New racer looking for advice

Started by JKBRacing, November 16, 2015, 03:44:47 PM

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bruce71198

Quote from: Farmboy on January 15, 2016, 02:16:21 AM
Aw man. I can't believe I never saw this, I haven't been on here in ages. I have spoken to Bruce, though... 8)

To the OP, it sounds like you found an SV, so you're probably good. If you need pro help on the suspension (no matter your budget, prioritize suspension setup first and foremost), there are some excellent guys right in our neck of the woods. Otherwise, go race, learn, and have a blast. The SV is among the most versatile and capable bikes you will find at the track, and will teach you more than most bikes as well.

If you ever decide to track your monster, I can assure you it is a very capable championship-level bike with not too many mods. Of course, more mods are always better - after suspension, wheels are the next best option (the stockers are HEAVY) - but the basic geometry is very good, very classic Ducati, which is to say rock solid stable, albeit requiring dedicated input. Chassis strength and stability is excellent, especially considering the relatively modest power output. Don't forget, the early Monster frames are essentially 851 chassis with slight tweaks, so they are born of racing intent, unlike the same-era SS bikes. I have personally found reliability to be rock solid as well, as the motor in my '96, which was my first track bike ever, and which has literally thousands of track miles from RA to Daytona and most points in between, still has the stock bottom end and transmission in as-yet never split cases. I did some light top end mods when I first got it, and have done pistons and valves once more since then, but it didn't even need the pistons. Other than that, new cam belts and plugs each spring and it's good to go.

No doubt, if you've already purchased a track-prepped SV, it will be both cheaper and more capable than your M until you invest some serious money in the Duc. The Duc, though, is an excellent and unique candidate for the class. That uniqueness, plus the relatively prodigious torque as compared to the SV, really make for a fun ride. I'll most likely have a couple of my bikes out this year, so I'll probably see you at some point. Actually, I'll definitely be at the track whether I have the bikes with me or not, but I'd prefer the former. If you ever want to chat about the Duc, or if you'd like a heads up on suspension guys, feel free to email me at berard12@comcast.net Who knows when I'll check back in here again?
Why are you up at 2:30 in the morning?

Farmboy

Quote from: bruce71198 on January 15, 2016, 10:57:32 AM
Why are you up at 2:30 in the morning?

Crocheting tire warmer blankets and searching the interwebz for opportunities to promote Monsters as ideal race bikes. Clearly lagging on the latter..
Jim Berard CCS MW#904

ducatista01

Quote from: Farmboy on January 15, 2016, 02:32:14 AM
The SxR frames were heavily based on the ST chassis and do indeed have a pronounced rearward weight bias, and are very heavy as well. They can be ridden pretty hard, but they're also pretty hairy. Swingarm flex ultimately becomes an issue as well...
The older M chassis, with the dual sided alloy swing arm/hoop design, still has a slight rearward bias, but it's not nearly as bad as the newer Monsters, and is a fair amount lighter and handles much better than the newer bikes too.

Jim Thanks for sharing this.  I take you you have logged some track miles on a monster?  I have a friend with a 2001 monster that handles on rails and I have never been able to get my 06 and 07 s*r to handle as well and I have full ohlins all set up and everything.

I thought the bikes were basically the same aside from the swing arm length and I would be able to get the new gen bike pretty happy with the right set up but it seems to not be the case.  No matter what I try the s*r's just don't have the stability that my friends m900 does.

Do you have any set up tips for the s*r's?  My next step is to get it on a frame machine and try and get the numbers looking as good as I can.  Aside from that I have tried everything and its heartbreaking to have such a beautiful bike that disappoints me every time I ride the twisties.

...Sorry for the thread hijack.

Farmboy

#39
Quote from: ducatista01 on January 20, 2016, 10:49:18 PM
Jim Thanks for sharing this.  I take you you have logged some track miles on a monster?  I have a friend with a 2001 monster that handles on rails and I have never been able to get my 06 and 07 s*r to handle as well and I have full ohlins all set up and everything.

I thought the bikes were basically the same aside from the swing arm length and I would be able to get the new gen bike pretty happy with the right set up but it seems to not be the case.  No matter what I try the s*r's just don't have the stability that my friends m900 does.

Do you have any set up tips for the s*r's?  My next step is to get it on a frame machine and try and get the numbers looking as good as I can.  Aside from that I have tried everything and its heartbreaking to have such a beautiful bike that disappoints me every time I ride the twisties.

