Just purchased 05 R6 and it is my first fuel injected bike. I am planning on doing aftermarked pipe, power commander, air filter, and slide stops.
Here is the discription on from YEC:
Engine control unit (ECU) (Modified)
This parts use to create optimal ignition characteristic for race usage.
The numerical value is changed to match with modified camshafts.
Use this ECU together with the kit wire-harness. The fuel injection in four areas can be adjusted with the standard meter assembly.
Since i am not using the kit cams will there still be a benefit from the ECU and would your recommend it.
Also does anyone know when you need the AIS plug set
These plugs need to be mounted when the AIS (Air Induction System) is removed. Is this normally done when you install aftermarked pipe?
Sorry for stupid question but this my first Yamaha and Fuel injected bike. My last bike was a Kawi xz6r 01.
Thanks for the help.
Nov 826
I"ll give you both the technical and non-technical answers:
Non Technical: It's an ECU with modified settings from OEM that increase performance with different modifications.
Technical:
"Performance ECU's" are ECU's which have been "cracked" in order to rewrite the .bin files of the OS that control fuel, timing, ect. Usually, they will take an ECU, hook it up to a disassembler, and extract the OE files. Then, they use a hex editor to view what the factory file data. After reviewing the factory files, they can dyno tune a bike and modifiy the factory .bin files to "tweak in" the optimal settings with those components on the bike. If the ECU is OTP (one time programmable) then they need to desolder and replace the factory EEPROM with a new one that contains the new .bin files that contain the performance code changes.
Usually, they can just change factory settings a little bit to tweak it in. Or, they can get OEM ECU's that don't contain an OS, and flash their own operating system.
As far as powercommanders, those things do pretty much the same thing, but they jump on the harness and moderate the data that the ECU sends and recieves and changes it as it comes thru to a "performance" setting by calculating what the factory data coming accross is.
Whew....
;)
I'd get a power commander type deal because it's adjustable and if you make any changes, you can upload new .bin files to the powercommander to accomadate your changes. ECU's are usually only good for certain parts and you can't modify the ECU's characteristics.
:)
While I do not have experience with the Yamaha kit ECU, I do with the Suzuki.
I only got the suzuki kit ECU to raise my redline. That is the only reason I purchased it. Some corners, an extra 500 rpm was all the difference.
I used it in conjunction with a Power Commander to remap the fuel injection.
I hope that helps you out.
i currently have 2 very very good R6's.. one is an 03r6, the other is a FUSA championship winning r6. GET the suspension done.. then worry about the motor. The motor is very good outa the box. YEs, all the items your discussing will help, but i have the stock ECU on both and these bike haul ass. Also.. who will be mapping these bikes after all the goodies are in? you could just buy VP U4 fuel and have a 5hp increase with no effort at all as well.. If you do all that, and are going to run race fuel, get the bike mapped to that fuel and after all the stuff is in. The kit ECU will allow you to adjust timing without openin the side case cover, but just run stock timing.. Or, for 60$ get the +4 advancer or an adjustable timing gizmo.. rather than a very expensive kit ECU...
With the kit ECU and a stock harness you can do all of the mapping that you can do with a Power Commander and then some... With the kit ECU and the race harness (which may not be legal in the class you want to run) you have even more adjustability. Take a look at the kit manual, here's a link to the PDF, its the 5th post , the link is 'and Free Dessert' ...
http://www.r6messagenet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=995
BTW, supposedly you can accomplish most of this with the stock ECU, take a look here:
http://www.r6messagenet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15407
HTH,
Dave
Dan actually posted informative and useful information!
Could this be the seventh sign of the apocalypse? :o
QuoteDan actually posted informative and useful information!
Could this be the seventh sign of the apocalypse? :o
Shhhh... you'll ruin my image 8) ;D
Naa. Dan's little girl got a hold of the keyboard. Dan's not that smart ;D
QuoteNaa. Dan's little girl got a hold of the keyboard. Dan's not that smart ;D
:-[ Busted :'(
;) ;D
QuoteWith the kit ECU and a stock harness you can do all of the mapping that you can do with a Power Commander and then some... With the kit ECU and the race harness (which may not be legal in the class you want to run) you have even more adjustability. Take a look at the kit manual, here's a link to the PDF, its the 5th post , the link is 'and Free Dessert' ...
http://www.r6messagenet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=995
BTW, supposedly you can accomplish most of this with the stock ECU, take a look here:
http://www.r6messagenet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15407
HTH,
Dave
Since it's winter time and I'm bored and all, I decided to read all the information that they have in the above links, and review it. So, this is kinda what I came up with.
