This is a continuation of some posts by Nate and Dawn in a different thread (Twin Sprint - Two Fees?)
Nate asked about how we felt about the Buell XB9R being allowed to compete with the SVs and other bikes in LWSS. I said I hadn't heard about this - that was because the rules I was going by were from the 2003 New Racers guide.
But when I checked the 2003 FUSA rules book, it indeed does appear to allow these bikes - twin cylinder, air cooled, push rod engines up to 1000cc.
Now I don't know about the rest of you, but I've seen that bike race at RA against full race prepped 748s, and pretty much clean up. How in the heck are SVs, with 75 HP or so, supposed to hang with that?
Is there a way to appeal this? Is it a printing error? Or did CCS make the change recently, conciously? And if so, why? They added Thunderbike which is looking pretty much like it was written for Buell. They changed middleweight sportsman so the SV can't compete there. What the heck are they trying to do?
I haven't even had race one on my SV, but based on what I've seen/read so far, it seems to me like the ultimate entry class for new racers - relatively easy to set up, cheap to buy, lots of parts, and competitive. This just doesn't make sense to me.
I race a Duc 944 in the LW classes. I don't qualify for SS cuz I have a custom frame, but I do race LW GP and GT Lights. There is also a guy on a Buell that does fairly well. I just wanted you to know that we both got smoked by a rider on an SV650. I have an obvious hp advantage and my bike is actually lighter than his, but he still whipped my butt. Will he do it all year, hopefully not, as I get faster and faster, but the fact is, he's won the first two rounds of LW GP and got 2nd in GT Lights in the rain at Daytona losing to another SV, and 1st at Homestead (another horsepower friendly track). Quit worrying about everybody else's stuff and get out there and kick some ass. Just my .02.
Wow - well that's encouraging. Thanks for the input - kick some ass...yeah, that's the ticket. ;)
Cool.
Just don't come down here to FL and do it...I like the podium. ;D
Come on guys, this makes perfect sense! It's called progress. A long time ago, the FZR 400 was the dominant bike in all the lightweight classes, the grids were full of them. Some EX500's started to show up once in a while, then Honda introduced the Hawk 650 and things changed a bit, the FZR's finally had a little competition. A few years latter, and Suzuki introduces the SV 650, and all the Hawk owners were sent to mid pack overnight. Anyone who has looked at the grid of the LWSS knows that it's time for a change, it may as well be a SV650 only class.
I little background. I raced a basically stock Hawk for many years, but I couldn't run in LWSS because the damn thing didn't make any power with the stock air box (rules were same for 4's and twins back then). At the end my Hawk was running a whopping 62 HP, and I had to try to keeping up with the LWSB class. Even the LWSS SV650's had an easy 10 HP advantage on me and pulled me on every straight. So I got bored in the middle of the pack, cant catch the fast guys, just fast enough to stay ahead of the slow guys, racing wasn't that much fun any more with no one to dice with. All the Hawks had to dump a ton of money in the bikes (that I didn't have) or they just gave up like I did.
Fast-forward four years, I now have a stock XB9R and want to try the track thing again (kids are older and I have a little more time). So I do what I can to the bike with every available bolt on (meaning none). I modify the muffler and make a whopping 77 HP. It's belt drive, so no gearing options exist, I guess I'll just use 1-4 and forget about 5th gear. I check the classes and it doesn't quality for LWSS. I'm not to interested in mixing it up with the 600's I've seen too many crashes in that class (my bikes new), and I'm an easy 40 hp down on the rest of the 600 field. So I entered LWGP, LWSB, and even though the rules say I can't I enter LWSS too (I was the only bike on the grid that wasn't a SV). Although I never got passed in any corners, I got pulled on the long straights by about half the back. I suspect that some of the LWSS SV's are running around 80 HP or more.
The bottom line, the XB984 is a very good match for the SV's. It's quite a bit heaver in race trim than a SV. Sure it has better suspension than a stock SV, it cost nearly twice as much, and who runs stock suspension on an SV anyway? As far as the XB bikes you've seen race last year in Pro Thunder, almost every one was factory backed and none we running less than 1210 cc's so they wouldn't qualify for LWSS anyway. I agree with MightyDuc Racing, quit worrying about the bikes and learn how to ride better, in my experience competition is the best teacher and the best motivator. Looking forward to having someone to dice with in 03.
