When did CCS tube the Spotsman classes?

[MACOP1104]

And why?  Why not bring them back and have them start with the ltwt bikes.  Call it sportsman.  Superbike rules.  EXs, Hawks, and FZR400s, and Motards.  Won't take up track time and offers more entries for CCS.   What you think?
 

[Eric Kelcher]

2004
there were not any bikes being produced/imported for the classes or in case of ultralight sportsman noone was building/running the motards the class was designed for so grids fell to unsustainable levels.

What has changed in last 7 years?

[majicMARKer]

The SV is now the dominant bike for Ultralight Superbike. Oh wait count the 125GP bike too. The 125GP bike will literally run away from a well ridden LW bike at Jennings and it also runs damn well against my Ducati 800 on all the other tracks.

There are quite a few Motards here in Florida but were special. There are also three FZR400 here too. No concessions for those bikes, Next year I will submit my requests for the FZR400. I love running the FZR and it is time for a little concession.

[MACOP1104]

2004
there were not any bikes being produced/imported for the classes or in case of ultralight sportsman noone was building/running the motards the class was designed for so grids fell to unsustainable levels.

What has changed in last 7 years?

What has changed is your competitor has a place for these bikes to race and you don't.  Starting them with an existing class doesn't use up track time.  If 3 or 4 bikes show up that's more entries.  First, you run off the Sportsman guys, then you run off the SV guys, now you're pissing off everyone else in lightweight by allowing in the GP bikes.  Keep it up and you'll have 2 guys on Bimotas and two guys on TZ250s racing each other.   "lightweight" bikes that cost 3 times more than a 600.  That's a great lightweight grid.....

[majicMARKer]

I would spend three times the money on my Ducati 800 if I had it. Instead I bought three times the bikes.

[poppop587]

I don't understand why the LW class isn't just the class for everything unless it is a less than 10 year old 600, 750 or 1000.  Everything else seems to be in that class.  Bring a bike, any bike, it will be legal for LW in CCS.

[PlayHard]

What has changed is your competitor has a place for these bikes to race and you don't.  Starting them with an existing class doesn't use up track time.  If 3 or 4 bikes show up that's more entries.  First, you run off the Sportsman guys, then you run off the SV guys, now you're pissing off everyone else in lightweight by allowing in the GP bikes.  Keep it up and you'll have 2 guys on Bimotas and two guys on TZ250s racing each other.   "lightweight" bikes that cost 3 times more than a 600.  That's a great lightweight grid.....

   

Like I said before, I think there intention is to produce larger grids.  You know the analogy, keep dumping bikes into the LT class and eventually we will have big grids.  Unfortunately, I think the last couple changes to the light weight rules are actually contributing to SMALLER grids and the guys in charge either don't get it, or just don't care.  There's always going to be those who think this bike should be allowed in, or that one should be allowed in but good sound business decisions is ultimately what should be considered.  After all, CCS is in business to make money.  The light weight class is a perfect example of making POOR business decisions.  From a business prospective, you should look at the class and take note of your biggest costumer (most common bike on the grid).  Now common sense dictates that you don't make rules changes that might  run off that costumer, right?     

[MACOP1104]

I don't understand why the LW class isn't just the class for everything unless it is a less than 10 year old 600, 750 or 1000.  Everything else seems to be in that class.  Bring a bike, any bike, it will be legal for LW in CCS.

That's pretty much what it has turned into.  With the current rules, it's cheaper to race a 600 then it is to race lightweight.  In CCS, the days of buying a competitive supersport legal bike for $3500 are gone.  Now, you have to buy a Bimota or dump a wad of cash into a Ducati to have a competitive lightweight ride.  The question is where does the low budget racer go where he can be competitive?  The answer is WERA.  A lot of SV guys I have talked to are switching over.  Plus the guys with older Sportsman bikes can race in D superbike or in some cases Clubman.  Check out the WERA Forum.   There is already chatter about WERA trying to get a race at Daytona.   

[MACOP1104]

speaking of rules, how come the BMW HP2 is indexed out of lightweight classes but the Bimota isn't???

[apriliaman]

There used to be always more then 20 bikes in a LW race when i started. in 2000. In 2006 I went to barber and there was 35 bikes in my race and I got my worst finish ever at 23rd place!!In 2009 when we were there there was only around 5 bikes in the same races.I guess thats why we dont go there anymore.I would like to have another class to race my FZR also.
No one says anything about 600's?? What if you have a 1997 ZX6R or a 1998 GSXR 600? Your not goona catch up to the newer bikes so what do you do??? Just save them for track days I guess, and have fun riding them not worrying about how fast your going.