Yamaha, and whomever builds the ECU for them have set up subroutines for calibration under the factory table files. The subroutines can be "called up" by putting the ECU into a "test mode" state, and using the dash cluster to select the appropriate subroutines. The only problem is that those subroutines more than likely won't necessarily fall within the perimeters you are trying to acheive. See, an OS in an embedded system is considered as "real time operation" where forumlas are calculated on the fly, and all the perimeters are adjusted accordingly. So, that being said, what you would need to actually do is dissassemble the OS, get the appropriate hex editor, and look at all the OS files. Each file is broken down into a "main loop." Each main loop contains different opeartional characteristics of the bike itself. Here's an example of a main loop structure:
Main Loop 1: reads most of the inputs such as Ignition, MAP, TPS etc.
Main Loop 2: engine run state calc, Idle calcs,Inj PW calc
Main Loop 3: fuel pump, electronics opeartion, ect.
So, when disassembling, you need to find the right main loop, and then look at the data in it. For instance, each portion of the air to fuel ratio's is calculated by a math formula. Don't ask me because I have no idea what it is, but to make a change in air to fuel, you would simply change some fo the digits in the formula. Then, you'd reassemble the OS, and reload it in the ECU, and dyno test to see the differences.
One major problem is the multiple checksums that occur with these types of ECU's. You really need to know the assembly languaage of these things, and understand what is what. Then, to top it all of, you can spend 6 months rewriting code, because when you change one file, you have to go back and change all the others. The only time it's beneficial to buy a performance ECU, is when you have the software, knowledge, and equipment to calibrate the entire OS on your own, and be able to do it track side, because if anything changes including enviromental conditions, the result will be different. Also, the ECU "we" have access to on an aftermarket level, really can't offer much flexibility. Change anything on the bike that isn't in the factory calibration, like exhaust pipes, and the bike could be worse. So, the best thing to get is a PowerCommander from DynoJet. This way, if you want to fiddle around with factory calibraitons, attempt to write your own calibration files, and upload them. This way, worse case is you reload the last file you used. Atleast with a PowerCommander you have room to play. With an ECu, you really don't have many options other than what was already programmed in it, unless you know assembly language and have about $5K in equipment to break it down in your garage. Then, if you have about 5 years, once you have it all tweaked in, and then the weather changes, it's time to start all over again. Atleast with the powercommander, you can do trial and error. DynoJet gives you the software and everything you need. ECU's need perfection more or less. Think you can do it? MotoGP has a couple mechanics, and then a couple ENGINEER's for a reason.
Whew....
;)
another thing you could do if you wanted to, is disassemble the subroutines that the factory gives you, and then save the files. Then, modify them accordingly, and load them into a PowerCommander. It can be done. It's alot work, but more than possible. Just a brainfart... :)
Here's what the code would like like once disassebled. I copied this from another source, which willl remain unkown:
eg1b:0002A2A2 MAIN_LOOP_Setup: ; CODE XREF: LOOP_A+1A8p
seg1b:0002A2A2 movem.l d0-d1/a0-a1/a4,-(sp)
seg1b:0002A2A6 move.l #$FFC872,-(sp)
seg1b:0002A2AC moveq #$64,d1 ; 'd'
seg1b:0002A2AE movea.l #MLOOP7loc,a1
seg1b:0002A2B4 move.l #$150,d0
seg1b:0002A2BA movea.l #$FF95C6,a4
seg1b:0002A2C0 movea.l a4,a0
