So now that moto3 has changed some stuff around for the 390,ninja 300 and R3,or whatever they did...........any word on Ultralight TB bumping up displacement for the R3?
Kevin Elliott's comments to me earlier this year were that the KTM and the R3 were going to be eligible for 500 supersport race, but that he was going to leave the Ultralight Thunderbike and GT Ultralight races were going to remain 300cc limits
You can race those bikes in moto3 now.
Be nice to be able to run in GTUL though. Instead of being scored against the Ducs and SVs in GTL. I would be very happy to run the same time with the ninjas and scored separately. Don't even need to put out a new entry form. Just write in GTUL 2 or UTLB 2 or something like that. Just to have a third race option. Plus it would put more money into CCS pockets.
The small bike market is growing. Better to embrace it than to fight it.
I don't think the small bike market has found itself yet. When it was just Kawi in the game it was simple. I think it would be a problem to classify all the ULW bikes at this time. What we are experiencing now is transition.
Quote from: bruce71198 on September 04, 2015, 10:13:04 AM
I don't think the small bike market has found itself yet. When it was just Kawi in the game it was simple. I think it would be a problem to classify all the ULW bikes at this time. What we are experiencing now is transition.
Bike classes are always in transition. There are HP wars in all the classes. To just make a blanket statement that we aren't going to let these two bikes in because it wouldn't be fair to the others is crap. Based on that, the Kawasaki 636 should never have been allowed into MW then.
The ultra lightweight isn't going to transition that much anyway. These bikes are made to conform to European licensing restrictions (HP restriction) and displacement limits in the biggest markets; India, Malaysia, and Japan.
That is also why rules change. They should evolve along with the state of what is going on in motorcycling.
Plus, I am just asking to run at the same time and score separately not compete directly against the Ninjas. Specifically in GTL races.
Yamaha is also offering contingency for R3s now. 7 rider minimum though.
I asked Kevin about getting rid of the Heavy Weight class because there was really only one bike actually made for it (GSX-R 750). He immediately stated the new Ducati 899 and MV800 just came out and they fit in the class. Yet when you look at the results from that class, those bikes are few and far between.
So we keep around a class because there are still some bikes made for it. Yet bikes that are coming out and would fit well into an existing class are excluded. The real reason we keep HW is because the 600s run in it and CCS is still making money off of it.
So why this obsessive protection of the Ninjas? I would love to hear a real reason, not just "We just aren't going to let them in right now." That is the answer a bad parent gives their child.
Child: "Why Daddy?"
Dad: "Because I said so."
That is the type of answer you give when either A: you don't have an answer, or, 2: you don't want to tell people the real reason.
Of course, looking at the results from BFR the last weekend in August I see a KTM 300 and a Metrakit 125 raced in ULTB and GT ULTB. Not sure about the KTM, maybe it really was a 300, but I am pretty sure the Metrakit would be illegal. Isn't that a 125 GP machine, or as Metrakit described it, a Pre-GP bike. So I guess as long as no one protests I will be good.
I will post some rule proposals a little later.
First proposal
GT 250/300 (Amateur and Expert Divisions)
Single cylinder, four-stroke liquid cooled, 300cc
Twin cylinder, air cooled, 350cc
Twin cylinder, four-stroke, liquid cooled, up to 300cc
NOTE: 125GP and MD 250 machines are not eligible for GT 250/300.
GT ULTRALIGHT
Single cylinder, liquid cooled, 4 stroke, up to 375cc
Twin cylinder, liquid cooled, 4 stroke, up to 325cc
Twin cylinder, air cooled, 400cc
NOTE: 125GP and MD 250 machines are not eligible for GT Ultralight.
Both classes run simultaneously scored separately. This would include scoring amateurs and experts separately instead of the current combined system.
I really don't care about the rest. It would just be nice to have a 20 minute GTL to do.
6.4.3 CCS Thunderbike Class displacement limits are absolute and are set as follows:
250/300 THUNDERBIKE (Amateur and Expert Combined)
Single cylinder, four-stroke liquid cooled, 300cc
Twin cylinder, air cooled, 350cc
Twin cylinder, four-stroke liquid cooled, up to 300cc
NOTE: 125GP and MD 250 machines are not eligible for 250/300 ThunderBike.
ULTRALIGHT THUNDERBIKE
Single cylinder, liquid cooled, 4 stroke, up to 375cc
Twin cylinder, liquid cooled, 4 stroke, up to 325cc
Twin cylinder, air cooled, up to 400cc
NOTE: 125GP and MD 250 machines are not eligible for Ultralight ThunderBike.
Again, both classes run simultaneously but scored separately. This would include separate scoring of amateurs and experts in all classes. Instead of the combined scoring currently taking place in ULTB. This would also not add any additional races to the schedule. It is hard enough to get through all the races in a weekend.
This would also put more money in CCS pockets since you can put more bikes on the grid.
Second, more drastic proposal with the removal of Heavy Weight classes and the 500 ss class. Do that in order to be able to get through a full weekend.
6.1.3 - Displacement limits are absolute and are set as follows:
250 SUPERSPORT
Twin cylinder, liquid cooled, up to 250cc
Single cylinder, liquid cooled, up to 300cc
ULTRALIGHT SUPERSPORT
Single cylinder, air cooled, up to 400cc
Single cylinder, liquid cooled, 4 stroke, up to 375cc
Twin cylinder liquid cooled, 4 stroke, up to 321cc
Twin cylinder, air cooled, up to 350cc
These two classes would be run simultaneously but scored separately.
500 SUPERSPORT (Combined)
Single cylinder, up to 600cc
Twin cylinder, 2-stroke, up to 400cc
Twin cylinder, liquid cooled, non-desmodromic valves, up to 525cc
Twin cylinder, air cooled, up to 650cc
Four cylinder, liquid cooled, up to 400cc
Four cylinder, air cooled, 2 valve, up to 500cc
NOTE: Ducati/Bimota/BMW Supermono/Woods Rotax are excluded from this class.
HEAVYWEIGHT SUPERSPORT (Amateur & Expert Divisions)
Twin cylinder, liquid cooled, non-desmodromic valves, up to 1150cc
Twin cylinder, liquid cooled, up to 1000cc
Four cylinder, liquid cooled, up to 775cc
All other engine configurations, Unlimited displacement
6.2.2. SuperBike Class displacement limits are absolute and are set as follows:
ULTRALIGHT SUPERBIKE (Amateur & Expert Divisions)
Single cylinder, unlimited displacement, unlimited frame
Two stroke, liquid cooled, up to 375cc
Two stroke, air cooled, unlimited displacement
Twin cylinder, air cooled, non-desmodromic valves up to 900cc
Twin cylinder, air cooled, desmodromic valves, up to 805cc
Twin cylinder, liquid cooled, up to 650cc
Twin cylinder, liquid cooled, non-desmodromic valves, pre-1999 model year, up to 800cc
Three cylinder, air cooled, non-fuel injected, up to 900cc
Four cylinder, liquid cooled, pre-1987 model year, up to 570cc
Four cylinder, liquid cooled, 1987 to 1992 model year, up to 500cc
Four cylinder, air cooled, up to 750cc
Harley-Davidson Sportsters of unlimited displacement
Single cylinder, air cooled, up to 450cc
Single cylinder, liquid cooled, 4 stroke, up to 400cc
Twin cylinder, air cooled, up to 400cc
Twin cylinder, liquid cooled, 4 stroke, up to 355cc
HEAVYWEIGHT SUPERBIKE (Amateur & Expert Divisions)
Twin cylinder, liquid cooled, 4 valve per cylinder, up to 1150cc
Four cylinder, liquid cooled, up to 820cc
All other engine configurations, unlimited displacement
6.4.3 CCS Thunderbike Class displacement limits are absolute and are set as follows:
ULTRALIGHT THUNDERBIKE (Amateur and Expert Combined)
Single cylinder, four-stroke liquid cooled, 300cc 375cc
Twin cylinder, air cooled, 350cc
Twin cylinder, four-stroke liquid cooled, up to 325cc
NOTE: 125GP and MD 250 machines are not eligible for Ultralight ThunderBike.
6.5 GT - GT machines are unrestricted in all areas as long as they meet the standards of Section 5. CCS reserves the right to re-factor machines at any time. CCS will notify current licensees 30 days prior to any change. Changes will take effect 30 days from the original date of notification.
6.5.1 Class displacement limits are absolute and are set as follows:
GT ULTRALIGHT (Amateur and Expert Divisions)
Single cylinder, four-stroke liquid cooled, 300cc 400cc
Twin cylinder, air cooled, 350cc
Twin cylinder, four-stroke, liquid cooled, up to 300cc 355cc
NOTE: 125GP and MD 250 machines are not eligible for Ultralight Thunderbike GT.