Wow, 77 HP? That's it?
Maybe it IS a good match for the SV. This case study makes the rule seem a LOT more fair.
Yes, I understand the progress deal.
Time for a change, though? The FZR had competition from the hawk, but both were competitive for a LONG time. From 1988 to 1998, and then the SV came out in 99. I think the SV should get a few more years before another bike steals the show. I'm ALL for a bike sharing the show, and giving the SV competition, but I'm not a fan of another bike coming in and DOMINATING, even though that's what the SV did.
I guess I'm just worried about LW bikes getting TOO powerful.
Hey, in 1988, 600's made about 80 or so HP.
I know that most SV's in supersport trim, legal, make about 71 to 73HP on a Dynojet dyno.
That Buell doesn't seem to far out. Is the SV lighter?
QuoteWow, 77 HP? That's it?
::) Umm, no - unless the Firebolt specs on the Buell website http://www.buell.com/en_us/products/motorcycles/firebolt/fireboltspecs.asp has a misprint regarding the XB9R:
Engine
Type
Air cooled, Four Stroke, 45 degree V-Twin,
Displacement
984 cc
Bore and Stroke
3.5 x 3.125 in./ 88.9 x 79.38 mm
Compression ratio
10:1
Valve train
OHV, Two valve per cylinder
Fuel delivery
45 mm downdraft DDFI fuel injection
Power
92 HP @ 7200 rpm (SAE J607) Torque
68 ft-lb @ 5500 rpm (SAE J607)
.....etc....
So, yeah, it makes a boatload more power, with not that much more weight, a much beefier frame, better brakes (after they are replaced ;-) etc.
That's all in a 385 lb/175kg package. Getting suspiciously close to 600s in power/wt - don't ya think? I sure don't feel competitive against that.
OOOPS----I just worked something out, though. Since it's an OHV engine (didn't realize that - thought it was a pushrod engine, like all the others before it), it WON'T be legal in LWSS. Phewww... ::)
Oh well - It's still going to be in LWSB, and that's going to kick the SV's butt, I predict.
92 hp.... MAYBE at the crank!
The XB9R has push rods.
The 92 hp is at the crank, 77 at the rear wheel sounds about right.
Having ridden one, SVs are still competitive.
The bikes running with 748s (Hal's bikes) are bigger than 1000cc and have extensive engine work (ISTR the AMA rules allowing some thing like 1300cc).
Websites and factory manuals are usually full of crap. I had a stcok Ducati SS900FE that the book said made 93 hp. I now have this 944, professionally and expensively built for AMA Pro Thunder several years ago, that makes 91 hp on a dyno and is a thousand times faster than that stock FE. Don't believe everything you read. Of course there are only three bikes like mine in existence, or so I'm told by the builder. Thank goodness...I need all the advantage I can get! ;D
QuoteThe XB9R has push rods.
The 92 hp is at the crank, 77 at the rear wheel sounds about right.
Having ridden one, SVs are still competitive.
The bikes running with 748s (Hal's bikes) are bigger than 1000cc and have extensive engine work (ISTR the AMA rules allowing some thing like 1300cc).
Oh - right - OHV=overhead
valve, not cam. So it's a pushrod - and I didn't realize the hp numbers were quoted differently for different manufacturers - or are they all quoted at the crank?
Anyway, guess this horse is about dead, so I'll leave it alone and see what turns up at the track...
thanks for all the clarifications.
Virtually all hp figures are from the crank.
All the dynos I saw at Harley-Davidson (owner of Buell) were crank dynos.
May be an excellent opportunity to get sponsored by the local Harley-Buell shop :)
Nothing those Harley guys would love more than being secure in the knowledge that if Harley really wanted to race, they would kick the @$@#$ out of those Jap rice burners.
No, stop there, that's all they need to know, they won't listen to anything about displacement or anything.
