  Probably the same for a first year AM trying to get a banged up lid through tech... nothing personal just sayin...


...and guys who like to argue breeze right through too.

Quote from: Knightslugger on December 07, 2009, 10:16:31 PM
you guys make me want to strangle kittens...

it's a scratch.

Imagine how we feel. I'm irritated enough to stomp on a hamster (and they're about to save our sport!)
Title: Re: Protective Gear Question
Post by: spyderchick on December 08, 2009, 09:07:26 AM
Quote from: Farmboy on December 08, 2009, 09:04:18 AM


Imagine how we feel. I'm irritated enough to stomp on a hamster (and they're about to save our sport!)

Hamsters? HAMSTERS? You must be irritated.  :ahhh:
Title: Re: Protective Gear Question
Post by: Knightslugger on December 08, 2009, 09:14:09 AM
Quote from: spyderchick on December 08, 2009, 08:42:00 AM
You strangle even one kitten and there will be hell to pay...  :err:

Thanks for the entertainment though. Been kinda quiet around here lately.

You're welcome?

QuoteIf you can't afford to replace a helmet after a crash, (even one with a wittle bitty scratch), you can't afford to race.

The question is, why would i even bother replacing it? there's nothing dangerously wrong it. Goes along with what Motomaniac said, he's replaced 10 in 20 years, some just with scratches. If that's all that was wrong with them, i think it foolish to do so (a waste of money) if they were to the degree this one is.

QuoteBTW, you got some nice health insurance? Better check that they cover motorsports...

Yes i do, and yes they do (remember my previous accident? $60,000 to fix. COVERED i paid $1000). i would not even be riding motorcycles without good health insurance. that would be brainless.
Title: Re: Protective Gear Question
Post by: eboos on December 08, 2009, 09:43:07 AM
Quote from: Knightslugger on December 08, 2009, 09:14:09 AM
The question is, why would i even bother replacing it? there's nothing dangerously wrong it. Goes along with what Motomaniac said, he's replaced 10 in 20 years, some just with scratches. If that's all that was wrong with them, i think it foolish to do so (a waste of money) if they were to the degree this one is.

That is the price to pay. I junked a brand new pair of gloves once after one crash. To answer your above question, what if there was more then just scratches wrong with his helmets, but the damage was undetectable? Why take the chance when you can do everything in your power to make sure you are using properly servicable gear?
Title: Re: Protective Gear Question
Post by: spyderchick on December 08, 2009, 09:45:57 AM
You need to update your facebook status.

(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2511/4168606975_5c766610ba_m.jpg)
Title: Re: Protective Gear Question
Post by: DEVINC on December 08, 2009, 10:05:53 AM
Don't strangle any cats! I love cats!

As for your question. I am not a tech inspector. Chances are though, it would not pass in Florida. Probably not in any other region. Like they said, it is the tech inspectors final say. In other words, NO. Don't take the chance of a yes. Chances are slim to none.

The helmet has been compromised. Replace it. It is unsafe. Replace it. I have replaced helmets for less than that. I don't care what you think. Replace it. Get an Arai  :biggrin: . You are wrong. Your helmet is wrong. Get rid of it. Replace the helmet. It is unsafe. Do yourself a favor. It's unsafe. I don't care what you did. How you did it. You helmet was scratched from crashing. Great reason to replace it. If HJC doesn't want to do a test, well then you know not to get one again. Replace your helmet. IT IS UNSAFE...
Title: Re: Protective Gear Question
Post by: Knightslugger on December 08, 2009, 10:15:38 AM
Quote from: eboos on December 08, 2009, 09:43:07 AM
That is the price to pay. I junked a brand new pair of gloves once after one crash. To answer your above question, what if there was more then just scratches wrong with his helmets, but the damage was undetectable? Why take the chance when you can do everything in your power to make sure you are using properly servicable gear?

because the serviceability of this helmet is very high yet. Not as high as brand new, but if you were to put a percentage value subtracted from it's "new" condition, we're talking very low, single digits, probably less. again, it's a very light scratch to the shell and nothing more.

Devinc, what makes you so certain that it's truly unsafe? HJC wont test it because they DON'T do any testing in the first place! No, i am not going to replace a helmet that has but a scratch. compromised? sure. the clear coat got chipped away (OHMYGOSH!) and there's a light scratch to the shell (OHMYGOSH!). Will it protect me when i crash next time?

depends on the crash, doesn't it... but if this one doesn't protect me next time, chances are pretty friggin high that a new one wouldn't have done any better.
Title: Re: Protective Gear Question
Post by: spyderchick on December 08, 2009, 10:18:46 AM
Okay, that's it, drop the kitten and slowly back away...
Title: Re: Protective Gear Question
Post by: Knightslugger on December 08, 2009, 10:23:17 AM
Quote from: spyderchick on December 08, 2009, 10:18:46 AM
Okay, that's it, drop the kitten and slowly back away...

(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_70rJ1ndenM0/SNlhldUTiMI/AAAAAAAAFQI/lTRTCS-Ko9E/s400/the-black-white-kittens.jpg)
Title: Re: Protective Gear Question
Post by: spyderchick on December 08, 2009, 10:24:47 AM

:biggrin:
Title: Re: Protective Gear Question
Post by: alexm on December 08, 2009, 11:42:22 AM
Quote from: Knightslugger on December 07, 2009, 12:26:58 AM
Hello everyone!

I'll be competing in the Amatuer Middleweight classes next year

Haha bingo! That's all you had to say dude...amateur middleweight. Chances are you're going to crash or someone will crash into you. +1 to replace it, like others have mentioned it costs less than a set of tires and it protects your brain.
Title: Re: Protective Gear Question
Post by: Burt Munro on December 08, 2009, 11:53:19 AM
Hey Knightslugger,

Just out of curiosity, what Region will you be racing in?
Title: Re: Protective Gear Question
Post by: DEVINC on December 08, 2009, 12:16:33 PM
Quote from: Knightslugger on December 08, 2009, 10:15:38 AM

Devinc, what makes you so certain that it's truly unsafe?

Quote from: Knightslugger on December 08, 2009, 10:15:38 AM
Devinc, what makes you so certain that it's truly unsafe?

I am certain that it is truly unsafe because I am using my magic powers......  :err: Really though, it is just a risk that is not worth taking. I understand that there may not have been a "hard impact" on the helmet but an impact is an impact. Plus, the picture looks like the outer shell has been affected. Looks like more than a scratch of the "coating." If the outer shell is visibly damaged then all bets are off. Not to mention the damage of the inner foam that you typically can't see. Cut some $ from somewhere else and buy a new helmet. How many concussions have you had? If HJC won't test it then don't buy another HJC. I have seen some pretty cheap AGV solid color helmets out there. Arai can be cheap if you get it at the right place and don't get graphics.

BTW what region are you in. Out of curiousity.

Title: Re: Protective Gear Question
Post by: Knightslugger on December 08, 2009, 12:55:17 PM
Midwest Region

RA
BFR
Topeka... etc.

DevinC, your reply is rather hard to read... but i'll try to respond.

