Got my CCS newsletter yesterday, and to my amazement- there was a blurb about possible reclassification for our beloved desmoquattros in it! I know a bunch of you have been talking with the powers that be about getting the 748 into LW classes, and a few of us 916/996 folks asking for similar reclassification. It seems as though CCS was listening!
I have sent off a few letters to Kevin Elliott over the summer about this. Not with the typical bitching/complaining attitude, but just some facts. I truly hope this goes through! I know that with the new Ducati hotness (848, 1098, 1198 etc) our old desmoquattros have been outclassed. The same new hotness stuff has also opened up the older quattro bikes as great club racing tools...I think we'll see more 748/916/996's on the track now! Its nice to know that the rules committee is giving the idea a fair shot at reclassification.
Anywho- my thanks to all my fellow Ducati racers, who have spent their time sending in e-mails, letters, etc. And also to Kevin for being open to the idea. :thumb: :cheers:
Heres's to 2010...and hopefully being able to run something other than just Supertwins! (Thunderbike, anyone? :thumb:)
-Ski
I've been against the idea in the past, however I might warm up to it. Now, instead of running my 305lb/115 hp 1000ds based bike, I can build a 310lb/130hp 748r based bike for gtl and lwgp...sweet!
Be careful what you wish for, you just might get it!
yeah just great now my secret weapon is not so secret anymore . good thng i got plenty of parts to keep us running in more than 2 races a weekend and mark you need to drink some anti aging tea and get on a diet for this one
Quote from: 123user on September 16, 2009, 12:01:50 PM
I've been against the idea in the past, however I might warm up to it. Now, instead of running my 305lb/115 hp 1000ds based bike, I can build a 310lb/130hp 748r based bike for gtl and lwgp...sweet!
Be careful what you wish for, you just might get it!
Exactly, thats what ive been saying the whole time. Just because you dont know how to build a fast bike doesnt mean you should be allowed to run down a class. Becuase someone out there, actually can build a fast bike and is going to blow classes wide open. Chris, If your 996/8 is going to be allowed in thunderbike then our 160 hp 999 should be allowed in too. Youre bike is 10 years old, buy a new one if you want to be competitive. Honestly, all of the slower guys I know on older ducs are going to get whooped just as bad in LW and Thunderbike as they would in B/750/HW. Why does it matter, if youre just out there for fun why should your bike be put in with lower class motorcycles?
Uh, I don't think anyone is talking about letting the 998 into LW.
The proposed change is to allow 748 into LW SB, GP, and GTL.
Also to allow the 916/996 into MW.
The 998/999/1098/1198 would remain unchanged, as well as the 749/848.
I know this has been beaten to death but the bottom line is that in club racing it gets done all the time. Look at the SV going to ULSB as an example. I don't think that is going to "blow the class wide open" but it will allow alot more competition.
These older bikes can be had for pretty cheap which makes the barrier to entry pretty low- isn't that a good thing for club racing?
Sorry, but I haven't seen to many "cheap" 748r's floating around on craig's list.
Quote from: Gino230 on September 19, 2009, 01:09:51 PM
Uh, I don't think anyone is talking about letting the 998 into LW.
The proposed change is to allow 748 into LW SB, GP, and GTL.
Also to allow the 916/996 into MW.
The 998/999/1098/1198 would remain unchanged, as well as the 749/848.
I know this has been beaten to death but the bottom line is that in club racing it gets done all the time. Look at the SV going to ULSB as an example. I don't think that is going to "blow the class wide open" but it will allow alot more competition.
These older bikes can be had for pretty cheap which makes the barrier to entry pretty low- isn't that a good thing for club racing?
Its totally different. The SVs were moved down a class because newer faster bikes that cant/arent categorized as mw bikes were just too much for y some whinny ass SV riders. Much like the old RZ then FZR. The were moved into a non existant class where there was no current competition and essentially no entries. The old ducatis are already classified as what they are HW and up for the big bikes and MW for the little ones.
998s are awfully close to 996s. and 999s are awfully close to 998s. If your 996 is let in why not my 999R? If 748s are let into LW you ARE going to have someone show up with a 140 hp 330 pound 748 and its going to suck for everybody. Thats how racing works, you race to see who is fastest on the best bikes, not how long can I hold onto a bike until it can run against much slower motorcycles. You guys have plenty of races to run in, run them.
The barrier for entry is as low as it could be right now. You can get yourself a serious bike for 3000 bucks and go win races. That wont be the case if faster and faster bikes keep being let into LW. Are you suggesting racers start on a ducati instead of an SV or GP bike? I would say that it couldnt be further from the truth saying its good for club racing. For a long time you could have won LW races with talent no matter what bikes you were on. Ive seen plenty of people run with Ed on bikes that arent half of what his is becuase they were young, dumb, and talented. It will be a shame for a talented kid to get beat down everyweekend on his nice SS SV because he is competing against a far superior motor and chassis.
Just for the record Ben, who whined, eh sorry, wanted the SV moved to ULW?
Quote from: HAWK on September 19, 2009, 05:26:39 PM
Just for the record Ben, who whined, eh sorry, wanted the SV moved to ULW?
ehh not sure, it was mostly just a joking stab because im a whinny ass SV rider.
I'm with Ben on this one... unless he can squeeze a solid reliable 120 HP outta my SV...
Just because its more expensive and less "lilkely" that someone will build one doesnt make it right... I seem to recall the SE guys up in arms about allowing one of the big bore ducs in some classes as guys down there will throw down the cash to put em together.
Noone held a gun to anyone's head to buy the machine they are on... if thats what you wanna race, then race it. But just because you cant make it compete in the class it was designed for doesnt mean we should all compensate for its inadequacies.
eh, but I'm just another whinny SV racer...
of course it would be cool to dust one off...
I've always run light wt and maybe I'm part of the problem but it seems the light wt classes are starting to get out of control .120hp in light wt seems an oxymoron. in a way I'd like to see more competitive classes for the old 748 but then it completely obsoletes my old 900 there's not even a ahrma class for it. maybe one extra class for it like light wt GP. still changing vintage to a 10yr old rule would give us and some older 4cyl bikes a place to run and gino what are you going to run your 1000 in? i'm changing my name to waffle
If the 748 goes lightweight shouldn't the other middleweights of similar vintage (that are also uncompetitive with the current hotness in the land of the 600cc4) go with it?
That was my argument about moving the SV to ULW. It was the opening of the floodgates. You let in one bike that should really be in MW and then all the other MW bikes want in too.
Yes, time and technology march on but I'm sorry 130HP has no business in LW.
you may be right paul now it's not lightwt it's old middlewt. i really never expected them to change the whole light wt status, just hoped to pickup a third race 2 for the young guys. but in our division we have a few guys with deep pockets . they are good guy's but they still have the might to win. yeah i know buy a new bike but bimota 1100cc plus all carbon latest gas charged forks and as many new tires as needed during a race plus a really good smooth rider kinda kills all the lightwt classes. me and markie feel like the talaban fighting the marine corps. we come out with a new RPG and they show up with an A10 .
Here we go again! The "whiny" sv rider comment is absolutely true. In the last 2 years, I've read post after post about how the dual spark ducatis were unfairly classed in lightweight. CCS killed two birds with one stone by allowing them in ultralight (at the expense of the other bikes in UL) SV's were given a new class to dominate (if they so wished) and CCS didn't have to kill off the class. In hindsight, they should've just killed the class.
The argument about bringing more bikes/riders into a class by throwing a older (faster) machine into the mix is complete crap. If you have a 15 year old bike or something that is otherwise uncompetetive in its designated class, then just deal with it! Buy something else! The Buells and Ducati's in lightweight are very dominate, however the SV is not so far off as to make it impossible to compete. Adding the 748 raises the mean considerably. Right now, if you average the HP out between the SV, Buell, Ducati, Bimota, 650R, NCR... you're looking at about 80hp for SS and 95hp for SB. Add the 748, and you've increased it to about 90 and 105, respectively. The SV crowd is perfectly capable of complaining without any help... this will only make them more vocal- and I'm sick of it!
On the other hand, my 1000ds is ready for a teardown. I'd be perfectly willing to build a 748 LWGP machine instead. I can feel the love already, instead being at 150 mph down the back straight at RA, I could be at 160mph... I'm getting butterflies!! 'Cause 130hp is lightweight....Right???
ah the 1100 bimota dynoed at 120 my 748 dynoed at 119 i think i can find a couple more to about 122 or 3 but to get to 130 i would probbaly have to have a 853 kit which could be considered cheating plus i've never seen a 330lb 748 maybe 380. but what you get is a real chasiss which is half the battle the bimota's has a pretty good chassis and is light coupled with ttx shock and 20k worth of forks makes it hard to beat i've got about 10k in my ebay assy. job with a lot of chris boy corse parts his makes 130 and i know what's in it . i really don't think the average racer has the wallet and the stomach to race a 120hp 748 i bet half way through next year there will only be 5 or 6 good running 748's out there anyway.
You coming to BHF this weekend Scott?
No Paul, I've already got the bike torn down... super-secret non-aluminum, non-steel frame project is underway. Expecting a wet weight of about 295lbs for next year.
wabbit season......
I've got to say that I have some mixed feelings on letting the 748 into the LW class.
On one hand, with a good rider on board the 748's do very well in Thunderbike which is really the only class they are legal for and just not all that many show up. Basically, if there are not that many well prepared and capable 748's out there than it really won't make a big difference either in grid size or competitiveness of the LW field as it exists today. I like to see deeper fields and different bikes so I can see that maybe its not such an outragious idea.
On the other hand, if you make them legal I could see a bunch of well built 748's coming out of the woodwork. It wouldn't be any more expensive to build a very good 748 than the cost of any other superbike in the LW class (although maintenance would be a bit more if built to real RS spec.). There are also a lot of knowledge on the set-up and mods that really can make them fast - some parts might be difficult to find but could be found or fabricated without too much problem. And while I don't mind racing them in Thunderbike, I always keep in mind that this is the old Heavyweight Sportmans class (an eclectic combo of new and old bikes) and that on a LW bike I am theoretically stepping up a class.
I have seen how fast the Chris Boy 748RS is going down to T-5 at Road America and it was insane. You can also see that Matt Carr from Ducati of Indianapolis used his 748R to beat Joel Spaulding at the Mid-Ohio races, winning Thunderbike against Joel's XB12 (after serving a stop and go penalty for jumping the start) and in supertwins against Joel's 1125R which nobody would argue is a LW class bike... Just on its face the outright potential of a 748R/RS is way superior to anything on the LW grids and it could be a game changer so on that front it could be a very bad idea.
