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Author Topic: T14 Crash @ RA, Sunday Race #6 (MWSS)  (Read 9556 times)

HAWK

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Re: T14 Crash @ RA, Sunday Race #6 (MWSS)
« Reply #30 on: July 09, 2008, 07:37:20 PM »
I have no problem with agressive passes, Jon took my line away a couple times at MAM and I never even gave it a second thought. At RA last weekend however he  came up next to me on the inside on the brakes into 6, He says he thought he was past me (and I believe he thought he was). He then moved over on me to get to the outside to start his turn. I was on the brakes with my rear wheel very light if not off the ground, I couldn't stop any harder and all I had to my right was grass. When he bumped me it put me into a rather nasty weave. If he had simply turned in fron the line he was on when he passed me then everything would have been fine, it was the move to the right when he made contact that was too much. Jon and I had a very calm constructive conversation later and I would like to believe he will be a little more careful next time but I don't think that a pass like that is acceptable.
Paul Onley
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Re: T14 Crash @ RA, Sunday Race #6 (MWSS)
« Reply #31 on: July 09, 2008, 08:25:10 PM »
Wow ok... let me get the straight...

Passing someone on the inside on the brakes is not cool because block passing is too aggressive
Passing someone on the inside when they take a wider line is not cool because stuff passing is too aggressive
Passing someone on the outside on the brakes and then turning in in front of them is not cool because chopping off their front wheel is too aggressive
Passing someone on the outside midcorner is not cool because it forces them to roll off, takes away their drive and is too aggressive
Overall what you're saying is fine, and it's what racing is all about.

The difference comes in whether you put both of you at risk when you use a passing maneuver that's going to bring you into hard contact if the other rider doesn't see you and change their line appropriately, like cutting (not just cutting across) someone's wheel or passing on the inside using a line that puts you right on top of the other rider at the apex.  I don't know of too many people who get stood up at the apex and think of it as a clean race pass.  And maybe I'm misjudging the relative speeds, but to close on someone with enough speed differential to get things cartwheeling like they did seems like something other than aggressive racing.

I've got no issues with close racing and some aggressive leaning on riders (who know one another's race styles), and I've had a couple unintentional contacts in the past myself.  But wreckless aggression as a recurring theme that draws comments and ends with something like this is just unfortunate and unneccesary.

I like Ben's description, and would think clean (no italics) probably does it midpack in a MW race or in a loose 2-rider dice for 3rd in a LW race

But hey, I'm just a slow old guy with too big of a collection of plates and screws in me to have any remaining sense of relativity.
Dan Swenson
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Farmboy

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Re: T14 Crash @ RA, Sunday Race #6 (MWSS)
« Reply #32 on: July 09, 2008, 08:53:35 PM »
I have no problem with agressive passes, Jon took my line away a couple times at MAM and I never even gave it a second thought. At RA last weekend however he  came up next to me on the inside on the brakes into 6, He says he thought he was past me (and I believe he thought he was). He then moved over on me to get to the outside to start his turn. I was on the brakes with my rear wheel very light if not off the ground, I couldn't stop any harder and all I had to my right was grass. When he bumped me it put me into a rather nasty weave. If he had simply turned in fron the line he was on when he passed me then everything would have been fine, it was the move to the right when he made contact that was too much. Jon and I had a very calm constructive conversation later and I would like to believe he will be a little more careful next time but I don't think that a pass like that is acceptable.

Fair enough.

I paid for a Shadow Video @ BHF last fall, and I noticed that a couple of times during the session, I'd outbrake another rider into a corner at what I thought was a fast enough pace, only to then move over into their line (rather a bit too close) to set up for the entry. Never realized it until I saw myself on the vid. Oh well. Still, it's more fun to be dicing it out than riding around alone...

Oh, and my post wasn't directed at you, Paul. Just had to butt in..
« Last Edit: July 09, 2008, 08:55:20 PM by Farmboy »
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HAWK

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Re: T14 Crash @ RA, Sunday Race #6 (MWSS)
« Reply #33 on: July 09, 2008, 09:10:17 PM »
Fair enough.

I paid for a Shadow Video @ BHF last fall, and I noticed that a couple of times during the session, I'd outbrake another rider into a corner at what I thought was a fast enough pace, only to then move over into their line (rather a bit too close) to set up for the entry. Never realized it until I saw myself on the vid. Oh well. Still, it's more fun to be dicing it out than riding around alone...


