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Racing Discussion => Racing Discussion => Topic started by: ahastings on December 03, 2009, 03:54:32 PM

Title: CCS/ASRA cuts payouts again this year
Post by: ahastings on December 03, 2009, 03:54:32 PM
the new license mailer is out and  CCS/ASRA has cut purses again. this has been the trend for about the last 5 years now that I know of, not just since the economy has gone sour. I remember back when Fusa had good payouts and used to draw lots of national riders. I wonder if they are cutting expenses in the wrong areas. Maybe cutting payouts causes smaller grids. I know it has an effect on what I will race. Maybe deeper payouts would encourage more people to sign up. So CCS you cut purses and less people sign up, so you cut purses more and even less people sign up, cutting purses is obviously not working.
Title: Re: CCS/ASRA cuts payouts again this year
Post by: Xian_13 on December 03, 2009, 05:14:22 PM
I really don't see why they bother cutting the purses.
Using the methods they are ready have in place, not to pay... seem to work just fine.

XIII
Title: Re: CCS/ASRA cuts payouts again this year
Post by: XFACTOR on December 03, 2009, 05:37:42 PM
Quote from: Xian_13 on December 03, 2009, 05:14:22 PM
I really don't see why they bother cutting the purses.
Using the methods they are ready have in place, not to pay... seem to work just fine.

XIII
LOL       
Title: Re: CCS/ASRA cuts payouts again this year
Post by: ahastings on December 03, 2009, 07:17:57 PM
Quote from: Xian_13 on December 03, 2009, 05:14:22 PM
I really don't see why they bother cutting the purses.
Using the methods they are ready have in place, not to pay... seem to work just fine.

XIII
I do have to say they have paid me every time except one and they are working on that now.
Title: Re: CCS/ASRA cuts payouts again this year
Post by: Mouse on December 03, 2009, 07:23:48 PM
Well Dang.
That reminds me..... thanks for helping me setup that XTRM account X.  I still have money sitting out on that card.
Title: Re: CCS/ASRA cuts payouts again this year
Post by: sasrocks on December 03, 2009, 08:06:33 PM
yea the economy has nothing to do with smaller grids. Its all the size of the purse. The fact that CCS lost Motosport as a title sponsor might also have had something to do with it...
Title: Re: CCS/ASRA cuts payouts again this year
Post by: ahastings on December 03, 2009, 08:51:13 PM
I didnt say it had nothing to do with it, but I have been racing with ccs now since 2003 and the purses have been cut almost every year since then, this is not something new since the economy has dropped. then we get the midatlantic region races spread all the way down to cmp and daytona and not using 2 of the races at njmp right in our region. I will not be trying to defend my #1 plate this year with that ridiculous of a region and it is not because of the economy as my job has not changed it is because of the changes in CCS
Title: Re: CCS/ASRA cuts payouts again this year
Post by: Ducmarc on December 03, 2009, 09:29:46 PM
you know CART and IRL merged cuz they did not have enough cars AFL and NFL merged for more teams . maybe we need to think about CCS and WERA  then throw in AHRMA for the vintage guys and the grids would be full again.   Na just keep things like they are and we will make rasins not wine
Title: Re: CCS/ASRA cuts payouts again this year
Post by: truckstop on December 03, 2009, 11:13:41 PM
Quote from: Ducmarc on December 03, 2009, 09:29:46 PM
you know CART and IRL merged cuz they did not have enough cars AFL and NFL merged for more teams . maybe we need to think about CCS and WERA  then throw in AHRMA for the vintage guys and the grids would be full again.   Na just keep things like they are and we will make rasins not wine

WERA has vintage classes, leave AHRMA out of it.
Title: Re: CCS/ASRA cuts payouts again this year
Post by: Super Dave on December 04, 2009, 05:25:08 AM
In perspective, 2003 had rockin' purses with the FUSA series.  That was good money.  That was Clear Channel Entertainment era, and there were some promises made by manufacturers that never came through that year.  I believe that CCE's CCS took it in the butt on that.  Yes, purses have dropped since then. 

As for merging?  Can't see it happening. 
Title: Re: CCS/ASRA cuts payouts again this year
Post by: CCS on December 04, 2009, 06:31:39 PM
It is funny you say smaller purses dropped entries...Unlimited GP had the $1000 to $1040 per class payout from the 1990's to 2008 and the entries kept dropping (from a 20 bike average in 1999 to a 9 bike average over those years). We even tried qualifying to raise the entries and they just kept dropping. Even when we paid to tenth in Unlimited GP more than half the time we didn't have 10 riders in the class the last two seasons meaning CCS paid out sometimes double what was paid in entry fees. (It took an average of 13 entries per class to make the $1040 it paid. Let's not even bring up CCS Sportbike where we never averaged 10 entries anyway.) GT entries went this way too before we cut those purses but after several seasons we've actually seen the GT numbers increasing the last two years.