...Sorry for the thread hijack.

I raced both my '96 M and '08 S2R1000 pretty extensively back in '08 and '09, and won several regional and national amateur championships in '09 riding mostly the S2R. The 2 bikes are really nothing alike, as their chassis are derived from 2 entirely different bikes, i.e., the 851/888 vs the ST2/3/4 models.

At the time, I pretty much just put the bike together with parts I had and rode it. I had a set of Showa 996 forks, calipers, and master cylinder, Marchesini 5 spoke magnesium rims, and I purchased a Penske double clicker for the bike. Scotty Ryan at TSE did all the internal suspension mods for me. I stripped everything I could off the bike, but it still had the stock harness and weighed around 390 or so with enough fuel in it to race.

The bike was not exactly terrifying to ride, but it did have a nasty habit of pushing the front which I never worked out; I mostly used the excellent power the lightly modded motor made to make it work. In '11, I raced an entirely different, and much better and faster bike, and really didn't ride the S2R much, so I never did much more with it until I disassembled it last year with the intention of using the injected motor in the older M chassis. It bolted in no problem, but I hit a financial wall when it came to figuring out wiring harness and exhaust options (like 5-6k worth), so the motor is currently tucked away while I rebuild that bike around the carbed motor.

Anyway, before I tore the S2R down, I weighed both ends to see what the distribution was and came away with 188 at the front and 200 at the rear, with gas in it. So, as the fuel is burnt, the weight distribution is even less ideal. Additionally, this bike still had the stock (open) airbox and a lead acid battery up front, so if you tried to lighten it up further, the weight distribution would only get worse.

As I said, I was able to win 4 down at Daytona in '09 (and 1 at Mid Ohio, the bike was probably more challenging there than anywhere else I've ridden it), and the bike wasn't too scary. My fastest lap time was a 2:06 (no fairing either) without breaking much of a sweat, although I'm sure a steering damper would have taken an easy second off that as the bike would shake it's head pretty good coming out of the infield and especially the kink down there. Believe it or not, it never really seemed to need a damper elsewhere despite that weight bias, so I never bothered with it. Still, I don't know that you'd ever be able to make one of these handle with that weight distribution - there's really nothing you can take off the rear. The damn frame, swing arm, and rear hub assembly are, IMO, just too heavy.

FWIW, if I were going to put the DS motor in a "correct" frame, I'd opt for one of the SportClassic chassis; they work pretty well from what I've seen guys do with them. I'm still hoping to mate the new motor to the old M, but for now I've taken 40 lbs off the old bike, modded the motor a little more, and mounted bodywork, so I plan on riding that this year and seeing how it is. I can still get quite a bit more power out of the carbed motor, and I've figured that the DS motor with all the required additional hardware will add a minimum of 25# to the bike, so that's a negative to that option as well.


As I stated earlier, I never had overwhelming stability issues per se. I know the 996 forks were a little shorter than stock spec (not sure about the Ohlins forks), so the front end was dropped a bit, but I think the Penske was stock length in the rear, although it is height adjustable.  Apart from the front end pushing in more technical corners (I always had the most problems in 7 up at RA, and coming over the hill down into the back of Mid O, I forget what turn that is), the bike was surprisingly stable under braking and in turns. I do recall, though, that when I rode the bike a few times in '11, I started to notice NASTY things happening with the chassis; I attributed this to me finally going faster than the single sided swing arm could handle. I'm not positive about this, though, because I didn't put any effort or resources towards resolving it as I had the other, much better bike.


Do you have clip ons on the bike? Do you know that the suspension is completely optimized and set up? What spec is your buddy's M set up to? Just curious, although I just don't think you could ever get an S2R to work as well as one of the older Ms, much less a super bike. It does sound like you have the rear jacked up too much; I'd drop it back down a little bit, which would restore stability without sacrificing too much responsiveness. I never had much of a problem with turn in on mine. Having said all of that, I did ride my S2R in quite an active manner, kind of like a monkey riding a manic pit bull. And, let me state openly that I'm not the most knowledgable or disciplined when it comes to bike set up, although I'm learning every day. I just came to the sport somewhat late and am happy to just ride as fast as I can. I'm kind of an idiot like that.
Jim Berard CCS MW#904

JKBRacing

#40
Quote from: Farmboy on January 15, 2016, 02:16:21 AM
Aw man. I can't believe I never saw this, I haven't been on here in ages. I have spoken to Bruce, though... 8)

To the OP, it sounds like you found an SV, so you're probably good. If you need pro help on the suspension (no matter your budget, prioritize suspension setup first and foremost), there are some excellent guys right in our neck of the woods. Otherwise, go race, learn, and have a blast. The SV is among the most versatile and capable bikes you will find at the track, and will teach you more than most bikes as well.

