elec. scoring and qualifying

[r6_philly]

I know we probably all thought about it, and was told that it cost too much, or it takes too long, no time to run qualifying sessions, etc.

But I think grid by entry date system is not only unfair in some cases (most of us can't afford to pay 1000's of dollars at the begining of year, or don't know about our schedule to ensure a front row start) it is also dangerous sometimes, when the fast guys grided on the last row try to make it to the front pass 30+ guys in a 5 lap sprint.

I know it is not very pratical to grid by qualifying, with the # of classes that we have.

But with electronic scoring (whenever or if CCS ever adapts it) could we use the morning practice sessions as qualifying sessions and grid all races entered by the best laptime?

What do you guys think?

From my personal experience, I have yet to finish top 5, even though I turn laptimes close to the top 5. Because I have only been able to enter 2 weeks in advance at the earlist, I have to fight through over 20 people to finish near top 10. Some times it is frustrating, sometimes it is dangerous, sometimes it is just not worth going to races. (skipping next VIR because I don't want to drive 8 hours to start 55th on the grid) but I won't know if I am free til next week.

What do you guys/girls think? Timed practice/qualifying? Loudon does it for practice groups. What if we do it for grids?

[h00ktern]

I'm sure that gridding by pre-registration is the most time economical. But I do agree with all your points. I'm sure most do.

While I do not have the experience, nor administrative intellect to offer a solution. I am sure that if one could be found - one that didn't create more headaches than is currently in place, CCS would implement it. I guess that pretty much makes my response totally useless. I don't have a constructive solution.

Trying to please *everyone* will never come about. I do think that some form of Lap Time Gridding should be in place, even if it reverted to placed finish last time at that particular track. If you are fast, you deserve to be up front. If you're a slug, then the back is appropriate. I think that trying to argue any other logic is questionable.

The key would be implementation into the program, where the actual work involved in gathering the data, and then structuring the grid, would not create more work and expenditure of time for the organizers.

Safe trips, good point.
Dave

[sportbikepete]

Well while we are on the subject of being fed up I've got one also. What the hell is wrong with you people running GTO AM!? I have yet to get over 8 laps out of a 30 minute race because idiots think this is a goddamn sprint race. Jesus guys why make a bone head pass so early in a race when you will have plenty of time? Instead you crash out hard and they call the ENTIRE race for everyone. Sit back keep showing the guy a wheel and eventually he will tire out or you will get by him within a lap. Blah blah I'm sorry it is just so ridiculous.

[dave333]

Well while we are on the subject of being fed up I've got one also. What the hell is wrong with you people running GTO AM!? I have yet to get over 8 laps out of a 30 minute race because idiots think this is a goddamn sprint race. Jesus guys why make a bone head pass so early in a race when you will have plenty of time? Instead you crash out hard and they call the ENTIRE race for everyone. Sit back keep showing the guy a wheel and eventually he will tire out or you will get by him within a lap. Blah blah I'm sorry it is just so ridiculous.

agreed.  i was doing just that, playing with the slower rider in front of me, waiting for a clean pass.  someone further up in the pack crashed and was laid out too close to the track and they called the entire race...

[sdiver68]

Agreed that pre-entry date is tough.

How about girdding by Performance index?  Or a combined formula with Performance index and season points?  

The problem with the qualifying idea, imo, is it turns practice into a race.  What happens when the same guy who red flags a GTO 5 laps in goes bonzai in practice and red flags the entire practice session?  Particularly with a green, morning track?

I, too, will skip a race or 2 I would want to go to just because those back row starts on tight tracks make it damn near impossible to get a decent result.

[r6_philly]

How about girdding by Performance index?  Or a combined formula with Performance index and season points?  

The problem with the qualifying idea, imo, is it turns practice into a race.  What happens when the same guy who red flags a GTO 5 laps in goes bonzai in practice and red flags the entire practice session?  Particularly with a green, morning track?

Griding based on performance index is an idea. Although it probably have to be an lifetime performance index. but the current performance index, I can finish 10 from 50th, and still have a lower index than the guy who starts 5th and finish 4th.

Maybe we should revert to a personal best laptime system. If everyone uses a transponder, we would be able to log the best time per person per track and grid based on the laptime. That would be pretty fair, and wouldn't turn practice into a race (I see that now, totally bad idea :)

[ALAN]

GRID BY POINTS IN CLASS

[r6_philly]

GRID BY POINTS IN CLASS

Actually thats a nice idea, and good for CCS because it encourage people to enter more races to get better grid postions.