seg1b:0002A2C2 jsr sub_28696
seg1b:0002A2C8 moveq #$50,d0 ; 'P'
seg1b:0002A2CA movea.l #$FF9560,a1
seg1b:0002A2D0 movea.l a4,a0
seg1b:0002A2D2 jsr sub_286FC
seg1b:0002A2D8 move.l #$FFC71C,-(sp)
seg1b:0002A2DE moveq #$5A,d1 ; 'Z'
seg1b:0002A2E0 movea.l #MLOOP6loc,a1
seg1b:0002A2E6 move.l #$156,d0
seg1b:0002A2EC movea.l #$FF95B6,a4
seg1b:0002A2F2 movea.l a4,a0
seg1b:0002A2F4 jsr sub_28696
seg1b:0002A2FA moveq #$10,d0
seg1b:0002A2FC movea.l #$FF955A,a1
seg1b:0002A302 movea.l a4,a0
seg1b:0002A304 jsr sub_286FC
seg1b:0002A30A move.l #$FFC45A,-(sp)
seg1b:0002A310 moveq #$50,d1 ; 'P'
seg1b:0002A312 movea.l #MLOOP5loc,a1
seg1b:0002A318 move.l #$166,d0
seg1b:0002A31E movea.l #$FF95A6,a4
seg1b:0002A324 movea.l a4,a0
seg1b:0002A326 jsr sub_28696
seg1b:0002A32C moveq #8,d0
seg1b:0002A32E movea.l #$FF9554,a1
seg1b:0002A334 movea.l a4,a0
seg1b:0002A336 jsr sub_286FC
seg1b:0002A33C move.l #$FFC5C0,-(sp)
seg1b:0002A342 moveq #$46,d1 ; 'F'
seg1b:0002A344 movea.l #MLOOP4loc,a1
seg1b:0002A34A move.l #$15C,d0
seg1b:0002A350 movea.l #$FF9596,a4
seg1b:0002A356 movea.l a4,a0
seg1b:0002A358 jsr sub_28696
seg1b:0002A35E moveq #4,d0
seg1b:0002A360 movea.l #$FF954E,a1
seg1b:0002A366 movea.l a4,a0
seg1b:0002A368 jsr sub_286FC
seg1b:0002A36E move.l #$FFC136,-(sp)
seg1b:0002A374 moveq #$3C,d1 ; '<'
seg1b:0002A376 movea.l #MLOOP3loc,a1
seg1b:0002A37C move.l #$1AC,d0
seg1b:0002A382 movea.l #$FF9586,a4
seg1b:0002A388 movea.l a4,a0
seg1b:0002A38A jsr sub_28696
seg1b:0002A390 moveq #2,d0
seg1b:0002A392 movea.l #$FF9548,a1
seg1b:0002A398 movea.l a4,a0
seg1b:0002A39A jsr sub_286FC
seg1b:0002A3A0 move.l #$FFC2E2,-(sp)
seg1b:0002A3A6 moveq #$32,d1 ; '2'
seg1b:0002A3A8 movea.l #MLOOP2loc,a1
seg1b:0002A3AE move.l #$178,d0
seg1b:0002A3B4 movea.l #$FF9576,a4
seg1b:0002A3BA movea.l a4,a0
seg1b:0002A3BC jsr sub_28696
seg1b:0002A3C2 moveq #1,d0
seg1b:0002A3C4 movea.l #$FF9542,a1
seg1b:0002A3CA movea.l a4,a0
seg1b:0002A3CC jsr sub_286FC
seg1b:0002A3D2 clr.l (dword_FFFF953C).w
seg1b:0002A3D6 clr.w (word_FFFF9540).w
seg1b:0002A3DA move.l #$FFC9C2,-(sp)
seg1b:0002A3E0 moveq #$A,d1
seg1b:0002A3E2 movea.l #MLOOP1loc,a1
seg1b:0002A3E8 move.l #$136,d0
seg1b:0002A3EE movea.l #$FF9566,a4
seg1b:0002A3F4 movea.l a4,a0
seg1b:0002A3F6 jsr sub_28696
seg1b:0002A3FC movea.l a4,a0
seg1b:0002A3FE jsr sub_2874A
seg1b:0002A404 movem.l (sp)+,d0-d1/a0-a1/a4
seg1b:0002A408 rts
seg1b:0002A408 ; End of function MAIN_LOOP_Setup
seg1b:0002A1DE ; ¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦ S U B R O U T I N E ¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦
seg1b:0002A1DE
seg1b:0002A1DE
seg1b:0002A1DE MLOOP1loc: ; DATA XREF: MAIN_LOOP_Setup+140o
seg1b:0002A1DE move sr,-(sp)
seg1b:0002A1E0 andi #$F8FF,sr
seg1b:0002A1E4 move.l a0,-(sp)
seg1b:0002A1E6
seg1b:0002A1E6 loc_2A1E6: ; CODE XREF: MLOOP1loc+1Aj
seg1b:0002A1E6 movea.l #$FF953C,a0
seg1b:0002A1EC jsr sub_28782
seg1b:0002A1F2 jsr MAIN_LOOP_1
seg1b:0002A1F8 bra.s loc_2A1E6
seg1b:0002A1F8 ; End of function MLOOP1loc
seg1b:0002A1F8
seg1b:0002A1FA
seg1b:0002A1FA ; ¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦ S U B R O U T I N E ¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦
seg1b:0002A1FA
seg1b:0002A1FA
seg1b:0002A1FA MLOOP2loc: ; DATA XREF: MAIN_LOOP_Setup+106o
seg1b:0002A1FA move sr,-(sp)
seg1b:0002A1FC andi #$F8FF,sr
seg1b:0002A200 move.l a0,-(sp)
seg1b:0002A202
seg1b:0002A202 loc_2A202: ; CODE XREF: MLOOP2loc+1Aj
seg1b:0002A202 movea.l #$FF9542,a0
seg1b:0002A208 jsr sub_28782
seg1b:0002A20E jsr MAIN_LOOP_2
seg1b:0002A214 bra.s loc_2A202
seg1b:0002A214 ; End of function MLOOP2loc
seg1b:0002A214
seg1b:0002A216
All you gotta do is figure out what everthing means, and write your own ;D
Give the guy one tiny, backhanded compliment, and he spews forth like an erupting volcano! Try not to get any of that spew on me, OK? Geeze! ;D
OK, I answered this on another page.