If you ever decide to track your monster, I can assure you it is a very capable championship-level bike with not too many mods. Of course, more mods are always better - after suspension, wheels are the next best option (the stockers are HEAVY) - but the basic geometry is very good, very classic Ducati, which is to say rock solid stable, albeit requiring dedicated input. Chassis strength and stability is excellent, especially considering the relatively modest power output. Don't forget, the early Monster frames are essentially 851 chassis with slight tweaks, so they are born of racing intent, unlike the same-era SS bikes. I have personally found reliability to be rock solid as well, as the motor in my '96, which was my first track bike ever, and which has literally thousands of track miles from RA to Daytona and most points in between, still has the stock bottom end and transmission in as-yet never split cases. I did some light top end mods when I first got it, and have done pistons and valves once more since then, but it didn't even need the pistons. Other than that, new cam belts and plugs each spring and it's good to go.

No doubt, if you've already purchased a track-prepped SV, it will be both cheaper and more capable than your M until you invest some serious money in the Duc. The Duc, though, is an excellent and unique candidate for the class. That uniqueness, plus the relatively prodigious torque as compared to the SV, really make for a fun ride. I'll most likely have a couple of my bikes out this year, so I'll probably see you at some point. Actually, I'll definitely be at the track whether I have the bikes with me or not, but I'd prefer the former. If you ever want to chat about the Duc, or if you'd like a heads up on suspension guys, feel free to email me at berard12@comcast.net Who knows when I'll check back in here again?

Hey thanks for piping in. I have the SV 650 on the rack at this time. I have been going though it little by little just finished the suspension with help from TSE. I couple of more small odd ends, tuning and the body work and I am done. the Bodywork was pretty beat up so I have been trying my hand at body work. I suppose it is ok to use a 1/2-3/4 inch of bondo to fill dents in the fuel tank?? :) learning fiberglass repair filling holes on the rest of the fairing. (good practice and nothing to loose at this point.) how should I go about getting it painted?  Rattle cans ??. Is it reasonable to think that I could complete all the body work as in completely smooth out the bodywork then take it to a local body shop and ask them to spray it with what ever they have in hopes of getting everything painted for a couple of hundred dollars?

Your inspiring in regards to my 96 M. I have race tech springs, gold valves with ohlins out back. The last time I had it at a track day "Gingerman" I was riding in the intermediate class and found myself feeling as though I could just about put the bike anywhere on the track I wanted too giving some people fits oh higher horsepower bikes :). The front end did feel light and I could feel it start to tuck a couple of times mid corner or just after when I would try and tighten the line.

But you are right on!! What a hoot to ride. I love the torque and throttle response of the Duc with 41 mm flatsides :) I'm sure I will miss it on the 650 :)

Cheers

bruce71198

Quote from: Newracer46 on January 24, 2016, 11:10:20 PM
Hey thanks for piping in. I have the SV 650 on the rack at this time. I have been going though it little by little just finished the suspension with help from TSE. I couple of more small odd ends, tuning and the body work and I am done. the Bodywork was pretty beat up so I have been trying my hand at body work. I suppose it is ok to use a 1/2-3/4 inch of bondo to fill dents in the fuel tank?? :) learning fiberglass repair filling holes on the rest of the fairing. (good practice and nothing to loose at this point.) how should I go about getting it painted?  Rattle cans ??. Is it reasonable to think that I could complete all the body work as in completely smooth out the bodywork then take it to a local body shop and ask them to spray it with what ever they have in hopes of getting everything painted for a couple of hundred dollars?
If you crash your SV you will dent the tank. Trying to pull the dents out frequently results in ripping the metal. Just fill right over the dent with body filler is my advise. As far as painting, rattle cans will result in the lowest cost paint job you can achieve but it stains and washes off easily. Some have used Rustolium in a paint gun wit good results. You can also order automotive paint in rattle cans, not the color match stuff, actual car paint, activator and all, any color you want from some parts stores. By me Lee auto parts gets it for less than $20 a can. Holds up well, and if properly prepped, looks really nice. Your other option is to find a body shop to paint it. When doing this I ask them to use single stage paint (keeps labor hours down) and because I'm not building show bikes.

