Ultralight Thunderbike Displacement?

[britx303]

So now that moto3 has changed some stuff around for the 390,ninja 300 and R3,or whatever they did...........any word on Ultralight TB bumping up displacement for the R3? 

[Doxgon22]

Kevin Elliott's comments to me earlier this year were that the KTM and the R3 were going to be eligible for 500 supersport race, but that he was going to leave the Ultralight Thunderbike and GT Ultralight races were going to remain 300cc limits

[apriliaman]

You can race those bikes in moto3 now.

[Capitalview]

Be nice to be able to run in GTUL though.  Instead of being scored against the Ducs and SVs in GTL.  I would be very happy to run the same time with the ninjas and scored separately.  Don't even need to put out a new entry form.  Just write in GTUL 2 or UTLB 2 or something like that.  Just to have a third race option.  Plus it would put more money into CCS pockets.

The small bike market is growing.  Better to embrace it than to fight it. 

[bruce71198]

I don't think the small bike market has found itself yet. When it was just Kawi in the game it was simple. I think it would be a problem to classify all the ULW bikes at this time. What we are experiencing now is transition.

[Capitalview]

I don't think the small bike market has found itself yet. When it was just Kawi in the game it was simple. I think it would be a problem to classify all the ULW bikes at this time. What we are experiencing now is transition.

Bike classes are always in transition.  There are HP wars in all the classes.  To just make a blanket statement that we aren't going to let these two bikes in because it wouldn't be fair to the others is crap.  Based on that, the Kawasaki 636 should never have been allowed into MW then.

The ultra lightweight isn't going to transition that much anyway.  These bikes are made to conform to European licensing restrictions (HP restriction) and displacement limits in the biggest markets; India, Malaysia, and Japan.

That is also why rules change.  They should evolve along with the state of what is going on in motorcycling.

Plus, I am just asking to run at the same time and score separately not compete directly against the Ninjas.  Specifically in GTL races.

Yamaha is also offering contingency for R3s now.  7 rider minimum though.

I asked Kevin about getting rid of the Heavy Weight class because there was really only one bike actually made for it (GSX-R 750).  He immediately stated the new Ducati 899 and MV800 just came out and they fit in the class.  Yet when you look at the results from that class, those bikes are few and far between. 

So we keep around a class because there are still some bikes made for it.  Yet bikes that are coming out and would fit well into an existing class are excluded.  The real reason we keep HW is because the 600s run in it and CCS is still making money off of it.

So why this obsessive protection of the Ninjas?  I would love to hear a real reason, not just "We just aren't going to let them in right now."  That is the answer a bad parent gives their child. 
Child: "Why Daddy?" 
Dad: "Because I said so."

That is the type of answer you give when either A: you don't have an answer, or, 2: you don't want to tell people the real reason.

Of course, looking at the results from BFR the last weekend in August I see a KTM 300 and a Metrakit 125 raced in ULTB and GT ULTB.  Not sure about the KTM, maybe it really was a 300, but I am pretty sure the Metrakit would be illegal.  Isn't that a 125 GP machine, or as Metrakit described it, a Pre-GP bike.  So I guess as long as no one protests I will be good.

I will post some rule proposals a little later.

[Capitalview]

First proposal
GT 250/300 (Amateur and Expert Divisions)
Single cylinder, four-stroke liquid cooled, 300cc
Twin cylinder, air cooled, 350cc
Twin cylinder, four-stroke, liquid cooled, up to 300cc
NOTE: 125GP and MD 250 machines are not eligible for GT 250/300.

GT ULTRALIGHT
Single cylinder, liquid cooled, 4 stroke, up to 375cc
Twin cylinder, liquid cooled, 4 stroke, up to 325cc
Twin cylinder, air cooled, 400cc
NOTE: 125GP and MD 250 machines are not eligible for GT Ultralight.

Both classes run simultaneously scored separately.  This would include scoring amateurs and experts separately instead of the current combined system.

I really don't care about the rest.  It would just be nice to have a 20 minute GTL to do.

6.4.3 CCS Thunderbike Class displacement limits are absolute and are set as follows:
250/300 THUNDERBIKE (Amateur and Expert Combined)
Single cylinder, four-stroke liquid cooled, 300cc
Twin cylinder, air cooled, 350cc
Twin cylinder, four-stroke liquid cooled, up to 300cc
NOTE: 125GP and MD 250 machines are not eligible for 250/300 ThunderBike.