And that is exactly why I talked to Jon, when it happened I figured he didn't know I was still there. Sometimes we just don't know how close things get so like I said, I want to believe that Jon will take our conversation to heart and not squeeze someone off the track. I think Jon and I are good with how things were left.
Paul Onley
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Re: T14 Crash @ RA, Sunday Race #6 (MWSS)
« Reply #34 on: July 09, 2008, 09:12:40 PM »
Ben, just one question. How much contact do you consider acceptable? Up front at a regional club race?

In my opinion it depends on where you are on the track and the corner. Lets say we are at blackhawk, going into the kink before the carousel is not a good time to put a knee or elbow or upper fairing under someone. However, at a track like road america, I have no problem putting an elbow or knee or bodywork out on the way into five to let the guy know im taking that spot, i know he will be able to run an outside line through that corner, and if it goes bad for him he will get stuck on the rumble strips and ill put some space on him and he wont be much worse for the wear. And if it really goes bad for him and he gets scared or cant make the corner by his own choice then he has plenty of run off. Last year exiting T5 at road atlanta I actually put my head on a competitors front number plate as he tried to drive me out of the corner, the goal being to spook him juts enough to close the throttle for the instant i needed to get over the wheelie hill first, which gauranteed the drive onto the back straight and hopefully the win. Ive been hit going into plenty of corners and it has never really bothered me much, coming from the dirt that stuff just doesnt get in my head. Hell this past weekend a guy pulled a dive bomb on me on the way into canada corner then just before the apex as I started to pitch it in late he decided he couldnt make the corner, stood it up and took my front axle for a ride on his swingarm. was it a sketchy move? hell yeah, was it unnecesary being the first practice session of the day? sure. But all in all im at the race track running as hard as I can, and if a guy gets past me, he gets past me no matter how he did it, as long as im not on the ground im ok, and if I am then it sucks, but ill get over it. If you have a problem with the way a guy is riding talk to him at the track and you will get a much better response. When I started racing I was on a slow bike, so I did alot of late late brake passing, all in all it was a little too aggressive. My now good buddy Guy Bartz came over and jumped my shit, while I was pissed about it for a while I realized he was probably right and changed the way I ride because of it. My number one rule on the track is that if im going to pull an asshole pass, really stuff someone, or do something of the sort and its not the last lap, I had better be able to get away from them, as in check out and not have to deal with them again. Otherwise your just being a dick pulling stuff pass after stuff pass for a whole race.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2008, 09:15:42 PM by benprobst »
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Re: T14 Crash @ RA, Sunday Race #6 (MWSS)
« Reply #35 on: July 09, 2008, 09:33:53 PM »
Well, I thought we were racing, but I guess I was wrong. I didn't realize we were trying to follow NESBA's Beginner group passing rules. I'd like to be that nice, but not everyone has the benefit of an extra 25hp over their competition to keep the passing on the straights.

Just noticed this, so for the record I don't think that running a top 4 overall lightweight pace at your middleweight track times represents a pace that would have passing only on the straights.  So on my occassion to dice with you when I was dog-shit tired at the end of the day and knew I was way off the pace I decided to not have you stand me up at the apex a third time and let you stay ahead on the straights.  

But, the bike's for sale and that 25hp edge could be all yours for the right price.
Dan Swenson
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JonGu

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Re: T14 Crash @ RA, Sunday Race #6 (MWSS)
« Reply #36 on: July 09, 2008, 10:00:01 PM »
Paul definitely has something to be upset about for that pass and I acknowledge that and am glad he came to me and talked about it the way he did, very cool and good of him. From his perspective, I moved over on him while passing on the inside of 6. From my perspective, I passed him on the exit of turn 5 and went to turn in for 6 and felt a hit on my rear. I actually thought to myself "wtf, that dude is outta control, why would he bump me like that after I already got him." I didn't realize until he talked to me that I didn't complete the pass out of 5 and that we were actually going up the hill side by side when I moved over on him. I didn't see Paul because I was slightly ahead and already looking at the corner entrance and realize now that I should have paid more attention before changing my line. I'd like to think it's a racing incident and not just reckless riding, but I'm glad I got talked to about it and did learn something from it.