Power Commander adds a whole lot of wire. Communication can be an issue.
Had some regular problems with them when I was working with a superbike team.
Did not use anything on my R6 in 2003, Didn't use anything on my GSXR600 in 2001 or 2002.
For 2004, I used the 46i Fuel Injection Module. No laptop necessary, easy to use, and I got the bike to accelerate better, which is my only aim...spend more time trying to get out of corners quick than anything else. Did I mention that it was inexpensive?
Thanks for everyones input. I think I will just stick with the power commander to remap it for the new pipe. And yes i was doing suspension as well. I was just giving a list of engine related mods for the post.
Thanks
QuoteGive the guy one tiny, backhanded compliment, and he spews forth like an erupting volcano! Try not to get any of that spew on me, OK? Geeze! ;D
I think we have a winner for the "caption this" thread that Heather put up !
;D
QuoteSince it's winter time and I'm bored and all, I decided to read all the information that they have in the above links, and review it. So, this is kinda what I came up with.
<snip>
Yada, yada, yada...
<snip>
Whew....
;)
For everything you spewed there is an alternative method that would work within the adjustment parameters allowed by Yamaha with their ECU's. Granted I've never written any engine management software for a motorcycle, the engines I work with push things straight up... But anything that anyone wrote that would require all the crap you spewed just to alter simple control parameters would never be accepted by anyone... Furthermore I actually have an R6 ( '03 and now '05 ) and have used the kit ECU, with and without the kit harness. The Kit ECU can be 're-mapped' just fine using nothing but the stock instrument cluster, I haven't tried the stock ECU so I can't speak to that.
Please, get over yourself...
Dave
QuoteFor everything you spewed there is an alternative method that would work within the adjustment parameters allowed by Yamaha with their ECU's. Granted I've never written any engine management software for a motorcycle, the engines I work with push things straight up... But anything that anyone wrote that would require all the crap you spewed just to alter simple control parameters would never be accepted by anyone... Furthermore I actually have an R6 ( '03 and now '05 ) and have used the kit ECU, with and without the kit harness. The Kit ECU can be 're-mapped' just fine using nothing but the stock instrument cluster, I haven't tried the stock ECU so I can't speak to that.
Please, get over yourself...
Dave
Huh ??? I was answering the question "What will kit ECU do for you?"
As far as kit ECU's, I was trying to explain how "remapping" a ECU like you are doing actually works. Sorry, thought maybe I could help some of you. As far as me not "actually having an R6."
http://www.photoreflect.com/scripts/prsm.dll?eventorder?photo=04RK001U020233&start=0&album=0&adjust=-1
That's me on my 04' R6 at Jennings :)
Sorry, I was just trying to help. ;)
QuoteThe Kit ECU can be 're-mapped' just fine using nothing but the stock instrument cluster, I haven't tried the stock ECU so I can't speak to that.
You're not remapping. You're using the instrument cluster to switch the available subroutines and function calls that are "generic" and are preloaded. If you want to get technical, remapping perimeters of an ECU requires a disassembler, hex editors, a dyno, and alot of time. The preloaded generic subroutines and function calls you are switching are used calibration should the bike run like crap on the default loop file.
;)
I'll state my point out of all the crap I typed.