In the end, I am a big believer that we shouldn't dilute the class structure by trying to performance index non-competitive older bikes into lower classes. If your bike is no longer competitive in its class, buy one that is or shut up and just go out and ride - don't try and argue that you should be allowed to "bump-down" a class. On this basis - it woudl be a very bad precedent being set if this happens. Next thing you know we are going to have guys on 2004/2005 Yamaha R6's saying that since they are not as competitive in the MW feild anymore that they should be in LW too.
George
Can I run my 12 yr old YZF750R in ULGP then?:biggrin:
Uhhhh... Rob that would be racing UP a class, no problem.
George, you had better be careful or you will be branded with the circle whiney SV mark which would clash terribly with that pretty bike of yours. Will you be at BHF this weekend?
Paul - no whining in my post. I actually enjoy racing against the 748s in Thunderbike.
Yes - the family will be at BHF this weekend. The bike is already loaded in the trailer.
George
Great, I get to go duc hunting after all.
Looking forward to racing with you again.
Quote from: Ducmarc on September 20, 2009, 07:09:40 PM
ah the 1100 bimota dynoed at 120 my 748 dynoed at 119 i think i can find a couple more to about 122 or 3 but to get to 130 i would probbaly have to have a 853 kit which could be considered cheating plus i've never seen a 330lb 748 maybe 380. but what you get is a real chasiss which is half the battle the bimota's has a pretty good chassis and is light coupled with ttx shock and 20k worth of forks makes it hard to beat i've got about 10k in my ebay assy. job with a lot of chris boy corse parts his makes 130 and i know what's in it . i really don't think the average racer has the wallet and the stomach to race a 120hp 748 i bet half way through next year there will only be 5 or 6 good running 748's out there anyway.
Well, I've already got too much stomach... and the cost is pretty low if you do most of the work yourself. And, what's too much? Plus, there's more to the 748 motor than just hp as compared to the dual sparks... like actually having some over-rev. Still, a custom Ti frame & composite tank with a 748 could be very close to 300-310lb. But you're right about the chassis, my dual-spark shook like a can of squirrels until I welded in some gusseting.
Ya know, I just talked myself into it! This is the greatest idea ever!
Quote from: 123user on September 21, 2009, 04:56:53 PM
Well, I've already got too much stomach... and the cost is pretty low if you do most of the work yourself. And, what's too much? Plus, there's more to the 748 motor than just hp as compared to the dual sparks... like actually having some over-rev. Still, a custom Ti frame & composite tank with a 748 could be very close to 300-310lb. But you're right about the chassis, my dual-spark shook like a can of squirrels until I welded in some gusseting.
Ya know, I just talked myself into it! This is the greatest idea ever!
Let me ride the 1000. Ill let you keep the trophies. :biggrin:
Ben, it wouldn't be fair for someone that is actually talented to ride my duc. Besides, if I was only interested in trophies I would've quit a long time ago!
will the custom frame be legal? i can dig out my corse frame it's been collecting dust.it's stiff but still heavy. a light tank and mag swingarm is on the wish list for next year . the way it rev's and sounds is part of what i like about it . i still think there will only be a few bikes added . i really surprised no ones running a 749r in tbike now. i smell a 748 shoot out at daytona next year. sorry about the one liners the pain killers are making me loopy
Quote from: HAWK on September 20, 2009, 11:06:35 PM
Uhhhh... Rob that would be racing UP a class, no problem.
Shut ups yous. :biggrin:
"Hey control, 413 is leaking, may wanna blackflag him. :lmao:
Reading the rulebook it looks like a custom frame is legal in supertwins, GT, and of course LWGP. If, for some reason you need one bike for all lightweight classes... obviously you'll have to compromise.
I wouldn't mind seeing the 748 allowed in LW classes. Could open the class up to more people and make for larger grids.
Bartlett????
You have a 748 in the garage, don't you?
I'll trade you two whiney SVs for it!
Ben,
Mine is a 996, not 998. Similar? Yes...they look identical. But performance wise, the 998 has the current testastretta configuration. thinner, lighter, more powerful, etc etc.
Here's some basic stocker info on a few bikes:
Buell XB12: 103 HP/84 ft lb torque
Ducati 996: 112 HP/68 ft lb torque
Ducati 999: 143 HP/82 ft lb torque
So, our 996 bikes have 9 more ponies (yes, I am talking stock specs) than a 1200 Buell, and 16 LESS ft lb of torque, but we are relugateld to heavyweight classes ONLY. Its not a matter of whining, or calling "not fair" but seriously....there's no brevity there.
When I wrote Kevin about the 996, I never requested it be put into LW classes. Why? LW and ULW are already hammered by bigger bikes than they ever were in previous years. I think a 996 would dominate in LW class with the right rider...but it would be BS to have one in there running against SV's. I just found it odd that Buell's are granted such leeway in class structure, and that the rules still had so much negativism towards "Desmo valving" and wondered why. If you just compare the Buell to the 996, there is almost identical performance: 112/68 vs 103/84....pretty even numbers in my opinion, but the Buells are running LW, and I have to run against GSXR 750's or 1000 I4 stuff. :jerkoff:
I just didn't think it was right to relugate a similar spec bike to HW only classes, when the other is allowed two classes down.
Here's another thing to think about. Every time one of these discussions comes up, there's always one or two people saying that people should "shut up" and just go out and buy a newer, more competetive bike. While there is some truth in the statement, the reality is that this IS club racing, and not AMA, WSB, GP, etc. It is club racing. In the "big leagues" there is no issue of reclassification (oops, forgot about the Buell again!) and therefore isn't a huge issue. Club racing, on the other hand, needs reclassification now and again. Why? Because the average club racer does not have access to racing a fully prepped 2009, 10, 11 model. Are there some who can and do? Yep, but not a ton. Mostly, it's about going out and having fun.....COMPETETIVE fun. Reclassification of a ten year old generation of bikes is pretty much in line with this thought process.
Please, also notice that the only bikes CCS is thinking about reclassing is the old Desmoquattro stuff...748/916/996 only. The 749/998/999 Testastretta motors, and even the 848/1098 stuff isn't affected.
Twin cylinder bikes have always been placed in different classes to try and make things even. And yes, there are always a few who will build the hell out of one to gain an advantage....and yes, there will always be one or two companies (cough, Buell) who will slide in an unfair advantage (1125, ahem). But none of this is on par with reclassing an older, out of production, and under-powered as compared to new, generation of bikes.
I merely want to be able to run a few more classes, other than just Supertwins, where I could have a chance at competing. Will I still get my ass handed to me in MW with my 996? You betcha! Why? Because even in MW, my bike can't hold a candle to an R6 or CBR....but I ( and other quattro owners) may have a little more fun battling against something CLOSER than the HW stuff we are relugated to run against. That's not an unfair advantage- that's a reclass that makes sense in filling more grids.
PS- Ben....you complete me, and I'm gonna give you a good game when I see you next....and blame it on Randy. :thumb: LOL
Well your 996 tops out stock at 161mph and the XB12R is 20 mph slower.
Yup... its just club racing. You're not making a living doing it. Thats exactly why this reclassification is unnecessary. A little friendly racing for fun means that you're willing to run whatever you can afford in its designated class. Lobbying for reclassification to make a 10 year old bike competetive in some class isn't always welcome change.
I'm a little amused at the horsepower numbers you quote for the XB12R though. That 103 number comes out of their corporate literature and is recorded using the SAE J607 spec... and its not a measure of rear wheel hp, as most racer speak of.
I think everyone understands that you don't recommend adding the 996 to the lightweight class, and that you're just making a comparison between a currently legal bike AND the 996. However, if you think that the 996 and XB12R are comparable in any category... you're way off! The Buell is essentially a cleverly marketed tractor w/slicks, while both the 748 and 996 ducatis are over-engineered bikes designed for racing, they've been redeveloped through countless hours on the WSB stage and have lots of easily obtainable corse-parts.
In the end, what you're proposing would throw in a bike with a World Superbike pedigree into a class now comprised of pedestrian (although overbuilt) streetbikes. Its just upping the ante... in a class where it should be backed down.
Quote from: 123user on September 23, 2009, 08:09:30 AM
Lobbying for reclassification to make a 10 year old bike competetive in some class isn't always welcome change.
Its just upping the ante... in a class where it should be backed down.
+1 here. Well stated.
I know its been said already ( I know I have said it already, here and elsewhere)....if you want to be more competitive --- GET A MORE COMPETITIVE BIKE.
If an individual can't afford a more competitive bike.....maybe it's time to consider whether that individual should be racing at all....OR
run what you have and be happy where you finish, taking heart in the fact that you are out there at all.
I really do think it is just that simple....
You are so insightful, Mark. I wish I could think like you?
Quote from: Racer510 on September 23, 2009, 01:41:11 PM
You are so insightful, Mark. I wish I could think like you?
DAMMIT JAMIE... :banghead:
Quote from: Racer510 on September 23, 2009, 01:41:11 PM
You are so insightful, Mark. I wish I could think like you?
He thinks?
748's in lightweight? Better let the F2's in. FZR's and maybe F3's.
996's in Middleweight? Better let in the TL-R's and SV1000's. RC51?
Quote from: Super Dave on September 23, 2009, 05:43:09 PM
748's in lightweight? Better let the F2's in.
996's in Middleweight? Better let in the TL-R's and SV1000's. RC51?
already got a TL....just sittin here....
Quote from: Super Dave on September 23, 2009, 05:43:09 PM
748's in lightweight? Better let the F2's in. FZR's and maybe F3's.
996's in Middleweight? Better let in the TL-R's and SV1000's. RC51?
To be honest, Dave- I couldn't agree more.
Quote from: skiandclimb on September 23, 2009, 07:37:00 PM
To be honest, Dave- I couldn't agree more.
It makes sense for AHRMA. Not for CCS where "current" production bikes are the norm. It gets more messy every year. Would be easier just to categorized riders as slow, intermediate, and fast and run what you have. But it will continue down this path.
Quote from: Woofentino Pugrossi on September 21, 2009, 11:23:50 PM
Shut ups yous. :biggrin:
"Hey control, 413 is leaking, may wanna blackflag him. :lmao:
My mistake, after checking my facts you are indeed correct Rob.
This is all moot to me. Everybody keeps telling me that I should be keeping up with most experts on my 76hp ss sv and I actually believe them. Just need much more track time (I'm a slow learner) and new tires!!
QuoteI merely want to be able to run a few more classes, other than just Supertwins, where I could have a chance at competing.
sell your duc, buy an SV
Compete in ULW, LWss, LWsb, LWgp, GTL, Supertwins and Thunderbike
I betcha you can find a pretty well sorted SS SV for 3k...
