I propose that CCS move to allowing racers to use slicks in every race. Let's not kid anybody here, we're racing; we aren't on the street. And this isn't 1999 where street tires were actually being used on the track. We buy RACE tires, even when we are buying DOTs. It really doesn't make any sense to limit the SS classes any more. If people were trying to bring street machines and be competitive I'd see the continued point, but that just isn't the case.
That would be nice, if it weren't for the superbikes racing SS. At least the tire requirement will keep some of them out.
Quote from: vnvbandit on September 15, 2011, 12:41:19 PM
That would be nice, if it weren't for the superbikes racing SS. At least the tire requirement will keep some of them out.
Who says it actually does keep them out?! :D
Quote from: mikendzel on September 15, 2011, 08:42:08 AMAnd this isn't 1999 where street tires were actually being used on the track. We buy RACE tires, even when we are buying DOTs.
Well, even in the late 80's the street DOT tires we were using for racing weren't "street tires".
WERA is moving on this. It would save a lot of racers money and make CCS money and the slicks really arent any better now than the DOTs in many cases they are actually outdated.
We'll see............... WERA is still hung up on double bubble windscreens! :spank:
Windscreens for the SV of either type are getting hard to find. :banghead:
We should just cut the supersport classes altogether. The fastest guys are running supersport legal 600's anyways. Probably could cut middleweight and heavyweight too. Just leave unlimited superbike. It'll be a run what you brung class.
Quote from: vnvbandit on September 18, 2011, 09:41:32 AM
We'll see............... WERA is still hung up on double bubble windscreens! :spank:
Windscreens for the SV of either type are getting hard to find. :banghead:
You need to read the WERA rulebook again.
Quote from: ride_hard on September 20, 2011, 10:51:20 PM
We should just cut the supersport classes altogether. The fastest guys are running supersport legal 600's anyways. Probably could cut middleweight and heavyweight too. Just leave unlimited superbike. It'll be a run what you brung class.
That rules out the MFGs ever coming back to club racing. And its the only class keeping bikes within reason. The reason those fast guys are running SS bikes in the other classes is because of the SS class, if you get rid of it they will be on SBs.
Did I miss something?
4. SUPERSTOCK:
H. Tinted windscreens are allowed, double bubble type windscreens are not
Yes, the bold text that says there are no bodywork restrictions in LW classes.
So if the slicks offer no advantage then everyone should be running dot tires. Seemingly a mute point
Quote from: majicMARKer on September 22, 2011, 09:04:53 PM
Seemingly a mute point
I couldn't hear that.. What did you say again?
Quote from: benprobst on September 22, 2011, 02:56:20 PM
Yes, the bold text that says there are no bodywork restrictions in LW classes.
Kewl, I missed that
Quote from: Cowboy 6 on September 22, 2011, 09:56:17 PM
I couldn't hear that.. What did you say again?
Damn auto-spell. "Moot point"
Quote from: Cowboy 6 on September 22, 2011, 09:56:17 PM
I couldn't hear that.. What did you say again?
They last longer and in many cases are available when DOTs are not.
My direct experience is with the Michelin Power one(DOT), the Bridgestone slick and the Bridgestone Bt090(DOT). The BT090 is not a fair comparison to the Bridgestone slick, but speaking to another fellow racer using the Bridgestone slick and the Bridgestone BT003 he reports the slick and BT003 are virtually the same as far as performance and wear. My observation of the Power One and the Bridgestone slick offers the same mileage depending on compound(100 laps for a soft compound). Lap times remain fairly consistent at my pace(may not be blazingly fast) and drop off no more than a second off my personal best at a particular track. I have had it where I get my personal best on the 87th lap of that 100 or so laps.
Quote from: majicMARKer on September 23, 2011, 06:59:57 PM
My direct experience is with the Michelin Power one(DOT), the Bridgestone slick and the Bridgestone Bt090(DOT). The BT090 is not a fair comparison to the Bridgestone slick, but speaking to another fellow racer using the Bridgestone slick and the Bridgestone BT003 he reports the slick and BT003 are virtually the same as far as performance and wear. My observation of the Power One and the Bridgestone slick offers the same mileage depending on compound(100 laps for a soft compound). Lap times remain fairly consistent at my pace(may not be blazingly fast) and drop off no more than a second off my personal best at a particular track. I have had it where I get my personal best on the 87th lap of that 100 or so laps.
