Ultralight Thunderbike Displacement?

Started by britx303, September 02, 2015, 04:32:31 PM

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Zaph

The only real way to get rid of cheater bikes is to get rid of cc based requirements and just list the bikes that are allowed.  The Ducati is a cheater bike that snuck into lightweight because CCS had a different air cooled twin in mind for the air cooled cc limit. Probably a BMW or a Buell.

SVbadguy

Quote from: Zaph on September 09, 2015, 04:47:46 PM
The only real way to get rid of cheater bikes is to get rid of cc based requirements and just list the bikes that are allowed.  The Ducati is a cheater bike that snuck into lightweight because CCS had a different air cooled twin in mind for the air cooled cc limit. Probably a BMW or a Buell.

This is why.

LW classes should've had outright limits like 4T 450cc 4-cyl, 4T 700cc 2 cyl, 4T singles no limit or something close, no exceptions for air-cooling, number of valves or pushrods.  Instead the rules were changed to allow Buells. 

And of course some people always want to mention how the SV took the top spot from the Hawk.  Well the rules weren't changed specifically to allow the SV.  It fit within the existing (and pretty standard across orgs at the time) rules, too bad for the Hawk not having 4 valves per cylinder.
Mid-Atlantic Region 
MARRC Exec Committee at-large & Radio Committee Chair

Capitalview

Quote from: Zaph on September 09, 2015, 04:47:46 PM
The only real way to get rid of cheater bikes is to get rid of cc based requirements and just list the bikes that are allowed.  The Ducati is a cheater bike that snuck into lightweight because CCS had a different air cooled twin in mind for the air cooled cc limit. Probably a BMW or a Buell.

Yes, it was put in for the Buell, but CCS could have easily put in "non desmodromic" valves.  Or, add that it was restricted to push rod air cooled engines.  Like they have in almost every other class. Yet they didn't and won't.  Even after numerous requests.

Super Dave

Quote from: SVbadguy on September 09, 2015, 06:23:55 PM
Instead the rules were changed to allow Buells.

Actually, there is a really, really long history of rules that "favor" larger displacements for H-D or other push-rod engines.  We're talking 50's flat track stuff, decades later the internal weight of twins being allowed more displacement (Ducati 851's vs 750/4's, aren't the Ducati's nearly 1200cc's now with the 4's at 1000?). 

Anyway, what is the final result of the rules for 2016 (now at the end of the year).  Thinking about playing with an R3, Ninja 300, or (probably unlikely) a KTM390.  Would really like to race one of those current machines at Blackhawk at the last event to see how the function now to help me make a decision for 2017.  Will probably buy new for 2017 for two years of contingency. 
Super Dave

britx303

The ninja 300 will give you more options with running ULTB,GTUL,500 SS and Moto3,all competetively. The R3 can only run 500SS and moto3 competetively,and run in whatever SV does, LWSS LWGP ULSB etc as bump up classes. A fast guy could have a good run with an R3 on a smaller track against slower SVs,so I wouldnt count out the R3 just yet .Im pondering an R3 winter build myself.......

Capitalview

Maybe CCS will figure out what most already have and realize the R3 and RC390 are not the Ninja 300 killer.  Whoever is the better rider is going to win with these bikes. 

Stop protecting the stupid 250 and let the others in.

dmj_88

#18
Jeff, it sounds like you want to split up expert and amateur as well as the ninja 250/300 from the R3/390 for the ULTB and GTUL in the name of a place to run your R3. The R3 already has two classes it's REALLY competitive in (Moto 3 and 500SS) and after riding both a R3 and 300 I can say the R3 definitely has an advantage over the little ninja ceteris paribus. Furthermore, splitting up the ULTB, 500SS, Moto 3, etc classes for expert and amateur actually hurts the riders because those classes are already difficult to get the grids big enough for contingency to pay out. As far as needing a GT race for you R3 (running with the GTUL racers but scored differently) that can EASILY be achieved by signing up for GTL and gridding behind the GTUL wave (in the very back of the grid.) Problem solved! Unless of course you really are just looking to bifurcate the classes enough that everyone is a winner and gets a trophy... Additionally, if you're not just looking for a trophy, but rather some good fun racing then run up a class in LWSS. I have ran LWSS on my 300 several times and was able to find the podium on every occasion.  The notion that by making these extra little bike classes and getting rid of heavyweight will put more people on the grid is just plain not true, a lot of the guys on 600s travel to every round sign up for all the MW and HW races etc. the numbers for the little bikes just don't justify more classes at this point. CCS is a for profit organization and the HW classes have proven to be a money maker. Yes the GSXR 750 is the only bike that falls into the class limits for the HW but so is the CBR500 for 500SS and a quick look at the results shows neither of those bikes consistently winning either class, its usually a lower spec bike "racing up" a class.
Just my $0.02