GT 250 (Amateur and Expert Divisions)
Single cylinder, liquid cooled, 4 stroke, up to 300cc
Twin cylinder, liquid cooled, 4 stroke, up to 250cc
NOTE: 125GP and MD 250 machines are not eligible for GT 250.
GT Ultralight and GT 250 would be run simultaneously, along with GTL, but scored separately.
I don't see the above proposal ever happening since it would actually remove two races from the schedule.
A third option, which I haven't written up yet, is to run the RC390 and the R3 with the Ninjas but restrict them to Supersport rules when running in the ULTB and GT ULTB.
Pick apart at your leisure.
Woops! on my part. I was mixing some things up in my head :banghead: I was thinking of USGPRU letting them in their moto3 class. I didnt realise CCS had a moto3 sprint class. Ive only ever payed attention to whatever I have been running in. Well I guess even if its decided to leave out the R3,it seems there are still a few races in a weekend it can still do.
Quote from: Capitalview on September 04, 2015, 03:53:49 PM
Bike classes are always in transition. There are HP wars in all the classes. To just make a blanket statement that we aren't going to let these two bikes in because it wouldn't be fair to the others is crap. Based on that, the Kawasaki 636 should never have been allowed into MW then.
The ultra lightweight isn't going to transition that much anyway. These bikes are made to conform to European licensing restrictions (HP restriction) and displacement limits in the biggest markets; India, Malaysia, and Japan.
That is also why rules change. They should evolve along with the state of what is going on in motorcycling.
Plus, I am just asking to run at the same time and score separately not compete directly against the Ninjas. Specifically in GTL races.
Yamaha is also offering contingency for R3s now. 7 rider minimum though.
I asked Kevin about getting rid of the Heavy Weight class because there was really only one bike actually made for it (GSX-R 750). He immediately stated the new Ducati 899 and MV800 just came out and they fit in the class. Yet when you look at the results from that class, those bikes are few and far between.
So we keep around a class because there are still some bikes made for it. Yet bikes that are coming out and would fit well into an existing class are excluded. The real reason we keep HW is because the 600s run in it and CCS is still making money off of it.
So why this obsessive protection of the Ninjas? I would love to hear a real reason, not just "We just aren't going to let them in right now." That is the answer a bad parent gives their child.
Child: "Why Daddy?"
Dad: "Because I said so."
That is the type of answer you give when either A: you don't have an answer, or, 2: you don't want to tell people the real reason.
Of course, looking at the results from BFR the last weekend in August I see a KTM 300 and a Metrakit 125 raced in ULTB and GT ULTB. Not sure about the KTM, maybe it really was a 300, but I am pretty sure the Metrakit would be illegal. Isn't that a 125 GP machine, or as Metrakit described it, a Pre-GP bike. So I guess as long as no one protests I will be good.
I will post some rule proposals a little later.
I am with CCS on this one, the last thing we need is another bike coming in and out classing the other bikes which are currently competitive. It is bad enough that the 250 guys had to deal with the 300 being implemented after everyone ran out and bought 250s in 2012, just to be out classed the next season. Luckily we have been able to hold it somewhat together in FL and at least have one class where the majority of the riders have agreed to run 250 in stock trim. Regional club level racing should be about affordable racing not the manufacturer or the bike. Like you said the market is always evolving and growing. Regional club level riders should not have to run out and buy the latest and greatest in order to remain competitive. There should be at least one cost effective class among the classes. Having said that, there should be a plan to transition with a gradual time line. This will allow everyone to get on board and have time to plan.
When we started racing 250s we ran them on GTL until we had a following and then we were given the ULTB class. When we out grew that, we were given the GTUL class. This demonstrated that there is a desire to race the lighter weight bikes. The 500ss class is a perfect place to demonstrate what the 320 can do. You will have a chance to race against 250,300,390, and 500s in super sport trim. This will show everyone if there is an advantage, disadvantage, and or even the desire to buy a 320. By that time, we will start to see these bikes show up for sale 2nd hand. I prefer not to have to pay a monthly installments for a bike that I will be riding to the limit and likely having to rebuild a few times in the course of my racing it.
As for a GP bike or a 390 racing ULTB, it is up to the competitors to protest.
At CCS last time, Bruce was on the Metrakit. I'm not a great rider, and I was riding just a tad bit slower than Bruce on that bike (and Bruce is fast) while I was on a Ninja250. So I would not call that a GP bike. The KTM 300 was a clerical error (there were many that weekend). That was a Ninja300.
If the grid marshal is doing his/her job, obviously illegal bikes should not make it to the grid.
Right now, I think the RC390 and R3 have enough classes and will just have to deal with racing in GTL. 500SS for spec-ish racing, Moto3 for more superbike rules, and then race up in GTL. If more of these Moto3 legal bikes start showing up, maybe you can get a GT class. The 2 that are showing up though aren't enough to cut it for their own class.
I bought a 300 ninja specifically to race a competitive bike in ULTB. I would be pretty upset if at this point R3 and RC390 were allowed in ULTB.
In my opinion, 500SS should be changed into an RC cup spec class. The CBR500 is a known turd that nobody wants. Maybe allow the R3's in that class, since they fit in better there than ULTB.
Quote from: trace33chargers on September 09, 2015, 01:48:26 PM
Right now, I think the RC390 and R3 have enough classes and will just have to deal with racing in GTL. 500SS for spec-ish racing, Moto3 for more superbike rules, and then race up in GTL. If more of these Moto3 legal bikes start showing up, maybe you can get a GT class. The 2 that are showing up though aren't enough to cut it for their own class.
I am guessing you guys either missed or didn't bother to read this:
GT 250/300 (Amateur and Expert Divisions)
Single cylinder, four-stroke liquid cooled, 300cc
Twin cylinder, air cooled, 350cc
Twin cylinder, four-stroke, liquid cooled, up to 300cc
NOTE: 125GP and MD 250 machines are not eligible for GT 250/300.
GT ULTRALIGHT
Single cylinder, liquid cooled, 4 stroke, up to 375cc
Twin cylinder, liquid cooled, 4 stroke, up to 325cc
Twin cylinder, air cooled, 400cc
NOTE: 125GP and MD 250 machines are not eligible for GT Ultralight.
My proposal was to run the R3 and 390 at the same time but scored SEPARATELY. This keeps everyone happy. 250/300s aren't racing against the R3 and 390 and the R3 and 390 get their own GT race. It wouldn't cost CCS anything to do and would put extra money in their pockets.
If I had my way, the 250 class would be completely separate from the Ninja 300s too. The 250s would run the same time as the rest of UL classes but just be scored separately.
As for not enough bike to have their own class, there were 5 bikes (all KTMs) in the 500SS class and 7 bikes in the GTUL race, a combo of 250s and 300s, this last race at BFR. To say there are not enough bikes to make a class is not true. The R3 was held up due to dock workers strike so is late to the game.
I got lucky and found my R3 second hand. I also sold my SV, a whole bunch of spares, and only raced one weekend so I could save up to pay for it. No payments.
Quote from: trace33chargers on September 09, 2015, 01:48:26 PM
At CCS last time, Bruce was on the Metrakit. I'm not a great rider, and I was riding just a tad bit slower than Bruce on that bike (and Bruce is fast) while I was on a Ninja250. So I would not call that a GP bike. The KTM 300 was a clerical error (there were many that weekend). That was a Ninja300.
If the grid marshal is doing his/her job, obviously illegal bikes should not make it to the grid.
As for the Metrakit, it doesn't qualify for the class because single cylinders must be 4 stroke. The Metrakit is a 2 stroke liquid cooled bike. 2 strokes can only be air cooled in UL class.
To the comment about not needing another bike coming in and outclassing the existing bike, then explain to me what the 1100 Ducatis are allowed in the LW class while the SV was still competitive. Heck, the Ninja 250 is 14 years OLDER than the SV! Why is CCS protecting one group of bikes yet screwing another over by letting in a bike that outclasses the SV in HP, which is what most are complaining about with the R3 and 390. Seems most are ignoring the fact that there is more to racing a motorcycle than HP.
Sorry for being a pain in the ass and harping on this.
The only real way to get rid of cheater bikes is to get rid of cc based requirements and just list the bikes that are allowed. The Ducati is a cheater bike that snuck into lightweight because CCS had a different air cooled twin in mind for the air cooled cc limit. Probably a BMW or a Buell.
Quote from: Zaph on September 09, 2015, 04:47:46 PM
The only real way to get rid of cheater bikes is to get rid of cc based requirements and just list the bikes that are allowed. The Ducati is a cheater bike that snuck into lightweight because CCS had a different air cooled twin in mind for the air cooled cc limit. Probably a BMW or a Buell.