JKBRacing

Thanks for the lead. I went on Ebay found this place out of Spokane Washington and called out there. They were really helpful. I think this will be the way I go that way I can paint it the way I want it. Like you said it is good paint. The guy said that he recommends a two step for the tank. That way if you drip fuel on it occasionally it wont hurt it. He also said that the two step can even be  cut and polished. Sound like pretty good stuff. They also sell a one step that has the clear coat mixed in. Thanks for the idea.
Cheers !!!
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Touch-Up-Custom-Spray-Can-Automotive-Paint-317-Orient-Blue-Metallic-for-BMW-323i-/351569572230?hash=item51db2df186:g:f~4AAOSwKtlWlsbt

ducatista01

Jim...

What triples are you using with the 996 forks?  Another difference between the older than 01 bikes and the S*R's is the triple clamp offset.  The older ones are 25mm and newer ones are 30mm.

Yes I have clip ons. ...and I am laying over the front of that thing to keep it planted.

The suspension is as optimized as possible (Its never perfect but man have I tried).  Had two suspension tuners muck with it including valving and spring changes front and rear on the RS.

My buddies 01 has supersport Showa forks redone by TSE with correct springs.  And an Ohlins on the rear.  Never had to mess with adjusting it... Just slapped the baseline setup on it and rode.  Its very nice.  Rear has been raised a bit. (I tried to duplicate the ride height numbers on his to my RS with no luck.  To many other variable in play)

On the RS I have an aftermarket ride height rod that goes both higher and lower than stock.  I found the best setting actually lower than factory stock so its not jacked up at all.  Actually the opposite.
The front is as high as possible.  The ohlins are actually slightly countersunk in the top triple by a couple mm for better clearance.  With the RS under hard braking the tire can hit the big 4 valve head so I set it where I have just enough clearance to be safe.  I took tie downs and compressed the front to check clearance, then set the front ride height accordingly.

vance

Quote from: Woofentino Pugrossi on November 25, 2015, 12:54:39 AM
Well with a LW supersport legal SV, you can run LWSS, LWSB, LWGP, LWF40 (if you are over 40), GTL, ULWSB, Thunderbike, Supertwins (granted you'd be racing against 1000+cc twins in SuperTwins). If you don't get a supersport legal SV, then you just lose the ability to run LWSS. 

Of these races, in which ones would a well sorted SuperBike with an amateur rider be most competitive?
Florida combines all of the LW classes now, so I'll be racing against experts.

Woofentino Pugrossi

Quote from: vance on February 09, 2016, 05:07:01 PM
Of these races, in which ones would a well sorted SuperBike with an amateur rider be most competitive?
Florida combines all of the LW classes now, so I'll be racing against experts.

With a superbike built sv, you just lose the ability to race supersport. Wouldn't worry about racing experts as an am. Scored separately, just on track at the same time. Experts usually start 1st, then when the last ex goes into T1, the amateur pack gets to start. 2 wave starts when we combine ex and am up here in the MW normally.
Rob
CCS MW#14 EX, ASRA #141
CCSForums Cornerworking and Classifieds Mod

vance

I hope that will be the case, but I spoke with Henry yesterday on the phone and he said the Florida LW grids have become so small he decided to combine all of them to help with contingency.

vance

Confirmed in today's email:
For the 2016 season the following classes will run combined with amateurs and experts racing each other for events at Homestead.
Lightweight SuperSport, Ultralight SuperBike, Lightweight Superbike, Lightweight Grand prix, Thunderbike, Lightweight Formula 40, SuperTwins, GT Lights. These are in addition to the 4 classes that run combined nationwide of Ultralight Thunderbike, GT Ultralight, Moto 3 and 500 SS.

So my next question is scoring at Daytona:
When they separate the LW grids and start amateurs in 2nd wave, the FL experts I'm racing against will be long gone by the time the amateur wave starts. Or will there only be 1 wave combined?  Plus if I'm scored separately in a split race for Daytona and for example there are 10 experts and 10 novices and I get 5th in amateur, do I get 5th place points for FL region or 15th place points (assuming all experts finish ahead, you get the idea).