Capitalview

Long winded response follows.

Quote from: dmj_88 on September 20, 2016, 10:03:28 AMJeff, it sounds like you want to split up expert and amateur as well as the ninja 250/300 from the R3/390 for the ULTB and GTUL in the name of a place to run your R3. The R3 already has two classes it's REALLY competitive in (Moto 3 and 500SS) and after riding both a R3 and 300 I can say the R3 definitely has an advantage over the little ninja ceteris paribus. Furthermore, splitting up the ULTB, 500SS, Moto 3, etc classes for expert and amateur actually hurts the riders because those classes are already difficult to get the grids big enough for contingency to pay out.


Actually, I just want the Ninja 250s, Honda single cylinder 250/300s to have their own class (run at same time as the ULW bikes to save time) because they really are at a huge disadvantage from the 300 Ninja, R3, and RC390.  The Ninja 300 is at a negligible disadvantage from the latter two bikes.  In fact, the Ninja 300 is at no more a disadvantage than say a 2016 CBR 600 to a 2016 ZX6R.  And a much smaller disadvantage than a 2016 ZX10R to a 2016 CBR1000. The RC has a bit more HP and better torque.


The reason I was advocating for separating expert and amateur ULW scoring is because that is a major complaint I have heard from amateur racers in the ULW class.  I don't really care.  Even if I was an amateur it wouldn't matter to me.  Like you said, bigger grids for contingency.

Quote from: dmj_88 on September 20, 2016, 10:03:28 AM As far as needing a GT race for you R3 (running with the GTUL racers but scored differently) that can EASILY be achieved by signing up for GTL and gridding behind the GTUL wave (in the very back of the grid.) Problem solved! Unless of course you really are just looking to bifurcate the classes enough that everyone is a winner and gets a trophy... Additionally, if you're not just looking for a trophy, but rather some good fun racing then run up a class in LWSS. I have ran LWSS on my 300 several times and was able to find the podium on every occasion.


I did grid up at the back of the grid this last time for the GTL/GTUL race.  But, as you say, that takes me out of any contingency from Yamaha.  I am now at the back of the grid, yet being scored with the LWs.  I can tell you the only passing I was doing against the Ninjas was either through drafting or under braking into corners.  There was little, to any HP difference.


I also had been planning on signing up for the LWSS races but, at least in the Mid West, those were run at the same time as either the Moto 3 or 500ss race.  I can't remember which now.


Quote from: dmj_88 on September 20, 2016, 10:03:28 AMThe notion that by making these extra little bike classes and getting rid of heavyweight will put more people on the grid is just plain not true, a lot of the guys on 600s travel to every round sign up for all the MW and HW races etc. the numbers for the little bikes just don't justify more classes at this point. CCS is a for profit organization and the HW classes have proven to be a money maker. Yes the GSXR 750 is the only bike that falls into the class limits for the HW but so is the CBR500 for 500SS and a quick look at the results shows neither of those bikes consistently winning either class, it's usually a lower spec bike "racing up" a class. Just my $0.02

As I stated above, the logic for keeping the R3 and RC390 out of ULW somehow isn't applied to the Kawi 636 though.  It makes more HP than the other 600s but is allowed in.  Why?  By the logic being applied to the R3 and RC390 CCS should never have allowed the 636 in.  Heck, the new ZX10R is leaps and bounds better in HP, suspension, and brakes then the CBR1000 yet the ZX is allowed to race in the unlimited class.  Based on the R3/RC390 logic since there are still people racing CBR1000s the new ZX shouldn't be allowed because it is so much better.  But because the ZX happens to be the same displacement it is allowed. 