Quote from: tstruyk on September 25, 2009, 09:48:37 PM
sell your duc, buy an SV
Compete in ULW, LWss, LWsb, LWgp, GTL, Supertwins and Thunderbike
I betcha you can find a pretty well sorted SS SV for 3k...
Tim, to be honest- that was my goal prior to tracking the Duc. I sold my ratted out Gixxer, and had the Duc sittin around, and not real extra $...so, hence the Duc. I am really beginning to like racing this thing- def. took a bit to get used to compared to the old SRAD, but I'm getting it. Trust me thoug- if I could find a money tree, I'd put the Duc back to street and find an SV.
Quote from: 123user on September 22, 2009, 09:01:06 AM
Reading the rulebook it looks like a custom frame is legal in supertwins, GT, and of course LWGP. If, for some reason you need one bike for all lightweight classes... obviously you'll have to compromise.
but then it's not legal for lightwt 40 and tbike and they are out classed in supertwins so you still did not gain any races the clear winner in lightwt down here is the bimota but it's 30k and they just added throttlebodys and a motec system to kevins bike. our raggetty old bike is the best thing to happen to chris's shop
Quote from: skiandclimb on September 25, 2009, 10:12:46 PM
Tim, to be honest- that was my goal prior to tracking the Duc. I sold my ratted out Gixxer, and had the Duc sittin around, and not real extra $...so, hence the Duc. I am really beginning to like racing this thing- def. took a bit to get used to compared to the old SRAD, but I'm getting it. Trust me thoug- if I could find a money tree, I'd put the Duc back to street and find an SV.
Or sell the Duc... who needs a street bike??? :biggrin:
I know you coppers are all on the take... let the knucklheads "sponsor" you! :)
Quote from: tstruyk on September 26, 2009, 12:14:40 AM
Or sell the Duc... who needs a street bike??? :biggrin:
I used to have a street bike.....
Chris.....I'll have an SV for sale in the next few months....gimme a call...price will be very reasonable.
BTW...this is NOT a joke about selling Tim's out from under him....I am serious.
well I bet we ALL used to have a street bike!
QuoteBTW...this is NOT a joke about selling Tim's out from under him....I am serious.
ya know that almost sounds like youre not kidding about selling my ride
:ahhh:
:biggrin:
I'm clarifying this more for myself... he has ANOTHER sv that he is selling. Hey Mark, with all this banter about Duc's I am thinkin we need a new, well actually we need A paint scheme. Or at least a central theme...
(https://www.ccsforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.gamesdigger.com%2Fcontent%2Ficons%2Fduck-hunter-icon-1.jpg&hash=96d9399a12e3dc0715087e6d8410e0bb19cb3901)
Maybe we should just alter the Ducks Unlimited logo a bit...... :boink:
HEY HAWK- Just a quick check in here to kudos your and K3's Moto Gt sponsorship- good luck at Daytona!
Mark-
I may be interested. Depends on a few things, really. Looking at a 748R right now....LOL (Just stirring the pot)
Quote from: skiandclimb on September 26, 2009, 08:17:38 PM
Mark-
I may be interested. Depends on a few things, really. Looking at a 748R right now....LOL (Just stirring the pot)
Combine Timmay and the motor Probst is building....the Duc ain't gonna have much for him.... :biggrin:
as far as the one I am selling....keep in touch and we will see what we can work out..... :thumb:
Quote from: backMARKr the motor Probst is building...
/quote]
Talk about unfair advantages. :thumb:
Quote from: tstruyk on September 25, 2009, 09:48:37 PM
sell your duc, buy an SV
Compete in ULW, LWss, LWsb, LWgp, GTL, Supertwins and Thunderbike
I betcha you can find a pretty well sorted SS SV for 3k...
Wasn't there SV cup races?
My take of club racing is all about run what you brung. If you can have an advantage with your bike then exploit it. It isn't so much about fairness or who the better rider is but more about who can put the best package together including the rider.
For me it is on the low budget end building my FZR600 with a total package cost of $5000 and winning a championship or two. Yeah there are faster and more expensive bikes now but I do what I can. Specs for my bike is 106rwhp(100hp on the Prieto dyno), close to 400 pounds without fuel, 120 front and 155 rear tire, without lightweight stuff. I am sure it can lose weight but there again cost is a factor.
I now ride a Ducati 800 mainly to preserve my points lead in Ultralight last year. But now after spending $10K to build, it isn't worth getting rid of it to get a different bike so it is the Ducati 800 for me. Specs on this machine is 87rwhp, carbon tank, Marchessini wheels, Ohlins shock and Ohlins internals for the forks. What I have found is that it is competitive with a really good SS spec SV and a 80 rwhp 1st Gen SV where the SV has the weight advantage. Top speed is virtually the same.
What I like about it is seeing the differences in the performance of all the different bikes. I see how the Ducati 800 compares to the SV and the FZR and I have found that I am just as fast on the Ultralight class Ducati 800 as I was on the once and still is Middleweight FZR. I know the FZR is Thunderbike legal but wasn't that also old Heavyweight Sportsman?
I don't think that clubracing is all about buying the newest badness or I would have already bought the Bimota or NCR-if I could afford it. It is about running what you brung-I am still waiting for Dave to bring out that Kawasaki. I think I might revive Devin's GS1000 or build an ole school CB750 more to just paradde around in Ultralight or even Vintage if we can bring it back.
Mark
Quote from: skidMARK on September 27, 2009, 01:33:08 PM
I know the FZR is Thunderbike legal but wasn't that also old Heavyweight Sportsman?
Yes it was. Back when I ran HW Sportsman (92 F2) there were a few mid 80's sportbikes in there also out having a good time. Old VF750 was one I remember running against. Think he quit racing mid way through the year they changed it to thunderbike and allowed the newer SV650.
I remember those VF750 where it seemed like everyone rode one when they were the newest badness. I remember watching Rick Shaw racing his at Moroso-if I can remamber that far back. There was one here in 2004 when I raced in the amateur ranks. It would be pretty cool to watch now, well built, well ridden and down-right fast.
Mark
CCS has the light weight class so fucked up its silly! I"m looking harder at going racing with WERA it's just better set up for SV's. Put all that other crap such as the Buells in the MW class, where they should be anyway and leave the LW for the SV and similar bikes.The LW class should be where riders can have cheap reliable race bikes.
It's a tough choice for any organization to cater to everyone which is what I believe CCS has attemtped to do. As an organizer would you cater to the new stuff or more to the old? The Buell is new along with some other models such is the case of the Bimota. The SV is from 2000 almost 10 years now with a few ugrades. It isn't the organizations fault that the SV isn't keeping up with the newest badness.
I know I am rambling and my statements may seem contradictory but they are all food for thought. I believe that club racing is about getting all different kinds of motorcycles and people together to enjoy our enthusiasm. I also believe there can be some overall limits to displacements for each category regardless of the configuration of the motor. I also think there can be some concessions for the year of a motorcycle.
Can you imagine my 1989 FZR400 in any Superbike trim is considered competitive against an SV. I guess I gotta find a grey market FZR.
Mark
My argument has never been that the SV needs to be the baseline or that the class should march on with technical development. I just don't think that 130HP is a lightweight class figure. I thought that the LW classes were supposed to be a little more budget friendly, the current trend will have tire consumption as high in LW as MW soon.
I have no intention of ever racing a MW machine, I'm too old to deal with the speed at the end of the straights but we're headed for MW-A and MW-B and no LW.
I'm with you Paul on your thoughts. I think the trend has been around for sometime it's just that the newest class leading lightweight bikes have finally been built to full advantage by their respective manufacturers.
I would prefer to see the LW Supersport and GT lights class keep the 1000 anything out. That would relegate the air-cooled 1000 twins to LW GP, LW SB and the sportsman class of Thunderbike. The SV could be legal for Ultralight Superbike, LW Supersport and GT lights. A stock FZR400 can never beat a stock SV with equal or even close in skill rider, it's just too much to overcome. The FZR400 and the SV weigh the same but at 60 rwhp for the FZR and 70+ for the SV there is just no match. Then you may say well who races and FZR anymore, but then that will also be the way of the SV.
Guys - time marches on. LW used to be FZR400's, Hawks and GS500's. Along came the SV and pushed those bikes to the back of the grid. The SV was legal for the class pretty much because when the rule was written for the 650 cc three valve hawk nobody thought about specifying that the 650 twins couldn't have 4 valves per cylinder... Oh well, it was legal and took over the class.
I almost think there are 2 separate issues here. First is bike development and the second is just the willingness of the racers to build the maximum bike allowed by the rules.
In terms of bike development I think the problem is that Suzuki hasn't done any improvements on the SV while other manufacturers have offered products that fit in the class and have gotten much better than previous generations. Ever notice that the most competitive SV's out there are actually 1st Gen units - that pretty much tells me that subsequent changes by Suzuki actually were going backwards while other manufactures moved forwards. The Ducati 1000SS is really just an improved version of the 900SS which always was in LW - a bit more stroke in the crank and much improved heads with a dual spark design. The Buell XB 9 and 12 are just the same old Harley engines wrapped in a new frame. Why hasn't Suzuki done anything new? At its heart, the displacement advantage for air cooled 2 valve twins shouldn't be a huge advantage against a liquid cooled 4 valve engine at 700 ish cc's. While I do have a big advantage in torque on my Ducati I have absolutely zero over-rev and it takes more effort to get the big crank on the bike to lay over into turns.
How much of this is an issue that a lot of SV guys want to race the same 10 year old stock bike and be competitive. What I see is that LW has become a builders class and that some of us have enough money to build what we want. There are a couple of SV's out there that pull my Ducati - I can't keep up with Ed Key's bike and at best I can hope to stay in the draft of Kevin Utech on his SV Superbike. I don't complain about it - I come up with further development plans for the bike to improve power, reduce weight and step up reliability while I think about how to improve my riding. If there are guys that can afford throwing $30,000 to $40,000 a year into their LW bikes, I don't think we should penalize them for this - it is just a natural advantage in a capitalistic system that you will have to deal with. I am sorry, but, it is not cubic inches that is a problem here, it is cubic dollars.
I like the eclectic mixture of bikes and think the more brands the better. What I don't think we should do is to either "protect" a certain bike that hasn't been developed by the factory for many years or become a dumping ground for vintage Middle Weight bikes. If you want to bring back a "true" LW class, lets go back to the old Fizzer/Hawk/GS days and outlaw SV's with everything else modern.
Just my $0.02.
George
QuoteI just don't think that 130HP is a lightweight class figure.
bingo
QuoteGuys - time marches on. LW used to be FZR400's, Hawks and GS500's. Along came the SV and pushed those bikes to the back of the grid. The SV was legal for the class pretty much because when the rule was written for the 650 cc three valve hawk nobody thought about specifying that the 650 twins couldn't have 4 valves per cylinder... Oh well, it was legal and took over the class.