Maybe grid by points for Pre-entry, so they have time to figure it out, and grid by entry order post-entry (if it is a burden to figure out who have more points). How about that? I would still want to be able to get a good spot if I sign up raceday morning, but at least 2 weeks is a better solutions than $4000 in Feb.

I still would like the timing idea better, but the points system would be easier to implement.

[skydiver19]

The software/ability to grid by cumulative class points certainly exists--look no further than WERA.  

The advantages are many, not the least of which is that those who are competing for a championship are gridded at the front and can compete with one another.  Those who are chasing championships wouldn't have to run up their credit card just to have a shot at running at the front.  Ultimately this rewards the racers who are following the "Series" part of Championship Cup Series.  Would there still be some local guns who only run the one track that have to work from the back to the front?  Sure, but that will never change.  Will there be some slower riders who run a lot of races and accumulate enough points to be near the front?  Sure, but slower riders at the front due to pre-reg. is already an issue so this is a moot point.  

My cynical view is that the current pre-register/grid format is all about the $$$$$  CCS collects a significant portion of the money up front this way as opposed to waiting to the date of the event.  How many people would pre-reg. if it didn't affect their starting position ?  Honestly, I'd like to be wrong.  But your money in CCS's account does a lot more for CCS than your money in your account.

[Dawn]

skydiver16 - "My cynical view is that the current pre-register/grid format is all about the $$$$$  CCS collects a significant portion of the money up front this way as opposed to waiting to the date of the event.  How many people would pre-reg. if it didn't affect their starting position ?"

Personally I don't think it is all about the $$$$, athough I am sure it is one of the bonus of doing it that way.  Pre-registering is a way to get an idea of how many people will be racing for a particular event, and a way to stream line things.  We have plenty of people who wait to register the day of the event and that creates long lines and many more staff that is needed to get everyone registered before practices start.  (OK disorganization and kaos is a pet peeve of mine  :-/).

We pre-register at least two weeks before the event that we will be going to and it seems to be working good in our region.  Plus...  It makes my life a lot less stressful.

Dawn   :)

[SUPERBIKE_MIKE]

I would like to here Kevin Elliots thoughts on this subject.

[ecumike]

I agree with ALAN and R6... for Pre-entry grid by points, then for post entry grid by entry order.. behind the pre-entryers.

Pre-entryers, even if you are like 50th in points, you will still be in front of post-entryers, even if they are above you in the rankings.

yea.. how about a poll on this subject?

[r6_philly]

We pre-register at least two weeks before the event that we will be going to and it seems to be working good in our region.  Plus...  It makes my life a lot less stressful.

Dawn   :)

So do I, but the last 3 races, I registered 2 weeks ahead of time, on Wed/Thur.

My best grid out of whole 3 weekend is 6A. Which is the first row of second wave. I managed to finish almost all sprint races in the top 15, whith one 7th.

I know if I start in the first 3 rows, I would have a shot at the podium. But right now, I can get 10th if everything goes well. (I am not that fast, just faster than average)

I am top 10 in all 3 classes I compete in. I would gladly registered 2 weeks in advance if I can start on the 3rd row. Then I would finish better and move up even more.

ROC is grided by points, and I think the regionals should be too. And what is the incentive for people still pre-enter? If you post enter, you still end  up gridding by order of entry. so I will still send my money in before 2 weeks so I can have my points matter.



Start a poll someone? what choices? just a simple yes or no?

[bfkidd]

Points would certainly be nice. A few years ago I registered a month and a half beforehand for a summit race and was way back in the 2nd wave for every race. And this was the lightweight class! I was chasing points too so it really sucked. The next year I registered for all the summit races either before or right after daytona. It was the only way to guarantee a front row position. And even then I wasn't on the pole! I think I was even on the second row a few times if you can believe that.

[Team_Serpent]

The way that CCS grids by time of entry is exactly the reason I don't race the series much.  When I do plan to attend a CCS event (see you guys at Road America in August  :) ) I ussualy pre-reg. way in advance (registered in March for August Road America) just to make sure I don't get stuck at the back of the grid.  I also pre-reg. so I don't have to stand in line the morning of the race and miss practice.
With WERA I can pre-reg the entire season and they charge my credit card aprox. 2 weeks in advance of each event.
The CCS gridding policy makes absolutely no sense from a racers standpoint and I tend to agree with those who feel it's dangerous.
The grids should be posted by Class points.
One nice thing about it though, I don't have to run the series and can show up and ussually be grid within the first three rows