"Generic" preloaded files available in both kit and OEM ecu's are not going to help as much as a Power Commander. The reason is because you can't change the actual operational characteristics for the files themselves. Those files are written to be "generic" and allow for multiple variables such as exhaust, elevation, ect. Now, if you did you're own "remapping" with either a PowerCommander, or by disassembling an ECU and rewriting your files, you could tweak in your bike 100 times better, and the difference could actually be a few HP. The ECU's don't offer that capability to the average person. The PowerCommander does, and they give you everything you need to do it in the kit except for a dyno.
That was my whole point. ANYTHING you can do with a kit ECU, you can do with a PowerCommander, a USB cable, and a computer on your own, and then tweak it in even further to squeeze out the best operation from your bike. All you need to be is a mechanic that knows how to use a dyno, and know how to use a computer with nothing special.
There's the simple answer to the question asked that started the thread.
:)
QuoteI'll state my point out of all the crap I typed.
<snip>
That was my whole point. ANYTHING you can do with a kit ECU, you can do with a PowerCommander, a USB cable, and a computer on your own, and then tweak it in even further to squeeze out the best operation from your bike. All you need to be is a mechanic that knows how to use a dyno, and know how to use a computer with nothing special.
There's the simple answer to the question asked that started the thread.
:)
So instead of the 'simple' answer you just felt compeled to parade your "superior intellect"....
With respect to the comment that a power commander will do everything a kit ECU will and more, I disagree.
As far as your R6 ownership, have you done either a power commander 're-map' or a kit ECU? Or do you live in the world of 'I think this is how it works' ?
QuoteSo instead of the 'simple' answer you just felt compeled to parade your "superior intellect"....
With respect to the comment that a power commander will do everything a kit ECU will and more, I disagree.
As far as your R6 ownership, have you done either a power commander 're-map' or a kit ECU? Or do you live in the world of 'I think this is how it works' ?
I wasn't trying to parade "superior intellect" and infact most know I'm the biggest dumbass on this BBS. I have no problem admitting it. But, I do know electronics, and I usually explain all my answers should I give one in it's entirety. That's just me.
I did do a powercommander on the R6 but used a DynoJet Supplied file on that bike. I did have a Ducati 748S professionally tuned and calibrated, and the difference from a DynoJet supplied file and the custom mapping was about 2.6 RWHP because everything was calibrated the best it could be. It ended up cost a little over $1K and took 5 hours to do. The problem was on cold days and especially cold mornings, the bike ran like complete and total crap, because it was dialed in during warmer temps. So, later on in the day, the bike would run awesome, but on the way to work at 7 am for example, I had to sit outside and play with the throttle while the bike warmed up or it would stall out. So, professional tuning has advantages and flaws.
On my other Ducati, which was a 749S, it came with a new ECU when I bought the Termi exhaust system. The new ECU and OEM ECU didn't really give any additional HP. It more or less changed the characteristics of the RPM range where power was available. So, that was really a waste of money, considering I paid $2500.00 for a Termi slip on, half pipe, and an ECU.
On my Mille R, my dealer tuned it in his shop, without a dyno, and got more HP out of it with the stock ECU than the "chip" that came with my Akrapovic exhaust.
Trial and Error is all it comes down to.
One thing that you have to remember about kit ECU's is that some engineer wrote the files based on a bunch of presumptions and also wrote it to be "generic" where you bike will still run even with the wrong files selected. Some guy in Europe writes a file for the following:
2005 R6
Arata Full Exhaust
K&N Filter
Now, let's say you add a kit cam later on. If the file wasn't written with the cam already in place, you've deviated from the original tuning file. That being said, sure the cam will still give you a performance increase, and the bike may still run fine or better, but in all reality you may not be taking FULL advantage of the cam, because the bike calibration files weren't written with that part being included.
For instance, you could download a free powercommander file for let's say a Yosh exhaust, and you could have a Arata. You load it up, and it may run fine or better than expected, but if you had it tweaked in for what's actually on the bike, you'd notice a substantial gain.
QuoteI wasn't trying to parade "superior intellect" and infact most know I'm the biggest dumbass on this BBS. I have no problem admitting it. But, I do know electronics, and I usually explain all my answers should I give one in it's entirety. That's just me.
I did do a powercommander on the R6 but used a DynoJet Supplied file on that bike.
<snip> Nobody cares about your Ducati..<snip>
Trial and Error is all it comes down to.
"But, I do know electronics, and I usually explain all my answers should I give one in it's entirety."