Key in on the last sentence., It was legal...
Either way the rule is written I'll still race. I just dont see a need to bring older machinery down a class.
George, nobody's got a problem with your bike, it's the fact that the entire thunderbike class seems to want into the LW class.
What it all comes down to is LW bikes shouldn't be as fast as MW bikes and if this keeps up that's where we're headed. The SV was moved to ULW to make way for the new 750 liquid cooled twins, how are they a development of the LW technology, they're too big? If you go back and read the displacement limits for the different classes you will find that the current LW liquid cooled twin limit is what the 2006 MW twin limit was. So LW was rewritten to allow a larger displacement. A logical deduction here would be to start development on a 900CC Liquid cooled twin so that when LW gets upped to 900 in a couple years you will be ahead of the development curve. It's not that LW bikes are getting faster, it's that bigger bikes are getting let into LW.
So....the 748 into LW not withstanding, is anyone here (honestly) against letting a Duc 916 or 996 (112 RWH) into MW & Thunderbike?
Quote from: skiandclimb on September 28, 2009, 07:31:12 PM
So....the 748 into LW not withstanding, is anyone here (honestly) against letting a Duc 916 or 996 (112 RWH) into MW & Thunderbike?
Hey Tim! What did the R6 dyno out at last month?
Ski,
Do you see what you started? It's the same conversation each year fo what bike should be in what class, but lets race and compare notes as we do.
The 916 or 996 in Thunderbike? Not! Marc's 748 was recently tuned and now produces 119rwhp. Yours at 112 is way off the mark. Take your bike to European Performance Cycles and Marc will make it go.
Yeah....it's got a couple more than 112....I need to Dyno it @ WAFO over in IL. and see what she's making right now. Just wanted to see what people's thoughts on the subject were. This has turned into a SV discussion group now...just trying to get it back on track.
Quote from: skiandclimb on September 28, 2009, 08:34:05 PM
Yeah....it's got a couple more than 112....I need to Dyno it @ WAFO over in IL. and see what she's making right now. Just wanted to see what people's thoughts on the subject were. This has turned into a SV discussion group now...just trying to get it back on track.
Chris...I don't think its an "SV discussion group", even given the fact that a lot of SV riders are speaking up. I think the consensus is that if you want to be more competitive, get a more competitive bike. Don't change the existing structure to accomodate the bike you have. And just to solidify the point that the SVs aren't the only dog in this fight, if they let the 916/996 into Thunderbike, they better let my '02 750 as well ( just for argument since the Duc is in HW) its not competitive against the new 750s either (definitely isn't with me on it!)
Personally, I don't really care that much, I am gonna race what I have for the fun of getting to race. Period.
The one issue I can see arising with adjusting to accomodate older bikes is not where it starts but where it stops (kinda like censorship).
Mark, you love Ducs. Yout post count is currently 996. lol
Quote from: backMARKr on September 28, 2009, 08:12:52 PM
Hey Tim! What did the R6 dyno out at last month?
Well to be fair Jerry's Dyno is a heart breaker... but it wasnt over 112...
with my 06 motor on pump gas I was in the mid teens on hitmans...
My thought now since I am on a Ducati 800 is that the Ducati 800 SB and a stock SV is a pretty good match as compared to seat of the p[ants weekend racing against the SV in Florida. The SB SV with 80hp is just a tick faster than my Ducati 800 with HC pistons, porting and mild cams. Opening up the breather for the Ducati seems to make great gains on all the models.
Class-wise I think that Thunderbike is an intermediary class between Middleweight and Lightweight. I believe that there could be an intermediary class between Lightweight and Thunderbike such as LW GP and LW SB which already exists. LW SS and GT lights could remain for the smaller twins and even smaller inline fours thus to some extent making it a little more affordable.
916 and 996 in MW, but not in Thunderbike. 998/999 in Heavyweight. 1098 anything in Unlimited. It is my belief the Ducati 800 is more of a lightweight bike and not the Ultralight where the Ducati 750 and smaller should have been the Ultralight.
I would also like to see some concessions to say a 10 year old bike.
I would like to see the 748 in something under the MW class. Though I don't think LW is necessarily the right place for it either. Perhaps there needs to be an in between class? With that being said, I was still getting schooled at BHF on my 996 by an SV in SuperTwins. In this case, I would say that the rider played a much bigger role than equipment. I am not a fast person by any means...but short tracks will not favor the 748 over anything else. And when I say 748, I mean a 748, not a 748R. The 748R should not be considered for LW. It is a MW candidate for sure being that it will pump out as much power as my 996 (which I do think should be in MW). Right now I run only in SuperTwins because my 119hp 996 just isn't competitive in any other class (with me piloting it). Thunderbike should stay with the 748...and even the 748R even though it is an over-achiever.
The 748 is below the MW class as in Thunderbike. What is proposed is for the 748 be classified in LW GP and LW Superbike-so that in between class already exists. There are three different models of the 748 as I understand with the RS being a killer of a bike. Yes the RS will have as much power as your 996 until you do even more work to your bike or aomeone else that has one will do.
I know what your saying about Thunderbike. I agree, it is a bit below MW. However, a class for bikes that are not "light weight" would be nice. Something that the 2 valve 1000cc bikes, sv650's and the 7 series Ducs could compete in along with other bikes that just don't fit the true meaning of light weight. I would say that R model Ducs should not be allowed unless it is a unlimited version. The power output of the R (and of course the RS) compared to the standard bikes in stock form is more than should be let into a lot of the MW class (in my opinion anyways).
Quote from: kawtipping on September 30, 2009, 09:44:14 PM
I would say that R model Ducs should not be allowed unless it is a unlimited version. The power output of the R (and of course the RS) compared to the standard bikes in stock form is more than should be let into a lot of the MW class (in my opinion anyways).
How would you enforce this? I don't think it would be too hard to build something darn close to a 748R from a standard model. There is no shortage of Corse parts or bits and pieces from R bikes that you could use to put this together and by VIN it would appear as a standard model. It would also be almost a complex check in Tech to discover the differences without some detailed inspection and dis-assembly.
If you want to race LW, I think you should buy something legal for LW. If you like racing your 748, accept that outside of Thunderbike it is going to be dis-advantaged.
Funny thing is that if they actually make this rule change, I just may go out and buy myself a 748. I always loved those bikes and would just have a blast trying to build one to be reliable and fast.
George
Quote from: George_Linhart on October 01, 2009, 11:10:05 AM
If you want to race LW, I think you should buy something legal for LW. If you like racing your 748, accept that outside of Thunderbike it is going to be dis-advantaged.
George
+1 That goes for a number of "other" bikes too...
Looks like there will be a lot of 748 running next year.
Quote from: skidMARK on October 01, 2009, 12:05:38 PM
Looks like there will be a lot of 748 running next year.
I'd be lookin for one...
Quote from: tstruyk on October 01, 2009, 01:09:34 PM
I'd be lookin for one...
NO! I am not buying a 748...
you stay outta this! :biggrin:
Quote from: backMARKr on September 22, 2009, 12:35:56 PM
Bartlett????
You have a 748 in the garage, don't you?
I'll trade you two whiney SVs for it!
Yes, I have one in the garage...
No I won't trade.... and don't you know it's not nice to call Timmay & Kyle "whiney SV's".... :lmao:
Quote from: Jason748 on October 02, 2009, 01:57:57 PM
.... and don't you know it's not nice to call Timmay & Kyle "whiney SV's".... :lmao:
:lmao:
Quote from: Jason748 on October 02, 2009, 01:57:57 PM
Yes, I have one in the garage...
No I won't trade.... and don't you know it's not nice to call Timmay & Kyle "whiney SV's".... :lmao:
:err:
:finger:
:lmao:
looks to me like the more bikes let into lightwt the smaller the grid size i did not look it up but i think it we are averaging 7 to 8 bikes a race which makes it mandatory to win if you want any contingency . one of the biggest problem is the average old guy in light weight is comfortable at about 70 or 80 hp and just about everything is making more. i mean you can buy a mustang that makes 500hp stock. you spend hours on a dyno to get that 10 years ago. power has affected everything . the next gen. fighters won't have pilots . cars with 6 and 700 hp. factory. so this catches us old guy's out. so if you go and buy a new competitive bike are you any faster? theirs always someone with skill or no sense that will be faster. i buy the latest whammy lightweight a little tuning and i make 100hp and have the latest chassis so what's the difference .i still can't ride any faster. unless traction control and abs really come along . pay extra for a dyno at the track and dyno the first 3 bikes of all the classes? limit tire sizes like stock cars do ? how do the 2 stroke guys feel there getting crushed by time too? 2 or 3 new types in next year and 2 or 3 drop off. yeng and yang you still only got 8 bikes and you still get crushed by the guy with a chain drive wallet. it's differant age you can have made or buy anything. years ago you bought a bike and it was fast or slow you fixed it youself or lived with it.now cnc machining has made the averge bike or car go faster coupled with electronics it's going to squish you guts in the corner. i take my heads to my friend who builds drag bikes from ground up it's a little shop with 2, 5 axis cnc's the first thing he says lets cut out a pair of new heads with some real race ports . just need a chunk of aluminium and a chunk of money. it's hopeless i'll shut up now.
Honestly, all of the slower guys I know on older ducs are going to get whooped just as bad in LW and Thunderbike as they would in B/750/HW.
My Response:
Bimota 1000......seems to be whooping ass in most classes here in the South! I don't agree with letting them in these classes...takes away from the point of Thunderbike, can't understand why it's considered a lightweight, etc. etc. either.... It's fast!
The Bimota is fast but if you are gonna spend the type of money it takes to purchase and run one it better be fast. There are four that I know of in the Florida region with only three running this year on a consistent basis. Right now only one is kicking some tail and I must say it is a very fast and capable rider-not saying the other riders aren't capable, but that 91 is pretty quick. I still haven't been able to match his pace on the 748 of Marc Miller but I am slowly coming to grips with riding a 748.
Mark
you just need some general Tso chicken about 12.30 and that should pickup the pace of course a good track day this winter might help tooo
So that's the trick. I have been ordering the mongolian beef instead. Maybe pasta woud be a better fit.
we got a place in orlando called ho hut you pick your ingredients and sauce and they cook it on a big steel plate. all you can eat. a real hogathon. mr. boy thinks his lightweight 748 can go 1.19s at moroso if he pushed . turned a 21 on last years daytona tires and said he was cruzing food for thought to all us lightweight guys.
That means at best I may get a 23.
he says that he's only keeping it for the daytona races not local ccs .but 3 seconds off the lap record on a lightweight bike . chris is a really good rider but not te best on the planet anyway it's all in fun for us right?