An impact is NOT an impact. there's soft through hard. It's not so black and white. The moment you say compromised, it doesn't go black. it's now a shade of gray. Maybe it's ok, maybe it's not. if it were cut and dried (black and white, however you want to say it) then NO ONE would do re-certification on helmets AND I MEAN NO ONE. The fact of the matter is that there IS re-certification out there, and that means there has to be some gray.

the top coat is Polyurethane. Same stuff on your car. it flakes and lifts off pretty easily. the scraches are from a soft impact into rocky pavement. a few high points on the pavement chipped through the clear coat, and left the over penetration on the shell. VERY LITTLE OVER PENETRATION OCCURRED. the number of scratches also indicate, somewhat, the heft of the impact and duration on the pavement. not very many means not very long. also given that the only places that have clear coat lift are at the scratch sites indicates that the shell did not flex so there's no question the EPS was not a factor in protection. the only thing that got wear from protection was the shell, but wear only and not a deal breaker for me. if the CF was frayed or cut, it'd be a different story. i'm not as cavalier as ya'll make me out to be.

zero concussions.

HJC wont test because they DONT test. if they DID test, but WOULDN'T test, now that's a different story.

I have a replacement on the way from an incredibly awesome friend. Now i have two perfectly crashible helmets
Title: Re: Protective Gear Question
Post by: tstruyk on December 08, 2009, 12:58:53 PM
buy a new helmet...  :lmao:
Title: Re: Protective Gear Question
Post by: spyderchick on December 08, 2009, 01:05:11 PM
Quote from: Knightslugger on December 08, 2009, 12:55:17 PM
Midwest Region

RA
BFR
Topeka... etc.

Well then, Mr. Burt Munro will certainly be making your acquaintance...  :ahhh: :biggrin:
Title: Re: Protective Gear Question
Post by: spyderchick on December 08, 2009, 01:07:58 PM
Quote from: tstruyk on December 08, 2009, 12:58:53 PM
buy a new helmet...  :lmao:

Tim, email (spyder@wi.rr.com) me a list of what was in your box, the packing tape was split!
Title: Re: Protective Gear Question
Post by: tstruyk on December 08, 2009, 01:45:13 PM
Quote from: spyderchick on December 08, 2009, 01:07:58 PM
Tim, email (spyder@wi.rr.com) me a list of what was in your box, the packing tape was split!

one million dollars in small unmarked bills...
Title: Re: Protective Gear Question
Post by: eboos on December 08, 2009, 01:47:05 PM
With all that goes on in a typical race weekend, compounded with having to do the race school to get your license, and all the expenses of the first race weekend (when you realize that you don't have everything that you will need), why would you want to wait til then to find out that you will need to buy a new helmet anyway. Like I said before, just get a second one, and if your first one passes, then you can use that as your spare.
Title: Re: Protective Gear Question
Post by: spyderchick on December 08, 2009, 01:48:19 PM
Quote from: tstruyk on December 08, 2009, 01:45:13 PM
one million dollars in small unmarked bills...

Gone, there were some smelly gloves and leathers left in it's place.

Seriously, How many single gloves did you send?
Title: Re: Protective Gear Question
Post by: Knightslugger on December 08, 2009, 01:51:48 PM
Quote from: eboos on December 08, 2009, 01:47:05 PM
With all that goes on in a typical race weekend, compounded with having to do the race school to get your license, and all the expenses of the first race weekend (when you realize that you don't have everything that you will need), why would you want to wait til then to find out that you will need to buy a new helmet anyway. Like I said before, just get a second one, and if your first one passes, then you can use that as your spare.

instead of just showing up on race day, I thought by asking here first i would preempt that scenario altogether.
Title: Re: Protective Gear Question
Post by: HerbigCBR on December 08, 2009, 01:54:04 PM
Plus it's an HJC...
http://roadracingworld.com/news/article/?article=25781 (http://roadracingworld.com/news/article/?article=25781)
Title: Re: Protective Gear Question
Post by: eboos on December 08, 2009, 01:57:38 PM
Quote from: HerbigCBR on December 08, 2009, 01:54:04 PM
Plus it's an HJC...
http://roadracingworld.com/news/article/?article=25781 (http://roadracingworld.com/news/article/?article=25781)

It's a carbon fiber shelled HJC, not a polycarbonate one.
Title: Re: Protective Gear Question
Post by: tstruyk on December 08, 2009, 02:09:21 PM
Quote from: spyderchick on December 08, 2009, 01:48:19 PM
Gone, there were some smelly gloves and leathers left in it's place.

Seriously, How many single gloves did you send?

do you think those Komodo's will pass tech???   :biggrin:

glove count confirmed via email  :thumb:
Title: Re: Protective Gear Question
Post by: spyderchick on December 08, 2009, 02:17:11 PM
Quote from: tstruyk on December 08, 2009, 02:09:21 PM
do you think those Komodo's will pass tech???   :biggrin:


Yup, they're so holy they will get you into heaven as a matter of fact. (http://www.clicksmilies.com/s1106/engel/angel-smiley-001.gif)  :biggrin:
Title: Re: Protective Gear Question
Post by: tstruyk on December 08, 2009, 02:21:00 PM
do I get to see JESUS H CHRIST?????   :lmao:
Title: Re: Protective Gear Question
Post by: DEVINC on December 08, 2009, 02:29:37 PM
Quote from: Knightslugger on December 08, 2009, 12:55:17 PM


DevinC, your reply is rather hard to read... but i'll try to respond.

An impact is NOT an impact. there's soft through hard. It's not so black and white. The moment you say compromised, it doesn't go black. it's now a shade of gray. Maybe it's ok, maybe it's not. if it were cut and dried (black and white, however you want to say it) then NO ONE would do re-certification on helmets AND I MEAN NO ONE. The fact of the matter is that there IS re-certification out there, and that means there has to be some gray.

the top coat is Polyurethane. Same stuff on your car. it flakes and lifts off pretty easily. the scraches are from a soft impact into rocky pavement. a few high points on the pavement chipped through the clear coat, and left the over penetration on the shell. VERY LITTLE OVER PENETRATION OCCURRED. the number of scratches also indicate, somewhat, the heft of the impact and duration on the pavement. not very many means not very long. also given that the only places that have clear coat lift are at the scratch sites indicates that the shell did not flex so there's no question the EPS was not a factor in protection. the only thing that got wear from protection was the shell, but wear only and not a deal breaker for me. if the CF was frayed or cut, it'd be a different story. i'm not as cavalier as ya'll make me out to be.

zero concussions.

HJC wont test because they DONT test. if they DID test, but WOULDN'T test, now that's a different story.

I have a replacement on the way from an incredibly awesome friend. Now i have two perfectly crashible helmets


I understand you on the black & white. I just think of helmet damage as not so black and white. I understand your frustration because you were there when you crashed. In your mind, all these people are saying it's bad when you know what happened, how that scratch got there, etc. What we are all trying to say is that, we don't care how it got there. You should really replace it. (at least that is what i'm trying to say) Don't skimp on your helmet. Other things may be gray area. Not your helmet. These are all my own opinions. I think HJC won't test your helmet because of the fear of lawsuits because they don't have enough faith in their own product as it is.  Alot of us here would replace it. It's good you got a new helmet. I would buy even another one. Especially since they are HJC's. Those things are cheap. (solids are anyways)

I guess we don't know 100% that your helmet is "bad" due to the seen damage. I know one thing though, it HAS been weakened.
Title: Re: Protective Gear Question
Post by: spyderchick on December 08, 2009, 02:34:10 PM
Quote from: tstruyk on December 08, 2009, 02:21:00 PM
do I get to see JESUS H CHRIST?????   :lmao:

Might meet a flying spaghetti monster.  :ahhh: :lmao:

I personally like how his meatballs have not yet descended...