There is a point unfortunately where you have to look at the bigger picture. Do you disappoint 8 to 10 riders a weekend who are running Unlimited GP by dropping the purse, or do you benefit the other 175 riders by not raising entry or gate fees. In this case, we decided the needs of the many outweight the wants of the few.

Super Dave is right, FUSA/CCS/Clear Channel took a $2,500,000 hit in that first season, then $1,000,000 the second year all the way to 2005 when it only lost $125,000 and they pulled the plug. The big factory teams never showed, unless you consider the Hooters Suzuki a big factory team, and that meant no spectators to defray the costs. That Series was doomed from the start unfortunately.

I'd love to continue this, but I do not have the time to go over the entire 9 years since Becki sold CCS to Pace/SFX/Clear Channel and all the things we went through.

Please believe me when I say we are doing everything we can to keep this series going. With that being said, we appreciate all the support we've gotten from Y'all over the year.

Thank you all.
Title: Re: CCS/ASRA cuts payouts again this year
Post by: Super Dave on December 04, 2009, 06:45:41 PM
I'm with Kevin, obviously because he has data...

But, yes, I fully remember when we had the Sportbike program at the club level, with a purse even, and, even though it had a real purse, it didn't attract a whole lot of rider entries.  It attracted me as I have always been on a tighter budget, and I wanted and needed the opportunity for money coming back in.  Similarly, in 2006 with ULGP qualifying and a purse and my health and bike problems that year, often, ULGP was the only class I was entering.  I wasn't winning, but I could get something back.  And, again, there didn't seem to be the number of riders that I would expect for a head to head opportunity to take even a little bit of money home. 

Renting a race track will also put one through a few things too.  As the markets collapsed starting in probably around May of 2001, then 9/11, insurance rates went up dramatically following that.  Sure, CCS is able to buy in "bulk" with an opportunity for some efficiency on their part that they pass on in the form of some consistency in entry fees over time, but each year for me renting was harder and harder to figure out what to do to keep prices reasonable. 

Title: Re: CCS/ASRA cuts payouts again this year
Post by: ahastings on December 04, 2009, 07:27:31 PM
Hopefully we won't lose contingency too. See I am just a blue collar worker and I have been racing steady for 6 years now, but if I can't offset my costs with winnings I can't afford it unfortunately. I have worked hard to bring my skill level up to being a front running expert, but if there isnt any payout other then a trophy I might as well just go do a trackday. If it weren't for Michelins awesome payout last year I would not have been able to chase the MidAtlantic overall championship. I hope they return with as good of a program this year.
Title: Re: CCS/ASRA cuts payouts again this year
Post by: Garywc on December 04, 2009, 08:43:57 PM
what about offfering the purse for a class that has people who race in it like a 600 class instead of a unlimited class. who rides a 1000 anyway? if there are only 10 entries it would have been the first thing i would have done was switch it to a class that can cover it with the entry fees.
might have already been tried.
Title: Re: CCS/ASRA cuts payouts again this year
Post by: Ducmarc on December 04, 2009, 10:46:23 PM
i tend to wonder if payouts even affect grid sizes looking at kevins info.   this year i tryed to help thunderbike out by offering a small payout 75 50 and 25 bucks. i get some PR and the class gets a little boost. i don't think we had 1 extra entry. i really thought that one of the faster riders would borrow someone's 748 or bimota and pickup a quick 75 bucks but nothing.   if i offer a payout again i might do the last 3 riders in amatur ultalight that might add a few.  i think there are 2 or 3 riders that have a hammer lock on each class  and the rest are out having a trackday.  it's like this weekend in light weight there are 2 guys that will win all the lightweight races if they show up. i'm sure middle and heavy are the same.  amatur maybe the only classes where there is some chance of different winners
Title: Re: CCS/ASRA cuts payouts again this year
Post by: tug296 on December 05, 2009, 12:07:51 AM
I've been proud to support the Championship Cup Series with real money from year one, 1983 or so.
Always on a outdated bike with not much chance of winning.
There were 81 entries one year in Am Unlimted Superbike, I'd guess that not many were there to win purse money.

Money was never a motivating factor for me to race,  knew I wouldn't make a living at it when I couldn't keep up with Schwantz.
The wife is putting some old video I shot on DVD's from years back, tonight we watched Colin Edwards in CCS at Daytona whoop the field when he was 16.
There's lots of good long  history with CCS, whatever it takes to keep the series going should take precedent over a drop in purse money for a certain class.