Well, I did check and he did a 1:21.9 following Mendez. Of course Mendez really upped his game and was running ultrafast on his lightweight bike. Chris also does 1:19's on his 1098 so that RS is pretty dang fast. Don't think I could ever run that quickly on the R model spec.
ya there's more to that bike and he was playing with mendez he tells me he's down on power from last year but still probaby has 125hp soo i need 5 or 8 hp and you need to go to the gym LOL i may build a set of rs cammed heads over the winter if money allows .and i've started work on the b bike going to be milder motor but something that we can abuse and maybe i'll ride a little too. cheer up
Chris kinds let the cat out of the bag when he implied his RS made 135, so a little down on poer may mean 130. It is very fast when he came by me.
Quote from: Ducmarc on October 12, 2009, 09:45:05 PM
ya there's more to that bike and he was playing with mendez he tells me he's down on power from last year but still probaby has 125hp soo i need 5 or 8 hp and you need to go to the gym LOL i may build a set of rs cammed heads over the winter if money allows .and i've started work on the b bike going to be milder motor but something that we can abuse and maybe i'll ride a little too. cheer up
Well, that explains a few things down the straight away. And they won't allow Honda F3's in Thunderbike...hmmn. Let's see, an updated 600 should be let in then. Someone didn't think about that before letting them in now did they. Not too mention, you shouldn't have to have a $30K bike to run in Thunderbike. Just my 2 cents!
ya mark he's got 40+ hp on you and better drive and better aerodynamics s it's a wonder your paint didn't peel off . and 30k was a stock bike those gas charged olins are 20k and he's spent atleast 20k in the motor then the motec and the carbon and the wheels and the new throttlebodys i bet he's got 90k in it plus he's a good smooth rider. so to stay in touch with him is an accomplishment and a chance to beat him even better you got to admit it's fun to make him nervious on the old junk pile of ours just hope he dosn't go to a 748rs or 749r
You can build one of those can't ya?
sure let me crank up the o'l ebay radar
If you'd like to race against one, two, maybe three other people, then allow the 748 in. Lets be realistic people. Love it or hate it, SV650's makes up 95% of the lightweight grids. Why, because they are a cheap means to race and still be relatively competitive. Raise the bar, by allowing bigger more powerful and more expensive bikes in LW, and the grids will shrink even more then they did this past year with the bad economy. I, for one, would not continue to spend $400 in entry fees every race weekend knowing my SV was no longer competitive. That is the reality of this decision. It is easy to say, "stop whining and buy a more competitive bike" when you have the money to buy one. But the fact of the matter is, most are riding SV's because that is all they can afford, including myself. So if you and your buddy can afford a 748, have fun racing each other and forget about any contingency money.....then again, I guess if you can afford a Ducati you probably don't need contingency money.
why don't everyone with an sv complain to Kevin about it there's only about 10 guys wanting a change and there's hundreds of sv's. i was told that if anyone didn't want a change to let him know. that was a second hand quote but made sense. and with buell gone is there any contingency left in lightwight?
Why is it that SV riders are so against the 748? There was no complaining when the SV was put into ULW. So....it's ok for THAT move, but not for the Ducs? I am confused. Not flaming- just confused.
The reality is that each and every year, bikes get lighter, faster and more nimble. After a while, pretty much all bikes begin to fall of the performance charts. As that happens, club racing makes moves to keep the grids competetive. The SV's felt out of sorts against big Buells, and whalah- they went into ULW. Now, there's talk of some older Ducs being allowe to run against a grid with more parody, and they should be granted the same adjustment.
Let's be honest...in 15 yearsm you'll probably see 1098's running in lower classes. lol
I know my karma will likely be smitten with anger, but them's the brakes I suppose.
I am an SV rider and will very much support the SV cause but I am not at all angry about the possibility of adding the Ducati. My point is simple, lightweight grids are mostly made up of SV's, why, because they are CHEAP. So from a business standpoint, why would you want to continue to push the SV to the low end of the competitive scale within the lightweight class. Kinda shooting yourself in the foot, isn't it???? It's been stated on here already, there is only about 10 people who are pushing for it and there is hundreds of SV riders. I raced every CCS Southeast Race this season and was always discouraged when looking at the grids and seeing an increased number of Buell XB12's along with the occasional Ducati 1000's. Now add the 748 to the mix and the SV slides back another notch. So the question really should be, what is better for the "CLASS" and or business? Is the eventual squeezing out of the SV the best for the class and or business? Maybe it is, but I'm betting the grids will be pitiful without them. I, for one, would not continue to spend hundreds of dollars per weekend to race an SV in the Lightweight Class. My decision would be simple, try another racing organization or go back to spending $105 for trackdays at Jennings GP. There would however, be no anger from me about the decision to allow or not to allow the 748. I would simply move on to something else.
As for contingency money in lightweight without Buell, oh yes, there is plenty. Michelin Tires pretty much funded my whole season this year. EBC brakes have been awesome along with Powerstands and Silkolene Lubricants. The CCS staff did a fantastic job securing a nice group of contingency sponsors.
We all have opinions!
Al Smith
CCS AM #95
Quote from: skiandclimb on October 21, 2009, 10:49:01 AM
Why is it that SV riders are so against the 748? There was no complaining when the SV was put into ULW. So....it's ok for THAT move, but not for the Ducs? I am confused. Not flaming- just confused.
Actually there was complaining about that. It came from guys with ultra-light bikes. Why would the SV crowd complain? They were being put in a class that got them away from the ever growing number of 1000cc+ bikes that should not have been in LW to begin with.
Quote
The reality is that each and every year, bikes get lighter, faster and more nimble. After a while, pretty much all bikes begin to fall of the performance charts. As that happens, club racing makes moves to keep the grids competetive. The SV's felt out of sorts against big Buells, and whalah- they went into ULW. Now, there's talk of some older Ducs being allowe to run against a grid with more parody, and they should be granted the same adjustment.
What do guys with older uncompetitive 600s do? They buy new bikes. The 748 is a middleweight bike, period. If the 748 is not competitive anymore, you buy a new bike. You do not push it down to lightweight then tell the LW crowd to buy new bikes. It is that simple. The SV has been and always will be a lightweight bike, not ultralight. If the classing in LW gets fixed, there is no reason for the SV in ULW in the first place.
LW is an entry level class. If you want people to "enter" the sport, they need somewhere to start that doesn't involve remortgaging the house.( that will come later when their hooked.) The LW class offers an inexpensive way to get into racing by giving the rider the ability to by a competitive bike at an affordable price and go racing. If the baseline for LW is increased, participation will decrease.
For all you lightweight guys and gals out there, I have sent in a lengthy letter and recommendation list to Kevin already.
I guess we shall see what pans out....
At the time, I was in favor of killing the ultra-light class instead of allowing the SV in. From the grids at ROC, it appears that ultralight is "reborn".
From where I stand, there are no "entry-level" classes in CCS. The money required to run a topshelf bike any of the lightweight classes is staggering regardless of whether to run the buell, 1000ds, or SV. It appears that the lightweight bikes suck up money in "build" at about twice the cost of the middleweight, and by the time they get in the 100-115hp range they eat tires too. My dualspark destroys tires.
Based upon rule decisions in previous years, I noticed that Kevin creates a pretty honest balance between filling grids and adding eligible equipment. Until another manufacture adds a bike (Like an SV800), its doubtful that the rule will include 4 valve desmo's this year. Perhaps we can table this silliness for a couple of years??
Quote from: skiandclimb on October 21, 2009, 10:49:01 AM
Why is it that SV riders are so against the 748? There was no complaining when the SV was put into ULW. So....it's ok for THAT move, but not for the Ducs? I am confused. Not flaming- just confused.
For the record I (an SV rider) encouraged people to contact Kevin to oppose that change in 2007 with the end result that the change was delayed for one year. I still oppose the reclassification.
Quote from: skiandclimb on October 21, 2009, 10:49:01 AM
The reality is that each and every year, bikes get lighter, faster and more nimble. After a while, pretty much all bikes begin to fall of the performance charts. As that happens, club racing makes moves to keep the grids competetive. The SV's felt out of sorts against big Buells, and whalah- they went into ULW. Now, there's talk of some older Ducs being allowe to run against a grid with more parody, and they should be granted the same adjustment.
Let's be honest...in 15 yearsm you'll probably see 1098's running in lower classes. lol
I know my karma will likely be smitten with anger, but them's the brakes I suppose.
From the 2006 CCS rule book.
6.1.3 - Displacement limits are absolute and are set as follows:
Lightweight Supersport (Amateur & Expert Divisions)
Single cylinder, Unlimited displacement
twin cylinder, liquid cooled 2-stroke, up to 450cc
Two stroke, air cooled, unlimited displacement
Twin cylinder, liquid cooled, up to 675cc
Twin cylinder, air cooled, up to 1210cc
Four cylinder, liquid cooled, up to 450cc
Four cylinder, air cooled, up to 675cc
Four cylinder, liquid cooled, pre-1987 model yer up too 565cc
Harley-Davidson Sportsters of unlimited displacement
NOTE: Ducati/Bimota/BMW Supermono/Woods Rotax are excluded
For 2009...
6.1.3 - Displacement limits are absolute and are set as follows:
Lightweight Supersport (Amateur & Expert Divisions)
Single cylinder, Unlimited displacement
twin cylinder, liquid cooled 2-stroke, up to 450cc
Two stroke, air cooled, unlimited displacement
Twin cylinder, liquid cooled, No-Desmodromic valves, up to 800cc
Twin cylinder, air cooled, up to 1210cc
Four cylinder, liquid cooled, up to 450cc
Four cylinder, air cooled, up to 675cc
Four cylinder, liquid cooled, pre-1987 model yer up too 565cc
Harley-Davidson Sportsters of unlimited displacement
NOTE: Ducati/Bimota/BMW Supermono/Woods Rotax are excluded
Note that the performance increase of the bikes legal for LW is not really the issue, but rather the displacement of the bikes legal for LW class, which increased from 675cc to 800cc. I have no problem with the SV being displaced by newer technology but when you simply open the door to larger bikes I'm sorry but that is not technological progress and has in fact directly lead to this argument. With the original displacement limits the 748 would never have even been considered but when the LW class was extended to 800cc to accomodate MW bikes that were not competitive the new limits now included the 748.
I am not sure why there is the complaint about the 748 in lightweight(Sarcasm), it is already legal in Ultralight. There was one that actually entered ROC 2009 just that he broke earlier in the weekend. If it is legal for Ultralight, then it should be legal for LW.
I truly believe that the SV650 is a lighweight bike and the 1000 anything is at least maybe restricted from GT lights and SS. It should then be legal for LW GP and LW SB.