This is why.
LW classes should've had outright limits like 4T 450cc 4-cyl, 4T 700cc 2 cyl, 4T singles no limit or something close, no exceptions for air-cooling, number of valves or pushrods. Instead the rules were changed to allow Buells.
And of course some people always want to mention how the SV took the top spot from the Hawk. Well the rules weren't changed specifically to allow the SV. It fit within the existing (and pretty standard across orgs at the time) rules, too bad for the Hawk not having 4 valves per cylinder.
Quote from: Zaph on September 09, 2015, 04:47:46 PM
The only real way to get rid of cheater bikes is to get rid of cc based requirements and just list the bikes that are allowed. The Ducati is a cheater bike that snuck into lightweight because CCS had a different air cooled twin in mind for the air cooled cc limit. Probably a BMW or a Buell.
Yes, it was put in for the Buell, but CCS could have easily put in "non desmodromic" valves. Or, add that it was restricted to push rod air cooled engines. Like they have in almost every other class. Yet they didn't and won't. Even after numerous requests.
Quote from: SVbadguy on September 09, 2015, 06:23:55 PM
Instead the rules were changed to allow Buells.
Actually, there is a really, really long history of rules that "favor" larger displacements for H-D or other push-rod engines. We're talking 50's flat track stuff, decades later the internal weight of twins being allowed more displacement (Ducati 851's vs 750/4's, aren't the Ducati's nearly 1200cc's now with the 4's at 1000?).
Anyway, what is the final result of the rules for 2016 (now at the end of the year). Thinking about playing with an R3, Ninja 300, or (probably unlikely) a KTM390. Would really like to race one of those current machines at Blackhawk at the last event to see how the function now to help me make a decision for 2017. Will probably buy new for 2017 for two years of contingency.
The ninja 300 will give you more options with running ULTB,GTUL,500 SS and Moto3,all competetively. The R3 can only run 500SS and moto3 competetively,and run in whatever SV does, LWSS LWGP ULSB etc as bump up classes. A fast guy could have a good run with an R3 on a smaller track against slower SVs,so I wouldnt count out the R3 just yet .Im pondering an R3 winter build myself.......
Maybe CCS will figure out what most already have and realize the R3 and RC390 are not the Ninja 300 killer. Whoever is the better rider is going to win with these bikes.
Stop protecting the stupid 250 and let the others in.
Jeff, it sounds like you want to split up expert and amateur as well as the ninja 250/300 from the R3/390 for the ULTB and GTUL in the name of a place to run your R3. The R3 already has two classes it's REALLY competitive in (Moto 3 and 500SS) and after riding both a R3 and 300 I can say the R3 definitely has an advantage over the little ninja ceteris paribus. Furthermore, splitting up the ULTB, 500SS, Moto 3, etc classes for expert and amateur actually hurts the riders because those classes are already difficult to get the grids big enough for contingency to pay out. As far as needing a GT race for you R3 (running with the GTUL racers but scored differently) that can EASILY be achieved by signing up for GTL and gridding behind the GTUL wave (in the very back of the grid.) Problem solved! Unless of course you really are just looking to bifurcate the classes enough that everyone is a winner and gets a trophy... Additionally, if you're not just looking for a trophy, but rather some good fun racing then run up a class in LWSS. I have ran LWSS on my 300 several times and was able to find the podium on every occasion. The notion that by making these extra little bike classes and getting rid of heavyweight will put more people on the grid is just plain not true, a lot of the guys on 600s travel to every round sign up for all the MW and HW races etc. the numbers for the little bikes just don't justify more classes at this point. CCS is a for profit organization and the HW classes have proven to be a money maker. Yes the GSXR 750 is the only bike that falls into the class limits for the HW but so is the CBR500 for 500SS and a quick look at the results shows neither of those bikes consistently winning either class, its usually a lower spec bike "racing up" a class.
Just my $0.02
Long winded response follows.
Quote from: dmj_88 on September 20, 2016, 10:03:28 AMJeff, it sounds like you want to split up expert and amateur as well as the ninja 250/300 from the R3/390 for the ULTB and GTUL in the name of a place to run your R3. The R3 already has two classes it's REALLY competitive in (Moto 3 and 500SS) and after riding both a R3 and 300 I can say the R3 definitely has an advantage over the little ninja ceteris paribus. Furthermore, splitting up the ULTB, 500SS, Moto 3, etc classes for expert and amateur actually hurts the riders because those classes are already difficult to get the grids big enough for contingency to pay out.
Actually, I just want the Ninja 250s, Honda single cylinder 250/300s to have their own class (run at same time as the ULW bikes to save time) because they really are at a huge disadvantage from the 300 Ninja, R3, and RC390. The Ninja 300 is at a negligible disadvantage from the latter two bikes. In fact, the Ninja 300 is at no more a disadvantage than say a 2016 CBR 600 to a 2016 ZX6R. And a much smaller disadvantage than a 2016 ZX10R to a 2016 CBR1000. The RC has a bit more HP and better torque.
The reason I was advocating for separating expert and amateur ULW scoring is because that is a major complaint I have heard from amateur racers in the ULW class. I don't really care. Even if I was an amateur it wouldn't matter to me. Like you said, bigger grids for contingency.Quote from: dmj_88 on September 20, 2016, 10:03:28 AM As far as needing a GT race for you R3 (running with the GTUL racers but scored differently) that can EASILY be achieved by signing up for GTL and gridding behind the GTUL wave (in the very back of the grid.) Problem solved! Unless of course you really are just looking to bifurcate the classes enough that everyone is a winner and gets a trophy... Additionally, if you're not just looking for a trophy, but rather some good fun racing then run up a class in LWSS. I have ran LWSS on my 300 several times and was able to find the podium on every occasion.
I did grid up at the back of the grid this last time for the GTL/GTUL race. But, as you say, that takes me out of any contingency from Yamaha. I am now at the back of the grid, yet being scored with the LWs. I can tell you the only passing I was doing against the Ninjas was either through drafting or under braking into corners. There was little, to any HP difference.
I also had been planning on signing up for the LWSS races but, at least in the Mid West, those were run at the same time as either the Moto 3 or 500ss race. I can't remember which now.Quote from: dmj_88 on September 20, 2016, 10:03:28 AMThe notion that by making these extra little bike classes and getting rid of heavyweight will put more people on the grid is just plain not true, a lot of the guys on 600s travel to every round sign up for all the MW and HW races etc. the numbers for the little bikes just don't justify more classes at this point. CCS is a for profit organization and the HW classes have proven to be a money maker. Yes the GSXR 750 is the only bike that falls into the class limits for the HW but so is the CBR500 for 500SS and a quick look at the results shows neither of those bikes consistently winning either class, it's usually a lower spec bike "racing up" a class. Just my $0.02
As I stated above, the logic for keeping the R3 and RC390 out of ULW somehow isn't applied to the Kawi 636 though. It makes more HP than the other 600s but is allowed in. Why? By the logic being applied to the R3 and RC390 CCS should never have allowed the 636 in. Heck, the new ZX10R is leaps and bounds better in HP, suspension, and brakes then the CBR1000 yet the ZX is allowed to race in the unlimited class. Based on the R3/RC390 logic since there are still people racing CBR1000s the new ZX shouldn't be allowed because it is so much better. But because the ZX happens to be the same displacement it is allowed.
What is going to happen to the new R6 if it is, as rumored, turns out to be a triple? What happens if it is 685cc? Is CCS not going to allow it in the MW class because it is 5cc over the current limit? I highly doubt that.
Or, what happens when/if Kawasaki comes out with a new 300 Ninja that has more HP and better suspension/brakes but is still 300cc? Is that not going to be allowed in ULW because it is marginally better than the older Ninja 300?
Progress marches on. Rules need to be changed to adapt to the change manufactures are making to their bikes so they fit into the class they are marketed at. This is why the HP2 isn't allowed in LW. It isn't marketed as a LW bike even though it fits the rule set for that class. At least that is the argument I have heard Eric Kelcher make.
Also, if we are trying to keep things safe by running similar bikes in a group, why put a 40HP bike in with bikes pushing 80+HP? Those are truly fun starts and races (sarcasm).
The 500ss races were started, at least from what I understand, because Honda was paying for the class. Like you said, CCS is a for profit organization. So the 500ss class sticks around as long as Honda is paying. I would say get rid of the 500ss race and just put the R3 and RC390 where they fit in best, the ULW class.
Of course, now the 500ss class is happening in Florida. Hmmm, wonder why. Is it to keep the R3 and RC390 out of the ULW class in order to protect the very solid group of 250 spec riders down in that one specific region? Just give the 250 riders their own class already and change the rules to put the R3, RC390, and Ninja 300 together.