As for the cartwheeling incident well... Aaron and I also talked about it and it seems like it was another unfortunate racing incident. He didn't just brake a little early, he told me that he accidentally downshifted and that's why he slowed down so early. In the video he was actually pulling me when you hear his bike all of a sudden start to rev high. I was racing Aaron all weekend (the last race he beat me by like 3 feet, and even slapped my leg on the straight once :) ) and know pretty well where he brakes for that corner so I felt quite confident following him in, but then we ended up colliding. It's definitely not his fault and I'm not trying to say that it's not my fault either, I mean there are so many things I could have done differently (like try to take him on the brakes on the inside for example)

And as for me and Dan with the passes at MAM, I never thought they were too aggressive but can see how you might have been upset about it. I'll just say this... the few times I passed you and stood you up, there was about 3-4 feet of space inbetween us, on the borderline of being too close, but if you didn't expect it I can see why it spooked ya. As for why I passed there instead of on the brakes earlier well... you pulled such a huge freaking gap on the straights that it took me over half a lap to make it back up every time. That bike is sweet! (wishing I could afford it and that it wasn't carbed) I was hoping to get by you - knowing that you would repass me on the straights, but that I'd close the gap enough that I might be able to outbrake you earlier in the lap instead of at turn 10. But if you had taken tighter more defensive lines instead of swooping way out wide then there is no way I could have even attempted to go up the inside of ya in the right hand part of that chicane.

I actually hate that the passes upset ya and you talking to me made me think long and hard - enough that I ended up settling for a couple of crappy middleweight finishes the next round because I didn't wanna piss someone else off by stuffing them even though they were going a full second slower than me. I realized I was shooting myself in the foot though by doing that and that the goals of winning an overall regional championship and riding nice and not pissing off anyone are incompatible goals.

As for how close I feel is comfortable in a pass... ask Jay Smith. On the last lap of a LW race, I stuffed him in the bus stop and then one corner later he divebombed me on the inside of turn 5 at Blackhawk and freaked the shit outta me but instead of standing up, I rested my elbow on his knee and fairing while we went through that corner. This is after 2 or 3 laps of constant position changes. He won because I just couldn't safely pass him on the last corner. The next time we saw each other we agreed that it was the best fucking race we've ever experienced and coolest thing in the world and that we were both cool with each other.

Actually, at this point I'm not even sure what the point of this post is anymore. I'm just bored and should probably stay away from the keyboard before I piss off anyone else lol
Jon Gu
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Re: T14 Crash @ RA, Sunday Race #6 (MWSS)
« Reply #37 on: July 09, 2008, 10:07:58 PM »
Just noticed this, so for the record I don't think that running a top 4 overall lightweight pace at your middleweight track times represents a pace that would have passing only on the straights.  So on my occassion to dice with you when I was dog-shit tired at the end of the day and knew I was way off the pace I decided to not have you stand me up at the apex a third time and let you stay ahead on the straights. 

But, the bike's for sale and that 25hp edge could be all yours for the right price.

lol sorry for the sarcasm and the cheap jab, it was a bit out of line and :jerkoff: douchebaggy (is that a real word?) of me.

Like I said in my post above, I'm going for overall regional champ and I'm learning that winning that title doesn't mean riding faster than everyone else. It's more of an endurance race and the winner is the guy who survives the most number of races and manages to finish reasonably well. That means that I can't be a bonehead and pull too many idiot maneuvers so I do try to take in and learn a little bit from every situation. Reading all these posts is certainly helping me out  :thumb:
Jon Gu
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d!ll

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Re: T14 Crash @ RA, Sunday Race #6 (MWSS)
« Reply #38 on: July 09, 2008, 10:10:43 PM »
Quote
but not everyone has the benefit of an extra 25hp over their competition to keep the passing on the straights.

Ahh you might want to talk to Team Appel about this they know this trick about using a 750 as a....  :kicknuts:
« Last Edit: July 09, 2008, 10:13:17 PM by d!ll »
CCS TrackAddix GP  # 76 AM   -Keep the smites a'comin' I have decided to chase Rick in the overall [expert] championship (and I got a goddamn long way to go...)

Farmboy

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Re: T14 Crash @ RA, Sunday Race #6 (MWSS)
« Reply #39 on: July 09, 2008, 10:13:00 PM »

As for how close I feel is comfortable in a pass... ask Jay Smith. On the last lap of a LW race, I stuffed him in the bus stop and then one corner later he divebombed me on the inside of turn 5 at Blackhawk and freaked the shit outta me but instead of standing up, I rested my elbow on his knee and fairing while we went through that corner. This is after 2 or 3 laps of constant position changes. He won because I just couldn't safely pass him on the last corner. The next time we saw each other we agreed that it was the best fucking race we've ever experienced and coolest thing in the world and that we were both cool with each other.