What is going to happen to the new R6 if it is, as rumored, turns out to be a triple?  What happens if it is 685cc?  Is CCS not going to allow it in the MW class because it is 5cc over the current limit?  I highly doubt that.

Or, what happens when/if Kawasaki comes out with a new 300 Ninja that has more HP and better suspension/brakes but is still 300cc?  Is that not going to be allowed in ULW because it is marginally better than the older Ninja 300?

Progress marches on.  Rules need to be changed to adapt to the change manufactures are making to their bikes so they fit into the class they are marketed at.  This is why the HP2 isn't allowed in LW.  It isn't marketed as a LW bike even though it fits the rule set for that class.  At least that is the argument I have heard Eric Kelcher make.

Also, if we are trying to keep things safe by running similar bikes in a group, why put a 40HP bike in with bikes pushing 80+HP?  Those are truly fun starts and races (sarcasm). 

The 500ss races were started, at least from what I understand, because Honda was paying for the class.  Like you said, CCS is a for profit organization. So the 500ss class sticks around as long as Honda is paying.  I would say get rid of the 500ss race and just put the R3 and RC390 where they fit in best, the ULW class. 

Of course, now the 500ss class is happening in Florida.  Hmmm, wonder why.  Is it to keep the R3 and RC390 out of the ULW class in order to protect the very solid group of 250 spec riders down in that one specific region?  Just give the 250 riders their own class already and change the rules to put the R3, RC390, and Ninja 300 together.

As for the HW class, I still suggest its removal.  Double entry fees for the MW classes and double the laps too.  Actually give them a good race where everything isn't completely dependent upon a good start.  Let them do 14-16 laps (8 laps at someplace like Road America) instead of the crappy 7-8 (at BFR) they get now.  This would also save a bunch of time over the day from not having to start and finish an additional 3 races. 

Getting rid of those 4 classes may actually give other groups a chance at more laps too.  Or, if there are red flags, the rest of us don't get screwed by having our races reduced to only 3 or 4 laps.  Especially since the MWs are traditionally responsible for most of the red flags during a race weekend.  Nothing like paying for an 8 lap race and only getting 4 laps because the MWs keep crashing and causing red flags and so many races are crammed into one weekend.



Sorry for the rant, but I am tired of the hypocrisy I see in the ULW rules as compared to the rest of the rule book.

Zaph

Interesting discussion, filled with different people and different goals.

At first I wanted ULTB to be split up into expert and amateur.  As a yellow plate myself, I'm getting my ass kicked in that grid.  But I recognize that there's just not enough riders to split them up.  At Road America last time, there were only a few yellow plates and the grid was full of white plates.  This is my impression of a rabbit being chased by a pack of wolves, hahah.


It's kind of funny, people would expect ULTB to be filled with newbie racers on a budget, but it's the complete opposite.  My pace on a middleweight would allow me to finish in the upper third of amateur MWSS.  But in ULTB I'm fighting with the slowest 3 guys on the grid to stay out of last place.  Newbies who want to race should probably get on a 600 and get in amateur MWSS with the rest of the slow people.

I'm committed to ULTB though, enough that I sold my 675R to focus more on my 300.  I accept the challenge of being mixed in with the experts for now.  All I would like to see is the grid get larger so I have more people to play with.

Doxgon22

Gee, Zaph, thanks for the great shot of me ahead of Drew.  Even if it only lasted for about a second and a half after this shot was taken......
                                                    Doc

Capitalview

By the way, I would be very happy with the class configuration if the R3 and RC390 were just allowed in GTUL. 

It was such great fun last time in the GTUL race being in a train of evenly matched bikes down the front straight of BFR.  Wish my GoPro hasn't stopped recording after the second lap.

I do understand that the MW is the cash cow of most race orgs.  I didn't go back and read the rest of this thread but I am guessing I had my ultimate wish list of ULSS, ULSB, and, ULGP posted somewhere.

Super Dave

Super Dave