My Ducati 800 with motorwork is pretty even with a fully stock SV650. If the SV650 has work there is no chance of keeping up. The Ducati 800 costs more for upkeep and purchase but it is slower than the SV.
What gets me is the thought that an inline four liquid cool 450 could ever keep up with any LW bike.
Mark
Guess you guys missed the "No-Desmodromic Valves" in the rule book. The 748 has Desmodromic Valves and is not yet legal! See the spec's on the bike here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ducati_748
Quote from: PlayHard on October 22, 2009, 11:24:26 AM
Guess you guys missed the "No-Desmodromic Valves" in the rule book. The 748 has Desmodromic Valves and is not yet legal! See the spec's on the bike here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ducati_748
Ah no... no one missed it. We're talking about the "proposed rule change" for next year, not the current rules.
you can't tell me the bike that won ultralight SUPERSPORT at daytona was some 1500 dollar ebay special with a slipon. I built my 748r from scratch and have around 8k in it. i guarantee that the winning bike has something close to that. by the time you add everything up you do have a pile in any of these bikes i don't care which one it is .lightweight middleweight heavyweight. you really think nates bike is stock or marco's bike,pony's, eric wood's or anyone else that finshed in the top 5 in any race and as far as contingency , I'm talking brand contingency .i know there's tire money we get it every month but I've never had new enough bike to get any ducati money. I'm was asking if suzuki or kawasaki is still putting out or was buell the only one left in lightweight.and if you are running around on a first gen. carberated clanker your not getting any either. if you really want to stop the money train either enforce a horsepower rule or a engine buyout rule
while we're at it lets let the Honda RS250 run in GTL and Lteweight F40
Quote from: Ducmarc on October 22, 2009, 04:08:42 PM
you can't tell me the bike that won ultralight SUPERSPORT at daytona was some 1500 dollar ebay special with a slipon. I built my 748r from scratch and have around 8k in it. i guarantee that the winning bike has something close to that. by the time you add everything up you do have a pile in any of these bikes i don't care which one it is .lightweight middleweight heavyweight. you really think nates bike is stock or marco's bike,pony's, eric wood's or anyone else that finshed in the top 5 in any race and as far as contingency , I'm talking brand contingency .i know there's tire money we get it every month but I've never had new enough bike to get any ducati money. I'm was asking if suzuki or kawasaki is still putting out or was buell the only one left in lightweight.and if you are running around on a first gen. carberated clanker your not getting any either. if you really want to stop the money train either enforce a horsepower rule or a engine buyout rule
8 out of the 11 EXPERT entries in Ultra Light Superbike at Daytona rode SV650's including the winner who ran 2:06 lap times. Don't know the guy so I don't know what mods his bike had. In the Amateur Group, the winner rode a 2002 1st. Gen SV650. Mods include full exhaust, power commander, rear shock, race tech emulators in the front forks, and race body work. His name is Darrel Ryals. He lives in New Port Richey Florida. I've raced against him all year in the southeast and he is a good friend of mine. He paid right at $3,000 for it just like it sits. He ran very respectable 2:10 lap-times at Daytona on pretty much a stock SV. He had some some head shake problems with the bike and believes he could have easily gotten into the 2:08's with it.
None of the Manufactures pay worth a damn. If they do, its only for one or two races per region per year. The real contingency money comes from Michelin Tires. I averaged close to $500 per race weekend which equals free tires. As an Amateur rider, that is a big help.
ts:
Quote from: PlayHard on October 21, 2009, 12:07:33 AM
I guess if you can afford a Ducati you probably don't need contingency money.
This is sooo true. Everyone knows all ducati owners are filthy rich.
:jerkoff:
Quote from: PlayHard on October 22, 2009, 07:35:00 PM
8 out of the 11 EXPERT entries in Ultra Light Superbike at Daytona rode SV650's including the winner who ran 2:06 lap times. Don't know the guy so I don't know what mods his bike had. In the Amateur Group, the winner rode a 2002 1st. Gen SV650. Mods include full exhaust, power commander, rear shock, race tech emulators in the front forks, and race body work. His name is Darrel Ryals. He lives in New Port Richey Florida. I've raced against him all year in the southeast and he is a good friend of mine. He paid right at $3,000 for it just like it sits. He ran very respectable 2:10 lap-times at Daytona on pretty much a stock SV. He had some some head shake problems with the bike and believes he could have easily gotten into the 2:08's with it.
None of the Manufactures pay worth a damn. If they do, its only for one or two races per region per year. The real contingency money comes from Michelin Tires. I averaged close to $500 per race weekend which equals free tires. As an Amateur rider, that is a big help.
wow, if he rode a 1st gen, how did he get the power commander to operate the carbs?
Here is what I don't understand in this whole debate...or bitch session. If the SV is ULW legal, why would anyone be up in arms about a 748 in LW? Is it that SV riders want to classes to try to dominate? Hell, I know of a few SV's that killed my 996 this season in Super Twins. I think an SV vs. most 748's would still be a very close match up. Why not let the 748's in and see how it goes? Worse case, all the SV's just dominate in ULW where they are the majority of the grid anyways. This is just my opinion....be it a biased one or not. I would love to race my 748 in more than one class and actually be competitive.
Quote from: kawtipping on October 23, 2009, 12:14:01 AM
Here is what I don't understand in this whole debate...or bitch session. If the SV is ULW legal, why would anyone be up in arms about a 748 in LW? Is it that SV riders want to classes to try to dominate? Hell, I know of a few SV's that killed my 996 this season in Super Twins. I think an SV vs. most 748's would still be a very close match up. Why not let the 748's in and see how it goes? Worse case, all the SV's just dominate in ULW where they are the majority of the grid anyways. This is just my opinion....be it a biased one or not. I would love to race my 748 in more than one class and actually be competitive.
OK, I've said it all twice now in this thread and if you go look at the SV to ULW thread from last year you'll see it all over again.
The SV doesn't belong in ULW and MW bikes don't belong in LW. Everyone keeps telling me that bikes get faster, deal with it. Can someone please tell me why Moto-GP keeps lowering the displacement and CCS keeps increasing it? If you let 800cc machines into a class that a couple years ago had an
absolute displacement limit of 675cc then HELL YES the bikes are getting faster, last time I checked anytime you make the engine BIGGER then all other things being equal it gets more POWERFUL! This isn't about the SV being pushed down to ULW (which for those who don't care to do their research, was done to make way for all the new 750cc and 800cc twins that weren''t competitive in MW but weren't legal in LW) it's about bigger and bigger bikes, that belong in MW being let into LW.
Now if you'll excuse me I need to get back to work on my 900cc SV, It should be LW legal in a couple years.
Quote from: sasrocks on October 23, 2009, 12:07:25 AM
wow, if he rode a 1st gen, how did he get the power commander to operate the carbs?
I assumed because of quick shifter, must be an ignition module, Sorry, good catch though....
Quote from: funsizeracing on October 22, 2009, 08:53:57 PM
ts:This is sooo true. Everyone knows all ducati owners are filthy rich.
:jerkoff:
I may be filthy but I am not rich.
Mark
hey' i live in a double wide with a field full of cows.and i own my own business so you know i'm broke
Quote from: funsizeracing on October 22, 2009, 08:53:57 PM
ts:This is sooo true. Everyone knows all ducati owners are filthy rich.
:jerkoff:
Wealth and Racing a ducati are two mutually exclusive concepts... this is how it works: 1st start with some money, 2nd purchase ducati, 3rd fix everthing that ducati screwed up, 4th you're now poor!
or it can go like this:
1st start with some money, 2nd purchase a ducati, 3rd race the ducati as assembled at the factory, 4th ducati explodes, 5th now fix bike, 6th now your poor.
I call option 1 the direct path. Option 2 is the toxic mortgage plan
Quote from: Ducmarc on October 23, 2009, 10:21:58 AM
hey' i live in a double wide with a field full of cows.and i own my own business so you know i'm broke
You must be rich if you can afford the double wide!
Isn't a 748 comparable to a 1000DS on power to weight ratio? That's more important than cc.
Quote from: funsizeracing on October 23, 2009, 10:32:13 AM
Isn't a 748 comparable to a 1000DS on power to weight ratio? That's more important than cc.
When you're on it the power to weight gets a little irrelevent . A stock 1000ds makes about 85-87hp and weighs about 400lbs, a stock 748 makes 90-95hp and weighs about 400lbs... so the numbers say there's not much difference.
Except the 1000ds chassis sucks, while the 748 is a rock. The 1000ds shuts down by 8500rpm, while the 748 revs to 11K. The 1000ds rotating assembly is a giant, inertia infested lump of crap, the 748 is much faster revving. The 748 has 10 years of World Superbike development, while your lucky if you can find a decent set of rearsets for the 1000ds. Analysis: 748-racebike, 1000ds-streetbike.
85-87 for the 1000DS-What? my Duc 800 with cams, HC pistons, and some excellent mapping produces 87 rwhp and still weighs as much as the DS. The 748 has more power outright hp but the DS pulls the 748 out of the corners with the torquey grunt. Yes the 748 has more RPM to work with and thus the overrev is nice at times. It sure feels like to me that the 748 is much heavier than the SS. 748-Superbike, 1000DS-Supersport.
Rumors of the hp output of the stock 1000ds have been greatly exaggerated! A really, really good 1000ds CCS supersport LEGAL build might make 95 on a loose dyno jet... mine made 79 on a factory pro... however that converts. And take it from me, the 1000ss frame is crap! Especially when you start adding some power. Until I braced the frame, mine shook badly. My impression of the 1000ss is that its difficult to ride fast... and that seems to be a common response among others I've met that race one.
And grunt? Thats why the RC-51 can run circles around 600's, right? Oh yeah... they don't. The "grunt" makes is difficult to control, making you wait to roll on. Again we're comparing a race bike to a street bike.
Last I weighed my 748, stock except for race glass, alum solo subframe with a full tank, I was around 450 +/- lbs, with a empty tank I was around 440 +/- but that was 6-7 years ago, so maybe it's lost 50lbs sitting in the back of the garage since then. :rollseyes:
450lbs!!! it must be the leaded fuel weighing it down.
I never weighed my 1000ss stock and full of fuel... but according to sportrider, it weighs 446lb with a full tank... so yes very similar to a 748.
Quote from: PlayHard on October 22, 2009, 11:24:26 AM
Guess you guys missed the "No-Desmodromic Valves" in the rule book. The 748 has Desmodromic Valves and is not yet legal! See the spec's on the bike here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ducati_748
If you look at the 09 ULSB rules - Twin cylinder, liquid cooled, pre-1999 model year, up to 800cc
The 748 was produced from 1994 to 2002, so as noted above, it's already ULSB legal, why block it from LW?