(http://neatorama.cachefly.net/images/2007-11/happy-holidays-card-flying-spaghetti-monster.gif)
Title: Re: Protective Gear Question
Post by: tstruyk on December 08, 2009, 02:37:23 PM
Quote from: Burt Munro on December 08, 2009, 02:31:32 AM
Gonna have to pass on both.  I've got a swim meet at Mizzou Sat. and Sun.

Give Papa Roach my regards on Sunday!   :cheers:

youre gonna pass on the open bar sat and Breaking Benjamin/Poppa Roach/Sick Puppies sunday to hang out with dudes in Speedos?????
Title: Re: Protective Gear Question
Post by: Knightslugger on December 08, 2009, 03:17:07 PM
Quote from: DEVINC on December 08, 2009, 02:29:37 PM
I think HJC won't test your helmet because of the fear of lawsuits because they don't have enough faith in their own product as it is.

i don't know if that's it or not. Like i said, it a good business practice to tell all your customers to just junk them and buy new one. you sell a lot of helmets, you don't spend very much money in litigation or liability, no testing equipment or extra salaries to pay for, and you help the entire industry stay afloat all at the same time!

In a capitalist society, very few corporations and retailers are actually pro-consumer. they are in it to move product and fill payrolls.

that's what i think anyway.
Title: Re: Protective Gear Question
Post by: roadracer162 on December 08, 2009, 03:39:48 PM
I think you had already had the answer before you asked your question. If you are asking replace it. You can spend $500 on a new helmet or $500,000 in medical bills. The older you get the higher your mortality rate goes up in a head trauma incident.

The structure of the helmet whether the hard shell or the inner EPS is designed hopefully to absorb shock and not transmit it to the werer's head. Your helmet has received some shock even if it is minor in nature. Damage can be seen and sometimes unseen. This damage indicates there was an event which could be minor. There are others that have crashed on better equipment and suffered severe injuries and death.

I would say that the environment of racing is different than a track day only because of your decision to probably, try a little harder to go a little faster. It is reasonable to say that the potential of you crashing will be higher given the circumstance of competition, not to say you won't be smart, stay calm and ride you would a track day.

Does it pass tech? I wouldn't put my stamp on it and take on the liability of your health and well being.

It is your head and your life, you be the judge.

Mark
Title: Re: Protective Gear Question
Post by: eboos on December 08, 2009, 03:41:37 PM
Quote from: Knightslugger on December 08, 2009, 03:17:07 PM
In a capitalist society, very few corporations and retailers are actually pro-consumer. they are in it to move product and fill payrolls.

that's what i think anyway.

This could be a whole 'nother topic. The best companies realize that by being pro-consumer, they can more easily move product and fill payrolls.

Wow, this is more alive then this board has been in months.
Title: Re: Protective Gear Question
Post by: Knightslugger on December 08, 2009, 03:57:04 PM
Quote from: eboos on December 08, 2009, 03:41:37 PM
This could be a whole 'nother topic. The best companies realize that by being pro-consumer, they can more easily move product and fill payrolls.

Yes it could! We're on the same page here. The best companies also sell a premo product, at a premo price. their customer base is smaller but their profit dollars are just about the same as the common names (HJCA for example) for a variety of reasons. lower overhead, fewer employees, etc... But they can't afford to loose their customer base so they expand their customer service (or move in a pro-consumer direction). While they would certainly LIKE to see the unit numbers HJCA enjoys annually, they recognize that they could not possibly do that while keeping their black ink percentage as high as it is. they would produce as many helmets as HJC, but no one would buy them in the quantities HJC does, not at their premo price. They'd soon have to buy a different color pen...

QuoteWow, this is more alive then this board has been in months.

it was not intentional, i assure you. though the best threads on ze webz usually surround beaten to death topics... or controversial ones.
Title: Re: Protective Gear Question
Post by: Farmboy on December 08, 2009, 07:27:23 PM
Why are we so worried about this guy's helmet? He's obviously retarded, so what does it matter if his brain is protected?

Knightslugger, wear your helmet. It's fine. Moreover, I have 3 more "slightly scratched" helmets on the shelf in my garage which I'll sell you for a song when you need a back-up (if you still have cognitive function, that is.)

By the way, what is "Knightslugger"? Like a Dungeons & Dragons thing?
Title: Re: Protective Gear Question
Post by: Knightslugger on December 08, 2009, 07:39:50 PM
no, it was the first two words taken out of a dictionary, if you really must know the etymology of my user name.

at least i'm respectful.
Title: Re: Protective Gear Question
Post by: bwebb43 on December 08, 2009, 07:49:17 PM
I didn't read the whole thread , but from what I did read,  just buy a new Helmet already .
Title: Re: Protective Gear Question
Post by: K3 Chris Onwiler on December 08, 2009, 08:00:00 PM
I had a beautiful Suomy and crashed in it.  This was a bikes hit bikes and we all fell down deal.  The crash wasn't really violent and i got right up.  There was a smudge of rubber on the lid and nothing more.  I wiped the rubber off with my finger and the lid was new again.  I pulled the liner and saw no damage.  Naturally, I continued to use the helmet.  Later, I saw the Suomy tech and asked him to examine it.  He pulled the liner and said, "My God, you're not still wearing this, are you?"

Lesson learned?  I'm not a helmet tech...
Title: Re: Protective Gear Question
Post by: Farmboy on December 08, 2009, 08:03:54 PM
Quote from: Knightslugger on December 08, 2009, 07:39:50 PM
no, it was the first two words taken out of a dictionary, if you really must know the etymology of my user name.

at least i'm respectful.

Ah, so now it's a battle of wits. Be careful, I'm part Sicilian. However, I still don't get it. taken out at random?

So, you're 2 "R"s...  It's not disrespect, but rather, irreverence. Besides, someone as seemingly dumb as you must get this sort of thing all the time. Don't take it the wrong way; you might turn out to be a fun guy. You certainly are a glutton for abuse..
Title: Re: Protective Gear Question
Post by: George_Linhart on December 08, 2009, 08:19:10 PM
Quote from: George_Linhart on December 07, 2009, 10:26:39 AM
With all due respect - if you already made up your mind on this, why bother to ask the question?

We tried to give you advice and guidance, both from a tech inspection perspective as well as from a big picture perspective.  You don't like the answer and dismiss it  because it differs from your belief...  I just don't get the purpose of posting her to start.

Let us know if there is any advice you need where you have not made up your mind and are willing to listen.

Geoge

I've always wanted to quote myself.

I just figure its time to revisit this question from page 1.

