More Lightweight discussion

Started by jfboothe, October 31, 2014, 03:52:53 PM

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Farmboy

#36
Quote from: Swiest on December 15, 2014, 04:04:43 PM
85hp Sv can run for years and only cost $2k to build. That's 15hp over stock. 

I'm asking because I don't know, how much would it cost to put a ducati 10-15hp over stock? What mods would it take?

Pump HP out of either motor it's going to
A: cost a fck ton to build, B: cost a fck ton in maintenance or C: A&B

But the ducati is going to cost more to build right?

jfboothe said it right, a near-stock DS can already make that power, easily.

Your later statement that the 2 bikes making the same hp aren't the same, well, that's right, but not exactly right. As Gino pointed out, there are deficiencies in many of the Ducati chassis which will negate the benefits of big power. SVs tend to be lighter than most Ducs. Moreover, though, the two bikes make completely different power, with the SV making HP thru revs and the Duc making big torque courtesy of displacement and 2 valves. The 2 motors require completely different riding styles. Most guys try to ride Ducatis like a japanese bike, overreving them, which does little good and will also break them in a hurry.
Put a rider on a well set up and appropriately chassied Duc who knows how to use the torque, and he and the additional 20 ft/lbs or so of torque will give a same-hp SV fits, on any track. Buell guys know about torque, I've raced with enough of them who didn't have proper gearing for a given track and so set the bike up with super-tall gearing and ran them as a four sp(!), at the front of the pack, on very technical tracks (Mid Ohio, Topeka, etc).


Having said that, assuming again that the chassis are equally capable, give me the 10k that someone mentioned for building an SV properly, and I can come away with a monster of a Duc motor, easily 110 at that point, which will still be more reliable than a comparably built and performing SV motor. I mentioned the DS motor I have, which made 95 rwhp and 67 (perfectly curved) ft/lbs torque using 93 octane pump gas(10% ethanol, even)on the Dynojet dyno they used to have a Safety First. I see some impressive numbers mentioned here with less mods, but all dynos are different, so whatever. Anyway, I built my bike from new, I know whats in it, as follows:

-Pistal 11.25:1 forged pistons (stock disp) - Ducshop, 495.00
-DP Hypermotard cams, DP catalog - 600.00 (that's what they were then , with an ECU, which was NOT compatible with the can-bus on the S2R, but, I swear, that's what they cost at the time.)
-Heads (Lightly) ported and 2mm over intake valves along with MBP keepers by Ducshop - this I don't remember clearly. The valves were probably 80 each, I provided the keepers at 125.00, I can't remember the labor. I'd say 400-500 sounds about right. (Incidentally, these heads are worth big coin nowadays)
-Lightweight flywheel - 200.00
-Powerjet Power Commander - 325.00

Now, that doesn't include the full exhaust, which was admittedly, I think, 1100.00, but that is still under 2k on everything else, and definitely 10+ hp over stock. I suspect, too, that with a different, more ideal exhaust such as that on an SS, this motor would make more - the S2R exhaust has many theoretical compromises. Moreover, though, all 105 hp would take is a 1080 kit, which could be done for 1500.00 or so, and it would still be a reliable (translation: multiple season bike easily) motor compared to again, a comparably built SV. I intentionally left my bike at stock displacement as I figured I would wait until it needed freshening and do the overbore at that point. Plus, I'm stupid, so I keep it simple - no slipper clutches, no fancy brakes, no triple clickers, hell, usually not even a steering damper...

That may sound like not a lot of power for a lot of dough, but ask anyone here who may have been down at Daytona in '09 about that bike, which was naked to boot. I know Gino was there as an expert, I remember him. I was there as an amateur, but the bike ran the fifth fastest lap times overall in the lightweight races I was in, I believe the times may still be listed on the site. And, it dominated in the MW, GP, and I even pulled a Thunderbike win out at Mid O in the GNRCC, all on one of the illest handling chassis you can imagine. Sorry man, not bragging, just saying.

Having said all THAT, my old (carbed) M has never even been on a dyno, and I'd be surprised if it made even 80 hp. But, that is a very good chassis, and has beaten many very powerful SVs on tracks ranging from RA to Topeka to BHF.

Again, sorry, just giving testimony. And again, only because so many would dismiss the Duc out of hand immediately. I'm posting up what I know to be true, and I've been riding the Ducs on the track since '04, with not one mechanical issue. Not. One. I've also ridden several SVs, from stock to 95hp trim, so I've experienced first hand the differences in the 2. Maybe the SV is easier to ride, but I don't think so, as long as you learn how to ride the Duc.

Regarding the debate, well, it's nice to see this kind of activity on the board again. Also, I want to reiterate that I think SVs are VERY good bikes. When it comes to whether or not Ducs should be in lightweight, well, I don't see CCS kicking them out soon as they aren't likely to forego the customers, and the Ducs are generally not going to be competitive in MW, even at 120hp, which requires a full-on build - $$$. One more time, a good rider will go fast on just about anything. Ed Key was right at the front at Daytona on his SVs right up until he retired. Remember the spoon.