Actually, Eric Kelcher did rule this out. On september 11, 2008... I don't know whats up with the rulebook
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Re: Ultra light superbike.. is this legal?
« Reply #28 on: September 11, 2008, 08:15:23 AM »
Ducati 748 should not have been included as a legal machine in Ultra-Light
Wording should have been twin cylinder liquid cooled, pre 1999 model year, up to 700cc
I had not read this thread as I figured it had to do with SV650, Ninja650 for next year and was just going to let ideas flow.
The correction will be made for 2009
Quote from: skidMARK on October 23, 2009, 11:34:58 AM
85-87 for the 1000DS-What? my Duc 800 with cams, HC pistons, and some excellent mapping produces 87 rwhp and still weighs as much as the DS. The 748 has more power outright hp but the DS pulls the 748 out of the corners with the torquey grunt. Yes the 748 has more RPM to work with and thus the overrev is nice at times. It sure feels like to me that the 748 is much heavier than the SS. 748-Superbike, 1000DS-Supersport.
I'll put in my $0.02I on this subject. I love my 1000SS and we are making 100 bhp and 76.5 lb/ft of torque, but it is a very hard bike to ride fast.
Lots of resistance to turning due to the big crank, absoluely no over-rev and it really takes a lot of effort to make the most of the torque curve. With the lack of over-rev I have found that the fastest way around the track is to come out of corners at about 4500 rpm (at which point the motor puts down 60 ish bhp and 71 lb/ft of torque) so when leaned over and getting on the gas all that torque makes it very easy to spin up the rear tire unless you are carefully modulating available traction through the throttle and hanging off. I can get on the the throttle reasonably early, but it takes a lot of concentration on throttle control. With the lower engine speed it really feels like the tire is going to suddenly catch traction and snap back resulting in a nasty high side (hasn't happend to me yet, but it does scare me). Alternatively, if I go into the corner in a lower gear (higher RPM) it does feel better and is more confidence inspiring to get on the gas earlier (it is past the peak of the torque curve and generating more bhp) resulting in a better mid- to 3/4 corner exit speed; but, I end up needing to catch an up-shift while still leaned way over which kills the drive or (if done agressively) is the recipie for a nasty low side as the frame flexes combined with the balance suddenly shifting off of the rear tire to a more front-tire bias (i've had this happen twice).
So - a SV/800SS/748 rider can get more useable power to the ground while leaned over to get a good early drive out of the corner while the torque advantage of the 1000SS really doesn't manifest itself until almost all the way stood up and then you have to make up for the lost ground. This jives with the anicdotal evidence on the track - the SV guys tell me that they stay with me on the corner exits and my power advantage only seems to make a difference AFTER we are a few hundred yards down the straights. When I am chasing an SV down I typically do so on the straghts or on the brakes, not usually out-driving them immediately off of the corner.
The frame does flex a bit (maybe more than a bit) but to me that is part of the personality of the bike that I am going to ride around.
George
I still say let the 748 in.
A good rider is going to be fast whether he's on a SV650, 1000ds, 1200XB or 748. More competition isn't a bad thing. It would be nice to have a few more on the grids in the LW races.
As far as everyone saying the 1000ds is hard to steer, ride, poor frame etc... I don't understand. I really don't think its any harder to ride than any other bike, actually easier than some. Maybe I'm just not riding it hard enough or have really low standards. I don't know. It just doesn't seem as bad as everyone makes it out to be.
Quote from: funsizeracing on October 23, 2009, 04:09:57 PM
IAs far as everyone saying the 1000ds is hard to steer, ride, poor frame etc... I don't understand. I really don't think its any harder to ride than any other bike, actually easier than some. Maybe I'm just not riding it hard enough or have really low standards.
Becka - Yes, you have low standards; but I don't think that is all there is to it.
I think that you would find that if you add another 100 lbs it makes a big difference in how the frame reacts to inputs.
To my knowledge, you are one of the few, if not only small framed (little? perhaps tiny?) person that seems to have addaped well to the 1000SS. Most of us riding the bike with some success tend to be bigger/stronger guys who overcome the turn-in issue with brute force. Could it be that with your lighter weight you are able to drop the front end more and acheive more agressive stearing characteristics? Next time we are out at HPT I'll have to bring the tape measure out and see where you have front and rear ride heights.
George
Quote from: 123user on October 23, 2009, 12:51:50 PM
Rumors of the hp output of the stock 1000ds have been greatly exaggerated! A really, really good 1000ds CCS supersport LEGAL build might make 95 on a loose dyno jet... mine made 79 on a factory pro... however that converts. And take it from me, the 1000ss frame is crap! Especially when you start adding some power. Until I braced the frame, mine shook badly. My impression of the 1000ss is that its difficult to ride fast... and that seems to be a common response among others I've met that race one.
And grunt? Thats why the RC-51 can run circles around 600's, right? Oh yeah... they don't. The "grunt" makes is difficult to control, making you wait to roll on. Again we're comparing a race bike to a street bike.
Well, I also know personally of a well set-up 1000DS that produces 93-95 hp on a Superflow dyno-don't know how that converts to the factory-pro or dynojet. Pull the airbox cover and it immediately jumps 5 plus hp. My 800SS was run on the same Superflow but on a different day when it produced the 86.7 hp.
Chris Sullivan is a very fast and competent Forida rider on his DS. He is capable of running close to or matching the speeds and quickness of the fastest Bimota in the region-that's until the Bimota got the fast motor.
Becka- I have found that the SS chassis isn't that bad and like you have said, maybe I am not pushing it as much as what it can go.
I have found that my 800SS can accelerate from corners as ferocious as a 600 and shifting while leaned over has been made easy with the use of a quick-shifter. I am sure though that the 1000 would buc considerably more.
George- I am told the the resistance thingy you face can be overcome with either a different off set triple clamps and shortening the wheelbase.
My next bling will probably be some nice Attack clamps, or go the ebay way of Monster clamps. I wouldn't mind an aluminum swingarm instead of the lead anchor on the 800.
Anyone have one?
Mark
Quote from: funsizeracing on October 23, 2009, 04:09:57 PM
I still say let the 748 in.
A good rider is going to be fast whether he's on a SV650, 1000ds, 1200XB or 748. More competition isn't a bad thing. It would be nice to have a few more on the grids in the LW races.
The real solution is the 748 gets sold and with the same money, two SVs are bought with spares.....
Lightweight people don't mind competition. We do mind chasing 110+ hp down the front straight with 80-90.
While we are on the subject, I think the hp difference between a GSXR 600 and the 750 is about the same. Let's allow the 750 into Middleweight. Why not a 2005 1000? They aren't competitive in Unlimited anymore... Sounds like a good Middleweight bike to me...
It would give me some place to run my 2002 1000
Quote from: skidMARK on October 23, 2009, 04:48:07 PM
Becka- I have found that the SS chassis isn't that bad and like you have said, maybe I am not pushing it as much as what it can go.
Its not too bad for a SS machine, but its right on the limit. At 115hp, it gets pretty wonky. Plus, Becka's not exactly stressing the chassis much at 100lbs. And I specifically remember her throwing it down at HPT for no apparent reason... other than the bike bit her. They have a real problem with rear squat unloading the front.
I noticed the same thing about the 1000ds SS airbox. Pull the airbox lid... Bam! 3-4 hp. That's why I say about 95hp tops for a SS LEGAL 1000ds
It seems that al the Ducatis have a restricted intake. I heard put a $3K exhaust system on a Hypermotard and get 1 hp, then open up the intake and wham an additional 6hp on tap.
Quote from: George_Linhart on October 23, 2009, 03:45:16 PM
I'll put in my $0.02I on this subject. I love my 1000SS and we are making 100 bhp and 76.5 lb/ft of torque, but it is a very hard bike to ride fast.
Lots of resistance to turning due to the big crank, absoluely no over-rev and it really takes a lot of effort to make the most of the torque curve. With the lack of over-rev I have found that the fastest way around the track is to come out of corners at about 4500 rpm (at which point the motor puts down 60 ish bhp and 71 lb/ft of torque) so when leaned over and getting on the gas all that torque makes it very easy to spin up the rear tire unless you are carefully modulating available traction through the throttle and hanging off. I can get on the the throttle reasonably early, but it takes a lot of concentration on throttle control. With the lower engine speed it really feels like the tire is going to suddenly catch traction and snap back resulting in a nasty high side (hasn't happend to me yet, but it does scare me). Alternatively, if I go into the corner in a lower gear (higher RPM) it does feel better and is more confidence inspiring to get on the gas earlier (it is past the peak of the torque curve and generating more bhp) resulting in a better mid- to 3/4 corner exit speed; but, I end up needing to catch an up-shift while still leaned way over which kills the drive or (if done agressively) is the recipie for a nasty low side as the frame flexes combined with the balance suddenly shifting off of the rear tire to a more front-tire bias (i've had this happen twice).
So - a SV/800SS/748 rider can get more useable power to the ground while leaned over to get a good early drive out of the corner while the torque advantage of the 1000SS really doesn't manifest itself until almost all the way stood up and then you have to make up for the lost ground. This jives with the anicdotal evidence on the track - the SV guys tell me that they stay with me on the corner exits and my power advantage only seems to make a difference AFTER we are a few hundred yards down the straights. When I am chasing an SV down I typically do so on the straghts or on the brakes, not usually out-driving them immediately off of the corner.
The frame does flex a bit (maybe more than a bit) but to me that is part of the personality of the bike that I am going to ride around.
George
Just my 2 cents:
The DS is not nearly as bad as everyone makes it out to be. Mine is stock, only chassis mods are a lengthened and resprung / revalved shock and GMD revalved stock forks. I weigh 200 pounds sans gear.
The bike makes 86 Dynojet HP with the airbox lid intact, 91 without. 395 LBS on the asra scales this weekend. It has a lightwieght fairing bracket, bodywork, power commander, and slip ons. That's it. Oh yeah and a high flow breather.
I ran 2:05's at Daytona on pirellis in supersport trim. Yes the chassis flexes in the high speed corners, and over the bumps. But I don't have turn in problems. Supposedly mine is the best handling SS that came out of Moto Corse, It has been ridden by alot of different (i.e. faster)guys. I'd be happy to share my geometry and setup info. I've been tinkering with it since I got the bike in 2004.
Interestingly, I make most of my time up on the drive out of the corner, even over the bumps I can get on the gas pretty hard and early. It rarely spins up. Even coming out of the barrel turn in Daytona, I'm winding the throttle wide open over the bumps. I find I don't have that much top end advantage over the SV's (but I do have some...) but who knows what they have inside thier motors. Could be my Power Commander needs a little tweaking, too. The Buells and BMW's are at least 5MPH faster on the banking, I can stay with the Bimotas in the draft but no way the XB12's. Again no idea what's in the motor.