Ducmarc has a good idea, I also would like to put up some money at the Jennings GP round next year, wouldn't want to see Mike Smith come and sand bag it home though.
Support the Sport.







Title: Re: CCS/ASRA cuts payouts again this year
Post by: Super Dave on December 05, 2009, 08:14:05 AM
Guys, to follow a little with your thoughts, CCS had purse paying middleweight class some years back called Sportbike.  That went away for the reasons Kevin gave, it didn't attract enough entries to pay for itself, let alone the track time that it took during the event weekend.

In 2004 at Blackhawk, a generous person and lover of motorcycle racing put up a reasonable purse in Middleweight Grand Prix.  I think he did this in a couple of other classes too.  Might have been in unlimited and a lightweight class too during particular events.  I know that one of those weekends at Blackhawk was very, very full, I think there were around 850 entries, August of 2004, Kevin? 

Anyway, Kevin, just talking out loud, it's rough to pay for purse races all the time.  I think in 2003 we had the three GT solo classes, Sportbike, and Unlimited GP.  That along with the very, very good payouts in FUSA.  Comparing that to 2004, it was harder to commit to the whole series with the reduction in purse, an opportunity for a return on investment.  But when Russ put up that money, it was a good attraction. 

Maybe it is in CCS's interest to offer some kind of purse program, but offer it at select club events to drive certain weekends and certain classes.  Not just ULGP.  Formula One and Unlimited Grand Prix classes, while representing the idea of a run-what-ya-brung class, isn't relevant so much to the current state of production, street going racing motorcycles.  We'll never see the state of racing like the Michigan Grand Prix with TZ500's and 700's with components off of newer bikes, racers don't build big block 1100's.  Even world championship racing is filled with rules and restrictions. 
Title: Re: CCS/ASRA cuts payouts again this year
Post by: CCS on December 05, 2009, 08:25:06 AM
There will be contingency again this year, but the amounts are still up in the air. We are working with companies other than Pirelli to offer some more great things for all of you, but until the ink is on the paper, I can't tell you what they are..or I'd have to kill you..  :biggrin:
Title: Re: CCS/ASRA cuts payouts again this year
Post by: Garywc on December 05, 2009, 08:40:23 PM
the way i look at it I am there to race and have some fun. if there is a payout it makes it that much better but if not i will still do some racing anyway. and i am sure most other people will to
Title: Re: CCS/ASRA cuts payouts again this year
Post by: skiandclimb on December 06, 2009, 07:55:05 AM
I read this post, and was reminded of one of our local shop owners- Jerry Davidson of WFO Motorsports (STL/IL). Jerry put up purse money at the MCRA Challenge Series @ Gateway, and the draw of riders increased. Jerry's shop is a smaller one, and he did this on his own accord.  I just wanted to publicly thank him for giving so much back to our sport.

Maybe this is the future of contingency/purse money for this racing organization???  Regardless of future payouts, it is great to see local businesses doing something to promote our sport.  Kudos also to those, here, who have stepped up with purse monies. Racing for money shouldn't be the goal of a club level racer, but it definitely helps defray the inherent costs....even if it's just winning back your entry fee.

-Ski
Title: Re: CCS/ASRA cuts payouts again this year
Post by: F2RGK on December 07, 2009, 01:01:42 AM
Quote from: Ducmarc on December 04, 2009, 10:46:23 PM
i tend to wonder if payouts even affect grid sizes looking at kevins info.   this year i tryed to help thunderbike out by offering a small payout 75 50 and 25 bucks. i get some PR and the class gets a little boost. i don't think we had 1 extra entry. i really thought that one of the faster riders would borrow someone's 748 or bimota and pickup a quick 75 bucks but nothing.   if i offer a payout again i might do the last 3 riders in amatur ultalight that might add a few.  i think there are 2 or 3 riders that have a hammer lock on each class  and the rest are out having a trackday.  it's like this weekend in light weight there are 2 guys that will win all the lightweight races if they show up. i'm sure middle and heavy are the same.  amatur maybe the only classes where there is some chance of different winners

I was there with a few bike issues that I had to work out this year.  Overall, my season was over because I started this year late.  2010 is another year!  Carburetion?  What's that? The cubans don't know enough about Thunderbike let alone run an older bike, just my experience here in Florida.  That doesn't mean I've forgotten or didn't appreciate the offer, I know better.  As far as a Bimota or 748, which in my opinion is overrated for that class, people got the wrong idea of what to ride for that class.  No offense to Mendez, but riding an air cooled bike at 135hp or better is not what Thunderbike was intended initially.  How can you expect someone to run a modern bike with all of that technology, and expect someone to spend an exhorbitant amount of cash to compete in that class?  It was designed for the older bikes, F2's, SV's, and Buell's (which can be built extreme) but were competetive.  That was a loophole for the Bimota!!  As an Fyi-I'm not bitching....I just have to go faster....and I know I can!! 
Title: Re: CCS/ASRA cuts payouts again this year
Post by: roadracer162 on December 08, 2009, 04:22:46 PM
My take of it: I certainly appreciated what Marc Miller did for the Thunderbike race and wondered myself why others didn't join in. marc did allow me to ride his 748 in the class with the intention of a little PR for European Performance Cycles and just for the fun of it. Our first real race weekend foiund we could go pretty well with worn out tires and an Ebay bike.