As for the HW class, I still suggest its removal. Double entry fees for the MW classes and double the laps too. Actually give them a good race where everything isn't completely dependent upon a good start. Let them do 14-16 laps (8 laps at someplace like Road America) instead of the crappy 7-8 (at BFR) they get now. This would also save a bunch of time over the day from not having to start and finish an additional 3 races.
Getting rid of those 4 classes may actually give other groups a chance at more laps too. Or, if there are red flags, the rest of us don't get screwed by having our races reduced to only 3 or 4 laps. Especially since the MWs are traditionally responsible for most of the red flags during a race weekend. Nothing like paying for an 8 lap race and only getting 4 laps because the MWs keep crashing and causing red flags and so many races are crammed into one weekend.
Sorry for the rant, but I am tired of the hypocrisy I see in the ULW rules as compared to the rest of the rule book.
Interesting discussion, filled with different people and different goals.
At first I wanted ULTB to be split up into expert and amateur. As a yellow plate myself, I'm getting my ass kicked in that grid. But I recognize that there's just not enough riders to split them up. At Road America last time, there were only a few yellow plates and the grid was full of white plates. This is my impression of a rabbit being chased by a pack of wolves, hahah.
(https://www.ccsforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.zaphaudio.com%2Ftemp%2FWolves_Chasing_Rabbit.jpg&hash=bd1cb7d6df7002a5886205f60b5a306f172a5bff)
It's kind of funny, people would expect ULTB to be filled with newbie racers on a budget, but it's the complete opposite. My pace on a middleweight would allow me to finish in the upper third of amateur MWSS. But in ULTB I'm fighting with the slowest 3 guys on the grid to stay out of last place. Newbies who want to race should probably get on a 600 and get in amateur MWSS with the rest of the slow people.
I'm committed to ULTB though, enough that I sold my 675R to focus more on my 300. I accept the challenge of being mixed in with the experts for now. All I would like to see is the grid get larger so I have more people to play with.
Gee, Zaph, thanks for the great shot of me ahead of Drew. Even if it only lasted for about a second and a half after this shot was taken......
Doc
By the way, I would be very happy with the class configuration if the R3 and RC390 were just allowed in GTUL.
It was such great fun last time in the GTUL race being in a train of evenly matched bikes down the front straight of BFR. Wish my GoPro hasn't stopped recording after the second lap.
I do understand that the MW is the cash cow of most race orgs. I didn't go back and read the rest of this thread but I am guessing I had my ultimate wish list of ULSS, ULSB, and, ULGP posted somewhere.
World Supersport 300
http://www.bikesportnews.com/news/news-detail/dorna-announced-new-world-supersport-300-class-for-2017
Quote from: Super Dave on September 27, 2016, 05:03:28 PM
World Supersport 300
http://www.bikesportnews.com/news/news-detail/dorna-announced-new-world-supersport-300-class-for-2017 (http://www.bikesportnews.com/news/news-detail/dorna-announced-new-world-supersport-300-class-for-2017)
I love the rules of this class, particularly the spending limits and list of accepted bikes, and some effort put in to making differing bikes perform similarly on track. CCS could learn a few things about how to set up a race class. CCS Ultralight classes are pretty much a mess right now, some bikes allowed here, some allowed there and no spending limits, in a class that should DEFINITELY have spending limits.
This list of accepted bikes is great because then you don't have unexpected rare bikes show up that can mop the floor. Guys on SV650's know what I'm talking about. Sure, you get one guy who will be crying that he can't race his rare bike that doesn't fit in a class, but screw that guy. Everyone else benefits.
Spending limits are needed in CCS to stop racing from being a bottomless pit of money that only shop owners can afford. ESPECIALLY supersport.
C'mon CCS, get it together. Take a look at World Supersport 300 to see how an ultralight race class should be done.
Quote from: Zaph on September 29, 2016, 02:08:59 PM
I love the rules of this class, particularly the spending limits and list of accepted bikes, and some effort put in to making differing bikes perform similarly on track. CCS could learn a few things about how to set up a race class. CCS Ultralight classes are pretty much a mess right now, some bikes allowed here, some allowed there and no spending limits, in a class that should DEFINITELY have spending limits.
This list of accepted bikes is great because then you don't have unexpected rare bikes show up that can mop the floor. Guys on SV650's know what I'm talking about. Sure, you get one guy who will be crying that he can't race his rare bike that doesn't fit in a class, but screw that guy. Everyone else benefits.
Spending limits are needed in CCS to stop racing from being a bottomless pit of money that only shop owners can afford. ESPECIALLY supersport.
C'mon CCS, get it together. Take a look at World Supersport 300 to see how an ultralight race class should be done.
If you like your rules written this way your racing with the wrong Org. this is WERA style shit right here. And I get why CCS Writes their rules the way they do, to separate them from the other guys.
Quote from: Zaph on September 29, 2016, 02:08:59 PM
I love the rules of this class, particularly the spending limits and list of accepted bikes, and some effort put in to making differing bikes perform similarly on track. CCS could learn a few things about how to set up a race class. CCS Ultralight classes are pretty much a mess right now, some bikes allowed here, some allowed there and no spending limits, in a class that should DEFINITELY have spending limits.
This list of accepted bikes is great because then you don't have unexpected rare bikes show up that can mop the floor. Guys on SV650's know what I'm talking about. Sure, you get one guy who will be crying that he can't race his rare bike that doesn't fit in a class, but screw that guy. Everyone else benefits.
Spending limits are needed in CCS to stop racing from being a bottomless pit of money that only shop owners can afford. ESPECIALLY supersport.
Quote from: Zaph on September 29, 2016, 02:08:59 PM
C'mon CCS, get it together. Take a look at World Supersport 300 to see how an ultralight race class should be done.
Well, WSS300 will be part of the FIM WSB program. The expectation should be that they will be satelite teams to WSS and WSB teams, feeders...just like Moto3 to Moto2 to MotoGP. So, while there are "spending limits", there is no time limit. Imagine when you've got your experienced engineers working on a simple bike.
Similarly, if your business is race bikes, and your pre-occupation is race bikes, the expectation that someone's machines will be beyond good is to be expected.
Once, "a couple years ago" :D, my crew (one guy) and I were lamenting a bit about the factory Honda team and the stuff they had and how good their bike was. Well, my friend and sponsor representative kind of put into perspective. "How often are you taking your forks apart?" It wasn't very often, but he reminded me that they were doing that after every event. It's not a lot of money to actually go and DO things, maybe a little oil here and there, but the constant state of maintenance and minor improvement can be significant. So, it was only motivation that was necessarily stopping me from being more preoccupied with my AMA program.
And, sometimes, the preoccupied racer ends up a mechanic. Imagine that?
Racing is always a bottomless pit. I suppose pit implies a bottom, but, really, racing is always about infinity. How soon can you get the new bike, how much time can you put into development, how many new stealth coatings can you pioneer, what new technology can you work into your program, health, sleep, transportation, aerodynamics.
In the end, you show up with the best bike you can build. And then you've still got to have the skill to ride it. And even ride it well. Maybe "well-er" than your friends and competitors. :)
I don't know how one would necessarily enforce a price cap. Well, unless the bikes are sealed, stored, and transported. So, now the price went up, and the results will most likely be the same. Maybe a little closer, but maybe not.
And world championship program that is established now produces more parts. Some of those parts will be manufacturer based products even that don't have any visual cue that they are any different from stock parts. Of course, these parts WILL make it into club racing. HRC black boxes, how about "B kit" cams", etc.
I do think that the establishment of a 300 WSS program will put most of the manufacturers in some competition with each other. But, of course, some amount of stagnation occurs too as manufacturers limit their changes so that it drives riders/racers into buying every couple years for the next reduction in 1.5 pounds, gain in .5HP, BNG, etc.
Quote from: bruce71198 on September 29, 2016, 04:57:10 PM
If you like your rules written this way your racing with the wrong Org. this is WERA style shit right here. And I get why CCS Writes their rules the way they do, to separate them from the other guys.
Why all the hate towards that style of rules? It is just a different take. I like that style of rule writing. Pretty simple. If it isn't listed, you can't do it. No better or worse.
Quote from: bruce71198 on September 29, 2016, 04:57:10 PM
If you like your rules written this way your racing with the wrong Org. this is WERA style shit right here. And I get why CCS Writes their rules the way they do, to separate them from the other guys.
The only reason I race CCS is because WERA doesn't come to my favorite local tracks. The WERA rule set is vastly superior, IMHO. WERA is more of a riders org than a builders org. I prefer racing over wrenching, but I understand a few others like the opposite.
