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Author Topic: Lightweight rules 2011?  (Read 5440 times)

Gino230

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Lightweight rules 2011?
« on: November 24, 2010, 10:13:32 AM »
Let me preface this by saying I have been riding in the LW class for over 10 years on an Aprilla RS250, old Ducati 750S, Honda Hawk, SV650, and now Ducati 1000DS. I think it's time for some changes in the LW Class rules.

There are only two sportbikes currently produced that are legal for LW classes- the Suzuki SV650 and the Kawasaki Ninja 650. Both of these bikes are not very competitive from the factory and require modification to compete in anything other than Supersport, and even then with difficulty.

Ducati does not currently produce a bike that is competitive, only the Monster and Hypermotard fit the engine displacement limits and those are not suitable for racing.

Buell does not currently produce any LW eligible machinery.

Yamaha does not currently produce any LW eligible machinery.

Bimota does not currently produce any LW eligible machinery.

My point is that most bikes that are competing today in LW classes are past models that are highly modified for racing use. The most competitive is the Bimota which is a superbike chassis with a LW class engine and a $30,000 price tag. Far from entry level.

I know the debate about Ducati 748's has raged on here- and I agree that when built to the limit it is too fast for Lightweight. But what about limiting the 748 (NO RS MODEL) to Supersport mods and only in GP, GT, and SB? It's already allowed in Thuderbike so no problem there.

There are tons of these things cheap on ebay, and you can build one for about $3500 from parts.

As a second option, how about allowing larger machines to be resized for LW? They do this in WERA, it was pretty common to find de-stroked 748's that were 700CC and SV's that were de stroked to fit in the LW twins category. I think RRW did an article on these. Why is this banned in CCS?

Even one step further- why not allow different frame and engine combos for SB, and GT? I would love to put my 1000DS motor into my 996 chassis. As it is there are bikes riding around (I saw two this week alone) that have been heavily modified to accept the single sided rear swingarm from a monster or 748. This basically involves sawing the bike in half and is legal- why not just let us use the whole frame?

To be clear, SuperSport rules should stay unchanged, but let us have some latitude with the SB and GT, and Thunderbike rules. There are no bikes being produced so let's start building some!

Fire away, I'm putting my head down now!
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Re: Lightweight rules 2011?
« Reply #2 on: November 24, 2010, 03:54:39 PM »
Wait. You said that only Suzuki and Kawi produce bikes for LW yet in the next sentence you said that Ducati does too.
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Peter998

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Re: Lightweight rules 2011?
« Reply #3 on: November 24, 2010, 04:40:19 PM »
I have a 1000SS with a single sided swing arm from a 998 and the frame did not need to be cut in 1/2 and the original engine cases can be used. You only need to create a spot for the rear shock linkage.

I have also seen the current Monster model raced successfully this year at Summit Point.
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mwsportsimaging

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Re: Lightweight rules 2011?
« Reply #4 on: November 24, 2010, 08:57:50 PM »
From the factory, the $7995 MRX gives the twins class racer an edge.

At Fischer Motor Company, racing is a driving force behind our efforts. We are a small company, but racing is our background and our passion. We aren't to the point yet of having a factory effort, but we will support racers who take the Fischer MRX to compete against other twins class products from the Japanese manufacturers. Beginning in 2010 we will be supporting efforts in CCS and WERA regional and national rounds throughout the United States. To be considered for sponsorship opportunities, please contact us via email at racing@fischer1.com

Gino230

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Re: Lightweight rules 2011?
« Reply #5 on: November 25, 2010, 12:56:21 AM »
Actually I said Ducati does not produce a bike that is competitive- the monster and Hypermotard aren't sportbikes, really. Yeah, they do fit the displacement categories, though. So does a KTM hypermotard. Exactly HOW successfully were these raced?

I didn't know about the Aprilia Shiver or the BMW. Nice but expensive..... So, the 10 year old 748 shouldn't be legal but the new BMW 800 and Aprilia 750 should?