George
Title: Re: Protective Gear Question
Post by: Burt Munro on December 08, 2009, 08:21:54 PM
Quote from: eboos on December 08, 2009, 03:41:37 PM
Wow, this is more alive then this board has been in months.
Don'cha just love the off-season!  :thumb:

And Knightslugger, I look forward to meeting you next Spring.  I'll be sure to introduce you to my friend Larry Manor.  He's the Head Tech Inspector for the Midwest Region.  Just about everybody on this board has had the pleasure of having a friendly conversation or two with Larry.  Either in the Midwest Region or at Daytona. Larry's a real 'no grey area' kind of guy so you two should hit it off instantly!   :thumb:    :biggrin:
Title: Re: Protective Gear Question
Post by: gpz11 on December 08, 2009, 08:22:35 PM
So is this crash that you did / didn't damage your helmet in?

http://picasaweb.google.com/humphreycharlesa/BFRIntermediate61009#

I'd just replace the helmet. Use it on the street if you can't get rid of it.
Title: Re: Protective Gear Question
Post by: Burt Munro on December 08, 2009, 08:25:27 PM
Quote from: tstruyk on December 08, 2009, 02:37:23 PM
youre gonna pass on the open bar sat and Breaking Benjamin/Poppa Roach/Sick Puppies sunday to hang out with dudes in Speedos?????
Yeah Timmay, that 12 step program on the Speedos hasn't really helped much yet.   :wah:
Title: Re: Protective Gear Question
Post by: Burt Munro on December 08, 2009, 08:38:54 PM
Quote from: gpz11 on December 08, 2009, 08:22:35 PM
So is this crash that you did / didn't damage your helmet in?

http://picasaweb.google.com/humphreycharlesa/BFRIntermediate61009#

I'd just replace the helmet. Use it on the street if you can't get rid of it.

R'uh R'oh Reorge!   Busted!  :kicknuts:
Title: Re: Protective Gear Question
Post by: Knightslugger on December 08, 2009, 08:44:29 PM
Quote from: gpz11 on December 08, 2009, 08:22:35 PM
So is this crash that you did / didn't damage your helmet in?

http://picasaweb.google.com/humphreycharlesa/BFRIntermediate61009#

I'd just replace the helmet. Use it on the street if you can't get rid of it.

That's the one.
Quote from: Burt Munro on December 08, 2009, 08:21:54 PM
Don'cha just love the off-season!  :thumb:

And Knightslugger, I look forward to meeting you next Spring.  I'll be sure to introduce you to my friend Larry Manor.  He's the Head Tech Inspector for the Midwest Region.  Just about everybody on this board has had the pleasure of having a friendly conversation or two with Larry.  Either in the Midwest Region or at Daytona. Larry's a real 'no grey area' kind of guy so you two should hit it off instantly!   :thumb:    :biggrin:

So basically you're telling me that no matter what i do at this point, you're here to ensure that i will never pass tech? i don't get it.
Quote from: Farmboy on December 08, 2009, 08:03:54 PM
Ah, so now it's a battle of wits. Be careful, I'm part Sicilian. However, I still don't get it. taken out at random?

So, you're 2 "R"s...  It's not disrespect, but rather, irreverence. Besides, someone as seemingly dumb as you must get this sort of thing all the time. Don't take it the wrong way; you might turn out to be a fun guy. You certainly are a glutton for abuse..

yes, at random.
Title: Re: Protective Gear Question
Post by: Burt Munro on December 08, 2009, 08:45:18 PM
(http://lh4.ggpht.com/_RxGbM4X_vCc/SmANQuxZOoI/AAAAAAAAI1E/H0GYtLbPRjk/s640/IMG_8761.JPG)

Just a leeetle beetie get off at Turn 6 huh?
Title: Re: Protective Gear Question
Post by: Knightslugger on December 08, 2009, 08:52:48 PM
Quote from: Burt Munro on December 08, 2009, 08:45:18 PM

Just a leeetle beetie get off at Turn 6 huh?

no i believe i said i had a bad tumble.
Title: Re: Protective Gear Question
Post by: Burt Munro on December 08, 2009, 08:54:21 PM
Quote from: Knightslugger on December 08, 2009, 08:44:29 PM
So basically you're telling me that no matter what i do at this point, you're here to ensure that i will never pass tech? i don't get it.

No, I don't operate that way.  Anyone here that knows me knows that I don't cut corners.   My job is to make sure racers are safe when they go out on the track.  If there is any question as to whether or not something is unsafe I ask for an interpretation from the Head Tech Official.  

If I knowingly stickered your bike/gear as being race ready and it wasn't, and then that questionable safety issue contributed to you or someone else being injured, I would quit.  I wouldn't be able to live with myself.
Title: Re: Protective Gear Question
Post by: Knightslugger on December 08, 2009, 09:12:01 PM
so why all the gloom and doom from the other members, including yourself?

I'm not sure if i should be threatened or what...
Title: Re: Protective Gear Question
Post by: Burt Munro on December 08, 2009, 09:49:30 PM
I wouldn't call it doom and gloom.  To me it's more about being realistic.  Last thing I want to do is to have you show up for a race and get upset because 'that guy on the CCS board told me my helmet was ok.'  I'm not about to give you a definitive answer on a helmet that I've only seen a picture of.

Seriously, since you did that Track Day at Blackhawk I'm guessing you live reasonably close to the track.  Their are a ton of very experienced racers that live in southern Wisconsin and northern Illinois.  Feel free to post up here where you live and I bet I can put you together with an Expert racer who lives near you whose opinion we both could trust.  Or, if you prefer, PM or email me the info and we can keep everyone else out of it.

Me and just about every other Tech guy I've ever worked with has gone out of our way a time or two to help get a guy on the Track - within the rule book.  We are not the enemy!!!

We're about helping people race and enjoy it enough to keep coming back.  The people who work the races know that without racers we don't have races to go to.  We don't get rich working races.  We're there because we enjoy it.  The friendships I have made thru racing are some of the best I've ever made.

I know we got off track from your original intent - whether or not your helmet would pass race Tech.

If you're really interested in getting an unbiased opinion, lets see if we can get you one that will have you ready to pass Tech without any drama or headaches.

Rick
Title: Re: Protective Gear Question
Post by: Knightslugger on December 08, 2009, 09:51:55 PM
Marshfield, WI
Title: Re: Protective Gear Question
Post by: Farmboy on December 08, 2009, 09:52:17 PM
Quote from: Knightslugger on December 08, 2009, 08:44:29 PM
.
yes, at random.


Well gee, I can think of quite a few random word pairings which can also be found in the dictionary. Any takers on this?

KS, by all means, don't let anyone here discourage you from your plans. I don't want to miss out on getting the chance to know you better. you are one funny MF'er!
Title: Re: Protective Gear Question
Post by: Knightslugger on December 08, 2009, 09:55:20 PM
me too, i'm glad my finger didn't land on them paging through the dictionary!

because i told myself whatever fate decides for me is what i'm sticking with.
Title: Re: Protective Gear Question
Post by: Burt Munro on December 08, 2009, 10:02:49 PM
Quote from: Knightslugger on December 08, 2009, 09:51:55 PM
Marshfield, WI
OK, let me work on that.  First thought I had was Jay, one of our Tech guys who lives in Appleton.  Let me see if we can come up with someone closer to you.
Title: Re: Protective Gear Question
Post by: Burt Munro on December 08, 2009, 10:06:47 PM
I like to hang onto Grid sheets from past races.  The Grid sheets usually list hometowns for each of the riders.
Let me see what I can dig up.
Title: Re: Protective Gear Question
Post by: HAWK on December 08, 2009, 10:20:01 PM
Help me out here.