Quote from: Zaph on September 30, 2016, 12:10:19 PM
The only reason I race CCS is because WERA doesn't come to my favorite local tracks. The WERA rule set is vastly superior, IMHO. WERA is more of a riders org than a builders org. I prefer racing over wrenching, but I understand a few others like the opposite.
I felt the same way at first and thats how I got to CCS. I dont see anything wrong with CCS structure per se, I just want the R3 put in ULTB!!!! :biggrin:
Don't get me wrong, I'm not hatin on either org or the rules structure. I do think the ultralight classes should be SS rules and allow more manufacturers in.
I like the way World Superbike has it set up..
Quote from: bruce71198 on October 01, 2016, 11:56:01 AM
Don't get me wrong, I'm not hatin on either org or the rules structure. I do think the ultralight classes should be SS rules and allow more manufacturers in.
I like the way World Superbike has it set up..
One thing CCS does need to do though is keep the classes dubbed UL for actual UL bikes,i.e. the 250/300's etc. It created alot of confusion for guys that added a 300 to the stable mid-season because of ULTB and ULSB. For example:The guys wouldnt race 500 SS and were trying to race in UL superbike instead because of UL in the class name.Granted they should have read the rulebook and paid attention since they were NOT newbies,and should have known where to go,but the UL throws everybody off. And lastly.....let the R3 in ULTB :spank: I really want one :biggrin:
Ok, so, as someone that doesn't have much understanding about how things are on the ground...
How bad is the difference between a Ninja 250 and a Ninja 300 on a race track? Hoping for data from someone that has raced them both...
Come to the Jennings Endurance weekend Nov 19th and see for yourself. It was nice to see last year how the 390 cup bikes did vs the 300's vs the 250's with good riders on each machine. They finished in that order. Very clear difference between the three.
Quote from: vance on October 24, 2016, 10:32:10 AM
Come to the Jennings Endurance weekend Nov 19th and see for yourself.
Sounds nice! But the 2000 miles of travel would eat into my budget for getting anything. Then there's that pesky work thing too.
Besides when the kids come out and play,the ex300 has been the dominant bike here,and then the built 250s,then whatever human/adult is on the 390.But it seems its down to the rider in each case. So far nobody is really hitting the same Summit times as Mazz on his 250,regardless of which bike out of the 3.My disclaimer: I only remember seeing 1 or 2 adults on a 390 :biggrin:
The R3 times this weekend at Barber for the top 3 where in the 1:39's about 2 seconds faster than the 390 in MotoAmerica. Keep in mind the MotoAmerica cup bikes have the throttle limited to 80 percent.
Quote from: bruce71198 on October 24, 2016, 03:38:49 PM
The R3 times this weekend at Barber for the top 3 where in the 1:39's about 2 seconds faster than the 390 in MotoAmerica. Keep in mind the MotoAmerica cup bikes have the throttle limited to 80 percent.
Thanks, Bruce. Quite interesting.
Quote from: Super Dave on October 23, 2016, 12:49:23 PM
Ok, so, as someone that doesn't have much understanding about how things are on the ground...
How bad is the difference between a Ninja 250 and a Ninja 300 on a race track? Hoping for data from someone that has raced them both...
At Road America I've had a couple 250's walk away from me on the straights when I was on my well tuned 300 running MR12. All that while some other 250's I left in the dust like they were scooters.
With CCS, it's less about what bike you choose, and more about how willing you are to open up the engine and do stuff to it.
I wish we had this up in the midwest: http://specclassracing.com/
Quote from: Zaph on October 25, 2016, 07:29:49 PM
With CCS, it's less about what bike you choose, and more about how willing you are to open up the engine and do stuff to it.
Well, a 250 can be opened up. A 300 can be opened up. Even a production bike can be developed within WERA production rules.
I understand the CCS rules as I've been around "a while". Hoping to hear some more objective data.
Zaph, if you're getting beat by Ninja 250's that are opened up, why not buy one? Seem to be quite a few out there being sold off right now like a fire sale because of the impression that the other opportunities offer something...
Mostly because I hate carburetors. If I get some motivation this winter I might drop the engine in my 300 and send it off for a build. That and a little weight loss (both the bike and me) would make me a little more competitive next year. And some more seat time, this was my first year on the 300.
Quote from: Zaph on October 26, 2016, 08:00:59 AM
Mostly because I hate carburetors. If I get some motivation this winter I might drop the engine in my 300 and send it off for a build. That and a little weight loss (both the bike and me) would make me a little more competitive next year. And some more seat time, this was my first year on the 300.
:)
I like carbs. Jets don't need user updates or batteries to charge.
Weight...the on going challenge for everyone. Even a 115 pounder LOL!
Never been on a 300/250 production race bike. But I did race a TZ250, a couple RS125's, and an MZ Scorpion (and a bunch of other stuff). I think the Scorpion made more power than even the KTM (42HP?) as it should with 660cc's, but it weighed more than my SV1000 race bike. Contingency made it attractive.
Quote from: Super Dave on October 25, 2016, 08:21:10 PM
Zaph, if you're getting beat by Ninja 250's that are opened up, why not buy one? Seem to be quite a few out there being sold off right now like a fire sale because of the impression that the other opportunities offer something...
What Zaph is referring to is that some of these "250s" exceed the displacement limits of the class. Of course, if you protest them you are then called out as a douche bag for being butt hurt you didn't win. Yet the person(s) who is(are) cheating isn't called a douche.
Nate Minster can pass me on my R3 down the front straight with his RC390 pretty easily. He doesn't fly by me though. He should pass me too because he weighs 100 lbs less than me. There is no way a built 250 though, with a person of similar weight, should fly by me like they are on a SV650. Yes, they should pass me, but not like I am standing still.
I haven't had the chance to protest one of these bikes though. If/when I do, I will.
Quote from: Capitalview on October 26, 2016, 06:59:14 PMYet the person(s) who is(are) cheating isn't called a douche.
Yeah, but that's because there are a lot of douches in racing. Same goes for the rest of the people around us too...
Tech should have a "whistler" or something a long that line that can measure displacement pretty easy. Should only require airbox removal to get to the plugs. This was tech stuff from the 90's.
Yeah we have known cheaters. But I'm pretty sure we also have some guys with 250's that are legal in ULTB but still making more hp than 300's. The thing is that ULTB is so damn open the only basic rule is CC limits. So you got guys with 250 cc's but high comp pistions, cams, ported and polished heads, low friction bearings, and a whole bunch of other stuff making mega hp.
There are big bore kits, but I suspect most cheating happens in 500SS when people bring in their machines that are only legal for ULTB GP and GT classes.
Personally, I wish ULTB at least had supersport rules or better yet full spec racing rules like that series I linked in Florida. But until then, I will likely give up 500SS so I can make my bike more competitive in ULTB, GTUL and Moto3. My bike is still sucking air through the garbage OEM airbox. Just pod filters alone are good for 3 hp.
Quote from: Zaph on October 27, 2016, 11:35:24 AMMy bike is still sucking air through the garbage OEM airbox. Just pod filters alone are good for 3 hp.
Seriously? That sounds like stuff from 1982 on a 1000. I know that when Bimota used the FZR1000 engine in the Dieci, they couldn't get the same HP as the FZR1000 in the FZR1000 chassis; because even by the early 90's the damn OEM airboxes were so good, the Bimota airbox and frame made less power.
But...a 10% gain on hp from pods?!
Not surprising since OEMs are running bikes really lean now to pass emissions.
By the way, I have found most people who race to be really nice people. By far the nice outweigh the douches.
Is there such thing as a nice douche?
Quote from: bruce71198 on October 27, 2016, 03:11:24 PM
Is there such thing as a nice douche?
Only in ULTB :kicknuts: ...........JK :biggrin: .
Quote from: bruce71198 on October 27, 2016, 03:11:24 PM
Is there such thing as a nice douche?
Kind of depends upon the applicator? :D
Quote from: Capitalview on October 27, 2016, 03:01:02 PM
Not surprising since OEMs are running bikes really lean now to pass emissions.
Catalysts, ignition mapping, faster systems. I don't think they run much leaner, but they are more accurate with FI over carbs. As things start to run leaner and leaner, there are other products that are produced which are emissions illegal. Not to mention heat, damage, etc.
This is the most active post on the CCS forum in five years. :biggrin:
Quote from: Super Dave on October 27, 2016, 06:29:22 PM
This is the most active post on the CCS forum in five years. :biggrin:
Well.....its no "Carillo Rod" thread,but it'll do :biggrin:
If i'm not running an air box where should I mount the snorkel?
Quote from: bruce71198 on October 28, 2016, 10:02:53 AM
If i'm not running an air box where should I mount the snorkel?
The first step to recovery is recognizing admitting that you have a problem with a snorkel.
:ahhh:
Quote from: bruce71198 on October 28, 2016, 10:02:53 AM
If i'm not running an air box where should I mount the snorkel?