Peter, how exactly did you mount a single sided swingarm without using any part of the 748 / 996 frame? Doesn't that swingarm need to mount to the engine cases AND frame?

Not saying these aren't good options, I'm just genuinely curious as to what the low cost, COMPETITIVE options are.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2010, 01:02:06 AM by Gino230 »
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2006 CCS Florida Thunderbike Champion (AM)
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MACOP1104

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Re: Lightweight rules 2011?
« Reply #6 on: November 25, 2010, 03:15:43 PM »
How about making an ULWSS class to go with the ULWSB class, then let all the air cooled 1000/1100 race the 748 in thunderbike, LWGP?

Peter998

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Re: Lightweight rules 2011?
« Reply #7 on: November 26, 2010, 12:51:27 PM »
Gino,

The swingarm fits into the stock engine case and a mount and supports needs to be welded into the frame to accept the 998 shock linkage. Other than that the frame does not need to be modified.

My frame is modified, seat support section removed and aluminum subframe installed, but that was a weight saving effort with no relation to the single sided swing arm.

I have no issue with 748's being included in the LW class I maybe saw 2 all year in Thunderbike.
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majicMARKer

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Re: Lightweight rules 2011?
« Reply #8 on: November 26, 2010, 05:15:13 PM »
Peter,

Did you do the swingarm conversion yourself or was this bought this way? Did you also do the 2 to 1 exhaust with that lightweight subframe? How much does your bike weigh?

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Gino230

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Re: Lightweight rules 2011?
« Reply #9 on: November 26, 2010, 06:51:47 PM »
Peter,

The ones I saw had the "drop" from the 996 / 748 frame welded on to the back of the 900SS frame. The 996 single sided swingarm goes through the engine cases and is braced on either side by the frame- thus making the whole setup stiffer.

Does yours just pivot in the cases and that's the only point of attachment? How does it handle?

I was honestly thinking let us run the 748 in SS trim, no (RS motors). This should be competitive with the built 1200 bimota / buells, the 800 BMW or 750 Aprilla Shiver.

That or let us downsize the 748 to 700CC or bolt a different motor in the frame for SB, GT, and Thunderbike.

Could be a cost effective way to get more COMPETITIVE bikes on the LW grid.
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Peter998

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Re: Lightweight rules 2011?
« Reply #10 on: November 26, 2010, 07:39:46 PM »
I bought the bike already done. I believe that Donny Unger did the conversion.

I have had to reweld it twice, and for this comming year I will put stronger gussets in to make sure it holds together.

The froma does not come down to the swingarm pivot like the superbikes do. The bike turns in like a Superbike and is very stable mid corner. I weighed the bike at the ROC, and it weighed 365lbs with about 1 gal of gas.

Peter Meringolo 2010 Expert/ASRA # 998
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Re: Lightweight rules 2011?
« Reply #11 on: November 26, 2010, 11:41:06 PM »
Thanks Peter. So compared to my Duc 800 your bike is actually heavier by a few pounds where mine weighs in at 365lbs with 2 gallons of fuel on the same scale. Comparing the 748 chassis to my 800 chassis after ridden both I would have to say the turn in is about the same but the stability.
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Gino230

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Re: Lightweight rules 2011?
« Reply #12 on: November 27, 2010, 03:39:09 PM »
Mark,

I know you have a composite fuel tank but do you have wheels or anything else? My 1000 is just a hair under 400lbs....
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George_Linhart