What I seem to remember over the last 8 pages was a whole bunch of people saying that the helmet was suspect and that they would replace it. Oh yeah, and you explaining why of those people were wrong. I just don't seem to have caught the gloom and doom part.
Title: Re: Protective Gear Question
Post by: Team Spalding on December 08, 2009, 10:40:03 PM
Quote from: Burt Munro on December 08, 2009, 08:21:54 PM
Don'cha just love the off-season!  :thumb:

And Knightslugger, I look forward to meeting you next Spring.  I'll be sure to introduce you to my friend Larry Manor.  He's the Head Tech Inspector for the Midwest Region.  Just about everybody on this board has had the pleasure of having a friendly conversation or two with Larry.  Either in the Midwest Region or at Daytona. Larry's a real 'no grey area' kind of guy so you two should hit it off instantly!   :thumb:    :biggrin:
:lmao:
Title: Re: Protective Gear Question
Post by: Knightslugger on December 08, 2009, 10:46:34 PM
Quote from: Burt Munro on December 08, 2009, 10:06:47 PM
I like to hang onto Grid sheets from past races.  The Grid sheets usually list hometowns for each of the riders.
Let me see what I can dig up.

pardon, but a racer isn't going to know the technicals for pass/fail on a helmet. they, like the rest of the racers (and non-racers) here, are going to be using their predetermined opinion regarding helmet replacement. The only person that's going to know just how hard that helmet was hit is going to be ME.

if there was a place where i could send this in to have tested and certified, that would certainly put this whole thing to bed.

if only people would stop talking about the what if's and OHMYGOSH of helmets and actually render some much needed direction to getting THIS HELMET certified or uncertified... but everyone is so hung up on the notion that if it isn't brand new, it's compromised and I should just fork over 500 bones for a new one... instead of getting it test for $20 (or whatever). Besides let's face it, just because another racer tells YOU that they think it's fine doesn't really mean squat come race day. As was said before it's going to come down to the Tech inspector that day, and if all goes as was stated in this thread, the head tech who'd basically going to say no to just about anything presented before him if it's damaged at all. because he's no-grey man.

...and basically shoot my whole season in the ass.
Title: Re: Protective Gear Question
Post by: Knightslugger on December 08, 2009, 10:56:41 PM
that might have come across a little crass. don't take it the wrong way.
Title: Re: Protective Gear Question
Post by: Knightslugger on December 08, 2009, 10:59:11 PM
Gntbldr dragged my ass back home back in June. maybe he or his wife remembers?

at least i have an extra helmet coming... doesn't mean i'm now not going to get raped at tech...
Title: Re: Protective Gear Question
Post by: motomaniac on December 08, 2009, 11:14:14 PM
ok, how about this question.  if the helmet is over five years old, would you replace it even if it has never seen the ground? 

Title: Re: Protective Gear Question
Post by: Knightslugger on December 08, 2009, 11:18:12 PM
Look here mister, i'll ask the questions...! lol

Honestly? probably not. but i don't own a 5 year old helmet, i'd imagine over 5 years the thing would begin to reek like used hockey equipment and i'd want to replace it anyway...

explain to me why i would (or should) consider it. i'll listen. i promise.
Title: Re: Protective Gear Question
Post by: tstruyk on December 08, 2009, 11:20:54 PM
Quote...and basically shoot my whole season in the ass.

if a new helmet is going to shoot your entire season you ought to give some serious thought to re-examining your budget.

Brother you asked for an opinion, RIcks giving you an opportunity to have either:

A:  an actual tech inspector review your helmet IN PERSON
B:  a rider who is seasoned enough (I love it when the mutton is seasoned just right, they're so perky I love them... thats for you Farmboy  :biggrin:) to make the same judgment call, a racer he would trust to make the RIGHT call.  and yes there are some out there that would be able to.

wtf more do you want???

Quote from: Knightslugger on December 08, 2009, 11:18:12 PM
Look here mister, i'll ask the questions...! lol

Honestly? probably not. but i don't own a 5 year old helmet, i'd imagine over 5 years the thing would begin to reek like used hockey equipment and i'd want to replace it anyway...

explain to me why i would (or should) consider it. i'll listen. i promise.

you want the short answer??  lol

because it wont pass tech!   :ass:

and no I'm not kidding

Title: Re: Protective Gear Question
Post by: Knightslugger on December 08, 2009, 11:32:51 PM
and again, where on Earth does it say that it wouldn't pass tech? It's nowhere to be found in the rule book.
Title: Re: Protective Gear Question
Post by: dylanfan53 on December 08, 2009, 11:37:06 PM
God says so...and in tech Larry is God, and you're screwed.  :biggrin:
Title: Re: Protective Gear Question
Post by: Burt Munro on December 08, 2009, 11:41:08 PM
Quote from: Knightslugger on December 08, 2009, 10:59:11 PM
Gntbldr dragged my ass back home back in June. maybe he or his wife remembers?

at least i have an extra helmet coming... doesn't mean i'm now not going to get raped at tech...
You know what - I'm done here.  I really resent that last comment.  I've tried to find a solution to evaluating your helmet for you, but I guess that won't work to your satisfaction.

I wasn't about to try and refer you to an Amateur racer who has 1 season of racing under his belt.  You have some people in Wisconsin who have won numerous National Championships and in the process have probably dealt with as many crashed helmets as the number of years you've been alive.  I'm talking people who any official within CCS would respect and value their opinion.  

And you know what, I know Jim.  Jim and I sat at a Banquet table together a couple of years ago.  I think Jim's got a pretty level head on his shoulders and if he were to tell you something, I'd respect his opinion.

Bottom line, that's what we're talking about here - an opinion, based on experience.   This isn't like putting a bike on a Dyno and getting an imperical HP reading.   We don't have a machine at Tech that we put your helmet into to arrive at a pass/fail decision.

That seems to be what your looking for - black and white data that assures you that your helmet is safe.  That's not going to happen.  You're going to get an opinion based on the condition of your helmet and you know what?  We're going to err on the side of caution.  Maybe your helmet is safe, maybe it isn't .  No one associated with CCS is going to take a chance that you're safety is compromised by letting you go out with a helmet that we think might be unsafe.

So good luck next year.  I truly hope that having a helmet rejected that you already crashed in won't ruin your season.
Title: Re: Protective Gear Question
Post by: Knightslugger on December 08, 2009, 11:50:33 PM
Rick, i'm confused here and that's why i'm so adamant about this thread continuing.

You ARE the tech guy. you ARE the go to person for my questions. i'm getting conflicting information.

first you tell me it's all up to the person at tech that moment i show up

then you tell me that you'd respect the opinion of a seasoned racer - You don't tell me you'd accept that and pass it, but you don't go on to say you wouldn't either.

tell me this! Say it was Jim that i took the helmet to, or any other person you deem respectable. they say it's good. would you then pass it on race day?

QuoteI really resent that last comment.

hey, try getting called retarded and stupid for trying to preempt a technical faux pa before your first season even gets off the ground...
Title: Re: Protective Gear Question
Post by: tstruyk on December 09, 2009, 12:01:45 AM
Oh now youve gone and done it...  :ahhh:

ya know we still love ya Rick, right?  RIGHT?????

Oh and btw when turning into your subdivision by the Dobbs make sure you stop at the flashing red light at 2am especially if youre eatin a taco... just sayin



Quote from: Knightslugger on December 08, 2009, 11:32:51 PM
and again, where on Earth does it say that it wouldn't pass tech? It's nowhere to be found in the rule book.

eh I thought we went to snell 2005... I go through enough helmets its a non issue for me  ::)

Title: Re: Protective Gear Question
Post by: GSXR RACER MIKE on December 09, 2009, 12:13:20 AM
UH-OH the new guy pissed off Rick, I didn't even know that was possible!