In the words of R.P.Feynman : 'If you can't explain it to a freshman, you don't really understand it' ... Your replies on this thread have been nothing more than showmanship, and I think you are very impressed with yourself...
"I did do a powercommander on the R6 but used a DynoJet Supplied file on that bike." ... So basically you have no first hand knowledge of what it takes to tune an R6 using either a Power Commander or the kit ECU...
"Trial and Error is all it comes down to"... You would think that someone with your vast electronics knowledge would be able to do better than the WAG method...
I have a BSEE. I've designed approx. 60-70 different single board computers over the years for different applications. It can be an R6, a Corvette, or a Semi. More or less, it's all pretty much the same difference. An ECU is an ECU. The size of code and functional properties are the difference. Therefore, it being a Yamaha, Suzuki,, R1, R6, or a MotoGP 500, it doesn't matter. You're acting like it makes a difference. It doesn't. Not a single bit. The only difference is the OS in the ECU. I'd bet that you could take an R6 ECU, and and R1 ECU and they are the same thing except for the files inside of it. That's what happens in mass manufacturing.
As far as "showing off," I'm not. I'm trying to help on a subject I am very familiar with, and have experiance in. Do you want real answers, or do you want "consumer answers" where you get a bunch of B.S. If you want consumer answers, call the manufacturer and ask one of the sales reps, and he'll sugarcote the whole thing and tell you all kinds of B.S. If you want the real answer, I'll be more than happy to provide it if I know it. Mechanically, I'm an idiot. I've stated that over and over. Electronically I know what I'm doing. If I can help, I'll be more than happy. If I can't, I won't answer the question. Like I said, if you want B.S., call the sales reps. that will tell you it'll give you 30 RWHP and such. If you want to know what you're really dealing with and what you're going to get, ask the people that know.
;)
Quote"Trial and Error is all it comes down to"... You would think that someone with your vast electronics knowledge would be able to do better than the WAG method...
Uhm.. that's reality. You do understand that even the smallest change in enviromental factors such as air temp. completely changes operational characteristics of the bike right? That's why it's trail and error. You have to deal with factors that are beyond your control. There is no way to make it perfect. It's just like gearing. Do you run the same gearing at every single race track, or do you change sprockets based on the track? I don't. I use the same sprockets everywhere because I'm not fast enough for it to make a difference. For some people, sprockets make a difference when it comes to where they stand on the podium.
According to DynoJet, with a power commander you can alter the A/F ration in the low, mid and upper rpm ranges...
According to the Yamaha kit manual, with the kit ECU, you can chose between multiple 'maps', alter the ignition timing from +6 degrees to -6 degrees from stock in 2 degree incroments, alter the A/F ratio at 25% throttle beloww 3000 rpm, alter the A/F ratio at 25% throttle above 3000 rpm, alter the A/F ratio between 25% and 90% throttle, and alter the A/F ratio above 90% throttle.
So according to Dan... Yamaha is full of shit?
No, Yamaha is not full of it. They're product allows you to adjust per the perimeters they have written.
The powercommander adjusts based on the FILE you upload which they call maps. If you look at the available maps that they offer for an 05 R6 here http://www.powercommander.com/415-411.shtml you'll see what someone has already written. Now, you can write your own if you want. They provide the software to do it. Therefore, the powercommander is infinetly tuneable because you can write your own custom map.
The Yamaha ECU only offers you the different options of selecting what has been written by them. You can't change the actual map. You can only select between the one's they offer. The powercommander allows you to write your own.
For instance, a good way to start with the powercommander would be to download the ZERO MAP. Then, put the bike on the dyno, and start making adjustments and see the results and then when you're happy, save that map. You could technically do that at the race track for every single track out there and save each map and label it for the track.
With the Yamaha ECU, you have option 1, 2, 3, 4 and you can only select those options, not change them. Sure, one option may work better than another, but that's it. You can't tweak it the way you can a powercommander map.
The reason they give you a zero map for the bikes with a powercomander is so you have a starting point to customize the tune from. Therefore, you have alot more options with a powercommander as opposed to an ECU that only allows you to select 4 different maps that you can't fine tune.
Quote<snip>
With the Yamaha ECU, you have option 1, 2, 3, 4 and you can only select those options, not change them. Sure, one option may work better than another, but that's it. You can't tweak it the way you can a powercommander map.
The reason they give you a zero map for the bikes with a powercomander is so you have a starting point to customize the tune from. Therefore, you have alot more options with a powercommander as opposed to an ECU that only allows you to select 4 different maps that you can't fine tune.
