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Author Topic: Proposed Amendment to the Downgrade Rule  (Read 2470 times)

squirrel22

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Proposed Amendment to the Downgrade Rule
« on: November 09, 2010, 09:13:27 AM »
I can appreciate that some guys earn a bunch of points, but still aren't ready to go expert.  However, I think that some people have taken advantage of the rule and go on to win 30 races in a row.  For this circumstance, I propose the following amendment:

Riders who have downgraded back to amateur are allowed to stay amateur until they win their 400th point.  They will be bumped to expert status the event immediately following the weekend they win their 400th point.
 

Example:
Rider X earns 430 points in 2010 and gets bumped to expert for 2011, but feels he isn't ready to go expert.  He downgrades back to amateur for the 2011 season.  After 3 race weekends of entering into and winning 4 races each weekend, he has amassed 420 points.  His 4th race weekend of the year will then be as an expert.  He has clearly shown that he is no longer a deserving amateur.

majicMARKer

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Re: Proposed Amendment to the Downgrade Rule
« Reply #1 on: November 09, 2010, 09:46:55 AM »
That makes sense. I always thought the goal was to become expert and the amateur class was the place to get my feet wet.

I believe that the contingencies and cash payouts should reflect that and does to some degree. I can only speculate that the benefits of staying amateur can be quite good for many.
Mark Tenn
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twilkinson3

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Re: Proposed Amendment to the Downgrade Rule
« Reply #2 on: November 09, 2010, 12:50:08 PM »
One counterpoint - given grid sizes this last year (at least in the MW) if you ran most of the season in say LW (GP, SBK, SS) for instance it would be nearly impossible to NOT go over 400 points, not exactly what the rule was put in place to do originally I think but a recent issue with the grid sizes shrinking

squirrel22

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Re: Proposed Amendment to the Downgrade Rule
« Reply #3 on: November 09, 2010, 02:40:32 PM »
One counterpoint - given grid sizes this last year (at least in the MW) if you ran most of the season in say LW (GP, SBK, SS) for instance it would be nearly impossible to NOT go over 400 points, not exactly what the rule was put in place to do originally I think but a recent issue with the grid sizes shrinking

Is your example using someone who had earned 400+ the previous season as well? 

Team Spalding

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Re: Proposed Amendment to the Downgrade Rule
« Reply #4 on: November 09, 2010, 02:54:26 PM »
What squirrel has proposed is a great idea.
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Super Dave

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Re: Proposed Amendment to the Downgrade Rule
« Reply #5 on: November 09, 2010, 04:09:36 PM »
The two tier system isn't working.  I'm sure someone will pull up my three tier system again from several years ago sometime here in the next few months.
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apriliaman

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Re: Proposed Amendment to the Downgrade Rule
« Reply #6 on: November 09, 2010, 06:21:00 PM »
How about this rule?
Back when it was  CCS-FUSA a few years ago to be able to race at the race of champions you must race in at least 5 races in a class to be able to race in that race in the event.
Now you can race in a class that you never raced the whole year.
Someone can just borrow a bike and win that race and they are the national champ and didnt even do a regular race in the season.
And it happened this year!!
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scubabill

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Re: Proposed Amendment to the Downgrade Rule
« Reply #7 on: November 09, 2010, 07:03:37 PM »
I believe that the contingencies and cash payouts should reflect that and does to some degree. I can only speculate that the benefits of staying amateur can be quite good for many.

It might...lol
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Re: Proposed Amendment to the Downgrade Rule
« Reply #8 on: November 09, 2010, 07:48:30 PM »
Dave- The three tier does have merit and to some degree we do have that with ASRA being the top of that tier. The ASRA group certainly becomes more of the elite racers where they are some of the fastest racers in the group of CCS racers. it seems though that there are often larger Amateur groups compared to the Expert counterpart for that class.

Mark- The only problem  is that the current participation for the past few ROC events have been steadily declining. This year we had a lot of what you said with many racers never turning a wheel in the respective classes doing the ROC and even winning. It is what it is though.

Bill-You must move to Expert and I am sure you will do well.
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Noidly1

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Re: Proposed Amendment to the Downgrade Rule
« Reply #9 on: November 10, 2010, 12:49:03 AM »
I like squirrel's idea, however...

Some of the things I don't like about the 400 pt. rule is that someone can enter a crap load of races, ending in the rear, and accumulate the necessary pts. and get bumped.

Another is if someone races a class with a few riders, have a high performance index and/or maybe win a class championship and get bumped.

I believe the performance index would be a more representative indicator of ones eligibility of bumping, but not if there are only a few that enter that class.

I think that a more realistic approach would be to determine one's eligibility would be by their overall finish with the experts in each class or by their lap times for that class.

Just my .02 cents...

