Ultralight Thunderbike Displacement?

Started by britx303, September 02, 2015, 04:32:31 PM

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Zaph

Quote from: Super Dave on September 27, 2016, 05:03:28 PM
World Supersport 300

http://www.bikesportnews.com/news/news-detail/dorna-announced-new-world-supersport-300-class-for-2017

I love the rules of this class, particularly the spending limits and list of accepted bikes, and some effort put in to making differing bikes perform similarly on track.  CCS could learn a few things about how to set up a race class.  CCS Ultralight classes are pretty much a mess right now, some bikes allowed here, some allowed there and no spending limits, in a class that should DEFINITELY have spending limits.

This list of accepted bikes is great because then you don't have unexpected rare bikes show up that can mop the floor.  Guys on SV650's know what I'm talking about.  Sure, you get one guy who will be crying that he can't race his rare bike that doesn't fit in a class, but screw that guy.  Everyone else benefits.

Spending limits are needed in CCS to stop racing from being a bottomless pit of money that only shop owners can afford. ESPECIALLY supersport.

C'mon CCS, get it together.  Take a look at World Supersport 300 to see how an ultralight race class should be done.

bruce71198

Quote from: Zaph on September 29, 2016, 02:08:59 PM
I love the rules of this class, particularly the spending limits and list of accepted bikes, and some effort put in to making differing bikes perform similarly on track.  CCS could learn a few things about how to set up a race class.  CCS Ultralight classes are pretty much a mess right now, some bikes allowed here, some allowed there and no spending limits, in a class that should DEFINITELY have spending limits.

This list of accepted bikes is great because then you don't have unexpected rare bikes show up that can mop the floor.  Guys on SV650's know what I'm talking about.  Sure, you get one guy who will be crying that he can't race his rare bike that doesn't fit in a class, but screw that guy.  Everyone else benefits.

Spending limits are needed in CCS to stop racing from being a bottomless pit of money that only shop owners can afford. ESPECIALLY supersport.

C'mon CCS, get it together.  Take a look at World Supersport 300 to see how an ultralight race class should be done.

If you like your rules written this way your racing with the wrong Org. this is WERA style shit right here. And I get why CCS Writes their rules the way they do, to separate them from the other guys.

Super Dave

Quote from: Zaph on September 29, 2016, 02:08:59 PM
I love the rules of this class, particularly the spending limits and list of accepted bikes, and some effort put in to making differing bikes perform similarly on track.  CCS could learn a few things about how to set up a race class.  CCS Ultralight classes are pretty much a mess right now, some bikes allowed here, some allowed there and no spending limits, in a class that should DEFINITELY have spending limits.

This list of accepted bikes is great because then you don't have unexpected rare bikes show up that can mop the floor.  Guys on SV650's know what I'm talking about.  Sure, you get one guy who will be crying that he can't race his rare bike that doesn't fit in a class, but screw that guy.  Everyone else benefits.

Spending limits are needed in CCS to stop racing from being a bottomless pit of money that only shop owners can afford. ESPECIALLY supersport.


Quote from: Zaph on September 29, 2016, 02:08:59 PM
C'mon CCS, get it together.  Take a look at World Supersport 300 to see how an ultralight race class should be done.
Well, WSS300 will be part of the FIM WSB program.  The expectation should be that they will be satelite teams to WSS and WSB teams, feeders...just like Moto3 to Moto2 to MotoGP.  So, while there are "spending limits", there is no time limit.  Imagine when you've got your experienced engineers working on a simple bike. 

Similarly, if your business is race bikes, and your pre-occupation is race bikes, the expectation that someone's machines will be beyond good is to be expected. 

Once, "a couple years ago" :D, my crew (one guy) and I were lamenting a bit about the factory Honda team and the stuff they had and how good their bike was.  Well, my friend and sponsor representative kind of put into perspective.  "How often are you taking your forks apart?"  It wasn't very often, but he reminded me that they were doing that after every event.  It's not a lot of money to actually go and DO things, maybe a little oil here and there, but the constant state of maintenance and minor improvement can be significant.  So, it was only motivation that was necessarily stopping me from being more preoccupied with my AMA program. 

And, sometimes, the preoccupied racer ends up a mechanic.  Imagine that?

Racing is always a bottomless pit.  I suppose pit implies a bottom, but, really, racing is always about infinity.  How soon can you get the new bike, how much time can you put into development, how many new stealth coatings can you pioneer, what new technology can you work into your program, health, sleep, transportation, aerodynamics. 