ULTRALIGHT THUNDERBIKE
Single cylinder, liquid cooled, 4 stroke, up to 375cc
Twin cylinder, liquid cooled, 4 stroke, up to 325cc
Twin cylinder, air cooled, up to 400cc
NOTE: 125GP and MD 250 machines are not eligible for Ultralight ThunderBike.

Again, both classes run simultaneously but scored separately.  This would include separate scoring of amateurs and experts in all classes.  Instead of the combined scoring currently taking place in ULTB.  This would also not add any additional races to the schedule.  It is hard enough to get through all the races in a weekend.

This would also put more money in CCS pockets since you can put more bikes on the grid.

Second, more drastic proposal with the removal of Heavy Weight classes and the 500 ss class.  Do that in order to be able to get through a full weekend.

6.1.3 - Displacement limits are absolute and are set as follows:
250 SUPERSPORT
Twin cylinder, liquid cooled, up to 250cc
Single cylinder, liquid cooled, up to 300cc

ULTRALIGHT SUPERSPORT
Single cylinder, air cooled, up to 400cc
Single cylinder, liquid cooled, 4 stroke, up to 375cc
Twin cylinder liquid cooled, 4 stroke, up to 321cc
Twin cylinder, air cooled, up to 350cc

These two classes would be run simultaneously but scored separately.

500 SUPERSPORT (Combined)
Single cylinder, up to 600cc
Twin cylinder, 2-stroke, up to 400cc
Twin cylinder, liquid cooled, non-desmodromic valves, up to 525cc
Twin cylinder, air cooled, up to 650cc
Four cylinder, liquid cooled, up to 400cc
Four cylinder, air cooled, 2 valve, up to 500cc
NOTE: Ducati/Bimota/BMW Supermono/Woods Rotax are excluded from this class.

HEAVYWEIGHT SUPERSPORT (Amateur & Expert Divisions)
Twin cylinder, liquid cooled, non-desmodromic valves, up to 1150cc
Twin cylinder, liquid cooled, up to 1000cc
Four cylinder, liquid cooled, up to 775cc
All other engine configurations, Unlimited displacement


6.2.2. SuperBike Class displacement limits are absolute and are set as follows:

ULTRALIGHT SUPERBIKE (Amateur & Expert Divisions)
Single cylinder, unlimited displacement, unlimited frame
Two stroke, liquid cooled, up to 375cc
Two stroke, air cooled, unlimited displacement
Twin cylinder, air cooled, non-desmodromic valves up to 900cc
Twin cylinder, air cooled, desmodromic valves, up to 805cc
Twin cylinder, liquid cooled, up to 650cc
Twin cylinder, liquid cooled, non-desmodromic valves, pre-1999 model year, up to 800cc
Three cylinder, air cooled, non-fuel injected, up to 900cc
Four cylinder, liquid cooled, pre-1987 model year, up to 570cc
Four cylinder, liquid cooled, 1987 to 1992 model year, up to 500cc
Four cylinder, air cooled, up to 750cc
Harley-Davidson Sportsters of unlimited displacement
Single cylinder, air cooled, up to 450cc
Single cylinder, liquid cooled, 4 stroke, up to 400cc
Twin cylinder, air cooled, up to 400cc
Twin cylinder, liquid cooled, 4 stroke, up to 355cc


HEAVYWEIGHT SUPERBIKE (Amateur & Expert Divisions)
Twin cylinder, liquid cooled, 4 valve per cylinder, up to 1150cc
Four cylinder, liquid cooled, up to 820cc
All other engine configurations, unlimited displacement


6.4.3 CCS Thunderbike Class displacement limits are absolute and are set as follows:
ULTRALIGHT THUNDERBIKE (Amateur and Expert Combined)
Single cylinder, four-stroke liquid cooled, 300cc 375cc
Twin cylinder, air cooled, 350cc
Twin cylinder, four-stroke liquid cooled, up to 325cc
NOTE: 125GP and MD 250 machines are not eligible for Ultralight ThunderBike.

6.5 GT - GT machines are unrestricted in all areas as long as they meet the standards of Section 5. CCS reserves the right to re-factor machines at any time. CCS will notify current licensees 30 days prior to any change. Changes will take effect 30 days from the original date of notification.