On your face?
(https://www.ccsforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsidelineamusements.com%2Fqbert%2Fimages%2Fq-bert.png&hash=920d69c3a75b2e2f39a2032434c693344a4b6d9a)
If you guys are on Facebook there's a new group called CCS Ultralight Racing, FYI
Quote from: bruce71198 on October 29, 2016, 10:05:39 AM
If you guys are on Facebook there's a new group called CCS Ultralight Racing, FYI
Yeah,but its this place that needs some action!! :biggrin:
Is it Spec Class Racing (https://www.facebook.com/specclassracing)? That's all I can find. Using my wife's Facebook login because I refuse to get on it, lol.
The original post from 2012 mentions a gentleman's agreement. There sure as hell isn't one of those these days. The current CCS rule set is so far away from spec class racing that it's not funny.
If I had my way, the CCS would only have 2 rules: Your bike must make no more than a maximum hp number and weigh no less than a minimum weight. That's it. Dynos and scales brought to every race day. If we did that, everyone could compete. R3's, RC390's, N300's and even some CBR250's could be souped up to run. Every machine could be configured to fit in the class just right. None of us would need to blow money on MR12, except maybe the guys running a CBR250. It would become a rider's race instead of a builder's race and it would reel in out of control racing costs. :thumb: Bruce I'm thinking you wouldn't be a fan of that with your 50 hp 250, lol.
Dont forget to add the rule that if the rider is over 200lbs. then he/she is allowed to run an R3 :whine: :biggrin:
Quote from: Zaph on October 29, 2016, 11:02:23 AM
Is it Spec Class Racing (https://www.facebook.com/specclassracing)? That's all I can find. Using my wife's Facebook login because I refuse to get on it, lol.
The original post from 2012 mentions a gentleman's agreement. There sure as hell isn't one of those these days. The current CCS rule set is so far away from spec class racing that it's not funny.
If I had my way, the CCS would only have 2 rules: Your bike must make no more than a maximum hp number and weigh no less than a minimum weight. That's it. Dynos and scales brought to every race day. If we did that, everyone could compete. R3's, RC390's, N300's and even some CBR250's could be souped up to run. Every machine could be configured to fit in the class just right. None of us would need to blow money on MR12, except maybe the guys running a CBR250. It would become a rider's race instead of a builder's race and it would reel in out of control racing costs. :thumb: Bruce I'm thinking you wouldn't be a fan of that with your 50 hp 250, lol.
Dyno controlled classes have 2 big problems.
With FI systems you can load a temporary map, or toggle to different maps Ie shut off ignition click a sequence in dash etc and default map is now active; difficult to enforce.
Dyno costs after the intial investment there is transportation and operator costs. Figure close to $1000 per entry to cover costs. That is one big reason Dyno controlled races went away in the ASRA series when Dyno sponsor went away.
Add in different power delivery and 40 hp can be less than 30 hp ?!??
Bike that makes sharp power curve that raises from 20 to 40 from 8000-9000 rpm then redlines at 10,000 has less useable power than a bike that makes 30 hp from 6000-10,000 rpm. Straight line speed vs acceleration balancing act.
Party Pooper!! :biggrin:
Quote from: britx303 on October 29, 2016, 11:09:58 AM
Dont forget to add the rule that if the rider is over 200lbs. then he/she is allowed to run an R3 :whine: :biggrin:
Hell yeah, us clydesdales need special considerations. But seriously, nah and then I would have all the encouragement I need to drop 20 lbs. :thumb:
Quote from: Eric Kelcher on October 29, 2016, 11:40:25 AM
Dyno controlled classes have 2 big problems.
With FI systems you can load a temporary map, or toggle to different maps Ie shut off ignition click a sequence in dash etc and default map is now active; difficult to enforce.
Dyno costs after the intial investment there is transportation and operator costs. Figure close to $1000 per entry to cover costs. That is one big reason Dyno controlled races went away in the ASRA series when Dyno sponsor went away.
Add in different power delivery and 40 hp can be less than 30 hp ?!??
Bike that makes sharp power curve that raises from 20 to 40 from 8000-9000 rpm then redlines at 10,000 has less useable power than a bike that makes 30 hp from 6000-10,000 rpm. Straight line speed vs acceleration balancing act.
It's human nature to resist change but bettering ourselves or our organization isn't going to happen without it. Right now ultralight in CCS is a mess. It has the potential to be the most popular class ever, even more so than 600 supersport, but that isn't going to happen until it's made easy and fair for multiple different bikes to compete, and we reel in the outrageous costs of racing caused by the current open rule set that doesn't limit what people can do. Sure, keep one class around for the builders to show what they can do. Then we can see a few 50 hp ninja 250's race. (and need an immediate engine rebuild after) But most people want to see what the riders can do when all the bikes are close in performance.
Look at the rules page of Spec Class Racing. http://specclassracing.com/bike-spec/ (http://specclassracing.com/bike-spec/) Notice how they list what you CAN do, not just what you can't do. I'm not affiliated with these guys, I just like they way they do things. If they were up here in the midwest, I'd be all over it and ultralight racing would explode in popularity.
Immediate post race scrutineering for winners can include a check for anyone who has 2 wires coming out of the map switch port on their fuel controller. If you want to be thorough, also check the diagnostics plug and wire loom for extra wires, since many bikes, even the ninja 300 can switch 2 maps internally in their own ECU.
The difficulties of getting a dyno to the races are understandable. However, many shops would be willing to offer certification services. In fact they would love it as it would bring them lots of extra tuning business. The only limitation has to be that race shops can not certify the bikes of riders they sponsor. That would help rule out obvious favoritism. Make up a standard form with a return envelope, and it can be signed by the tuner, dyno chart included and sent directly back to CCS without touching the rider's hands. Want to really cut down on cheating? Have the certifying tuner send the final map to CCS, which can be compared to what the bike is running via file checksum.
Sure, the differing shapes of hp curves would favor torque heavy bikes. But it would still be pretty close, and it's still the best hope of bringing all these ultralights together.
I'm not trying to tell the CCS how to do things, just offering up some ideas that I think could benefit many racers and make things more fun. Thanks for reading.
Quote from: Zaph on October 29, 2016, 11:02:23 AM
Bruce I'm thinking you wouldn't be a fan of that with your 50 hp 250, lol.
Actually I would be a big fan of a spec class! I was a proponent of it when CCS first introduced it and was hugely disappointed when they came out with it as a Thunderbike class! Moto America proved it's viability with the KTM390 cup program, my son ran the first 2 seasons and enjoyed it immensely. I know and have raced with the Spec Class Racing guys down in Florida on many occasions and their program is highly functional with the "gentlemen's agreement".
When Jody started racing, the 250 class had just been introduced, he and I both had box stock bikes as we ran WERA ESS as well as CCS. To put things into perspective He ran 1:21-22 on his ninja 250, I think my best on a stocker was in the upper 22 range, and my suspension has improved in the last couple seasons so i'm sure I could improve on that, on his KTM390 he ran consistant 21's and then 20's when he tested suspension for KTM. He and I didn't lose many races anywhere we went unless it was to each other. When he stopped racing his 250 I was left with not much competition so I started messing with my engine, I found it easy to make more power and am, at this point, just out having fun. If it came down to it I would go back to stock and still be winning races. As a matter of fact I will build a class legal bike for next season and I believe the results will be the same. Anyway, back to perspective, my "built bike" (which consequently has all Kawasaki parts in it aside from the head gasket and cylinders) I turned a low 19 on with Drew hot on my tail on his 300 which I know for a fact is a SS build. Theres also another 50HP 300 out there with stock bore and stroke.
Quote from: Zaph on October 29, 2016, 02:51:40 PM
Hell yeah, us clydesdales need special considerations. But seriously, nah and then I would have all the encouragement I need to drop 20 lbs. :thumb:
It's human nature to resist change but bettering ourselves or our organization isn't going to happen without it. Right now ultralight in CCS is a mess. It has the potential to be the most popular class ever, even more so than 600 supersport, but that isn't going to happen until it's made easy and fair for multiple different bikes to compete, and we reel in the outrageous costs of racing caused by the current open rule set that doesn't limit what people can do. Sure, keep one class around for the builders to show what they can do. Then we can see a few 50 hp ninja 250's race. (and need an immediate engine rebuild after) But most people want to see what the riders can do when all the bikes are close in performance.
Look at the rules page of Spec Class Racing. http://specclassracing.com/bike-spec/ (http://specclassracing.com/bike-spec/) Notice how they list what you CAN do, not just what you can't do. I'm not affiliated with these guys, I just like they way they do things. If they were up here in the midwest, I'd be all over it and ultralight racing would explode in popularity.