In the end, you show up with the best bike you can build.  And then you've still got to have the skill to ride it.  And even ride it well.  Maybe "well-er" than your friends and competitors. :) 

I don't know how one would necessarily enforce a price cap.  Well, unless the bikes are sealed, stored, and transported.  So, now the price went up, and the results will most likely be the same.  Maybe a little closer, but maybe not. 

And world championship program that is established now produces more parts.  Some of those parts will be manufacturer based products even that don't have any visual cue that they are any different from stock parts.  Of course, these parts WILL make it into club racing.  HRC black boxes, how about "B kit" cams", etc. 

I do think that the establishment of a 300 WSS program will put most of the manufacturers in some competition with each other.  But, of course, some amount of stagnation occurs too as manufacturers limit their changes so that it drives riders/racers into buying every couple years for the next reduction in 1.5 pounds, gain in .5HP, BNG, etc.
Super Dave

Capitalview

Quote from: bruce71198 on September 29, 2016, 04:57:10 PM
If you like your rules written this way your racing with the wrong Org. this is WERA style shit right here. And I get why CCS Writes their rules the way they do, to separate them from the other guys.

Why all the hate towards that style of rules?  It is just a different take.  I like that style of rule writing.  Pretty simple.  If it isn't listed, you can't do it.  No better or worse.

Zaph

Quote from: bruce71198 on September 29, 2016, 04:57:10 PM
If you like your rules written this way your racing with the wrong Org. this is WERA style shit right here. And I get why CCS Writes their rules the way they do, to separate them from the other guys.

The only reason I race CCS is because WERA doesn't come to my favorite local tracks.  The WERA rule set is vastly superior, IMHO. WERA is more of a riders org than a builders org.  I prefer racing over wrenching, but I understand a few others like the opposite.

britx303

Quote from: Zaph on September 30, 2016, 12:10:19 PM
The only reason I race CCS is because WERA doesn't come to my favorite local tracks.  The WERA rule set is vastly superior, IMHO. WERA is more of a riders org than a builders org.  I prefer racing over wrenching, but I understand a few others like the opposite.
I felt the same way at first and thats how I got to CCS. I dont see anything wrong with CCS structure per se, I just want the R3 put in ULTB!!!! :biggrin:

bruce71198

Don't get me wrong, I'm not hatin on either org or the rules structure. I do think the ultralight classes should be SS rules and allow more manufacturers in.
I like the way World Superbike has it set up..

britx303

Quote from: bruce71198 on October 01, 2016, 11:56:01 AM
Don't get me wrong, I'm not hatin on either org or the rules structure. I do think the ultralight classes should be SS rules and allow more manufacturers in.
I like the way World Superbike has it set up..
One thing CCS does need to do though is keep the classes dubbed UL for actual UL bikes,i.e. the 250/300's etc. It created alot of confusion for guys that added a 300 to the stable mid-season because of ULTB and ULSB. For example:The guys wouldnt race 500 SS and were trying to race in UL superbike instead because of UL in the class name.Granted they should have read the rulebook and paid attention since they were NOT newbies,and should have known where to go,but the UL throws everybody off. And lastly.....let the R3 in ULTB :spank: I really want one :biggrin:

Super Dave

Ok, so, as someone that doesn't have much understanding about how things are on the ground...

How bad is the difference between a Ninja 250 and a Ninja 300 on a race track?  Hoping for data from someone that has raced them both...


Super Dave

vance

Come to the Jennings Endurance weekend Nov 19th and see for yourself.  It was nice to see last year how the 390 cup bikes did vs the 300's vs the 250's with good riders on each machine.  They finished in that order.  Very clear difference between the three.

Super Dave

Quote from: vance on October 24, 2016, 10:32:10 AM
Come to the Jennings Endurance weekend Nov 19th and see for yourself.
Sounds nice!  But the 2000 miles of travel would eat into my budget for getting anything.  Then there's that pesky work thing too. 
Super Dave

britx303

Besides when the kids come out and play,the ex300 has been the dominant bike here,and then the built 250s,then whatever human/adult is on the 390.But it seems its down to the rider in each case. So far nobody is really hitting the same Summit times as Mazz on his 250,regardless of which bike out of the 3.My disclaimer: I only remember seeing 1 or 2 adults on a 390 :biggrin: