More Lightweight discussion

Started by jfboothe, October 31, 2014, 03:52:53 PM

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jfboothe

 I really shouldn't step into this heated lightweight class discussion but I have been trying to decide what I want to do for next year. 2014 was my first year racing. I had a 2004 749s so that's what I raced. It fit well and was competitive in the CSS Thunderbike and LWF40 class (since I am an old beginning racer). I chose to race CCS because they were the only organization that had a place for that bike and that's what I have. While I only got to race a few weekends, I did well enough, learned a lot, met some great people and had such a great time, I plan to get a little more serious next year.

So I am looking to possibly sell the 749 to get another bike I could race in other classes and maybe other organizations. I'm not married to the Ducati brand but I know it and like it so I looked at my Ducati options. I also want to stay in lighter weight classes. One option is to get a used Monster 796 set up cheap (rearsets, a shock, fairing and maybe an exhaust). I am on a budget so if I sell the 749 and find a used 796 the additional cost would be minimal. There are some racing in other orgs and it has a 803cc air-cooled engine putting out about 75hp. Reviewing the classes from WERA and CCS, it is very obvious that the WERA class structure has been set up to cater to the SV and it is not at all friendly to other brands of bikes. I think the only classes in WERA that it would work well in is D Superstock/Superbike and Lightweight Solo. It won't even fit in to Lightweight Twins (Superbike or Superstock) since the limit is 800 cc for LWT and the 796 is technically 803cc. Maybe I could petition WERA to include it since they allow the Ducati 900SS/1000DS/1100DS in Superbike. With CCS on the other hand I could race in Lightweight Supersport, Ultra-Light Superbike, Lightweight Superbike, Lightweight GP, Thunderbike, GTL and LWF40 with no issues.

Everyone gets all excited about the definition of a lightweight bike. I am not trying to pour gas on this fire but this bike is an 803cc 2 valve air-cooled engine and it is disappointing that it doesn't fit into WERAs definition of a lightweight bike. But I guess that's ok since I enjoy racing with CCS anyway.

WERA-

D SUPERSTOCK EXPERT & NOVICE and D SUPERBIKE EXPERT & NOVICE
Up to 883cc 4-stroke air-cooled twins
LIGHTWEIGHT TWINS SUPERBIKE EXPERT & NOVICE and LIGHTWEIGHT TWINS SUPERSTOCK EXPERT & NOVICE
Up to 800cc air-cooled twins
SOLO CLASSES:
Lightweight Expert & Novice - 125 Grand Prix, Clubman, Lightweight Twins and D class machines.

CCS-

LIGHTWEIGHT SUPERSPORT (Amateur & Expert Divisions)
Twin cylinder, air cooled, up to 1210cc
ULTRA-LIGHT SUPERBIKE (Amateur & Expert Divisions)
Twin cylinder, air cooled, desmodromic valves, up to 805cc
LIGHTWEIGHT SUPERBIKE (Amateur & Expert Divisions)
Twin cylinder, air cooled, up to 1210cc
LIGHTWEIGHT GRAND PRIX (Amateur & Expert Divisions)
Twin cylinder, air cooled, up to 1210cc
THUNDERBIKE (Amateur and Expert)
All air-cooled, 2-valve, unlimited displacement
GTL – (Amateur & Expert Divisions)
Displacement as per Lightweight Grand Prix
LIGHTWEIGHT FORMULA 40 (Amateur & Expert Divisions)
All air-cooled, 2-valve, unlimited displacement

MACOP1104

Buy Gino's hybrid.  I think it's down to 20 grand now....

The 803 is allowed in WERA D superstock/superbike

LWT Racer

Depends how many classes you want to Race.  The 800 air cooled duc is good bike for both club but it won't be as handy stock as the SV is.   Dump $$$ into it then you can get good HP ( 100ish)




You get 5 races with WERA: D SS & SBK, LWT SS & SBK, Formula 2, Lwt Solo

7 races with CCS, the ones you listed.


Sam Wiest #60
TWF Racing | LWT Racer
Lighweight Racing - The struggle is real.

MACOP1104

Also, most of the WERA rounds in 2015 will be twin sprint weekends so double it and you can also add Heavyweight twins.

Gino230


Don't worry about adding fuel to the fire, we are so desperate for racing discussion here on the CCS forum that we will re-hash the same argument about 5 times per year. The Ducati is a cheater bike. The SV is vintage. Etc, etc, etc.  :cheers:

Honestly if I was in your situation, I'm not sure what I would do. The lack of modern options is kind of annoying. Yes I spent ALOT of money on the hybrid. I love it but it's also limited in what classes it is legal for, and if you're going to spend all that money to race HW twins you should just get an 848. I built that because I love bikes, love Ducatis, and had some parts and money to start with so I figured what the hell. Certainly not for everyone.

I loved my stock 1000DS, it was competitive and ran forever. For CCS that would be my pick. Paul smart is the best Ducati to have for CCS, but they are pretty pricey. My second choice would be an 800SS, that has always seemed like a fun bike and they can be built pretty reliably to 85-90HP running C-12 fuel. You will be right there with the SV's, they have less HP but they are lighter and will handle better with less invested in the suspension. You will be VERY competitive in the Ultra LW class, and all the WERA classes.