6.5.1 Class displacement limits are absolute and are set as follows:


GT ULTRALIGHT (Amateur and Expert Divisions)
Single cylinder, four-stroke liquid cooled, 300cc  400cc
Twin cylinder, air cooled, 350cc
Twin cylinder, four-stroke, liquid cooled, up to 300cc 355cc
NOTE: 125GP and MD 250 machines are not eligible for Ultralight Thunderbike GT.

GT 250 (Amateur and Expert Divisions)
Single cylinder, liquid cooled, 4 stroke, up to 300cc
Twin cylinder, liquid cooled, 4 stroke, up to 250cc
NOTE: 125GP and MD 250 machines are not eligible for GT 250.


GT Ultralight and GT 250 would be run simultaneously, along with GTL, but scored separately.

I don't see the above proposal ever happening since it would actually remove two races from the schedule.

A third option, which I haven't written up yet, is to run the RC390 and the R3 with the Ninjas but restrict them to Supersport rules when running in the ULTB and GT ULTB.

Pick apart at your leisure.

[britx303]

Woops! on my part.  I was mixing some things up in my head    I was thinking of USGPRU letting them in their moto3 class. I didnt realise CCS had a moto3 sprint class. Ive only ever payed attention to whatever I have been running in. Well I guess even if its decided to leave out the R3,it seems there are still a few races in a weekend it can still do.

[CHIRINOM]

Bike classes are always in transition.  There are HP wars in all the classes.  To just make a blanket statement that we aren't going to let these two bikes in because it wouldn't be fair to the others is crap.  Based on that, the Kawasaki 636 should never have been allowed into MW then.

The ultra lightweight isn't going to transition that much anyway.  These bikes are made to conform to European licensing restrictions (HP restriction) and displacement limits in the biggest markets; India, Malaysia, and Japan.

That is also why rules change.  They should evolve along with the state of what is going on in motorcycling.

Plus, I am just asking to run at the same time and score separately not compete directly against the Ninjas.  Specifically in GTL races.

Yamaha is also offering contingency for R3s now.  7 rider minimum though.

I asked Kevin about getting rid of the Heavy Weight class because there was really only one bike actually made for it (GSX-R 750).  He immediately stated the new Ducati 899 and MV800 just came out and they fit in the class.  Yet when you look at the results from that class, those bikes are few and far between. 

So we keep around a class because there are still some bikes made for it.  Yet bikes that are coming out and would fit well into an existing class are excluded.  The real reason we keep HW is because the 600s run in it and CCS is still making money off of it.

So why this obsessive protection of the Ninjas?  I would love to hear a real reason, not just "We just aren't going to let them in right now."  That is the answer a bad parent gives their child. 
Child: "Why Daddy?" 
Dad: "Because I said so."

That is the type of answer you give when either A: you don't have an answer, or, 2: you don't want to tell people the real reason.

Of course, looking at the results from BFR the last weekend in August I see a KTM 300 and a Metrakit 125 raced in ULTB and GT ULTB.  Not sure about the KTM, maybe it really was a 300, but I am pretty sure the Metrakit would be illegal.  Isn't that a 125 GP machine, or as Metrakit described it, a Pre-GP bike.  So I guess as long as no one protests I will be good.

I will post some rule proposals a little later.

I am with CCS on this one, the last thing we need is another bike coming in and out classing the other bikes which are currently competitive. It is bad enough that the 250 guys had to deal with the 300 being implemented after everyone ran out and bought 250s in 2012, just to be out classed the next season. Luckily we have been able to hold it somewhat together in FL and at least have one class where the majority of the riders have agreed to run 250 in stock trim. Regional club level racing should be about affordable racing not the manufacturer or the bike. Like you said the market is always evolving and growing. Regional club level riders should not have to run out and buy the latest and greatest in order to remain competitive. There should be at least one cost effective class among the classes. Having said that, there should be a plan to transition with a gradual time line. This will allow everyone to get on board and have time to plan.

When we started racing 250s we ran them on GTL until we had a following and then we were given the ULTB class. When we out grew that, we were given the GTUL class. This demonstrated that there is a desire to race the lighter weight bikes. The 500ss class is a perfect place to demonstrate what the 320 can do. You will have a chance to race against 250,300,390, and 500s in super sport trim. This will show everyone if there is an advantage, disadvantage, and or even the desire to buy a 320. By that time, we will start to see these bikes show up for sale 2nd hand. I prefer not to have to pay a monthly installments for a bike that I will be riding to the limit and likely having to rebuild a few times in the course of my racing it.