As for the 3 tier system; I am not familuar with it unless you are talking about something like what WERA has.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2010, 12:52:46 AM by Noidly1 »
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majicMARKer

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Re: Proposed Amendment to the Downgrade Rule
« Reply #10 on: November 10, 2010, 07:05:02 AM »
Noid- I guess it really depends on what "one" considers an expert. Is an expert someone that wins races consistently or is it a rider that is smooth, consistent, predictable or has a good track record as far as crashes?

I believe the "Expert" should possess the ability to make the right decisions at the right time as far as passing in particular. Being the fastest isn't a must to move to "Expert". I would also venture to say that the racer that participates in a large number of races have gained a considerable amount of riding experience that contributes to an Expert status(at least in my mind). Certainly the amateur that is running with the experts should be bumped to that expert field.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2010, 07:14:03 AM by majicMARKer »
Mark Tenn
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squirrel22

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Re: Proposed Amendment to the Downgrade Rule
« Reply #11 on: November 10, 2010, 08:43:58 AM »
I appreciate the discussion guys, I really do, but some of you are really starting to cloud the water.

This amendment is for people who have ALREADY DOWNGRADED BACK TO AMATEUR. 

SV88

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Re: Proposed Amendment to the Downgrade Rule
« Reply #12 on: November 10, 2010, 09:57:19 AM »
I like this idea having gone from a strong Amateur season in 07 (700+ points) to a series of weak expert seasons.  In my case it was more complicated because while I was having my strong AM season, I was passing most experts.  Not the case in the next few seasons.

I would argue that a more realist criteria for expert status would be a combination of points and perf. index.
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majicMARKer

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Re: Proposed Amendment to the Downgrade Rule
« Reply #13 on: November 10, 2010, 10:50:44 AM »
So back to the focus of the thread. A rider that achieved enough points to go to Expert but downgraded to stay amateur and then begins to win amateur races in the following year should be bumped to the expert class during that year. I agree.
Mark Tenn
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GSXR RACER MIKE

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Re: Proposed Amendment to the Downgrade Rule
« Reply #14 on: November 10, 2010, 02:50:22 PM »
I described in this thread ( http://www.ccsforum.com/index.php/topic,25286.0.html ) the major flaw with the Performance Index (P/I) calculation and a solution to fixing it.

Using P/I (in the corrected way I described in that other thread) for calculating the Amateur jump point to Expert would be a good thing because it would be based on actual results (wins vs last place finishes), I think that calculation should be used in ALL situations for the Expert bump (including the 1st time). When using P/I if someone was finishing Top 3 constantly it would be heavily reflected in their adjusted points - they would get to 400 points quickly - but if they were constantly finishing poorly their adjusted points would be very low and it would be very difficult for them to reach the Expert jump point in a season. In my opinion the only time an Amateur who's reached the bump point should be allowed to finish out the season is if it's their 1st time as an Amateur.

Another twist on this is to have an alternate 'Sandbagger Calculation' that applies to Amateur racers that have raced for more than 1 season with CCS, this would be designed to stop people from remaining an Amateur (who finishes well) for years on end by only racing enough to keep them below the bump point (ultimately the sandbaggers ruin it for all the true Amateurs who feel they don't have a chance against the sandbaggers). This would actually be very simple and would also use the per race P/I calculation (not averaged calculation), CCS could come up with a P/I and number of races that they believe is a fair point where someone is obviously not an Amateur and should be bumped up to Expert status. If (for example only) CCS decided the number of races was 10 and the P/I was 900 then as soon as someone had 10 finishes that had a 900 P/I or above they would be bumped to Expert per the 'Sandbagger Calculation' for their next event. This doesn't mean 10 finishes in a row with a 900 P/I, it means ANY 10 finishes with a 900 P/I or above - here's an example of P/I's that would eventually count toward the bump:

785, 909, 1000, 965, 900, 920, 810, 1000, 740, 830, 975, 910, 500, 1000, 770, 935

The biggest decision with this is what P/I is appropriate and how many races to use, but I would imagine the 900 P/I and 10 individual races isn't too far off since it would represent numerous Top 3 finishes in average size Middleweight races. Another option not using P/I at all is to say (for example) a certain amount of finishes that are Top 2 - maybe 10 could work here as well.

Something I've also seen as a discouragement to true Amateur racers is what I call 'Contingency Snipers' who only show up to race at 1 or 2 events in a season strictly for the contingency at those events - when they clearly are not Amateur racers. My solution for that is a single event Amateur 'Contingency Sniper' rule for those who just hop from org to org cherry picking the highest contingency payouts from Amateurs. Since contingency generally pays out based on finishing position (and not P/I) CCS for example could say 3 wins at a single event in any classes paying contingency would immediately bump that rider to Expert status at the end of that event. My justification for that is because an Amateur in almost any race class who wins 3 races at a single event should be able to finish in the Top 10 and possibly even the Top 5 as an Expert in those same classes either immediately or in a short period of time (at a regular Regional event). This rule wouldn't apply to riders in their 1st season with CCS.

That's my idea!  :thumb:
« Last Edit: November 11, 2010, 12:51:37 AM by GSXR RACER MIKE »
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