  :pop:
Title: Re: Protective Gear Question
Post by: HAWK on December 09, 2009, 01:33:40 AM
Quote from: GSXR RACER MIKE on December 09, 2009, 12:13:20 AM
UH-OH the new guy pissed off Rick, I didn't even know that was possible!

  :pop:

Hey Rick, isn't that one of the ways to join the 10000 smite club?

Among other things......
Title: Re: Protective Gear Question
Post by: spyderchick on December 09, 2009, 08:20:22 AM
Knightslugger, the tech guys in CCS might be ornery, cantankerous, and at times down right frustrating, but, BUT, at the end of the day, they are there to make sure everyone, including the most decorated champion, passes the tech rules.

The thing that the racers here have learned is that if you come to tech with sub par equipment, be it your bike or your gear, you might not be racing that day.

I remember back a few years ago when we were doing Friday practice at Blackhawk. Some guy who had just gotten his license was tooling around on an R1. I looked at his bike and asked him if he had a reinforced case cover. He said nope, what was I talking about? I said that if he would have read the rulebook he would have found out that he needed an aftermarket case cover or some form of reinforcement, like a bar of aluminum because that was a weak spot and could spill oil on the track. I told him we had a drill he could use if he wanted to stop at the hardware store and pick up some metal.

He must have gone home and read the rule book a little further after Larry read him the section pertaining to his machine because he was no where to be seen the next day.

Moral of the story? First, experienced racers know what to expect in tech. Second, read the entire rule book, not just areas that pertain to you. We've all had those pissed off moments at the tech guys that should really be directed at ourselves. Mine was the 'yellow plate' plate issue that wasn't yellow enough for Larry. He didn't stop me from racing, but you can bet I came back the next weekend with a 'yellower' plate.   :biggrin:

Getting back to the scratch on your helmet, I had a nice little mechanical going into turn one. My transmission locked up (And I was a moving chicane back in the day, probably not going very fast), and got sent to the ground pretty abruptly. I didn't get very hurt, and took the brunt of it with both my hands and wrists, which were okay for the most part. Had a scratch on my helmet (Nice AGV, $565 retail) on the left side of the chin/jaw area that was really only cosmetic. Much less than yours. I don't recall hitting my face that hard. 6 months later I lost a molar that was traumatized by that crash.

So here's the deal, understand that most CCS officials are either former racers, or folks who have been involved with racing and motorcycles for a very long time. They have tons of experience you can't even begin to fathom. So when Rick offers to hook you up with an experienced racer in your area (something he doesn't have to do), you say "Thank you sir" and take him up on the offer. Why? Because you will get background on the sport, some valuable safety lessons, and a perspective that is priceless. Oh yeah, you'll have an instant mentor and guy who you can ask those questions you don't necessarily want to ask on a public forum.
I was fortunate enough to hook up with an awesome group when I first started in the late 90's, and I had been a spectator and had friends racing from the mid 80s on! You think I knew it all? Hell no, and I learned a lot! In fact, I know one old school fast guy who still admits he's learning. Probably how he stays fast, he's still humble, too.

If I were you, I'd thank the nice racers here who've tendered their advice, apologize to the nice tech dude, and eat a bit of humble pie. We are all human, none of us know it all. What we do know is how to protect someone who might not know the ropes. We all want racing to grow. You might not know everything, but you have a whole paddock of folk who are willing to teach you. The fact that they want you to stay alive by protecting your head is a good indication of their intent. None of the people giving that advice are here to make any money off of you. Think about that.

Last, be glad you didn't post this on the WERA BBS, because son, we have 3 days here and everyone has been fairly nice. 3 hours after your initial post and you would have been flamed to the hills and eaten by jackals. Probably would have set a page per hour record. They have the same intention, but they won't 'tolerate stupid' as they say. Insult one of their techs and it would have been all over and to add insult to injury, you probably would have insulted an industry insider without knowing it.  :biggrin:

Hope to see you at Anna Maria's next year chomping pizza and listening to post event bench racing. Make sure to thank the corner workers and staff at the end of the day. And remember this is club racing; everyone, (except for a few retired guys in white) has to go to work the next day. ;)
Title: Re: Protective Gear Question
Post by: funsizeracing on December 09, 2009, 08:23:31 AM
Quote from: gpz11 on December 08, 2009, 08:22:35 PM


http://picasaweb.google.com/humphreycharlesa/BFRIntermediate61009#


Who cares about the helmet, your form is horrible!  You really need to work on keeping your toes pointed on the dismount.
Title: Re: Protective Gear Question
Post by: spyderchick on December 09, 2009, 08:25:15 AM
Quote from: funsizeracing on December 09, 2009, 08:23:31 AM
Who cares about the helmet, your form is horrible!  You really need to work on keeping your toes pointed on the dismount.

Spoken like someone who's been there!  :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :thumb:
Title: Re: Protective Gear Question
Post by: DEVINC on December 09, 2009, 09:36:06 AM
That was a very nice way to put things Alexa (three posts up)
Title: Re: Protective Gear Question
Post by: spyderchick on December 09, 2009, 09:41:24 AM
Quote from: DEVINC on December 09, 2009, 09:36:06 AM
That was a very nice way to put things Alexa (three posts up)

I was in a nicer mood this fine AM. :)

Weird, I like the first, pretty snowfall. (we got about 6" last night) By January I'll be sick of it all.  :ahhh:
Title: Re: Protective Gear Question
Post by: eboos on December 09, 2009, 10:11:16 AM
Quote from: spyderchick on December 09, 2009, 08:20:22 AM
Last, be glad you didn't post this on the WERA BBS, because son, we have 3 days here and everyone has been fairly nice. 3 hours after your initial post and you would have been flamed to the hills and eaten by jackals. Probably would have set a page per hour record. They have the same intention, but they won't 'tolerate stupid' as they say. Insult one of their techs and it would have been all over and to add insult to injury, you probably would have insulted an industry insider without knowing it.

Word!
Title: Re: Protective Gear Question
Post by: ScubaSteve on December 09, 2009, 11:25:11 AM
Go spend some time in a rehab center that has head injury's. You'll have no problem replacing that helmet. One thing i'm thankful for after breaking my neck is I didn't get a head injury

then go buy a ARAI i sent plenty of my helmets to them for inspection. I beleive it was only $20.
Title: Re: Protective Gear Question
Post by: Knightslugger on December 09, 2009, 11:29:53 AM
Quote from: funsizeracing on December 09, 2009, 08:23:31 AM
Who cares about the helmet, your form is horrible!  You really need to work on keeping your toes pointed on the dismount.

I wasn't so much concerned about the form of my fall, rather the intense throbbing in my right shoulder.