As for a GP bike or a 390 racing ULTB, it is up to the competitors to protest.

[trace33chargers]

At CCS last time, Bruce was on the Metrakit. I'm not a great rider, and I was riding just a tad bit slower than Bruce on that bike (and Bruce is fast) while I was on a Ninja250. So I would not call that a GP bike. The KTM 300 was a clerical error (there were many that weekend). That was a Ninja300.

If the grid marshal is doing his/her job, obviously illegal bikes should not make it to the grid.

Right now, I think the RC390 and R3 have enough classes and will just have to deal with racing in GTL. 500SS for spec-ish racing, Moto3 for more superbike rules, and then race up in GTL. If more of these Moto3 legal bikes start showing up, maybe you can get a GT class. The 2 that are showing up though aren't enough to cut it for their own class.

[Zaph]

I bought a 300 ninja specifically to race a competitive bike in ULTB.  I would be pretty upset if at this point R3 and RC390 were allowed in ULTB.

In my opinion, 500SS should be changed into an RC cup spec class. The CBR500 is a known turd that nobody wants. Maybe allow the R3's in that class, since they fit in better there than ULTB.

[Capitalview]

Right now, I think the RC390 and R3 have enough classes and will just have to deal with racing in GTL. 500SS for spec-ish racing, Moto3 for more superbike rules, and then race up in GTL. If more of these Moto3 legal bikes start showing up, maybe you can get a GT class. The 2 that are showing up though aren't enough to cut it for their own class.

I am guessing you guys either missed or didn't bother to read this:

GT 250/300 (Amateur and Expert Divisions)
Single cylinder, four-stroke liquid cooled, 300cc
Twin cylinder, air cooled, 350cc
Twin cylinder, four-stroke, liquid cooled, up to 300cc
NOTE: 125GP and MD 250 machines are not eligible for GT 250/300.

GT ULTRALIGHT
Single cylinder, liquid cooled, 4 stroke, up to 375cc
Twin cylinder, liquid cooled, 4 stroke, up to 325cc
Twin cylinder, air cooled, 400cc
NOTE: 125GP and MD 250 machines are not eligible for GT Ultralight.

My proposal was to run the R3 and 390 at the same time but scored SEPARATELY.  This keeps everyone happy.  250/300s aren't racing against the R3 and 390 and the R3 and 390 get their own GT race.  It wouldn't cost CCS anything to do and would put extra money in their pockets. 

If I had my way, the 250 class would be completely separate from the Ninja 300s too.  The 250s would run the same time as the rest of UL classes but just be scored separately.

As for not enough bike to have their own class, there were 5 bikes (all KTMs) in the 500SS class and 7 bikes in the GTUL race, a combo of 250s and 300s, this last race at BFR.  To say there are not enough bikes to make a class is not true.  The R3 was held up due to dock workers strike so is late to the game.

I got lucky and found my R3 second hand.  I also sold my SV, a whole bunch of spares, and only raced one weekend so I could save up to pay for it. No payments.

At CCS last time, Bruce was on the Metrakit. I'm not a great rider, and I was riding just a tad bit slower than Bruce on that bike (and Bruce is fast) while I was on a Ninja250. So I would not call that a GP bike. The KTM 300 was a clerical error (there were many that weekend). That was a Ninja300.

If the grid marshal is doing his/her job, obviously illegal bikes should not make it to the grid.

As for the Metrakit, it doesn't qualify for the class because single cylinders must be 4 stroke.  The Metrakit is a 2 stroke liquid cooled bike.  2 strokes can only be air cooled in UL class.

To the comment about not needing another bike coming in and outclassing the existing bike, then explain to me what the 1100 Ducatis are allowed in the LW class while the SV was still competitive.  Heck, the Ninja 250 is 14 years OLDER than the SV!  Why is CCS protecting one group of bikes yet screwing another over by letting in a bike that outclasses the SV in HP, which is what most are complaining about with the R3 and 390.  Seems most are ignoring the fact that there is more to racing a motorcycle than HP.

Sorry for being a pain in the ass and harping on this.