"With the Yamaha ECU, you have option 1, 2, 3, 4 and you can only select those options, not change them."
That's the whole point, according to Yamaha, you _can_ change them, you can richen and lean within those 4 zones/protocols, as well as alter the timing...
Quote"With the Yamaha ECU, you have option 1, 2, 3, 4 and you can only select those options, not change them."
That's the whole point, according to Yamaha, you _can_ change them, you can richen and lean within those 4 zones/protocols, as well as alter the timing...
And my point is that even though you can alter, you can't do it as much as you can with a powercommander.
For instance, let's say with Yamaha you can go up 1. With a powercommander, you can go up 0.01 which means it offers better tuneability.
QuoteAnd my point is that even though you can alter, you can't do it as much as you can with a powercommander.
For instance, let's say with Yamaha you can go up 1. With a powercommander, you can go up 0.01 which means it offers better tuneability.
Do you _know_ that to be the case?
Besides, when you said:
" You're not remapping. You're using the instrument cluster to switch the available subroutines and function calls that are "generic" and are preloaded. If you want to get technical, remapping perimeters of an ECU requires a disassembler, hex editors, a dyno, and alot of time. The preloaded generic subroutines and function calls you are switching are used calibration should the bike run like crap on the default loop file."
it sounds to me that you are stating that you have a choice of 'map' but _cannot_ alter individual parameters within the 'map'... Have you changed your position?
The PC certainly has some tuneability...
But not much.
The R6 is pretty cool inside the "box". Stuff can be done. Individual cylinders, etc. Things that can't be done on the PC.
QuoteIf you want to get technical, remapping perimeters...
Actually, if you
really want to get technical, it's
parameters not
perimeters. Unless you're altering the physical boundaries of the ECU. Sorry, just couldn't take it any more.
'Ya know, if you want to git "technical" 'n all...
QuoteDo you _know_ that to be the case?
it sounds to me that you are stating that you have a choice of 'map' but _cannot_ alter individual parameters within the 'map'... Have you changed your position?
Alright, let's go over this again. With Yamaha's kit ECU, you can do the following:
Switch Program's (main loops)
Adjust the program to an extent (subroutine for that program specifically)
So, you can adjust the main program thru the subrutines they allow (program adjustments) but there is only so far you can go either way. For an example, let's say it's
-1, -2, -3, -4
0 1, 2, 3, 4
So, 0 is the default. Then you can go plus or minus 4, so you have 8 total different settings, or subroutines from the default.
With a power commander, you can choose if it's 8, 650, or 1 million. It really comes down to the file size itself.
You can calculate speed with the following math equation dist = sqrt( (x1-x0)^2 + (y1-y0)^2 + (z1-z0)^2 )
Then, you can have it calculated and lets say it's 124.332 miles per hour. So, at 124.332 miles per hour, the bike misfires in 6th gear at 14,540 RPM.
What do you do?
You have 8 total options other than default on the ECU. On a power commander, you can keep making adjustments all day and night until you get where you are happy.
Get what I'm saying yet?
With the right knowledge and tools (mechanic and dyno) you can tweak in your powercommander because YOU can write the file itself thru a graphical PC based software.
With the ECU, you CAN'T write software. You can only select from what options they give you, and if what you need isn't in one of the settings, or the setting doesn't work right, you're screwed. You have no option other than to completely rewrite the OS of the ECU.
Now, that being said, the powercommander offers more either way. For instance, see the "Graves" files on the 2005 R6? See how it shows what parts were on that bike during that tune? Chances are, someone from Graves or a professional mechanic tuned that file. Technically, it could work if you were running Yosh, and it could be fine. But, the file was to maximize performace with Graves. Do you have any selectability with the ECU as to what exhaust you have? Nope, you have 8 different choices on settings for each perimeter. If the setting doesn't adjust as far as you need it to be for your bike, it's worthless.
The ECU offers less selectability to you because you can't go any further than their programs allow. Let's say you need to be at -7 timing. What if the ECU only allows -6.
I don't know crap about mechanical issues or timing. It's just an example.
Alright, let's go over this again.
>I'd rather not... but hey, I'll be yor huckleberry...
With Yamaha's kit ECU, you can do the following:
Switch Program's (main loops)
Adjust the program to an extent (subroutine for that program specifically)
> pure conjecture here...