Alexa, i appreciate the concern. I do have a few mentors that i look to for racing help, and they do race CCS. Unfortunately i don't get to see them very often. i don't have a problem with experience (quite the opposite), i have a problem with people sometimes confusing it with expertise. replacing it on principal is not my idea of a end all solution, especially at the price point of these things. what would make me more than happy is to have it inspected and certified (never to be questioned). HJC doesn't do that, and i don't know who does (I'm looking for guidance on that, it's somewhere on the first or second pages of responses i think). again as i've explained before i'm not about to run out and buy a $500 helmet because everyone, who would do it on principal alone, tells me to. I would do it because it needs to be replaced, because it's broken. "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." is a motto i keep, but so is "Better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it". The helmet isn't broke, in my judgment, so i'm not going to "fix it" with a new one, especially given the damage presented to me. AGAIN unfortunately, even in my good judgment, the decision is not up to me weather or not the helmet is in good service. My opinion is not going to mesh up with 10+ years of concern, hype, word of mouth (this whole thread is a blinding example) lack of re-certification by the industry for whatever reason, and liability insurance lawyers (they just add to the outside influence). 10,000 racers can't be wrong... right? but what if they are (and they could be!)? There was talk about common sense. i believe this is being confused with common PRACTICE. They are not always the same thing! Someone mentioned irreverence. I fit the bill. I am irreverent to not adopting other people's principals thoughtlessly! By no means do i take safety lightly, but i'm also pretty down to earth when it comes to reality. I tend to see things like they are. To my dismay, it doesn't appear that this is going to change in just a few days. It's so ingrained into a rider's mind that it boarders on subconscious reflex, like a hand to a hot burner.

And I don't like that.

I don't want to really get into weather or not your helmet could survive another crash or not. i don't know the specifics as well as you do. in the end it's your decision (as it should be). The molar thing... crazy shit happens in crashes. i realize that. It just goes to show that even a new helmet isn't going to prevent all injury. These CF clear coated helmets are pretty sensitive to display to any amount of trauma. the more damage, the more apparent. more so than any PVC Plastic or fiberglass would. a scratch on a PVC helmet to the degree this one has would make it appear it fell off a table onto a gravel filled road. PVCs enjoy the ability to have a gloss shine without the use of polyurethane, so no lifting. If that's what's freaking ya'll out... well, take that inforamtion, that fact, into consideration. if it were PVC, it would not look like it does. It's encouraging to me to see that some companies are fessing up to the fact that such a drop isn't a good enough reason to replace a helmet though. took long enough...

What's better? Experience based on expertise or expertise based on experience? Common sense, or common practice? Opinion or evidence?

The things i think about from time to time...  :sleeping2:

i've typed for too long. I hope this clarifies how i'm looking at this situation, and not the people involved. i got no beef with any of you. You have your principals, i have mine. let the facts speak for themselves!

:cheers:

Scuba - do they only inspect their own helmets? Otherwise i'll send them an email later... thanks!
Title: Re: Protective Gear Question
Post by: spinblue on December 09, 2009, 11:34:30 AM
The guy is a tool and a troll. Doesn't get it and is going to hurt someone, either himself or someone else.

It is much more than a helmet issue at this point.
Title: Re: Protective Gear Question
Post by: spyderchick on December 09, 2009, 11:38:02 AM
Dude, we need to put you in a room with Super Dave, you guys could talk for days.  :biggrin:
Title: Re: Protective Gear Question
Post by: Knightslugger on December 09, 2009, 11:41:39 AM
I know Dave! Though, he may not remember me so much. left quite an impression on me.

Spinblue, your comments are not appreciated one bit.
Title: Re: Protective Gear Question
Post by: eboos on December 09, 2009, 11:51:02 AM
Quote from: Knightslugger on December 09, 2009, 11:29:53 AM
It's encouraging to me to see that some companies are fessing up to the fact that such a drop isn't a good enough reason to replace a helmet though.

Think about how it happened though. If the helmet simply fell off your bike and chipped the clear coat, then you would probably be right. But that's not how it happened. Your damage happened during a highside, and your head was in the helmet. The EPS liner did compress to decelerate your head. It will need to be replaced.
Title: Re: Protective Gear Question
Post by: DEVINC on December 09, 2009, 11:58:26 AM
Quote from: Knightslugger on December 09, 2009, 11:29:53 AM
i'm not about to run out and buy a $500 helmet

If it's an HJC i sure as hell hope not. Shame on them if they do sell one of their helmets for $500.

I used to be able to get a solid Arai helmet (quantam 2) for like $275 total after tax about a year or two ago. I can still buy them rather cheap, but not that cheap.  :banghead:

+1 Steve for recommending Arai. Even if they wouldn't test them, I still would buy them. They rock!
Title: Re: Protective Gear Question
Post by: mikendzel on December 09, 2009, 12:24:52 PM
Quote from: Knightslugger on December 07, 2009, 12:26:58 AM
What do you think? Will this pass tech or do i have to go get a new friggin helmet?

You asked, people told you (from experience mind you, because no one feels like throwing around $500-$700 for a helmet on a whim, no one) that their opinion was you should replace the helmet if you can not get it inspected.  If you can, more power to you.  You then blew this up into 10 pages of arguing against people who have all been in your very shoes, asked the same questions and resisted spending the money just like you.  In the end we all learned the science and most chose to protect their heads and bought new helmets.

You are now informed that this helmet will most likely NOT pass tech inspection as it sits, as well as not protect your head as well as a new one would.  You can either buy a new one, find some one to inspect and recertify it, or take your chances at tech.  Continuing to argue with people who have already been through this scenario is the action of a person nobody here would trust.  And in that respect, we all put a great deal of trust in one another not to be idiots.
Title: Re: Protective Gear Question
Post by: Eric Kelcher on December 09, 2009, 12:29:38 PM
The gray area you are referring to wanting to know about is theexpeirence level that tech inspectors have acquired over the years both thru training and real world crashes.  Different helmets and different areas of the helemt will have more scrutity then others.

I would recomend finding a helmet company that does post crash inspection so you can haveconfidence that you can or cannot reuse a helmet.

All of the people here want you to have an enjoyable time at the track, being sure you can bench raceat the endof the day makes the racing that much better.  
Title: Re: Protective Gear Question
Post by: Knightslugger on December 09, 2009, 01:08:18 PM
Quote from: mikendzel on December 09, 2009, 12:24:52 PM
You asked, people told you (from experience mind you, because no one feels like throwing around $500-$700 for a helmet on a whim, no one) that their opinion was you should replace the helmet if you can not get it inspected.  If you can, more power to you.  You then blew this up into 10 pages of arguing against people who have all been in your very shoes, asked the same questions and resisted spending the money just like you.  In the end we all learned the science and most chose to protect their heads and bought new helmets.

You are now informed that this helmet will most likely NOT pass tech inspection as it sits, as well as not protect your head as well as a new one would.  You can either buy a new one, find some one to inspect and recertify it, or take your chances at tech.  Continuing to argue with people who have already been through this scenario is the action of a person nobody here would trust.  And in that respect, we all put a great deal of trust in one another not to be idiots.

I didn't blow anything out of proportion, this thread was derailed and redirected at reply #2. Furthermore, i haven't read one reply that says they've been in this very scenario, rather, that they've just skipped it altogether by replacing the helmet outright. i would suspect this is the beginning of forming principal. If I am mistaken on this, please by all means correct me.