The 748 of old was a Middlweight bike back then. The FZR600 which I own and have ridden in the past and the F2 are also middleweight bikes of the past. The SV is considered racing up a class along with the Bimota which is the new Lightweight class killer, at least in Florida.

Kevin is one fast dude and the Bimota is one fast bike, but 135rwhp I would surely doubt. I believe that Marc's 748 can keep up and maybe even be a tick faster-if only I knew how to ride. Of course dyno hp numbers are relative to what dyno is used. My FZR600 produced 106rwhp on one dyno and then some 10 hp less on the Prieto dyno. I know my FZR is no match for the 748 that I am currently riding for Marc.

I also believe that the FZR600 and the SV are a pretty good match. I would have to include the F2 in that group but I do believe that the F2 is a tick faster than my FZR600. I can only go on what I know or have observed for myself.

I do smile when I ride especially when I am "bringin it" on one one of those old bikes.

Mark
Title: Re: CCS/ASRA cuts payouts again this year
Post by: yetidave on December 09, 2009, 08:22:54 AM
As bad as it sucks that purses are dropping again, I find it far more disappointing that one of this seasons ASRA national champions has yet to receive his purse money. Many tens of thousands of dollars were spent to put him in position to win those #1 plates, and now he's waiting for his payout. I wonder if ASRA would have been willing to wait this long for it's entry fees into those races? I'm sure they would have, right?   
Title: Re: CCS/ASRA cuts payouts again this year
Post by: ahastings on December 09, 2009, 09:08:22 AM
did he email eric about it? Eric is usually pretty good about answering emails timely
Title: Re: CCS/ASRA cuts payouts again this year
Post by: yetidave on December 09, 2009, 09:55:04 AM
Emails, phone calls, more phone calls, etc. No money as of yet. If this is the way the national champ is treated, I can't imagine how bad it is for everyone else.
Title: Re: CCS/ASRA cuts payouts again this year
Post by: d-wire on December 12, 2009, 10:41:38 AM
It's not suprising to me that money is being cut....... But we have to find a way to keep guys involved in this sport for more than 3 yrs.  I know you can't make money for people and the money in club racing comes from the racers.......but we have seen what racers will do and the lengths they will go to, to get to the track and race if there is just the smallest hope of breaking even.  The reality is that a ton of guys have run themselves into credit card debt chasing friggin tire contingency and the odd $200....imagine if we had a proper purse to go after. LOL.

With things the way they are in AMA pro there are a lot of fast guys sitting around.  If there was a decent purse to go after, I'm guessing they would come and put on a hell of a show while they're at it.  Just my $.02

HD puts on a hell of a show with the "shootout" down here in FL.....I say hell of a show compared to any other club stuff I've seen.  I've seen it draw....Cardenas, Barney, Hayes, Chuck Graves, Rich Oliver, Robertino Pietri, Stokes, Mike Smith, and many more.  Maybe CCS could do something similar in the other regions and have a couple sponsors chip in some money....get that purse up to a decent amount and all of sudden guys like Geoff May....will probably start looking at their practice bike and showing up, especially on a SUZ or KAW weekend.  All of a sudden you have a show that brings in spectators.
Title: Re: CCS/ASRA cuts payouts again this year
Post by: Eric Kelcher on December 12, 2009, 11:57:59 AM
Quote from: yetidave on December 09, 2009, 09:55:04 AM
Emails, phone calls, more phone calls, etc. No money as of yet. If this is the way the national champ is treated, I can't imagine how bad it is for everyone else.

Dave,

I don't have any open status requests at the moment for any of the ASRA champions.  I have a few 2-3 that people have called without details that I left messages for awaiting dates classes to research those concerns.

If there is anyone that thinks they may be missing contingency awards please email the following
form
http://ccsracing.us/forms/2009/contingency/contingency%20status%20form.pdf
   
Title: Re: CCS/ASRA cuts payouts again this year
Post by: yetidave on December 12, 2009, 12:58:34 PM
Seriously, Eric? Paul has been chasing his money since the season ended. I'll let him know that he needs to start from square one again.