[majicMARKer]

We are getting off topic a little here and back to the "what is lightweinght" topic. I believe the rules have been this way for some years now until adding in the GP bikes into the Superbike class. The Ducati motor tech hasn't really changed much, but the bikes have become better. Yes Bimota has built a bike that is ultra expensive for the average beginner. If I can use Kat on her Bimotas-she truely is a first year racer with the ability to afford a Bimota and she has done well. She has improved tremendously by riding what it seems like every weekend. She attends every big school known to man stateside and even abroad. That's why she is fast.

Now back on topic-Sportsman, Yes but maybe make it GP rules. GP rules will allow me to use an FZR600 case and replace the aging and hard to find FZR400 case. There is not much difference in the case and yes the 560cc motor is built using FZR400 case and 600 crank.

Then there is the topic of that FZR rider cheating and using oversize FZR600 motor. Is it any different than the current crop of SV guys running Ultralight with larger bore motors. I see so many times SV guys with High comp pistons running SS, or that SS legal overbored SV running Ultralight. I don't complain because in my eyes they need it to keep the competition close.

In Florida we have been able to bring back the Vintage class after it had been cancelled the year before. What we have chosen is to run a limited schedule during the year. We initially chose to not have trophies, although Henry has continued to give out plaques for the top three. In the end the Top Premier Class points leader won this really nice trophy($500).

[MACOP1104]

I would have no problem with "GP type" rules for sportsman.  I say GP type because the 2 stroke GP bikes will jump in there also.  Yes I agree, the ease of cheating should not drive the rulebook.  In some ways it has (milling of the head and quickshifters in supersport) but if you need FZR600 cases it shouldn't be an issue.  If someone feels you're running a full FZR motor than it's up to then to lay down the cash and protest. 

As far as older in-line 4 cyl bikes like 94-99 600s.  Make a vintage 600 class and let them run with the 600s but scored separately.
 Once again like a stated before.  A new class that runs with an existing one doesn't burn track time and adds entries.

[majicMARKer]

I like the idea

[poppop587]

Again, I simply want to know what other class has bikes from 125cc to 1200cc in it.  That doesn't sound reasonable to me or anyone else that I know.   Now to talk about the cheating issue.  Cheating should never be tolerated.  I know that some may unknowingly cheat by misreading a rule or simply not knowing but that is not normally the case.  Those that cheat know they are cheating and usually the guy that throws down the money in a protest is doing so because he is cheating and knows the other guy must be cheating to blow by him the way he just did.  Now with that said, the poor guy who bought a LW bike when it was a reasonable class may not be able to afford a new or different bike but he can afford to do a little cheating.  When the rules make you have to cheat to be competitive there is a major problem.  Once again, look at the enteries in the races going back several years when grids were larger.  Those bikes are leaving the racing grids and you are getting fewer bikes.  The bikes you are getting are the ones that you seem to be catering too.  If they were that important, the grids would have increased in size,  they did not.  I have run a business for many years, and I know that you never do anything to piss off the top 10% of your customers.  They generate 70% of you income.  CCS has taken it upon themselves to piss off 70%  of their customers and expect good things to come from it.  I don't think so!!!!  Please stop!!!   I have always liked running with CCS but you have made it impossible for me to justify spending my money with you except on rare occasions that you run at Summit or NJMP.

[majicMARKer]

Well this has been a thread about sportsman class racing and not the lightweight class-that's the other thread. Anyway the lightweight class seems to me as a class that is an indexed class where there are multiple configurations of motors and bikes coming together. For 2011 the Ultralight class will be a class including 125GP machines(water cooled) up to aircooled 800's. The lightweight will consist of 250GP machines(water cooled) up to aircooled 1200. Don't be fooled though because just because something is 1200 it doesn't mean it is the fastest. The 1200 also includes the Harley motors or are they 1300+??

I remember when middleweight was once GPZ550's and Seca 550's. That has changed and so must the lightweight class change as well. It is possible that a sportsman class would have been the more appropriate class but consider this-the lightweight class have had these rules for soe time now. The Ducati aircooled motor has been within those rules for a long time and haven't changed that much. Yeah Bimota has used that to their advantage and built a bike using the Ducati 1070 motor (I think) which is also based on the 1000DS.

Typically around the country you won't be racing against a Bimota so there is no reason for you to worry-not many can afford it. Racing against a Ducati 1000 was put to the test when Arnie Hastings took on some very fast Ducati 1000 riders and beat them with his SV. It can be done. Spend enough time with your SS SV and you can achieve some of the things that Ed Key has achieved with his SS SV.

If the Sportsman class was to be instituted should the lightweight class be populated by the true lightweight machine-the FZR400?

Just some thoughts... Time moves on and CCS has chosen a different path than WERA.

I wonder what the grids were like for WERA say ten years ago, and the comparison of the CCS grids at the same time. I seem to think that the grids are smaller just because the grids are smaller. It seems to me that the most populated class is the middleweight class.