Eric, I've been told that it really boils down to the inspector and his opinion at that moment, so there are no firm guidelines or criteria that CCS uses to inspect helmets for soundness and safety for pass/fail. Since that's the case, i'll bring the new replacement, and in leu of getting it checked locally i'll just bring the helmet in question to the track and see where it goes from there. I'll contact Arai to see if they offer any services for other manufactures. so far, it has been the only lead i've been given on recertification.
Title: Re: Protective Gear Question
Post by: eboos on December 09, 2009, 01:35:44 PM
I would highly doubt that they would be willing to recertify another manufacturer's helmet. That would be a liability can of worms that I really don't think any company would open.
Title: Re: Protective Gear Question
Post by: Knightslugger on December 09, 2009, 01:39:03 PM
hey, it's worth a shot... What else do i have to go on? It's this or bring it to the track... Rick's helping though.

i can't find a 'contact us' for Arai!
Title: Re: Protective Gear Question
Post by: ScubaSteve on December 09, 2009, 02:04:03 PM
there's no contact info. you have to fill this out i believe. i doubt they will look at it.

http://www.araiamericas.com/default.aspx?pageid=59#/helmets
Title: Re: Protective Gear Question
Post by: Knightslugger on December 09, 2009, 02:09:21 PM
ohhhhh, it's for helmet registration... basically warranty. that right there says no way.

any other leads?
Title: Re: Protective Gear Question
Post by: DEVINC on December 10, 2009, 04:47:09 PM
It's slow today....


So did you put that HJC to rest yet? Are you gonna display it or throw it in the dumpster?


....... man i'm bored
Title: Re: Protective Gear Question
Post by: Knightslugger on December 10, 2009, 04:56:44 PM
no, not yet. i'm waiting for rick to get back to me.
Title: Re: Protective Gear Question
Post by: Burt Munro on December 10, 2009, 05:34:16 PM
Sorry about that.  I can't think of anyone closer than 100 miles to you whose opinion I would respect.

I really don't think it would make much difference to you anyway - unless they were to tell the helmet was fine to use.

Just go with another helmet and bring your old helmet with you for someone to look at ( might make for an entertaining discussion if nothing else).
Title: Re: Protective Gear Question
Post by: Knightslugger on December 10, 2009, 05:41:07 PM
It would make a difference to me if it made a difference to you! But, that's my plan at this point. bring the replacement, bring the questionable, and see where we go.
Title: Re: Protective Gear Question
Post by: skiandclimb on December 11, 2009, 01:15:20 PM
Quote from: Knightslugger on December 10, 2009, 05:41:07 PM
It would make a difference to me if it made a difference to you! But, that's my plan at this point. bring the replacement, bring the questionable, and see where we go.


And with this..... the heavens parted, a ray of sunshine was brought forth onto the non-believer, and angels sang in unison- Hallelujah!

Peace be with you.
Title: Re: Protective Gear Question
Post by: Knightslugger on December 11, 2009, 01:25:00 PM
Hey, if the HJC passes, i'll be wearing it.

*and just like that, God said, ".......NAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHH!" and it became overcast again...*
Title: Re: Protective Gear Question
Post by: twilkinson3 on December 23, 2009, 06:15:23 PM
Hey Slugger you going racer this year?  Haven't seen/heard from you in a while on the ole 600rr boards heh - happy to see you getting a replacement (there are places today you can get a wonderful shoeii rf-1000 dirt cheap for instance - PM me if yer still local to Milwaukee I can see about hooking you up)

Didn't see this till it made 11 pages and didn't stop to read it all - I have a Shoeii that went into the RA turn 1 rock pit somewhere between 100 and 140 mph, that CF one of yours looks worse.....
Title: Re: Protective Gear Question
Post by: roadracer162 on December 23, 2009, 08:46:29 PM
Quote from: DEVINC on December 09, 2009, 11:58:26 AM
If it's an HJC i sure as hell hope not. Shame on them if they do sell one of their helmets for $500.

I used to be able to get a solid Arai helmet (quantam 2) for like $275 total after tax about a year or two ago. I can still buy them rather cheap, but not that cheap.  :banghead:

+1 Steve for recommending Arai. Even if they wouldn't test them, I still would buy them. They rock!

Cycle Gear has the close-out Quantum2 for $325. I am gonna pick up a couple plain jane solid just to have them. $500? not for me. Arai quantum is plenty good.

Mark
Title: Re: Protective Gear Question
Post by: DEVINC on December 23, 2009, 11:40:58 PM
Quote from: skidMARK on December 23, 2009, 08:46:29 PM
Cycle Gear has the close-out Quantum2 for $325. I am gonna pick up a couple plain jane solid just to have them. $500? not for me. Arai quantum is plenty good.

Mark

:ahhh: :ahhh: :ahhh:

but...... would you want to buy one that was made in 2008? What is your stance on that Mark?
Title: Re: Protective Gear Question
Post by: Knightslugger on December 26, 2009, 03:08:53 AM
Quote from: twilkinson3 on December 23, 2009, 06:15:23 PM
Hey Slugger you going racer this year?  Haven't seen/heard from you in a while on the ole 600rr boards heh - happy to see you getting a replacement (there are places today you can get a wonderful shoeii rf-1000 dirt cheap for instance - PM me if yer still local to Milwaukee I can see about hooking you up)

Didn't see this till it made 11 pages and didn't stop to read it all - I have a Shoeii that went into the RA turn 1 rock pit somewhere between 100 and 140 mph, that CF one of yours looks worse.....

HEY! Yeah still kickin... i didn't hear about your ride through the gravel... i know two corner workers that have had to dig bikes out of there... needless to say, they wont be working that corner again!

the helmet just looks bad. it's the clearcoat that i think makes it look worse than it really is... but we wont go down that ugly road again.
Title: Re: Protective Gear Question
Post by: Doctor on December 27, 2009, 05:43:25 PM
FWIW Charles, that helmet would never go on my head with that kind of damage. I have retired two helmets in 2 years with less damage than that visibly. Price tag on the two of them combined is well over 1000 dollars. The EPS inside was compressed from my head on both of them, with no shell breakage. One of the crashes was at 20 mph. It doesn't take much to kill the lid, but the lid keeps the crash from killing you or at the very least, allowing you to have a new career in napkin folding to look forward to.
Title: Re: Protective Gear Question
Post by: roadracer162 on December 27, 2009, 06:59:35 PM
Quote from: DEVINC on December 23, 2009, 11:40:58 PM
:ahhh: :ahhh: :ahhh:

but...... would you want to buy one that was made in 2008? What is your stance on that Mark?

Well as it is I just got one. Built in 08 but it is still one year old. In my book it still beats a helmet that has been down no matter how new that crashed helmet may be.

Oh..the price for me was $260+

Mark
Title: Re: Protective Gear Question
Post by: Ducmarc on December 27, 2009, 07:49:16 PM
i had to skip about 7 pages of anxiety  with the weekend and all  but if that's the melon your worried about saving in the picture then use it please.  lol.  if your worried about tech get it painted or put your number on it and tech another helmet and ride with it. then when your doing the 100mph slide into the tires you'll have something to contemplate (was i right or was those yokes that don't know shit right )
Title: Re: Protective Gear Question
Post by: Ducmarc on December 27, 2009, 07:52:25 PM
 hey mark can the team manager get a lid for that kinda price too. since he's going to run the run whut you brung old junk race this year?
Title: Re: Protective Gear Question
Post by: Knightslugger on December 28, 2009, 12:05:51 PM
Quote from: Doctor on December 27, 2009, 05:43:25 PM
It doesn't take much to kill the lid

True enough. It doesn't take much, but it does take more a little to kill a lid.