Actually, at this point I'm not even sure what the point of this post is anymore. I'm just bored and should probably stay away from the keyboard before I piss off anyone else lol

Sounds awesome, and definitely sounds like good racing to me.

FYI, staying away from the keyboard is incompatible with recuperation. You may as well piss people off in here, too; you're already one of the most, if not THE most, polarizing riders this year..
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JonGu

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Re: T14 Crash @ RA, Sunday Race #6 (MWSS)
« Reply #40 on: July 09, 2008, 10:21:25 PM »
Ahh you might want to talk to Team Appel about this they know this trick about ....  :kicknuts:

Doh! hahaha I don't want to turn this into a commentary on the status of LW racing, but why why why do people spend so much money on a freaking SV motor? It's a freaking commuter bike for gods sake, and LW racing is suppose to be a cheap entry into the sport! As it stands, it costs more to own a competitive LW bike than it does to own a competitive MW bike, and that is just ridiculous to me. Seriously, how many motors has Guy, Hawk, Hernan, Ed Key or Joel Spalding blown? And how many has Erik Rodriguez blown? I'll take my bone stock SV motor w/ nothing but a power commander and full pipe any day even if it means I'll never even make top 5 in an expert LW race. That's the same motor that I ran for a full 25 minute GT race with no coolant - DOH! not good for overall power for sure, especially when I can't even stay in touch with Roy's bone stock 1st gen bike!
Jon Gu
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JonGu

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Re: T14 Crash @ RA, Sunday Race #6 (MWSS)
« Reply #41 on: July 09, 2008, 10:27:48 PM »
FYI, staying away from the keyboard is incompatible with recuperation. You may as well piss people off in here, too; you're already one of the most, if not THE most, polarizing riders this year..

It's an honor lol... it seems to be a recurring theme with the NESBA-aligned riders who go for overall championships. Let's see... Marshall pissed off plenty of people in 06, Dustin caused quite a stir in 07, and now I'm stirring the pot in 08. I'm not putting myself in their category though, I'm slow and have to sandbag my way to the top by running LW races for championship points :P
Jon Gu
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Re: T14 Crash @ RA, Sunday Race #6 (MWSS)
« Reply #42 on: July 09, 2008, 10:35:21 PM »
I'm slow and have to sandbag my way to the top by running LW races for championship points :P
Doh! hahaha I don't want to turn this into a commentary on the status of LW racing, but why why why do people spend so much money on a freaking SV motor? It's a freaking commuter bike for gods sake, and LW racing is suppose to be a cheap entry into the sport! As it stands, it costs more to own a competitive LW bike than it does to own a competitive MW bike, and that is just ridiculous to me. Seriously, how many motors has Guy, Hawk, Hernan, Ed Key or Joel Spalding blown? And how many has Erik Rodriguez blown? I'll take my bone stock SV motor w/ nothing but a power commander and full pipe any day even if it means I'll never even make top 5 in an expert LW race.
Good plan, Jon.....get in good with the other classes by pissing off the LW guys :err:


Sounds like Kyle and I missed all the fun at RA...

Heal up quickly everyone and we will hopefully see you soon!!!

BTW...let us know what ya'all need as you put your bikes back together :biggrin:
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JonGu

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Re: T14 Crash @ RA, Sunday Race #6 (MWSS)
« Reply #43 on: July 09, 2008, 10:40:11 PM »
Oh no. No no no... you guys with your pretty paint and your fancy stickers... that R6 was the best looking bike I ever owned and look how quickly it turned to hell. From now on its primer bikes with yellow duct tape number plates for me  :lmao:
Jon Gu
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Re: T14 Crash @ RA, Sunday Race #6 (MWSS)
« Reply #44 on: July 09, 2008, 10:47:40 PM »
Oh no. No no no... you guys with your pretty paint and your fancy stickers... that R6 was the best looking bike I ever owned and look how quickly it turned to hell. From now on its primer bikes with yellow duct tape number plates for me  :lmao:

Nahh...you're lookin' at all wrong....

A clean, sharp bike INSPIRES confidence.... :thumb:



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