So, you can adjust the main program thru the subrutines they allow (program adjustments) but there is only so far you can go either way. For an example, let's say it's
-1, -2, -3, -4 0 1, 2, 3, 4
So, 0 is the default. Then you can go plus or minus 4, so you have 8 total different settings, or subroutines from the default.
With a power commander, you can choose if it's 8, 650, or 1 million. It really comes down to the file size itself.
> No, you're limited by the frequency as to the available injector pulse width...
You can calculate speed with the following math equation dist = sqrt( (x1-x0)^2 + (y1-y0)^2 + (z1-z0)^2 )
Then, you can have it calculated and lets say it's 124.332 miles per hour. So, at 124.332 miles per hour, the bike misfires in 6th gear at 14,540 RPM.
> another gratutious use of irrelevant techno-bable...
What do you do?
>Obviously not what you'd do...
You have 8 total options other than default on the ECU. On a power commander, you can keep making adjustments all day and night until you get where you are happy.
> a million choices at 4 possible outcomes doesn't make _me_ happy...
Get what I'm saying yet?
> Sure, i've heard BS before...
With the right knowledge and tools (mechanic and dyno) you can tweak in your powercommander because YOU can write the file itself thru a graphical PC based software.
>No, you can alter the injector pulse width per rpm, you cannot alter the timing nor can you reference the throttle position...
With the ECU, you CAN'T write software. You can only select from what options they give you, and if what you need isn't in one of the settings, or the setting doesn't work right, you're screwed.
>So what was the point of that diatribe at the begining of this thread? Oh, that's right, you were 'helping'...
You have no option other than to completely rewrite the OS of the ECU.
> You first...
Now, that being said, the powercommander offers more either way. For instance, see the "Graves" files on the 2005 R6? See how it shows what parts were on that bike during that tune? Chances are, someone from Graves or a professional mechanic tuned that file. Technically, it could work if you were running Yosh, and it could be fine. But, the file was to maximize performace with Graves. Do you have any selectability with the ECU as to what exhaust you have? Nope, you have 8 different choices on settings for each perimeter. If the setting doesn't adjust as far as you need it to be for your bike, it's worthless.
> First off, you don't know how many parameters there are... Second off, the ECU/Power Commander doesn't know squat about the brand of pipe, the only thing important here is the amount of adjustability offered...
The ECU offers less selectability to you because you can't go any further than their programs allow. Let's say you need to be at -7 timing. What if the ECU only allows -6.
> Given that the Power Commander doesn't alter the timing, this point is moot...
I don't know crap about mechanical issues or timing.
> Finally, a point I can agree with... And I would add that you know nothing about the performance or tunability of Yamaha's kit ECU or the Power Commander for that matter...
I don't have the Yami ECU...
I know someone that does.
As I understand it, he can make several maps. And then he can switch them virtually immediately. 1, 2, 3.
So, if you're running in a class that allows you 100HP on a Factory dyno...you can use number 1. No rules for HP, use number 2. Maybe you have another map that's for the rain that makes power differently to get out of corners.
Yamaha has the ability to change the stock program by jumping a wire...you can then get in to specific tuning...even each cylinder.
I haven't seen the PC's as the ultimate end all. They have limitations...but sponsorship puts them on bikes in the AMA and then they get used at the club level.
QuoteWith the right knowledge and tools (mechanic and dyno) you can tweak in your powercommander because YOU can write the file itself thru a graphical PC based software.
With the ECU, you CAN'T write software. You can only select from what options they give you, and if what you need isn't in one of the settings, or the setting doesn't work right, you're screwed. You have no option other than to completely rewrite the OS of the ECU.
To be clear: You can't "write software" with either tool. The
software is written. In either case, your're making offsets to the ECU calibration values already in place. PC does it inline with the injectors themselves, Kit ECU does it internally and puts the adjusted signal out via its drivers. In both cases, you're limited to what the software allows you to change.
For a self-proclaimed "expert," you aren't very clear (nor accurate) in your posts.
And - it's
parameters. If you're changing the
perimeters of the ECU, you bettah have a torch and a bitchin' set of tools, Skippy.
It'll be a minute for my replies. I started typing, and closed the browser half way thru >:(
;D
Read "Developing an Engine Control System" in Circuit Cellar INK, issues 62, 63 and 64. Ed Lansinger wrote a very detailed article on reprogramming an ECU for an FZR 600.
Hi Frank :)
I decided to type it all out in word and then copy and paste it so I don't lose it again ;D