Oh, and Swiest, I checked your sites and rider results, and I see how well you've done out in Cali, which I understand is extremely competitive and serious, so I certainly am not lecturing in any way. Just relating my personal experiences with Ducs.  :thumb:
Jim Berard CCS MW#904

Grasshopper

Jim, over last 10 years we have built 2. One motor broke because the trans locked up in 4th. I was at Grattan with a freight train behind me. Managed not to fall down but skidded the rear for 100 yards.

Nicholas

Grasshopper

#38
Quote from: Swiest on December 15, 2014, 09:19:00 PM
You can have 100hp+ SV last but you need to dump $10k into motor. 

The stock Crank does snap past 85 hp easily.  Ligthen and balance crank can help.  Putting BDK helps the most, basically gets rid of all weight at end of the crank where it snaps.  The billet crank is way to go if you want over 90hp on SV, but thats $2500.  But strengthened crank just leads to the next weak spot exposed.  Valves/springs, Cases if you're second gen, transmission....

10 grand for a motor build? It's not the space shuttle. Where are you getting that number?

- Balanced and lightened crank (which is the number 1 thing for longevity) - 600
- Pistons / top end kit - 500 or 600
- Gaskets - 100
- Head work - 1500 - 2000 (this is where the power and money is at)
- Trans undercut and treatment - 400 -500
- Carbs - 1000



Worst case from the ground up 5 grand. Understand I have spent the last 10 years putting all this stuff together little by little.


But I want to know who your motor builder is that is charging you 5 grand to build a motor?


Now you start talking suspension I can understand how a couple more bucks can be spent.


- Shock - 1000 - 1500
- Stock forks with cartriges 500
- Gsxr Front end setup 500 - 1000

Wheels and spare wheels 700 ish


Misc rearsets, controls, subframe another 1000

So I can understand another couple grand in getting the bike all right.

If you buy a 2500 dollar SV and set it all up from the ground up you can have 10 grand into it.


Nicholas

LWT Racer

Crank. $2500  <- I'm not gonna push 100hp+ on stock crank.
Rods $600
Heads $1500-2000
Pistons $500
Trans $500
Cams - $900 (webb)
BDK Genny - $900
Slipper clutch - $900-1200 (sigma race version is more $$)
Gaskets - $100
Crank bearings - $50
Rod Bearings - $50


Then labor if you're paying someone to put it all together.


I don't pay other people. But I also wouldn't even spend $2k on a my own motor build, not worth it to me.
Sam Wiest #60
TWF Racing | LWT Racer
Lighweight Racing - The struggle is real.

LWT Racer

I forgot APE studs ($150), tentioners($100), and sprockets ($300).
Sam Wiest #60
TWF Racing | LWT Racer
Lighweight Racing - The struggle is real.

Grasshopper

Ha ha... yea it adds up pretty quick. Sick bastards we are...
Nicholas

Farmboy

Alright, who's the pinhead who neg-repped me just cause I weighed in?  :finger:  Some Sv riding Duc hater baby I'm sure.  :wah: Better not have been you Nick, or I'll give you a noogie next month.  :cheers:
Jim Berard CCS MW#904

Farmboy

Quote from: Grasshopper on December 18, 2014, 12:29:24 PM
Jim, over last 10 years we have built 2. One motor broke because the trans locked up in 4th. I was at Grattan with a freight train behind me. Managed not to fall down but skidded the rear for 100 yards.




My bad then. I thought you had done more.
Jim Berard CCS MW#904

MELK-MAN

Quote from: Farmboy on December 18, 2014, 11:46:39 PM
Alright, who's the pinhead who neg-repped me just cause I weighed in?  :finger:  Some Sv riding Duc hater baby I'm sure.  :wah: Better not have been you Nick, or I'll give you a noogie next month.  :cheers:

i just "applauded" ya to even it out .. :)
2012 FL region & 2014 South East overall champion
Pro Flow Tech Performance Fuel Injector Service
MICHELIN, EBC, Silkolene, JenningsGP, Engine Ice

Grasshopper

Quote from: Grasshopper on December 18, 2014, 12:29:24 PM
Jim, over last 10 years we have built 2. One motor broke because the trans locked up in 4th. I was at Grattan with a freight train behind me. Managed not to fall down but skidded the rear for 100 yards.

No way I would ever neg rep you dude. See you at the banquet
Quote from: Farmboy on December 18, 2014, 11:46:39 PM
Alright, who's the pinhead who neg-repped me just cause I weighed in?  :finger:  Some Sv riding Duc hater baby I'm sure.  :wah: Better not have been you Nick, or I'll give you a noogie next month.  :cheers:
Nicholas