Part time is right. A stock bore XB is not a powerhouse. Their asset is handeling. Any controversy would be based on is it a stock motor. Yes the race teams have been putting 115 on the ground, but that is a SERIOUSLY modified bike with 1350cc that gets a new crankshaft every 2 or 3 races. I think anybody could spot somebody dropping money like that in CCS and what would be the point?
The X1, at 450lbs, was sold as 101hp, reality is, with pipes, K&N, race module and power commander, expect almost 90 at the wheel. The XB is 219cc less displacement.
Has anybody ever argued SV's should be middleweight and GSXR's in lightweight since the SV is a 650. THE CC SIZE IS NOT AT ALL THE ONLY FACTOR.
I think it's the noise that worries the SV riders. I had a guy tell me he went faster than he thought he could because he was being chased by a helicopter the whole race.:) Don't let Buell riders intimidate you with their stuning good looks either, just get out their and try to catch up:)
QuoteHas anybody ever argued SV's should be middleweight and GSXR's in lightweight since the SV is a 650. THE CC SIZE IS NOT AT ALL THE ONLY FACTOR.
Don't remember seeing it recently. But, with all the recreational racers, I'm sure it's been floated around recently....
:D
You don't have to worry about the Buell...just don't be behind them when they explode! ;D
DOH! :o
I feel like a dog at a cat show.
QuoteYou don't have to worry about the Buell...just don't be behind them when they explode! ;D
Don't be behind them period. Followed one for a straightaway and got all kinds of stink on me. ;D Passed him as quick as I could so I could see daylight again. :D
You guys use a total loss electrical system
We use total loss oiling ;D
We are still talking about LWSS with stock XB984 internals, right? The oiling and breathing systems are vastly improved on the XB series bikes vs. the old sportser based engines. They don't leak, burn, or vent any oil even at redline for extended periods (full tank of fuel). Trust me, I know from experience.
I saw the firebolt rocker boxes on a S1 at Daytona and you are right again. BIG improvement. Firebolt heads are supposed to be a big improvement as well. I don't believe firebolts will be a quarter of the problem the Sportster motors were. Buell really went a long way as compared to the X1. Now if I could only pick the right lotto #s.
All it takes is money, right. Oh that's right...Harley spent a TON of cash on the Superbike, but still couldn't win. Must only be the case for most racebikes. ;D
QuoteDon't be behind them period. Followed one for a straightaway and got all kinds of stink on me. ;D Passed him as quick as I could so I could see daylight again. :D
Bermisderfer's buell was spittin oil all over me at Road America. Reminded me of a James Bond gadget. We were in a close battle for second(some super SV was out front) so I didn't dare drop back too far. I kept close so the oil would get all over me instead of the track and my tires. I told you guys I was all about the safety. ::) ::)
Matt
C'mon now, in last years ProThunder (I'm sure somebody will double check this) I think it was 3 of the 8 oil incidents were caused by Ducati's.
Quote I feel like a dog at a cat show.
Someone once told me I looked good in whiskers and a tail. ;D
Unfortunately that was a number of years ago (no I won't say how many) :-/
Dawn :)
QuoteC'mon now, in last years ProThunder (I'm sure somebody will double check this) I think it was 3 of the 8 oil incidents were caused by Ducati's.
I believe you. His wasn't really a mechanical or a failure. Just oil spittin out some tube under the tank on the right side. I think you are supposed to have a catch can for that hose. Fortunately, nothing became of the incident.
I'm not about to start pickin on Buells. As soon as I do, oil will come shooting out of every orifice on my duc to remind me not to poke fun. Damn poetic justice and karma!
Matt
Quote I'm not about to start pickin on Buells. As soon as I do, oil will come shooting out of every orifice on my duc to remind me not to poke fun. Damn poetic justice and karma!
Matt
Good point...I am done picking on the Buells. ;D
I don't know how I started defending them. I'm just glad they came out with the XB. Hopefully we'll all have a season with more traction. I guess I jus love my motorcycle. I don't really care as long as it's all in passing time at work ;D
And that karma thing is true. I guess I'm doomed.