Thats all good and fine on a LW bike with pretty quick times. Things are a little different with really fast guys on big bikes. For me, it would be great to be able to run the slick front all the time while running DOT rears from Michelin. The DOT front from Michelin is often faster than the slick depending on the track but is only capable of maintaining those laptimes for about 60% of the time that the slick does.
It also means less tires and money invested in bringing stock to the track for the vendors, something all of us need to try and support if we want them to keep coming. Most people wouldnt believe how little is made selling tires on moderate to slow weekends.
Agreed on the point of the tire vendors. I took a look at becoming a tire vendor and it just didn't seem like a good risk for a new and upcoming tire. There is just not that much to be made as a tire vendor unless you sell enough.
I was merely stating my own experience at my speed and on considerably slower bikes ranging from the little FZR400 and up to the Ducati 748 that I currently race.
Quote from: benprobst on September 23, 2011, 03:04:46 PM
They last longer and in many cases are available when DOTs are not.
Well, that helped your post count...
All of you guys making the case that DOT's are as fast as slicks are just helping me make my point. Basically there is zero reason to require DOT's anymore; they aren't made for the street, we are racing on racetracks, and if they're as good as slicks, there is no advantage to running slicks. It will simplify things, period.
Quote from: Cowboy 6 on September 25, 2011, 06:53:11 AM
Well, that helped your post count...
Edit,
Nevermind, just reread the thread. Obviously missed something somewhere!
I'm all for slicks being allowed in SuperSport. I race a 1000 and perfer slicks to dot's because on bikes with 180hp plus to the rear wheel they do offer more grip and are safer IMO. Also beside the fact of having to spend money on another set of tires, it's alot of work to change back and forth. It will be more cost effective for sure. I would love to see this rule change for all classes.
Quote from: majicMARKer on September 22, 2011, 09:04:53 PM
So if the slicks offer no advantage then everyone should be running dot tires. Seemingly a mute point
The slicks do tent to last long in terms of wear. This is according to the guys I hang with that run slicks. I just run DOT's cause I run some SS classes.
It seems like the rules are MORE important for the smaller (LW, MW) classes, where a small advantage could make a big difference in lap time. The big bikes have so much HP, the rules matter a little less...for most of us mere mortals anyway.
The rules are important though, as someone else pointed out, it's the only thing keeping blatant cheating from going on.
SS is an important class, it allows riders on a budget to be competitive in at least one class. Big HP is expensive, especially down here in FL where big HP also usually comes with gas charged forks, carbon wheels, etc....
Quote from: Gino230 on October 25, 2011, 12:34:30 PM
It seems like the rules are MORE important for the smaller (LW, MW) classes, where a small advantage could make a big difference in lap time. The big bikes have so much HP, the rules matter a little less...for most of us mere mortals anyway.
The rules are important though, as someone else pointed out, it's the only thing keeping blatant cheating from going on.
SS is an important class, it allows riders on a budget to be competitive in at least one class. Big HP is expensive, especially down here in FL where big HP also usually comes with gas charged forks, carbon wheels, etc....
Tire choice is the least of your problems attempting to compete in LW SS.
For my ducati I use pirelli slicks most of the time.When I use dot's my lap times are still the same.Only advantage is slicks last longer for me,not lap times.I get 300mi on a front and i still cant ware it out,4 to 5 race weekends just have to change it of the miles.The rear last me 200 mi easy and can still use it for practice after that.On my SV I do 5 race weekends on the same set front and back dot's.
Quote from: grasslander on October 26, 2011, 07:17:33 PM
Tire choice is the least of your problems attempting to compete in LW SS.
Agreed - most of the "prblems" are the rule set....I honestly think it costs more to have/build a competitive LW SS bike than a MW SS bike...
Racing middleweight i think would be alot less money to race.In lightweight there is so many bikes that have special lightweight parts that 600's or even 1000's don't have,and most bikes have alot of work in the engine.In 600's it is about your suspension,tires,and the rider can make the most difference.Would if Rossi jumped on your bike,how much faster do you think it will go.I see in team challenge when there is a rider change sometimes there is a 3 sec a lap difference between the riders on the same bike.