Immediate post race scrutineering for winners can include a check for anyone who has 2 wires coming out of the map switch port on their fuel controller. If you want to be thorough, also check the diagnostics plug and wire loom for extra wires, since many bikes, even the ninja 300 can switch 2 maps internally in their own ECU.
The difficulties of getting a dyno to the races are understandable. However, many shops would be willing to offer certification services. In fact they would love it as it would bring them lots of extra tuning business. The only limitation has to be that race shops can not certify the bikes of riders they sponsor. That would help rule out obvious favoritism. Make up a standard form with a return envelope, and it can be signed by the tuner, dyno chart included and sent directly back to CCS without touching the rider's hands. Want to really cut down on cheating? Have the certifying tuner send the final map to CCS, which can be compared to what the bike is running via file checksum.
Sure, the differing shapes of hp curves would favor torque heavy bikes. But it would still be pretty close, and it's still the best hope of bringing all these ultralights together.
I'm not trying to tell the CCS how to do things, just offering up some ideas that I think could benefit many racers and make things more fun. Thanks for reading.
I typed a LONG response to the wishful thinking in this post. Instead I'll
attempt to be concise.
No dynos as a regulatory measure, it doesn't work, and the ccs staff is already stretched too thin to check fuel maps, wires, ECUs, etc. This is club racing, keep that in perspective.
The little bike class is still the cheapest to run (I've run them all) I have a supersport Ninja 300 that has proven to be EXTREMELY cheap to build and operate. Do not equate a level of modification with expense. Just because someone can build a powerful ninja "250" does not mean they put a lot of money into it, or require you to either. Rather a skilled mechanic spent their time using inexpensive (OEM) parts with talent and knowledge to get a working package after a lot of trial and error.
Class structure actually works pretty well, but people like to complain...
The way I see it:
Minimal modifications that all bikes can play = 500SS
Lots of modifications that all bikes can play = moto3
ULTB and ULGT require no changes. It allows someone to build a 300 to "race up" in Moto3 or leave it supersport spec and improve as a rider chasing down the faster bikes. The ninja 300 is by far the most popular "little bike" and has proven to be exceedingly reliable. I think the grids reflect that you can bring out a bike with any level of modification with a rider of any talent level and generally have someone to race with. It might not be for the win but there is usually a good race for everyone in the field. Additionally, I only know of 4 bikes taking advantage of Thunderbike rules (building anything more than Supersport) and most of them don't even race with CCS. The majority of the N250s and 300s on the grid meet SS spec.
Lastly, If you think the people at the pointy end of the class are there because they are on "built" bikes I would wager that those same riders on stock bikes with only race rubber/plastics would still be fighting for the win. They are not winning because of what bike they are on, they are winning because they are faster riders.
Quote from: Zaph on October 29, 2016, 11:02:23 AM
If I had my way, the CCS would only have 2 rules: Your bike must make no more than a maximum hp number and weigh no less than a minimum weight. That's it. Dynos and scales brought to every race day. If we did that, everyone could compete. R3's, RC390's, N300's and even some CBR250's could be souped up to run. Every machine could be configured to fit in the class just right. None of us would need to blow money on MR12, except maybe the guys running a CBR250. It would become a rider's race instead of a builder's race and it would reel in out of control racing costs. :thumb: Bruce I'm thinking you wouldn't be a fan of that with your 50 hp 250, lol.
Cost of dyno, cost of transportation. Sure, we can talk about sponsors willing to do that because one can claim they'd make so much money sponsoring the series, but it hasn't worked in the past.
And then, you'd need to use that dyno when you tuned your bike.
And then you'd have to have tech inspectors that were technical enough to know that some ECM's allow someone to turn the kill switch off twice to use the "dyno map"...because that stuff already existed years and years ago.
HP to weigh ratio racing is available, but it does involve four wheels. Still expensive.
Quote from: bruce71198 on October 29, 2016, 05:56:20 PM
Actually I would be a big fan of a spec class! I was a proponent of it when CCS first introduced it and was hugely disappointed when they came out with it as a Thunderbike class! Moto America proved it's viability with the KTM390 cup program, my son ran the first 2 seasons and enjoyed it immensely. I know and have raced with the Spec Class Racing guys down in Florida on many occasions and their program is highly functional with the "gentlemen's agreement".
When Jody started racing, the 250 class had just been introduced, he and I both had box stock bikes as we ran WERA ESS as well as CCS. To put things into perspective He ran 1:21-22 on his ninja 250, I think my best on a stocker was in the upper 22 range, and my suspension has improved in the last couple seasons so i'm sure I could improve on that, on his KTM390 he ran consistant 21's and then 20's when he tested suspension for KTM. He and I didn't lose many races anywhere we went unless it was to each other. When he stopped racing his 250 I was left with not much competition so I started messing with my engine, I found it easy to make more power and am, at this point, just out having fun. If it came down to it I would go back to stock and still be winning races. As a matter of fact I will build a class legal bike for next season and I believe the results will be the same. Anyway, back to perspective, my "built bike" (which consequently has all Kawasaki parts in it aside from the head gasket and cylinders) I turned a low 19 on with Drew hot on my tail on his 300 which I know for a fact is a SS build. Theres also another 50HP 300 out there with stock bore and stroke.
Love this statement, Bruce.
Quote from: dmj_88 on October 31, 2016, 08:42:50 PMLastly, If you think the people at the pointy end of the class are there because they are on "built" bikes I would wager that those same riders on stock bikes with only race rubber/plastics would still be fighting for the win. They are not winning because of what bike they are on, they are winning because they are faster riders.
Let's clarify. The people at the pointy end are there because they are white plate experts. All the yellow plates like me are in the back, and none of us will ever get on the podium. I'm just there for the battles and because I love the small bikes. (mostly I like not spending $1600 a year on tires, hahah)
The ultralight class isn't going to get more racers under the current rule structure. But nobody seems to be willing to do anything about it. Does anyone have any ideas besides "let's not change anything?"
Hey, I'm just curious, for any of you guys in the midwest: If a spec 300 class showed up to be run at kart tracks such as USAIR and the Road America Motorplex, how many of you would get in if the rules were based on this (http://specclassracing.com/bike-spec/)?
Quote from: bruce71198 on October 29, 2016, 05:56:20 PM
If it came down to it I would go back to stock and still be winning races. As a matter of fact I will build a class legal bike for next season and I believe the results will be the same. Anyway, back to perspective, my "built bike" (which consequently has all Kawasaki parts in it aside from the head gasket and cylinders) I turned a low 19 on with Drew hot on my tail on his 300 which I know for a fact is a SS build. Theres also another 50HP 300 out there with stock bore and stroke.
Wait, so earlier on you said the R3 and RC390 should have to run Supersport rules. Yet you have a "250" that is making 50HP? How is that fair? So I get to ride around with 40 hp, and supersport rules while you can do pretty much anything to your Ninja 250 or 300 in order to make 50hp and do other weight loss mods?
Sounds like there is absolutely no reason the KTM and R3 shouldn't be allowed in the UL class.
Quote from: Zaph on October 31, 2016, 10:56:39 PM
Let's clarify. The people at the pointy end are there because they are white plate experts. All the yellow plates like me are in the back, and none of us will ever get on the podium. I'm just there for the battles and because I love the small bikes. (mostly I like not spending $1600 a year on tires, hahah)
The ultralight class isn't going to get more racers under the current rule structure. But nobody seems to be willing to do anything about it. Does anyone have any ideas besides "let's not change anything?"
Hey, I'm just curious, for any of you guys in the midwest: If a spec 300 class showed up to be run at kart tracks such as USAIR and the Road America Motorplex, how many of you would get in if the rules were based on this (http://specclassracing.com/bike-spec/)?
Stop posting inaccurate information, please! People at the pointy end are
not there because they are experts, they are there because they are faster riders! A yellow plate WON the ULTB championship this year and was consistently on the podium, even winning a handful of races. Last year yellow plates where consistently on the podium, won a handful of races and finished 2nd
and 3rd in the championship. The year before that yellow plates were also wining races and a yellow plate won the national championship at Daytona.
DO NOT say yellow plates will never finish on the podium and are always at the back when it is just not true.
Furthermore, if you are just there for the battles why do you care WHO finishes on the podium. Personally I rather finish 8th having a great battle with multiple people than ride off into the sunset in first place...
I think people are trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist! The class IS growing under the current rule structure, I have yet to hear exactly what
"needs" to be changed that doesn't already have a solution.
Quote from: Capitalview on November 01, 2016, 02:38:27 AM
Wait, so earlier on you said the R3 and RC390 should have to run Supersport rules. Yet you have a "250" that is making 50HP? How is that fair? So I get to ride around with 40 hp, and supersport rules while you can do pretty much anything to your Ninja 250 or 300 in order to make 50hp and do other weight loss mods?