I can't really comment on the Monster, I have never ridden that chassis but it seems like it would be a good bike. Mavros has one and it's competitive.

Bottom line: with the 800 you can't go wrong in WERA. With the 1000 you can't go wrong in CCS! You say you are not married to the Ducati brand, so I'll mention this- my brother had an SV superbike that was very fun to ride, so if you're considering WERA maybe you should consider that. When in Rome.....


PS, I might add that before you pull the trigger consider this: If you're still racing amateur, why not run the 749 another year? Depending on your age and state of tune, you could run LWF40, Thunderbike, and throw in a couple of MW races just for fun. No, you probably won't win in MW, but it's my experience that the MW classes are much larger, and in the AM ranks there's always someone to race with. Might make you a better racer in the mean time. Just a thought.
CCS / ASRA EX # 23
2012 Ducati 848 / 1100 Conversion     2005 Ducati 749RS
2006 CCS Florida Thunderbike Champion (AM)
2008 CCS LW Supersport National Champion (EX) 2nd in 2011 and now  2012....damn you Mavros!

jfboothe

 The 796 Monster was just an idea that came up over lunch with the guys from the local Indy Ducati shop and makes a lot of sense. If I happen to find a good deal on one or find one that's a salvage deal maybe I will give it a try for next year. I like the idea of having the option of more lightweight classes and that's when I started looking to see where it would fit in WERA and CCS.

So talking about the SV and since it's going to be a long winter (and Gino just wants to liven things up around here and talk racing), what makes it so good? I have never ridden one. I don't think the chassis was ever designed from the start as a race platform. I know it's pretty cheap to start with and develop. Is it because it's very lightweight?

LWT Racer

#6
It's not that light. Weighs same as a 600.

It's good because they are easy to ride. You can make mistakes and bike is forgiving.  Good for beginner, fun for expert.  Lot's of parts out there.   Relatively easy on tires.   And if you want to put in a good lap time, you have to ride it insanely hard.  Forces you to fly through each corner and not just point and shoot.   Chassis is forgiving with set up.  Some of the GSXR parts can be used (rearsets, wheels, forks).




Never ridden monster but I have ridden 800 and 1100 air cooled ducs. 800 is bleh.  1100 is..... perfect. BUT neither was on the track.
Sam Wiest #60
TWF Racing | LWT Racer
Lighweight Racing - The struggle is real.

Gino230

If I remember correctly, the REALLY fast SV's had alot of work done to them....big bore kit, lightened stator and flywheel, flatslides, Wheels, GSXR front end, etc. I don't know what the average level of mods is, the fastest SV we had down here recently was Pony's, and Mavros bought it to get Pony out of LW. Now we do have Lucas Silva going very quick on an SV, and Santiago Villa doing the same.....not sure about the state of tune of the bikes.

I do recall that I had very little invested in my 1000DS and it was quite competitive. Chain, sprockets, rebuilt engine breather and custom breather box, Lightweight fairing stay, bodywork, pipe and power commander. I was even using stock rearsets- Eventually I lightened it up with a fuel cell and added a quick shifter. Revalved suspension and I lengthened the rear shock to get more rear ride height. That was about it. Not bad for a national level race prep! A little heavy but it made 93 HP I think, with the stock airbox lid intact for supersport. Eventually I added a slipper clutch and Brembo master too.
CCS / ASRA EX # 23
2012 Ducati 848 / 1100 Conversion     2005 Ducati 749RS
2006 CCS Florida Thunderbike Champion (AM)
2008 CCS LW Supersport National Champion (EX) 2nd in 2011 and now  2012....damn you Mavros!

LWT Racer

You can get 90hp+ out of stock bore SV. Big bore is a waste and puts a lot more stress on the crank.   Big pistons are very heavy vs the OEM ones.   Going big bore is just easier route to get the power then keeping it as a 645cc machine.
Sam Wiest #60
TWF Racing | LWT Racer
Lighweight Racing - The struggle is real.

Gino230

So what kind of mods are we talking about? Or is that Top Secret? 90 HP seems pretty stout.....I think the 565 Mavros built made about 107. Our bikes are in the 125 range but that is on the MotoCorse dyno, which I think is about 15% higher than a regular dynojet.
CCS / ASRA EX # 23
2012 Ducati 848 / 1100 Conversion     2005 Ducati 749RS
2006 CCS Florida Thunderbike Champion (AM)
2008 CCS LW Supersport National Champion (EX) 2nd in 2011 and now  2012....damn you Mavros!

LWT Racer

No secret. 
Pistons (lightweight high comp), good head work, big cams, bigger tbodies / flatslides. With light weight pistons, rods, and flywheel (or BDK) you don't even need to put in the $2500 crank.   

The tame 565's are about 110hp.  The SBK 565 is 125.   

Sam Wiest #60
TWF Racing | LWT Racer
Lighweight Racing - The struggle is real.

Capitalview

Quote from: Swiest on November 03, 2014, 12:08:56 PM
No secret. 
Pistons (lightweight high comp), good head work, big cams, bigger tbodies / flatslides. With light weight pistons, rods, and flywheel (or BDK) you don't even need to put in the $2500 crank.   

The tame 565's are about 110hp.  The SBK 565 is 125.   



This is about $3500..  That is if you can find some of the parts used...