Quote from: twilkinson3 on October 27, 2011, 01:18:26 PM
Agreed - most of the "prblems" are the rule set....I honestly think it costs more to have/build a competitive LW SS bike than a MW SS bike...
Mostly because there just isn't that many bikes being built that fit in the LW category.
Despite that, there will always be someone who will build the bikes to the maximum that the rules allow....I didn't hear much complaining when the SV came out and started destroying all of the Honda Hawks, Aprillia 250's, EX 500's, etc.
Besides, the SV should be pretty dominant in ULW, right?
Quote from: Gino230 on October 27, 2011, 03:30:30 PM
Mostly because there just isn't that many bikes being built that fit in the LW category.
Despite that, there will always be someone who will build the bikes to the maximum that the rules allow....I didn't hear much complaining when the SV came out and started destroying all of the Honda Hawks, Aprillia 250's, EX 500's, etc.
Besides, the SV should be pretty dominant in ULW, right?
Wasn't the point, and I missed the era where the sv started beating up on the hawk et al - the current rule set for Supersport is a recipe for expense, the lack of significant restrictions on a lot of things is what makes it so expensive to run a competitive bike in LW - and hey I have a lot of trick bits on the SS legal bike myself...then again I'm an established Software engineer nearing the formula old guy age and can afford that stuff, but that doesn't make it accessible to a larger audience...LW supposedly is the place that an aspiring racer can get his/her feet wet with a lower bill to foot to do so...I feel it's the opposite, it's probably cheaper to race a liter bike for a season than a truely competitive SS bike in CCS
All that said, what I've seen/read of the ULW Thunderbike rules are more "wera" like in that they state more what you can do to the bike rather than what you can't and should help contain costs and make for some seriously good "entry" level racing - just waiting myself to see if we get rounds of it up in the midwest.....
I have heard many valid points in this thread that apply to the whole mix in racing. We may have strayed off the topic a little so please accept my apologies. In my thinking racing is all about the whole package. It is about the rider, the brand of bike and the assets it contains, and the amount of money I am willing to spend to overcome the liabilities/deficits. Put my whole package together against some other package and we have a race.
The small rider has an advantage over the larger. I can lose weight but not as much as cold when I was younger. So I add horsepower up to the limit of the rules. Hopefully the lighter rider doesn't have enough money to do the same. For me I race on a budget and choose not to spend as much as others, but I hold my own when it comes race time. eat I hear the saying, "if you can't afford racing then maybe you shouldn't be". I race with what I can afford.
Lightweight for me is a good starting point for any racer. It offers the new rider a chance to practice and hone skills without the threat of tremendous speed or power that overwhelms the rear tire traction. On the other end of the lightweight spectrum where all the fast experts ride can become very costly. But that's only if you choose to spend that much.
A new Rider in the larger class' already have more than enough power to overwhelm the rear tire and speed to overwhelm the senses of the rider. There is not as much need to upgrade for more power. There is a lot more potential in the ability of the rider before performance upgrades are necessary.
Now, tire choice. I use the tire of my choice because I want to. If it fits within my budget and provides the results that I need then it's my choice.
Rules are there because it helps to delineate the difference in the class structure.
Exactly, good post Mark!
Quote from: Gino230 on October 27, 2011, 03:30:30 PM
Mostly because there just isn't that many bikes being built that fit in the LW category.
Despite that, there will always be someone who will build the bikes to the maximum that the rules allow....I didn't hear much complaining when the SV came out and started destroying all of the Honda Hawks, Aprillia 250's, EX 500's, etc.
Besides, the SV should be pretty dominant in ULW, right?
The SV is a moderately priced bike and could destroy a Hawk or an EX500 SS prepped. A DB5R costs how much?
It all depends on how much you are willing to spend on the SV. Arnie hastings has done well on the SV against all those big motor Ducati bikes.
Arnie's Sv isnt fixed up much at all.Power is about the same as mine,which isnt much.It is about the rider and suspension that makes it fast in the turns.Now if he rode it at daytona his bike would not be fast enough to do much out there just like mine.