Sounds like there is absolutely no reason the KTM and R3 shouldn't be allowed in the UL class.
The R3 and 390 already have two classes to run in. Bruce's bike didn't make 50HP this season that I'm aware of, low to mid 4Xs maybe. A well built supersport R3 has already proven to be in the 44+ HP range (must change base and head gaskets as that is a known issue on those bikes)
The fast Barry ninja "250" is not legal for supersport and thus WON'T be entered in 500SS where your Supersport R3 belongs. If you want to build a 50HP R3 then run it in Moto3 with Bruce's "250" and it's a fair matchup. If you build a bike to meet rules of a specific class don't be disappointed that it can then not run other classes it's not currently legal for.
That would be like going out and getting a Duc 749R for Thunderbike, and then complaining it cant run LWSS.
Quote from: Zaph on October 31, 2016, 10:56:39 PM
Hey, I'm just curious, for any of you guys in the midwest: If a spec 300 class showed up to be run at kart tracks such as USAIR and the Road America Motorplex, how many of you would get in if the rules were based on this (http://specclassracing.com/bike-spec/)?
We used to run both those tracks with NWGP. Turn out was weak for the ninja's but both were fun tracks to run on those bikes. I have a GoPro video of Ray Hofman and I chasing each other around at USAIR, I'll see if I can post it.
:wtf:
We used to run both those tracks with NWGP. Turn out was weak for the ninja's but both were fun tracks to run on those bikes. I have a GoPro video of Ray Hofman and I chasing each other around at USAIR, I'll see if I can post it.
Damn forum, wouldn't post what I typed! We used to run both those tracks with North Woods GP, fun but turnout was poor for the Ninja's. Does anyone know how to post a video here?
Quote from: Capitalview on November 01, 2016, 02:38:27 AM
Wait, so earlier on you said the R3 and RC390 should have to run Supersport rules. Yet you have a "250" that is making 50HP? How is that fair? So I get to ride around with 40 hp, and supersport rules while you can do pretty much anything to your Ninja 250 or 300 in order to make 50hp and do other weight loss mods?
Sounds like there is absolutely no reason the KTM and R3 shouldn't be allowed in the UL class.
Quote from: Capitalview on November 01, 2016, 02:38:27 AM
Wait, so earlier on you said the R3 and RC390 should have to run Supersport rules. Yet you have a "250" that is making 50HP? How is that fair? So I get to ride around with 40 hp, and supersport rules while you can do pretty much anything to your Ninja 250 or 300 in order to make 50hp and do other weight loss mods?
Sounds like there is absolutely no reason the KTM and R3 shouldn't be allowed in the UL class.
Let me clarify, This would make a competitive class for ULW: Ninja 250=Thunderbike rules 300cc max.
Ninja300 & Yamaha320=SS rules
KTM390=cup spec. minus throttle stop
Quote from: dmj_88 on November 01, 2016, 08:28:26 AM
[size=78%]Furthermore, if you are just there for the battles why do you care WHO finishes on the podium. Personally I rather finish 8th having a great battle with multiple people than ride off into the sunset in first place...[/size]
Yeah I like the battles, but let's get serious. This isn't a track day, it's racing. The podium is always important.
This year I did a total of 7 individual races on 3 different race weekends. I don't think there has been a yellow plate on the podium in any of those races. I don't know about last year, but this year there hans't been much for yellow plates in any of the classes I've been in.
In a couple races, I was the fastest amateur, but I wasn't anywhere near the podium. For me, racing has been a little lonely in ultralight classes. The white plates take off, the beginners fall behind and I'm by myself for the rest of the race. The few battles I've had were with lightweight riders, where any passes didn't count for position.
I'm throwing ideas around here, but all I really want is more people to race against. I don't care if it's R3's or RC390's but I would like more amatuers, and I would like a set of rules to bring the competition closer together.
Quote from: bruce71198 on November 01, 2016, 10:38:50 AM
Let me clarify, This would make a competitive class for ULW: Ninja 250=Thunderbike rules 300cc max.
Ninja300 & Yamaha320=SS rules
KTM390=cup spec. minus throttle stop
I like this. Could even go further and say CBR250's can run the 305 kit with cam and MR12. (everyone else runs pump gas) It would bring those bikes right into the mix too. And the Honda fanboys would get all excited. The grid could be huge.
But yeah, selective modification for specific bikes would bring everyone together.
get some rules set in stone where a 250 can compete and i'm in
Quote from: dmj_88 on November 01, 2016, 08:42:33 AM
That would be like going out and getting a Duc 749R for Thunderbike, and then complaining it cant run LWSS.
This is exactly my point. No, I would not go and get a Ducati 749, or a 748, and expect to run lightweight classes with them. Specifically because they were designed and marketed as middle weight bikes. For some reason CCS rule makers saw fit to allow them into Thunderbike and LWF40 though. This is also the reason the BMW HP2 isn't allowed in lightweight classes. It was never marketed as a lightweight bike even though it fits into the lightweight class structure. That is pretty much a direct quote from Eric Kelcher.
The R3 and RC390 have been specifically designed and marketed as entry level sport bikes and are in DIRECT competition with the Ninja 300 for market segment. All three are grouped together in every other major racing organization. Even in the new FIM ultra lightweight class running next year.
I would have no problem with the RC390 running without the throttle stop too. Specifically because of what I stated above. Running different brands of bike in a race org one brand might have an advantage over the others. That is the nature of the beast in racing. New bikes come out that are better than the old ones. That is not a reason to exclude them from the class though.
Quote from: bruce71198 on November 01, 2016, 10:38:50 AM
Let me clarify, This would make a competitive class for ULW: Ninja 250=Thunderbike rules 300cc max.
Ninja300 & Yamaha320=SS rules
KTM390=cup spec. minus throttle stop
This sounds great to me!
Although, if you ran a non cup RC390, would you have to get a throttle stop then?
I have no problem with the RC390 running unrestricted. It is a nature of the beast in racing that one manufacturer can have an advantage over another. It can all change the next year though. Plus, I have found the R3 has the advantage on the top end where the 390 has it in the low end. As long as I keep my RPMs high enough I don't have a problem with the 390. Other than on race starts. As I have used the R3 more though, even this has been getting better for me.
Kawasaki 300 takes pole and wins inaugural WSS300 race. Yamaha R3 2nd Honda CBR500 third...
Just an FYI, I was out at chuckwalla 2 times over the winter, HUGE ultralight weight turn out out there, 36 bikes on the grid. Also down in Florida they've been getting big turnouts.
It sure seems like its time to let the R3 in......... :biggrin:
Quote from: trace33chargers on September 09, 2015, 01:48:26 PM
At CCS last time, Bruce was on the Metrakit. I'm not a great rider, and I was riding just a tad bit slower than Bruce on that bike (and Bruce is fast) while I was on a Ninja250. So I would not call that a GP bike. The KTM 300 was a clerical error (there were many that weekend). That was a Ninja300.
That's because technically the Metrakit not a GP bike but a Pre GP 125. Honda RS 125, Honda NSF 250 and MD 250 can run circles around it.
This past weekend at RRR every bike on the grid in the 300 GT got DQ'ed :banghead:
Three R3s and one Metrakit. There would of been one more R3 but he was told he couldn't run in 300 GT during registration.
Quote from: SuperLex Dad on August 30, 2017, 01:02:18 AM
This past weekend at RRR every bike on the grid in the 300 GT got DQ'ed :banghead:
Three R3s and one Metrakit. There would of been one more R3 but he was told he couldn't run in 300 GT during registration.
I was wondering when that would happen. We're ok with it here in FL plus it's nice to have more bikes on the grid, but all anyone has to do is point to the bike and say no. Not a very hard protest. Wait until next year when the 300 is replaced by the 400.
IMO, a lesson should be taken from the other FL org regarding these ultralight classes, and before I post it and get flamed, I get the whole "everybody gets a trophy"....
Grid them all together, but in separately scored classes
250
300
320/390/metrakit
125GP
Whatever.... I've chatted enough with the guys running the FMRRA rounds, nobody cares if you're blatantly cheating, like slicks and pod filters on SS bikes, or in this case an R3 in 300GT, just run the next class up. We're all out there together and it forms a huge grid but nobody gets butt hurt over someone else's faster bike. It's a scalp if you can beat them, no harm if you don't.
I'll bet SuperLex is grinning from ear to ear when she passes an SV or whatever LWT bike thats gridded in the race in front of us. It shouldn't even matter, they're not even in her race, but it does.
Edit: I do like Bruce's idea, but instead of trying to conform every bike to one race, just combine multiple classes into the same grid. Easier, IMO