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Re: Lightweight rules 2011?
« Reply #13 on: November 27, 2010, 06:51:54 PM »
Guys - I think you are all barking up the wrong tree.  LW class rules should not be bastardized to "fit" whatever bike you have that isn't competitive in another class and isn't legal in LW now.  We should not use the LW classes to try and create a new low cost class, nor should we be using it to morph into a new "classics" class (AKA - dumping ground for old MW class equipment).  Look, I am sorry that the 748 isn't an effective MW bike anymore. Also, no, a pre 1992 CBR600 or FZR600 isn't going to win any MW championships - however, I don't think it is a good thing to transform the LW classes into a classic MW class .  Lets just think this through further and let me know where does it stop?  If you say 11 year old MW class bikes can step down to LW, then you have to allow the 1999 Yamaha R-6, in 2014 you will have the 2003 R-6 legal - that is way better than any modified LW bike that I can imagine...  What about heavyweight and Unlimited class bikes - do we let them in if hey are old enough?  Do we end up, at some point, letting Ducati 916's and 996's in (and what if somebody finds an old WSB bike and decides to grid up - talk about opening the wallet)?

If you want to mix and match frames and motors - sorry, that is what the GP classes are for.  SS and SB should be production based.  If you stray from that model, feel free but you have tlo limit yourself tho the GP classes.  This would really open up the pandora's box of spending to the moon rather than going the other way around.

Racing isn't cheap.  I really believe that however you write the rules somebody will spend more money than you expect to create a class overdog- just look at the $30,000 Bimota's that you are talking about.  All these suggestions do is bend the rules from what has been a pretty stable class to benefit a contingent of riders of older machines.  Both CCS and WERA LW class rules- while they have a different overall structure - have been respectively stable for at least 7 years now.  I don't think that Mongo will argue the fact that WERA is really designed as a spec SV class; where CCS adopted and embraced a bit less restrictive approach with regard to the air cooled engines.  One is not necessarily right, the other is not necessarily wrong, they are just different and gives racers a choice.

The one complaint that keeps coming up that I do understand and sympathise with is a desire to try to find a new "budget" or limited expenditure class.  I don't think you should try and get there by messing with rules in any one class, least of all LW.  Think about it, LW is the only class where many of us can actually benefit from building a motor or really shaving pounds off a bike.  I couldn't ride a 200 bhp open class liter bike effectively - I just don't have the skill.  Taking an extra 5 lbs off of that same bike won't make any difference either.  However, every improvement I make to my superbike spec Ducati 1000SS does make a difference on the track.

If what we are trying to do is create a budget class or make the economics easier for a new racer, how about if we focus on creating a class were the rules are not about engine displacement, but rather are around restricted spending - I have suggested this many times before but bear with me again.  the only way to do this is though a "claimer" class.  No equipment limitations - only 2 rules - 1) safety per existing rulebook (safety wire, oil containing lower, etc); and, 2) after every race each contestant in the event can "claim" another rider's bike for some specified amount (for argument sake lets say $2,000.00).  Think about it, there is no incentive to spend anything over $2,000.00 as if you do it probably will be claimed.  It also would bring out some interesting backyard mechanics.  There may be some refinement necessary - but it is simple and focused on the point.

I am sure some will disagree -but - lets focus on what problem you are trying to solve and not make the LW class overall worse off for trying to solve a problem that shouldn't be forced upon us.

George


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Re: Lightweight rules 2011?
« Reply #14 on: November 27, 2010, 10:25:33 PM »
If I remember correctly, WERA had a "claimer" class, don't remember the specifics but, it was a class in which you had a price limit of $10,000 on your machine and that if someone wanted to buy your bike for $10,000, you had to sell it to them or you were stricken of all points and winnings for the year.

If you want to have an entry level class, then I say make a $5,000 claimer class which will allow one to buy a decent bike for say $3-$3,500 and have $1,500- $2,000 for upgrades and repair parts. Granted cc and air/water will be an issue but I think we can kill a couple of underfilled classes to fit the bill.

Now as for the age of the bike goes, I don't think that there is that much of a difference with the right rider. I was killing it @ RA in '09 with my '01 R6 and have the wood (5) to show for it. I bought it for $3,000 and did the suspension upgrades and dyno tuned it and that was all that was needed other than getting my head out of my a$$ and learning how to ride. BTW, the bike in my avitar is the bike I was running at the time.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2010, 10:34:53 PM by Noidly1 »
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