Understand that Mark which only goes along with my meaning. If you want all the bikes even then it would be a cup race, whether it be the SV cup or more recently the Ninja 250 cup. Everyone can afford that bike. There is nothing stopping anyone from spending bucco bucks on the SV, and there have been some elaborate SV machinery around. I seem to remember one specifically that cost somewhere in the realm of $50K. That's a Bimota and then some.
Quote from: MACOP1104 on November 04, 2011, 07:51:02 PM
The SV is a moderately priced bike and could destroy a Hawk or an EX500 SS prepped. A DB5R costs how much?
The DB5 is certainly a big advantage, and a very expensive one at that. There are still 1000DS available, Charlie Mavros has done pretty well on his 1100 monster this year as well.
But I was responding to the idea that SUPERSPORT class rules are a recipe for expense- Most MW bikes are pretty even in stock form- LW bikes, not so much. As I said though, there will always be someone willing to spend big bucks to build a bike to class limits. And none of the DB5s running currently in CCS (FL anyways) are SS legal.
Sorry for the hijack- not that it should matter, this board has had like 10 posts in the last 30 days....
Im way late on this thread, but i agree with Ben. Slicks and DOT's are very similar and offer little to to no advantage over each other.
I wrote a nice long email to Kevin about this very subject back in October. Of course, there was no reply.
This would benifit both the racing org as people would probobly sign up for more races if they did not need a different set of tires and it would be easier on the tire vendors reducing our inventory needs.
Years and years ago there were major differences in the two tires but things have changes. Modern technology has brought the manufacturers to produce one carcass ("Diablo" for Pirelli) and either put sipes in the tire or dont. Same tire, with or without sipes.
The wear tends to be better on the current model slicks mainly because of the flex differences when a sipe is introduced to the OD of the tire.
I hope someone comes to their senses on this subject...
Well Dustin, they will need a different set if its raining. At least with DOT you can still go. Slicks and water arent a good combo. :biggrin:
This thread hasn't been updated in a while, but I would absolutely give CCS another $50 or $80 every race weekend to race Unlimited Supersport on my already-purchased Dunlop slicks. I, along with at least 4 other UNL racers that I know pretty well all watch the UNL SS races from the sidelines because spending $400 for a set of DOT's to run 2 races per set (or thereabouts) just isn't in the budget. Plus, would it make it easier for all of the tire suppliers to only worry about bringing just slicks and rains? Seems like it would make things a little more streamlined.
I hope in 2013 CCS strongly reconsiders this opportunity. :cheers:
Any update on this? Other orgs are changing, and it would be nice to simplify the tire situation for next year.
Quote from: Hollywood on June 04, 2012, 08:50:04 PM
This thread hasn't been updated in a while, but I would absolutely give CCS another $50 or $80 every race weekend to race Unlimited Supersport on my already-purchased Dunlop slicks. I, along with at least 4 other UNL racers that I know pretty well all watch the UNL SS races from the sidelines because spending $400 for a set of DOT's to run 2 races per set (or thereabouts) just isn't in the budget. Plus, would it make it easier for all of the tire suppliers to only worry about bringing just slicks and rains? Seems like it would make things a little more streamlined.
I hope in 2013 CCS strongly reconsiders this opportunity. :cheers:
EXACTLY! That was the reason I started the thread! Hopefully I can race next year, this year my baby forced me to the sidelines.
We could go to a one tire rule and that would solve the problem. Each manufacturer would put there bid in to sponsor the series and supply the tire.
I would still like to see a tire rule change for Unlimited Supersport. We should be able to run Slicks in SS. We are allowed to run them in ASRA Superstock. So CCS please change this rule for us Unlimited racers. I think you will see more entries in SS if you do. Thanks!
I would like to use slicks in unlimited SS too. Currently I run DOT's in all the other Unlimited classes and they don't last as long as slicks so I have to spend more on tires then I would if I could just use slicks.
Wera did this and everybody is happy.
Have you guys sent your proposal to Texas. I don't think you will get it done here and if there isn't a formal proposal in by the time their committee convenes then it would be too late, soo sad.
dont you see! its all about spending more money!