I'm no superman, just making the point that setup is everything, I look around the shop and I'm amazed at the range of setups on the 800 / 1000's. I think a common mistake is raising the rear too far to keep the pipes from dragging and to get the bike to turn quicker. Raise the rear but raise the front too, better stability under braking, bike falls into corners better and the rear is more stable. If you just raise the rear it will turn in better, but then tops out under drive and you get the spin up. Mine is sensitive enough that when I change the gearing for Daytona, it will squat a bit more at the rear on the drive out because the chain / swingarm angle is reduced. I compensated this year by changing the front sprocket instead of just putting a tiny rear on. I still had to put a few turns on the shock to help it finish the corner.
Yeah, no overrev, and not much power above 7500 RPM, but hey, it's no superbike! I'm sure it might change things by adding a bunch of HP. Still a fun and solid bike, IMHO.
Quote from: 123user on October 23, 2009, 03:15:39 PM
Ducati 748 should not have been included as a legal machine in Ultra-Light
Wording should have been twin cylinder liquid cooled, pre 1999 model year, up to 700cc
I had not read this thread as I figured it had to do with SV650, Ninja650 for next year and was just going to let ideas flow.
The correction will be made for 2009
Bugger, looking at the rules, a pre 99 748 was looking pretty slick with that rules combo.
SS build, only you'd be allowed to muck with the airbox, so you could get reasonable HP without getting into the motor, and run it in MWSS or ULSB, and thanks to LRRS' rule tweak of not allowing liquid cooled twins 650cc or less in ULSB, you wouldn't be putting up with SVs in either class. Still have a porker of a bike compared to a modern MW, but a good chassis, and I'm partial to Ducs...
So much for my never going to happen slick cheater bike.
Quote from: Gino230 on October 23, 2009, 10:28:51 PM
If you just raise the rear it will turn in better, but then tops out under drive and you get the spin up. Mine is sensitive enough that when I change the gearing for Daytona, it will squat a bit more at the rear on the drive out because the chain / swingarm angle is reduced. I compensated this year by changing the front sprocket instead of just putting a tiny rear on. I still had to put a few turns on the shock to help it finish the corner.
Gino - As you say, these bikes are really sensitive to set-up. I've made huge improvements from stock and already have done the custom triple clamps and offset stearing bearings. I also lightened the crank considerably. These made turn in much easier, but not as easy as some other bikes. To get the rear traction that I need I intend to make changes this winter, part of it is suspension, part of it is wheel base and and part of it is likely going to require messing with the front end (I am not sure at this point if It should be raising or lowering but will do some testing). I have noticed that even minor changes to wheel base makes a huge difference so next year I am going to see if changing chains and pushing the rear wheel back in the adjusters can allow me to get on throttle earlier.
I do really like my 1000SS, but, it is a bike that takes time and effort to ride fast.
George
George,
What brand tires are you using?
Quote from: skidMARK on October 24, 2009, 07:15:58 AM
George,
What brand tires are you using?
I have been running Pirelli slicks for the past 2 seasons.
Didn't Pirelli come out with some new/better tires in 2009? Are the slicks improved also?
I am curious as to what clamps you are using and I presume you mean the adjustable offset clamps?
I noticed that while learning and riding Marc Miller's 748 there is a considerable difference using the Michelin V Power one. Very easy turn in.
Mark
George,
Funny you should mention the wheelbase, I think mine is longer than most. I recently sold some bodywork to Chris Sullivan who runs custom triples and the chain adjuster is almost all the way forward- he had to cut two or three inches off of my lower to make it fit his bike.
Maybe the longer wheelbase and higher all around ride height is better than shorter wheelbase / more agressive geometry? Like I said, I'd be glad to share my settings....not that my bike is perfect, but it might help to see where it compares.
Also, turn in effort to me might be light, but then I cut my teeth riding these SS ducs so maybe I'm used to it? The 996 and 1098 I ride occasionally feel like they have much lighter steering.
Also, I'm using DOT Pirellis. As you know there is much more to slicks than just lack of tread- the softer rubber sometimes is compensated for with a stiffer carcas and / or different profile- I had a buddy who has a very tough time with high speed wobble on his SS- He uses a slick front and a DOT rear. Sometimes when you add wheels or different tires into the equation, you get all kinds of funny results.
Hey Gino,
I think your geometry is pretty much stock and we have all modeled our bikes to mimic yours. I know that Tony's SS was lowered to obtain these results after previously lifted by a reputable suspension shop. Tony seems to like the new geometry/stock.
Mark
I never noticed a problem with the rear squatting and running wide while mine was SS spec. After adding 30 hp, it wouldn't drive out of corner. I made some different triples (23mm offset) to increase trail, then increased the swingarm angle to about 13 degrees from horizontal. The stock swingarm angle is about 10 degrees. Now it drives out great... no squat, and the front only lifts from power, except it now shook scarily strait up and down. After I welded a brace tube between the two engine mounts it stopped shaking.
Wow! 23 mm offset? Got another set?
Mark
Quote from: Ducmarc on October 13, 2009, 09:15:24 PM
ya mark he's got 40+ hp on you and better drive and better aerodynamics s it's a wonder your paint didn't peel off . and 30k was a stock bike those gas charged olins are 20k and he's spent atleast 20k in the motor then the motec and the carbon and the wheels and the new throttlebodys i bet he's got 90k in it plus he's a good smooth rider. so to stay in touch with him is an accomplishment and a chance to beat him even better you got to admit it's fun to make him nervious on the old junk pile of ours just hope he dosn't go to a 748rs or 749r
Sounds like I'm going on a mission with my Honda F2. Oh yes, I can!!! I'm going to prove a point.
Quote from: skidMARK on October 24, 2009, 03:41:22 PM
Wow! 23 mm offset? Got another set?
They took me about 40 hours to make in the mill, but have a lot of contour work. Thats the problem with all the commercially available stuff (other than the fact that they cost too much) not enough adjustment. You'll also need a (much) longer shock eye to get the swingarm angle up there... then, when you do, you need 16T front sprocket to keep the chain from pulling squat. I was very heavy, @250lbs, so my squat problems were bad enough to make the bike unrideable quickly... a lighter rider would probably not notice.
Life is much easier when you have a complete machine shop in your garage!
someone needs to let becka ride a good 748 she sounds like the size the factory built it for . mark i don't like compairing bikes with sullivan's he has a real good bike and his all or nothing riding style makes up a lot of lap time . I'm still not convinced the duel spark SS is that much better than my carberated 900 it's 310 lbs 95 hp .the crank was lightened by Ben fox with Carrillo's total loss barely a flywheel 748 trans 944kit jugs cut down till the pistons touch the biggest v2 cams they make duel plugged big valves ported paper thin home made spaghetti exhaust bored 41 flats with fuel pumps the usual frame bracing and good forks and shock it pulls good to 10k and will ring out 11 if i need it. simple electronics no puter to slow you down. ask suillivan or fernando how fast it is . he turned the same lap times as G rods' DS at homestead with front end chatter. i just don't do it justice. I need to go through it and find a little more hp. the 748 has a Cadillac frame what a difference go to a track day abuse my self on the 900 or ride in style on 748 eldorado. of course it has a real superbike shock and forks off maladin's 97 superbike
Quote from: Ducmarc on October 24, 2009, 08:30:36 PM
I'm still not convinced the duel spark SS is that much better than my carberated 900 it's 310 lbs 95 hp .
Its not! But a dual spark with flatsides is! I was a big believer in FI until I put the FCR's on my DS. I spent hours and hours on the dyno working with Ultimap ecu. The best I could muster was 92hp (on a factory pro), After a little tuning on the flatsides it was @ 98hp (again, on a Factory Pro)... I was smiling, the dyno operator was shaking his head in disbelief! Of course thats with a 1078 kit, total loss, V2 cams, 47mm intake valves, and highly massaged heads.
that was i was thinking need some basic ignition and throw all that fuel infestation and computers away save weight and rev it till it won't turn anymore. everyone worries about rpm but the bottom is good to atleast 10,000 and probably 11 safely but you can't do it with the factory computer talked with jeff nash a few years ago and he had a 66mm crank in is 900 and really liked that the best. it would rev easy and had all the overrev you needed i think the 72mm crank limits the motor to muchon the 1000. you need to hang the air cooled heads on an 1198 shorter stroke and gaint bore.
Google "ignitech". These units are available from california cycleworks and are soooo easy! If your running total loss its just a couple of wires and utilizes the std FI ducat ignition pickup. Best part: only $200
I'm running one on my DS, it performs flawlessly. The only thing I noticed was that it was a little more sensitive to the air gap on the ignition pickup.
A note on the ds revvin' Mine would rev until it blew, but even with serious heads and cams, power past 8K has been elusive.
i heard there was a new system out there. i think i can ebay my boxes and be money ahead
The Ignitech TCIP4 system is soooo easy... and $200!!! Just solder 3 wires and go. Its got drivers for exhaust servo and input for TPS (for the spark timing) if you're into that sort of thing.
They also sell an aftermarket Magnet-Marelli 5.9 ecu that competes w/the Nemesis. I can't vouch for its reliability, but anythings gotta be easier than the FIM ecu, which works great, but is a pain in the a$$ to map.
Quote from: Ducmarc on October 27, 2009, 12:14:52 PM
i heard there was a new system out there. i think i can ebay my boxes and be money ahead
For which bike?
What about a provision for a quick-shifter? I have been spoiled.
Mark
mainly the carberated kind but i'm also interested in the ecu
I am wondering about the 800, going to flatslides, but then would I lose the quickshifter? Would I also have wasted all that money I have already put into it?
you can keep all the electronics an throw the TB's down or you could ride ye'ol clanker i've started back to work on it for next year wait till you see this contraption.
Quote from: George_Linhart on October 23, 2009, 04:31:34 PM
Becka - Yes, you have low standards; but I don't think that is all there is to it.
I think that you would find that if you add another 100 lbs it makes a big difference in how the frame reacts to inputs.
To my knowledge, you are one of the few, if not only small framed (little? perhaps tiny?) person that seems to have addaped well to the 1000SS. Most of us riding the bike with some success tend to be bigger/stronger guys who overcome the turn-in issue with brute force. Could it be that with your lighter weight you are able to drop the front end more and acheive more agressive stearing characteristics? Next time we are out at HPT I'll have to bring the tape measure out and see where you have front and rear ride heights.
George
Ooooh, you guys should try an S2R; mine now actually turns in way easier than the '96, which was always pretty good in the first place. Maybe it's the lack of bodywork...